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Clowney, then what?
- Thread starter thunderkyss
- Start date
Blake
MMQB
While I want Teddy 1.1, if you are going to go Clowney at least have a plan to get a top QB like you do.
Blake
MMQB
Carrs game on Saturday scratched him from my book. Besides being a Carr, he didnt do much of anything in the game that inspired me.
I like that, but I'm betting after the interviews a lot of teams are going to be gunning for Manziel. I bet one team will trade up to get him.
Not because of his play on the field, there are QBs with better film than Manziel. But I think they're going to find out that Johnny is one of those few QBs with the desire to be great, the talent to be great, & the moxy to do it.
bah007
Hall of Fame
I really do understand where you're trying to go with this, but I still think this is just a terrible idea.
I damn sure do. That little 'lack of effort' cloud will be hanging over his head forever. What makes you think he will go all out and give 100% on every play once he pockets all that guaranteed money?
'Protect himself from injury' . . what a team player.
Pass. If they can trade down, and he's still available . . maybe. But even then, he would still have that cloud hanging his head. Don't think for one second that they won't be hammering him about it at the combine. He'd better be really good with his answers.
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Hervoyel
BUENO!
I think it seems pretty obvious that if Clowney is the first selection at 1-1 then the majority of posters are focused on finding a QB after that. Some want to see what's there at 2-1, others are interested in trading back up to get somebody or trading picks to get one next year. QB is the obsession and rightfully so.
If you took Matthews at 1-1 it would probably the same way.
Take Bridgewater at 1-1 and then people will start posting more divergent opinions of which way we go after that.
If you took Matthews at 1-1 it would probably the same way.
Take Bridgewater at 1-1 and then people will start posting more divergent opinions of which way we go after that.
bah007
Hall of Fame
Well first, the amount of money that Cutler will command on the open market means that we will have to sacrifice upgrading other positions because we won't be able to afford to. We're going to have to pay him. You realize that right?
Your grudge against anybody who likes Bridgewater is also pretty comical. Keep that up. It's fun.
I'm on record saying that I think Bridgewater is the top QB in this draft but that doesn't make him my dream guy. That would have been Luck. I've also never said anything about "rushing" a rookie QB. But at some point we will have to draft one. And if we draft one this year it will probably be Teddy, and yes, I think it should be.
As for the difference between Bridgewater and Manziel? Well, Bridgewater plays in a pro style offense where he takes traditional snaps and drops. He makes checks at the line of scrimmage. He is a very accurate passer. He is mentally prepared for the NFL game. He has also been extremely successful and productive in an offense with very little talent besides him. He is a plus athlete, but he uses his athleticism as a secondary asset.
Manziel plays in a Texas Tech/Oklahoma St/Houston/West Virgina retread offense that has never produced a NFL talent at QB. You could correctly argue that he is the most talented QB to come from this system but he is still completely unprepared for the mental part of playing QB in the NFL. He doesn't make traditional drops. He doesn't make checks at the line of scrimmage. He relies on his coaches to do literally all the mental things for him. That won't fly in the NFL. He is accurate in the sense that his completion percentage is high, but he is not exceedingly accurate in terms of putting the ball exactly where it needs to be. He relies a lot on the people around him. He has played with a ton of NFL talent surrounding him. He is a plus athlete, but relies on his athleticism too much, using it as a primary asset. He has made plays from the pocket in his career, but the great majority of his impact plays occur because of his feet, not his arm. That won't cut it in the NFL.
John McClain suggested that very same thing in today's Chronicle. I always suspected that you were him. I figured if I waited long enough, you'd eventually give yourself away.
What in the world makes you think another team would be so stupid to make a trade like that?
If need be the Texans can clear almost $40MM this offseason. They most likely won't but if the right player/situation presents itself, they can do it easily without adding any more "significant" holes to the team.
Cutler is not the long term answer. But if Bob is in win now mode it is the most obvious move if Cutler hits the market. If we sign him to a 1 year deal (which I think we will) it would be unlikely that we would draft Bridgewater #1 overall, but it doesn't mean we're ignoring the QB of the future all together.
