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Clowney, then what?

Marshall said:
The greatest thing which we can't speak of is intelligence as in football intelligence. The Linebacker has to recognize whether it's a run or pass quickly and adjust. I don't think many believe Clowney has this football instinct, but are afraid to say it because it might not be PC to say a black player lacks intelligence of any kind. Unfortunately, it's leftover eggshells from a more racist time.
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I don't know where you're going with this. But, Crennel had Tamba Hali in KC. Hali was strictly a pass rusher and excelled in Crennel's defense. No reason Clowney couldn't do the same.
 
Texecutioner said:
This is the exact kind of joke material that has had me saying that Clowney will be the most overhyped prospect of all time. Calling this guy the best since Bruce Smith? Lol! The news needs more stuff to talk about.
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I don't get the hype either. I think most media people are just past the point of no return. They spent the last 18 months hyping the guy up as the greatest talent of this generation and don't want to backtrack after his sub-par season. He had a great Combine, but it's been hyped up as being almost god-like. I wasn't really all that wowed to be honest. I just don't see it. Great talent, but not a generational talent.
 
WolverineFan said:
I don't get the hype either. I think most media people are just past the point of no return. They spent the last 18 months hyping the guy up as the greatest talent of this generation and don't want to backtrack after his sub-par season. He had a great Combine, but it's been hyped up as being almost god-like. I wasn't really all that wowed to be honest. I just don't see it. Great talent, but not a generational talent.
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Yeah, it's like they totally forgot about all of these other guys at his position every other year that are high picks. Some prosper and some become busts. Probably around a 50/50 ratio honestly. I understand a lot of the hype that Clowney had after his Junior season. He looked like a monster. To come back with all eyes watching and to answer with such a lackluster season is pretty questionable though. You have to wonder if the player bought into his own hype to early? That is a bad problem that happens to a lot of athletes when things come to easy for them to early. Once Clowney found a ton of double teams he didn't seem to find ways to counter it or wasn't effective in fighting through it. I would worry about his drive and his desire if he already feels that his skills are to good to be stopped without constant education at the position and the different schemes he has to operate.
 
Texecutioner said:
This is the exact kind of joke material that has had me saying that Clowney will be the most overhyped prospect of all time. Calling this guy the best since Bruce Smith? Lol! The news needs more stuff to talk about.
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The best "prospect" since Bruce Smith. Meaning that he carries the highest draft grade since 1985. Look back at the defensive players since then who have gone #1 or #2. You can make a case that Peppers was as highly rated as Clowney. But, that's about it. And I'm not saying that he will become better than anyone on this list (or won't for that matter). Just that I agree with Pauline's assessment of Clowney entering the draft.

Is Clowney "over-hyped"? Probably. There are more guys at the very top of the draft that fail to reach expectations than there are All Pros and HOFers. But if we're talking about expectations, Clowney's ceiling is as high or higher than than any non-QB prospect in a very long time.
 
Lucky said:
The best "prospect" since Bruce Smith. Meaning that he carries the highest draft grade since 1985. Look back at the defensive players since then who have gone #1 or #2. You can make a case that Peppers was as highly rated as Clowney. But, that's about it. And I'm not saying that he will become better than anyone on this list (or won't for that matter). Just that I agree with Pauline's assessment of Clowney entering the draft.

Is Clowney "over-hyped"? Probably. There are more guys at the very top of the draft that fail to reach expectations than there are All Pros and HOFers. But if we're talking about expectations, Clowney's ceiling is as high or higher than than any non-QB prospect in a very long time.
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Best prospect is a difficult to assess IMO. Highly rated certainly. But I think your list is more an indictment of what is highly rated. Only 1 HOF guy on there but if you look at a shorter time period of 1st round picks 1985-2005 - Link - you've got 7 more HoF guys already in and at least 5 more who are dead on locks to get in with another 5-7 who are likely. That looks like a lot of players whose ceiling wasn't properly evaluated (and position bias).
 
infantrycak said:
That looks like a lot of players whose ceiling wasn't properly evaluated (and position bias).
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Yes, absolutely. If everyone knew what player Ray Lewis would become prior to the 1996 draft, he would have been #1 overall. But, he went #26. 11 defenders were taken in front of him. St. Louis, Tampa Bay, and Detroit passed on Lewis twice. He wasn't properly evaluated.