Only that Bridgewater at 1 overall doesn't fit their plans.
Are you expecting Manziel to go in the first 14 picks? This years second & next years first could be worth as much as 1160 points. This years 14th overall is only 1100 points. Anything higher than the 14th pick & that's a very fair deal.
bah007
Hall of Fame
I agree to an extent. This team has more holes than most fans realize or want to acknowledge. Cutler won't take this team any farther than it has gone before. I would rather rebuild this thing than play around with Cutler or any other mid level QB. I understand that is ultimately up to Bob but I'm hoping he doesn't set us back even further by pretending that a FA QB is going to take us anywhere.
I would be okay with Cutler for one year. But if I'm him or his agent, I'm not signing a one year deal.
If our new staff truly does their homework and decides that our future QB isn't in this draft, then I will trust them. But I fear Bob's "win now" plan will leave us stuck in 8-8 no man's land for a few years.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I'm expecting Bridgewater, Manziel, and Bortles to go in the top 10, personally.
And I'm expecting Hundley, Carr, and Boyd to go later in the 1st or early in the 2nd.
But that could all change after the Combine.
John McClain suggested that very same thing in today's Chronicle. I always suspected that you were him. I figured if I waited long enough, you'd eventually give yourself away.
What in the world makes you think another team would be so stupid to make a trade like that?
Well that would be the first thing me and Mcflame ever agreed on.
What is stupid about trading a pick in the teens for the first pick in the second round and and a future first? Of course I beleive manzel will probably go top 8 so yeh if that's the case it would take more.
bah007
Hall of Fame
For the sake of the QB discussion about who will go and where, here is my best guess. I posted this in the Jake Matthews thread but it is useful here too, I think.
Bridgewater - Top 3
Bortles - Between 3-15
Mettenberger - Between 10-25
Carr - Between 10-35
Manziel - Between 15-40
McCarron - Between 30-45
Hundley - I think he goes back to school. But I think he would go in the top half of the 2nd.
Boyd - 2nd round
Everyone else is 3rd round or later. Murray may sneak into the 2nd if Hundley goes back to school.
I could see a max of three QBs going in the top 15 and four going in the top 20. Four or five total going in the first round.
Bridgewater, Bortles, and Mettenberger all as first round locks. Carr a highly likely first rounder. That's four. So five if Manziel slides in.
Bridgewater - Top 3
Bortles - Between 3-15
Mettenberger - Between 10-25
Carr - Between 10-35
Manziel - Between 15-40
McCarron - Between 30-45
Hundley - I think he goes back to school. But I think he would go in the top half of the 2nd.
Boyd - 2nd round
Everyone else is 3rd round or later. Murray may sneak into the 2nd if Hundley goes back to school.
I could see a max of three QBs going in the top 15 and four going in the top 20. Four or five total going in the first round.
Bridgewater, Bortles, and Mettenberger all as first round locks. Carr a highly likely first rounder. That's four. So five if Manziel slides in.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
So this moron got caught speeding 25 miles above the speed limit again today.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/co...i_ncaaf&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
What a ****in' idiot. I don't want anything to do with someone so dumb.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/co...i_ncaaf&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
What a ****in' idiot. I don't want anything to do with someone so dumb.
I dont have a grudge against Bridgewater. Why is it when I say I dont think Bridgewater will be anything more than a little above avg NFL QB, Just like Manziel who I agree with alot of your analysis I have a grudge against Bridgewater.
I just dont think there's a franchise QB in this draft. Mettenberger/Bortles have the best chance to become franchise QB's. IMHO This doesn't mean I'm right, but I certainly think you can come up with something better than I hold a grudge.
We just disagree on Bridgewater in particular and reaching for a franchise QB in general. I'm a fix the trenches this yr guy and wait until next yr when the 4th best QB will be better than any QB in this draft. IMHO
I'm willing to wait a yr and you want instant gratification. I get that, it's human nature. Some say but we wont have the top pick next yr. I say you can trade up to the 7-10 range because I have the Texans picking in the 12-18 range in the 2015 draft without having to give up an arm and a leg. They could even trade down this yr say to Cleveland at #5 a 2014 3rd and a 2015 1st and have the ammunition to move up in 2015.