But what I think Pauline is referring to is only the pre-draft evaluation. I don't think he's saying that Clowney will be the best NFL defensive player since Bruce Smith. Bruce Smith isn't even the best defensive player since Bruce Smith came into the league. Just that no one has been thought of as highly since Bruce Smith as Clowney is now.
 
Lucky said:
I don't know where you're going with this. But, Crennel had Tamba Hali in KC. Hali was strictly a pass rusher and excelled in Crennel's defense. No reason Clowney couldn't do the same.
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I'm reaching for a reason someone with Clowney's skills has been dismissed as a LB. It is the only thing I can come up with.
 
Re the Clowney comparisons to Bruce Smith, I was listening to former NFL/Texans DT Seth Payne on 610 Radio and he said Smith, who Payne played against while in the league, was lethargic and unimpressive during much of the first couple seasons of his NFL career.
 
IDEXAN said:
Re the Clowney comparisons to Bruce Smith, I was listening to former NFL/Texans DT Seth Payne on 610 Radio and he said Smith, who Payne played against while in the league, was lethargic and unimpressive during much of the first couple seasons of his NFL career.
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Watched from the sideline, not played against since they were both DL.

1st year maybe unimpressive. Not his second with 15 sacks (2 off of league lead) and 3 FF.
 
Texecutioner said:
This is the exact kind of joke material that has had me saying that Clowney will be the most overhyped prospect of all time. Calling this guy the best since Bruce Smith? Lol! The news needs more stuff to talk about.
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Yes the Clowney HYPE is beginning to reach the levels of the Reggie Bush HYPE. No argument here.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Ready For Teddy or Down With The Clown?

By Mike Kerns @Zepp1978 on Mar 4 2014, 1:06p 23
With every Ryan Mallett and Brock Osweiler rumor, I'm resigning myself to the fact that taking Teddy number one is more and more unlikely. If that does indeed come to fruition, any player other than Clowney at number one is just this franchise proving that it won't be satisfied until they're the Browns, in my opinion.

Teddy or Clowney. Don't overthink it, Texans.
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Interesting when you think about how many draft picks the Browns have used on QBs in the last 10 years.
 
Marshall said:
The greatest thing which we can't speak of is intelligence as in football intelligence. The Linebacker has to recognize whether it's a run or pass quickly and adjust. I don't think many believe Clowney has this football instinct, but are afraid to say it because it might not be PC to say a black player lacks intelligence of any kind. Unfortunately, it's leftover eggshells from a more racist time.
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As a DE, that decision boils down to getting the RB, or continuing to the QB. I've been saying that's Clowney's biggest asset. I think he diagnoses & finds the ball quicker than most, then explodes into the ball carrier, being the QB or the RB.

As a LB concerns about pass coverage come into play. Does he attack the ball & abandon his pass coverage responsibility, or does he stay true to his responsibilities.


Marshall said:
But perhaps I'm wrong. Reading between the lines is an art and I'm not the artist in the family. But it's the only reason I can think of that there is hesitation with playing him at LB. Just rushing the passer is quite easy if you have the tools. LBs and DBs are a different matter.
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I think the hesitation is that we don't see the traits that lead to a successful transition to a conventional LB, especially as it relates to pass coverage responsibilities..... & that extra skill set (that we don't believe he has) makes it easier to find "similar" prospects lower in the draft.

As a DE, there isn't another player close to the prospect that is JaDaveon Clowney, as a LB... there are several.
 
Texian said:
Yes the Clowney HYPE is beginning to reach the levels of the Reggie Bush HYPE. No argument here.
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Don't like your pot smokers much? Not that its been proven in any way that Clowney is a pot smoker.

Guess who else was a pot smoker at 21 yrs old. Give me Hakeem Olajuwon for 500 Alex. LT did coke during halftime of game. Guess you wouldn't want him either. That doesn't even mention the 70's under Landry/80's JJ's Cowboys. Nah the Texans couldn't use Thomas Henderson/Micheal Irvin/Tuenieu SP? etc.... on this team.

Face it many great football players have character flaws. Guess which team had the most drug suspensions in the NFL last yr? Your SB championship Seattle Seahawks. Until the Texans learn to accept the fact that they need to draft the best players possible regardless of minor character flaws. They will continue to be a nice little team. But never a true SB contender.
 
Lucky said:
...But what I think Pauline is referring to is only the pre-draft evaluation. I don't think he's saying that Clowney will be the best NFL defensive player since Bruce Smith. Bruce Smith isn't even the best defensive player since Bruce Smith came into the league. Just that no one has been thought of as highly since Bruce Smith as Clowney is now.
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Correct, not a lot of current guys have been in the game long enough to recall and compare how these guys were viewed as prospects. Here's another one, a 30+ year NFL scout:
"He has an opportunity to be one of the all-time greats at his position," Gabriel told USA TODAY Sports on Monday, shortly after watching Clowney's impressive workout at the NFL scouting combine in Indianapolis.

"He's going to get drafted high based on the pure talent. There's no question about that, and chances are he's going to be a good player. But to me, there's also a bust factor, and the bust factor is he didn't play worth a (expletive) this year."

"He has that talent to totally dominate a game at any given time. Now you go into this year, you didn't see him dominate at all," Gabriel said of Clowney, who finished last season with three sacks and 40 tackles (11½ for loss) in 11 games, missing two others because of injuries.

"People are making excuses for him, saying that, 'Oh, he was double-teamed. He was triple-teamed.' Do you think every offense in the National Football League didn't set their game plan to stop Lawrence Taylor? Yet they never did it.

"When you have that much talent, you find a way to get it done."

"The definition of a defensive lineman is he's a thug," Gabriel said. "You're asking him to win 60 street fights in the course of a game. He's got to be a tough guy. They're a little different birds. But you want to see the effort. I didn't see the effort this year, so that's the question mark.

"People say, 'Well, he was playing to protect himself,' and that very well may be true. But who's to say he's not going to do that once he gets into the NFL level?"
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Gabriel has Clowney #1 on his board. Bigger question on Clowney for me is the bolded above -- does he have that streetfighter thug mentality? Can you win trench battles without that?


steelbtexan said:
Don't like your pot smokers much? Not that its been proven in any way that Clowney is a pot smoker.
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I haven't read anything about marijuana one way or the other -- not that that should disqualify him from the NFL -- but I have read he's not into alcohol.

Clowney did get a couple of speeding tickets, though, so there's that...
 
steelbtexan said:
Don't like your pot smokers much? Not that its been proven in any way that Clowney is a pot smoker.

Guess who else was a pot smoker at 21 yrs old. Give me Hakeem Olajuwon for 500 Alex. LT did coke during halftime of game. Guess you wouldn't want him either. That doesn't even mention the 70's under Landry/80's JJ's Cowboys. Nah the Texans couldn't use Thomas Henderson/Micheal Irvin/Tuenieu SP? etc.... on this team.

Face it many great football players have character flaws. Guess which team had the most drug suspensions in the NFL last yr? Your SB championship Seattle Seahawks. Until the Texans learn to accept the fact that they need to draft the best players possible regardless of minor character flaws. They will continue to be a nice little team. But never a true SB contender.
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Guilty as charged. I do admit most of my evaluations are based on suspensions. I did parse every word from the Combine. The eyes, lazy speech, admittedly has no goals and personality and characteristics suggest that Clowney could be a heavy frequent drug user. Even more important, the personality, conversations and mannerism brings into question his FOOTBALL IQ. Drug use could just be a by product. Would like to know more, such as did he go to class, did he show initiative and workout, did he spend time in the film room, did he study opponents. You would think the Texans would do their due diligence and have all the answers. After the Sam Montgomery fiasco, this is not a given.

Could Clowney be LT, or any of the other names you compared to? Yes he could. Could Clowney also be Vince Young or Aundray Bruce? Yes he could. One thing is for certain, Clowney has raised enough red flags that becoming Young and Bruce are still part of the discussion. Speaking of Jimmy Johnson, in this case I might yield to Coach Johnson and his very own words, "Hit me in the head with a hammer if I ever try to take a DUMB PLAYER."
 