They could still draft a great player at 5. The difference is that YOU think Bridgewater is worthy of #1 and I dont. But I do enjoy the back and forth discussion. Just to be clear I dont hold a grudge against Bridgewater. BTW, Winston is my #1 rated QB in the 2015 draft so that angle is invalid.
bOODRO87
Time Consumer
I've watched just about every youtube video on this guy in the last 3 weeks. It's hard not to get excited about him. He's a fast twitch guy, with a very good burst. He understands & excels at making a beeline to the ball carrier once he gets a glimpse of where the ball is.
Texian
Hall of Fame
It has nothing to do with your opinion of Bridgewater. It has everything to do with your opinion challenges people who have already made up the minds, fallen in love with Bridgewater and have already convinced themselves that Bridgewater is the Savior. They see any negative criticism as not only an attack on Teddy but them as well. All this really means is that they have bought all the ongoing media hype for the last year. Who says advertising doesn't work. As we get closer to draft day Bridgewater's stock will continue to fade. It has already started.
bah007
Hall of Fame
Perhaps I was too strong in my criticism. You are usually a very level headed poster. You just seem to have a particularly strong opinion on Bridgewater, which I suppose surprises me. Maybe your opinion just stands out to me because most people seem to be on board with him. Just caught off guard that you're so defiantly against him. I also don't think I've seen you post what it is you don't like about him. In any case, I didn't mean to offend you.
I'm not one for instant gratification. I want the best thing for the long term. I'm even on record saying that I don't think we need to come out of this draft with a QB. I just think that if our new staff sees one they like they should take him. It's the most important position and they don't grow on trees.
And we certainly agree on Winston.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
Doesn't matter. Let him be good for someone else if he's gonna be good.
I don't want anyone who takes plays off or has a high potential to do something REALLY dumb to hurt the team or his career.
What I dont like about him is I think his talent level is on par with Andy Dalton. Bridgewater will be a good, not great QB. Certainly he's not worthy of 1-1 and if Rick picks him, that pick will reek of desparation.
Man I hope ATL makes a move like that. A trade like that would allow the Texans to fill in most of the holes this yr and set the team up for the 2015 drafting of Winston/Petty.
PapaL
Loose Screw
What team has ever filled all their holes in one year?
You can put name to a roster spot but that doesn't mean squat; ref our QB situation.
PapaL
Loose Screw
Source?
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
This is the heart of the matter. Most people do not think this years QB are elite. There are many second level QBs which are nearly interchangeable and the fifth or sixth one chosen is almost as likely to be the star as the top picks.
You don't use 1-1 on second level prospects if you can get elite level trade offers and still get good at 2-1.
I'd like to point out that DEPTH is the reason this QB class is considered strong. There are only 5 teams with QB at the top of their needs list and far more good QB prospects than this.
A current QB list is:
1. Bridgewater
2. Carr
3. Manziel
4. Bortles
5. McCarron
6. Mettenberger
7. Fales
8. Smith
9. Garoppolo
10. Boyd
11. Murray
12. Miller
13. Morris
There are no shortage of good prospects and which will prove to be best is unknown.
Without a doubt there will be three or four better QB prospects next year, but I hope we won't be picking anywhere near the point they will be on the board.
Blake
MMQB
I agree that Clowney is really showing his lack of maturity here. Dude is on pace to be a top 3 pick and he decides that speeding (and getting caught) on multiple occasions is a good idea? He is no longer on my short list. I like football players with maturity, smarts, and accountability. Not sure that Clowney has any of those.
Blake
MMQB
That is my feeling as well. I am not seeing alot of reasoning as to why poster x y or z doesnt like Teddy B. Just that they dont like him.
Sound logic, but moot until you find out if any QB's are "first level" prospects. In addition to discovering any available trade offers.