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I started grading prospects on my own in 2006. Since then I've graded two defensive players higher than I grade Clowney.

2007 - Patrick Willis - I realize that this is far from the consensus, but I graded Willis higher than I grade Clowney. If the rookie wage scale had been in effect he would have been the #1 pick. But nobody wanted to spend that kind of money on a LB.

2010 - Ndamukong Suh - Best defensive prospect I've graded. And I will go out on a limb and say that many people had Suh graded higher than they have Clowney.

So there's two in just the eight years that I've been doing this. I'm sure someone with more experience could find someone else. I would imagine Peppers was rated higher by some, but I wasn't doing draft stuff at that time so I can't be sure.
 
bah007 said:
I started grading prospects on my own in 2006. Since then I've graded two defensive players higher than I grade Clowney.

2007 - Patrick Willis - I realize that this is far from the consensus, but I graded Willis higher than I grade Clowney. If the rookie wage scale had been in effect he would have been the #1 pick. But nobody wanted to spend that kind of money on a LB.

2010 - Ndamukong Suh - Best defensive prospect I've graded. And I will go out on a limb and say that many people had Suh graded higher than they have Clowney.

So there's two in just the eight years that I've been doing this. I'm sure someone with more experience could find someone else. I would imagine Peppers was rated higher by some, but I wasn't doing draft stuff at that time so I can't be sure.
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I have Clowney and Suh rated about the same. I graded Patrick Peterson, Eric Berry, Mario Williams, Sean Taylor, and Julius Peppers all higher than Clowney. And that's not a knock on Clowney. All of those guys are/were among the best at their respective positions in the NFL. I just see through the hype screen that has been created here (just like with Reggie Bush).

He's graded as my best defensive prospect in this draft, but I can see the flaws in the player that so many are hyping up as the best talent of this generation. He's not. To me, Andrew Luck is the greatest prospect of this generation and it's not even close.
 
Texian said:
...Clowney could be a heavy frequent drug user...
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:spit:

Are you Bortle's mother or something? Financial stake in his future? Or do you just make up isht so you can be "right" on the internet?

Bortles probably said "uhh" or "ummm" over 100 times in his Combine presser -- heavy drug user, no doubt.
nod.gif
no.gif~original
sheesh
 
Playoffs said:
:spit:

Are you Bortle's mother or something? Financial stake in his future? Or do you just make up isht so you can be "right" on the internet?

Bortles probably said "uhh" or "ummm" over 100 times in his Combine presser -- heavy drug user, no doubt.
nod.gif
no.gif~original
sheesh
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1. The name Bortles was never mentioned, that's your own fascination not mine.

2. You clearly missed the point, the mention of drugs was only a response to SB Q.

3. THE POINT, as best described by Jimmy Johnson, Hit me in the head with a hammer if I ever try to take a DUMB PLAYER."

as to your comments about isht, maybe you should ufst and get back to your Copy & Paste. :)
 
Playoffs said:
Preserving this little nugget of gold... or is it pyrite?
laugh-1.gif
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Somehow, someway and I don't know how, it was definitely through no efforts on my part, I ended up living rent free inside your head. I think that this in large part applies to the message in my signature.
 
infantrycak said:
Watched from the sideline, not played against since they were both DL.

1st year maybe unimpressive. Not his second with 15 sacks (2 off of league lead) and 3 FF.
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That's what Payne said, but maybe he overstated Smith's slow start in the league if he really did struggle only during his rookie year.
But thanks for that insight, that gem of wisdom explaining that defensive lineman on opposing teams don't appear on the los against each other at the same time.
 
Texian said:
Yes the Clowney HYPE is beginning to reach the levels of the Reggie Bush HYPE. No argument here.
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Hardly, unless you totally forgot those endless replays of Bush's long TD run vs Fresno State (or was it San Jose State?). I think they even had a song that accompaned the play on ESPN, which is owned by LA-based and USC fan Disney Inc. People back then valued a great pass-rusher just as they do now, but can't even remember why Bush was so highly valued in those days ?
 
IDEXAN said:
Hardly, unless you totally forgot those endless replays of Bush's long TD run vs Fresno State (or was it San Jose State?). I think they even had a song that accompaned the play on ESPN, which is owned by LA-based and USC fan Disney Inc.
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Maybe because Bush had highlight plays his last college year. :kitten:
 
infantrycak said:
Maybe because Bush had highlight plays his last college year. :kitten:
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Yea, but every 15 minutes, again, again, again, and again to total ad nauseam !
But it was effective as it got Bush the Heisman. Fortunately Casserly saw thru it
all and steered the Texans & their 1.1 elsewhere.
 
IDEXAN said:
Yea, but every 15 minutes, again, again, again, and again to total ad nauseam !
But it was effective as it got Bush the Heisman. Fortunately Casserly saw thru it
all and steered the Texans & their 1.1 elsewhere.
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could say same for Manziel. his overwhelming run to Heisman even though he didn't lead Texas A&M to a Rose Bowl or BCS game. ESPN is in love with him, a lot of Texan fans are in love with him, he's already signed a big sponsorship deal Johnny legend grows & media manufactures next darling :kitten:
 
steelbtexan said:
Who is at fault for Schaub's contract?
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Hint: He don't work here anymore. That, I bet, was a GK, Bob McNair call. No way to prove it but that's my gut. Was Rick Smith's name on it? Sure, but you've got to give the man credit for the way it was structured. The team will get out of it relatively unscathed. It's no secret you've got no love for the GM but you can't deny that he penned it in such a way that there's not that much sting to let him walk.

I'm SURE you disagree but that's my take on it, as well as a few others. (Not that I need validation for my point of view)
 
...

Jayson Braddock ‏@JaysonBraddock Mar 6

Talk about Rex Ryan being at Clemson's pro day today, reminds me of 2 years ago when he was at SC's. Said a freshman would be #1 if eligible
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Jayson Braddock ‏@JaysonBraddock Mar 6

The freshman that Rex Ryan was talking about two years ago was Jadeveon Clowney, obviously.
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drs23 said:
Hint: He don't work here anymore. That, I bet, was a GK, Bob McNair call. No way to prove it but that's my gut. Was Rick Smith's name on it? Sure, but you've got to give the man credit for the way it was structured. The team will get out of it relatively unscathed. It's no secret you've got no love for the GM but you can't deny that he penned it in such a way that there's not that much sting to let him walk.

I'm SURE you disagree but that's my take on it, as well as a few others. (Not that I need validation for my point of view)
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ept_sports_nfl_experts-646570627-1253219133.jpg
 
Q: People are saying Jadeveon Clowney is more a traditional 4-3 DE and not a good fit in Houston... do you see him as a fit or is the scheme an issue for the Texans?

Tony Pauline: "I'm hearing the exact opposite, and this is something I reported from the Combine. The Texans are looking at Clowney as a potential good fit at the 2-gap end spot down the road in Romeo Crennel's more traditional 3-4. The feeling is is Clowney's size, growth potential, and strength as well -- because he is a strong guy and has the ability to clog gaps and occupy blockers -- would make him a very good fit in Crennel's 3-4/2 gap system. His athleticism, the ability to take on blockers... I'm hearing that Clowney is a solid fit."
 
Playoffs said:
Q: People are saying Jadeveon Clowney is more a traditional 4-3 DE and not a good fit in Houston... do you see him as a fit or is the scheme an issue for the Texans?

Tony Pauline: "I'm hearing the exact opposite, and this is something I reported from the Combine. The Texans are looking at Clowney as a potential good fit at the 2-gap end spot down the road in Romeo Crennel's more traditional 3-4. The feeling is is Clowney's size, growth potential, and strength as well -- because he is a strong guy and has the ability to clog gaps and occupy blockers -- would make him a very good fit in Crennel's 3-4/2 gap system. His athleticism, the ability to take on blockers... I'm hearing that Clowney is a solid fit."
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That's the kind of thing that makes me think Pauline is an id!ot more than he has contacts. Clowney is so far away from what Crennel has used in the past AND that eliminates his biggest strength of quick initial step it just makes zero sense.