Still, I believe every year 1 or 2 QBs rise to the top as the cream of the crop. I want the cream of the crop as a potential franchise QB. Not a nice prospect like several on your list.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
If Atlanta is really hot for Clowney and might leapfrog St Louis for his services, then this might drive St Louis to swap places with Houston and make my dream of picking up their other #1 more likely. Then we could still trade with Cleveland for their 1s so they can get Bridgewater and still be in a position for elite talent at several positions including QB.
1-5, 1-15 and 1-24. Perhaps getting either Manzeil, Matthews or Barr along with the extra first round picks.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
If Rick Smith is able to pull that series of trades off AND get players who are productive, then he's a lot better at this than I suspect he is.
Texian
Hall of Fame
I don't know if there is a source for general Fan sentiment. A friend of mind called to say that the general fan sentiment is for Dimitroff to trade up for Clowney. If you find this unacceptable I guess you could read the Falcon blogs, read the Falcon message boards and listen to Atlanta Sports Talk radio to find out if my friend was lying, exaggerating just a bit or was telling me what he perceived to be the fans popular opinion.
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PapaL
Loose Screw
nero THE zero
All Pro
FWIW, this afternoon on SR610 Daniel Jeremiah compared Teddy B., in terms of quality coming into the draft, to Matt Ryan and "a more polished" Ryan Tannehill.
Who is Daniel Jeremiah?
beerlover
Hall of Fame
I heard that, not sure what to make out of it other than Jeremiah was ill prepared cause normally like his work. Look Teddy is a rhythm QB & if there is one thing Matt Ryan is not, is a rhythm QB. What I mean by that is Ryan is very mechanical in his movements, like his QB coach is in his head reminding him to keep his elbow high & tucked in, look off dbs, keep feet moving & hold finish. Teddy just lets it rip, fluid & without hesitation.
Lets not confuse athletic ability with reading coverage's ala Cam Newton when he came out, so what if it took him a couple years to develop into a complete NFL QB, point is now that he has he may now be considered among the elite in the game, don't we want someone similar? so If I were going to make a comparison between Teddy Bridgewater & somebody else, knowing no two prospects are ever exactly the same, it would be Cam Newton not Matt Ryan.
ps: not shooting the messenger, just DJ for a surprising miss on a layup
nero THE zero
All Pro
I heard that, not sure what to make out of it other than Jeremiah was ill prepared cause normally like his work. Look Teddy is a rhythm QB & if there is one thing Matt Ryan is not, is a rhythm QB. What I mean by that is Ryan is very mechanical in his movements, like his QB coach is in his head reminding him to keep his elbow high & tucked in, look off dbs, keep feet moving & hold finish. Teddy just lets it rip, fluid & without hesitation.
Lets not confuse athletic ability with reading coverage's ala Cam Newton when he came out, so what if it took him a couple years to develop into a complete NFL QB, point is now that he has he may now be considered among the elite in the game, don't we want someone similar? so If I were going to make a comparison between Teddy Bridgewater & somebody else, knowing no two prospects are ever exactly the same, it would be Cam Newton not Matt Ryan.
ps: not shooting the messenger, just DJ for a surprising miss on a layup
I think maybe you misunderstood the question. He was asked for a comparison in terms of quality, not in style, physical attributes or mental acuity.
nero THE zero
All Pro
Daniel Jeremiah is a former scout for three different NFL teams. Most recently, he was the West Coast scout for the Philadelphia Eagles from 2010 to 2012. He previously worked as a national scout with the Cleveland Browns (2007-08) and a West Coast scout for the Baltimore Ravens (2005-06), after initially joining the team as a personnel assistant from 2003 to 2004. Jeremiah graduated in 2000 from Appalachian State, where he started at quarterback for three seasons.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Jeremiah is @movethesticks on twitter and a talking hairdo at NFLN. He is also a former NFL scout. It should be noted that Jeremiah had 3 different scouting jobs with 3 different teams in 6 years. On a personal note if I saw that on resume it would go straight to the trash can. Just like spelling errors on a resume.