295 lbs is light for Crennel. IOW Clowney is 30 lbs lighter than a light 3-4 DE for Crennel. He's 40-50 lbs under most of Crennel's 3-4 DEs.
 
beerlover said:
could say same for Manziel. his overwhelming run to Heisman even though he didn't lead Texas A&M to a Rose Bowl or BCS game. ESPN is in love with him, a lot of Texan fans are in love with him, he's already signed a big sponsorship deal Johnny legend grows & media manufactures next darling :kitten:
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I'm confused here.

Are you suggesting that Manziel didn't deserve the Heisman? He didn't lead Texas A&M to a BCS game? What would you call that win he had against Oklahoma last season? And it's not like his team was losing games this year because of Manziel's awful play where he let down a great defense. He carried his team all season this year and put up a ton of points pretty much duplicating his stats of last year. He earned every bit of the hype and praise he got. It's just that his skill set combined with his lack of size may not translate well to the NFL.
 
Texecutioner said:
I'm confused here.

Are you suggesting that Manziel didn't deserve the Heisman? He didn't lead Texas A&M to a BCS game? What would you call that win he had against Oklahoma last season? And it's not like his team was losing games this year because of Manziel's awful play where he let down a great defense. He carried his team all season this year and put up a ton of points pretty much duplicating his stats of last year. He earned every bit of the hype and praise he got. It's just that his skill set combined with his lack of size may not translate well to the NFL.
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let me simplify it for you then, It's all about Johnny, or what can you do for Johnny thanks but no thanks. No love loss here for A&M but that factors in very little anyway, other than they are annoying species to say the least, but fact is he has never won jack ****! Far as he relates to O'Brain & team first, not. In regards to Heisman, no way in HELL he deserved it! Manti Te'o should have won it at least he led his team to the National Championship, but alas just another dumb jock who was exposed & publicly humiliated, but without his play in key situations ND would/should of never been in that game. Far as his his size, I don't give a **** either, just check out Russell Wilson :)

PS: just went out for drinks, as usual, had a killer Belgian Quad, a style I recently brewed & won my own Heisman, now out for another, same skill sets, but more complex & aged, lol
 
beerlover said:
PS: just went out for drinks, as usual, had a killer Belgian Quad, a style I recently brewed & won my own Heisman, now out for another, same skill sets, but more complex & aged, lol
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Had a couple "Imperial Black IPAs" over the weekend, brewed by Uinta Brewing Co. Hoppy, hoppy , hoppy. Damn were they good !
 
drs23 said:
Hint: He don't work here anymore. That, I bet, was a GK, Bob McNair call. No way to prove it but that's my gut. Was Rick Smith's name on it? Sure, but you've got to give the man credit for the way it was structured. The team will get out of it relatively unscathed. It's no secret you've got no love for the GM but you can't deny that he penned it in such a way that there's not that much sting to let him walk.

I'm SURE you disagree but that's my take on it, as well as a few others. (Not that I need validation for my point of view)
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Thanks for the response. I give Slick some credit for the way he structured the contract. I still think 10 mil in dead $$$$ is only doing an avg to below avg job., not a great job.


It's not that I disagree with your point of view. It's just after 7 yrs ? nothing ever sticks to Slick Rick. Including stabbing his good friend and the man that helped him get the job he currently has in the back. (Gary)

Tell me how much respect do you have for a man like that? Not that Slick gives 2 craps what the fans think.
 
Texecutioner said:
I'm confused here.

Are you suggesting that Manziel didn't deserve the Heisman? He didn't lead Texas A&M to a BCS game? What would you call that win he had against Oklahoma last season? And it's not like his team was losing games this year because of Manziel's awful play where he let down a great defense. He carried his team all season this year and put up a ton of points pretty much duplicating his stats of last year. He earned every bit of the hype and praise he got. It's just that his skill set combined with his lack of size may not translate well to the NFL.
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The Cotton Bowl is not a BCS game. Other than that, I agree with everything you said.

Phenomenal college talent, but there are serious questions about how his game translates to the next level.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
This is a must listen to interview with Andre Ware re. #1 pick........he makes a case for Clowney.

"Clowney could have left high school for the NFL." PODCAST
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Nice find C&D. Yea, Andre is very persuasive and I especially liked his explanation of Clowneys decline in stats in his last year at SC and it was even more credible since he saw so much of Clowneys play in person.
 
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