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Texian
Hall of Fame
You mean like the bleacher report that you scoff at?
I really have no idea. Just passing along what I was hearing from someone who lives in Atlanta and is an Atlanta Falcons season ticket holder. That's why I prefaced my post with FWIW (for what it's worth)... you can take it or you an leave it.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
well then I guess he nailed it. both graded out 9.41 per ourlads funny, lol by that I mean Matt Ryan & Cam Newton. expect Bridgewater to grade out much higher, FWIW higher than Stafford, 9.77 or Sam Bradford, 9.78. But that really means little, what matters is where will he be graded in the pros three years from now, which again I'll come back to Newton but then who knows for sure
I respect your talent evaluation & this may be a thing of semantics.... but that's not a rhythm QB. Schaub is a rhythm QB. His feet & his reads are tied together. He gets the ball out on time.
I haven't seen a true rhythm QB come out of the college ranks in a long time. Most of them are one read, scramble (whether behind the LOS, or towards the chains). Some hide it better than others, but very few of them execute a 3 step drop the way it's supposed to be done.
Can you read?
I said most (Not all)
The talent in this yrs draft is at OL/DL/LB/WR.
It fits with the major needs the Texans currently have. Excluding CB/S/QB. This should be the yr the Texans should be able to fill 4 needs in the draft if they do their homework, because of the talent level of this draft and the Texans draft position, regardless of scheme.
Now can Rick Smith execute what it takes to add atleast 4 difference makers in this draft? I've got serious doubts. (Just remember nothing is ever Slck Rick's fault)
Speeding, Really?
What 20-25 yr old hasn't driven a car over 100 mph.
I drove my car 25 mph over the speed limit Thursday. I just didn't get caught. It seems as though A. People dont rember what it was like to be a 20 yr old. B. Are looking for any reason possible to not pick Clowney or any reason to justify picking Bridgewater.
Why? Because the Texans need a QB? The worst decision is forcing a QB at 1-1. See J.Russell/D.Carr/T.Couch etc......
Blake
MMQB
Yes, Speeding, REALLLY!
I drove over 100mph once in my life. But the difference is that I was not about to be negotiating a million dollar contract depending on my draft status.
And save me the argument that taking a QB 1-1 means it is forcing it when we all value these guys differently. Every player thrives and fails for different reasons.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
I don't think it's the "just speeding" that irks people. He's acted immature all year and plays like he doesn't even care 50% of the time.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
While I'd prefer this 20 year old listen to competent advisers, it would be the exception rather than the rule if he actually listened. Kids usually have to make a few mistakes in order to learn. Too bad we can't look into the future and see if he grows up or stays a kid.
2009 he got us Cushing, Barwin, Glover, & McCain.
Cushing was DROY (twice), Barwin had a great year coming off the bench. I think Glover was our best CB his rookie year & McCain also had a good rookie year.
I don't know if that fits your bill as "difference makers" but I think they all contributed very well their rookie year. I'd be thrilled if he can do that again.
2011 he got us JJ Watt, Brooks Reed, & Tj Yates... not bad, but Brooks & JJ started coming on at the end of the year & Tj did pretty good considering his playing meant we lost our starting QB (& still made the play-offs, & won a play-off game).
Hopefully some of those other picks that didn't make a difference right off will start to pay off. DeAndre had a good year, hopefully he can repeat. Swag is a player, let's just hope he hasn't earned a bad rep. Hopefully Brooks can continue to develop.
We're all hoping for Brennan & Q to be 100% healthy and pick up where they left off. Mercilus might do better in a 4-3. Hopefully Brandon Harris can finally get out of the dog house. & Crick turns into the solid player we need him to be. Garrett Graham & I like Ryan Griffin, but we need someone better than OD was.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Agreed. I think his knucklehead antics just scare a lot of guys because they don't want to waste this #1 pick. We need a QB, but a lot of people don't see a QB worth the #1 pick and the guy who is touted as the most talented guy in the draft has been acting like an idiot for the last 5 months.