infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Do you see the word in bold?
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Clowney, then what?
- Thread starter thunderkyss
- Start date
Do you see the word in bold?
Woops ! Busted ! So I must plead guilty of letting my enthusiasm for this bluest of blue-chip prospects at arguable the most important non-QB position on an NFL team impair my focus. But I'm willing to say he could be this years Vernon Gholston or Aaron Currey, it could happen, it's possible. Not gonna happen, but
OK, it's possible.
TexansFTW
Veteran
LOL.
But seriously, respect. You made a mistake and you were humble enough to admit it. I wish more people on this forum were like you.
Most will find a way to argue that more, but you came clean. Good stuff.
What do you think is more important? CB or DE? I won't argue it, but just since you posted that and I kind of lean corner, I wanted to know. But I respect all people's opinions that believe DE.
Of course the QBs dominate as the position selected most frequently in the Draft, but after that only offensive left tackles and edge-rushers have been selected #1 overall in recent years, and few of them at that. Actually don't know if a CB was ever the top pick, but I would never discount the importance of corners and now more than ever with the defenses using more and more nickel/dime schemes.
bhsman
Rookie
Clowney's ability to defend against the run has some people wondering if he'd be the perfect replacement for Antonio Smith in the 3-4 2-gap.
Probably DE, seeing as Smith is likely to leave this offseason and Crick is the only dependable depth there. That said, I've prioritized looking for a speedy DB to project as a slot corner to replace McCain (assuming we don't grab one in FA); having a great defensive line can do a lot to hide a secondary's weaknesses, as Carolina and San Fran have shown.
Someone over at BRB wondered if we could convince Cleveland to pull off a trade down and nabbing Khalil Mack (or Clowney if the draft goes Manziel/Bridgewater-Matthews-Bortles/Manziel) and then Dennard at 26, with Nix and Mettenberger with the 2nd-round picks.
Probably DE, seeing as Smith is likely to leave this offseason and Crick is the only dependable depth there. That said, I've prioritized looking for a speedy DB to project as a slot corner to replace McCain (assuming we don't grab one in FA); having a great defensive line can do a lot to hide a secondary's weaknesses, as Carolina and San Fran have shown.
Someone over at BRB wondered if we could convince Cleveland to pull off a trade down and nabbing Khalil Mack (or Clowney if the draft goes Manziel/Bridgewater-Matthews-Bortles/Manziel) and then Dennard at 26, with Nix and Mettenberger with the 2nd-round picks.
klockWork
Rookie
The notion that Clemson'sLT handled Clowney on that gif is absurd. The more I watched that play the more I'm impressed by Clowney.
That particular play, Clemson blocking schemes looked like to prevent inside pressure from Clowney by deploying a rb to help chip/chop him. At the snap, once engaged by the LT, Clowney attempted to rip inside but notice help in the middle, decided to take the edge instead. The LT clearly knows he has help inside, allowing him to prepare to push Clowney outside which he FAILED because Clowney stayed tight on the edge which puts him in a position to sack an undisciplined QB.
How many times have we seen Mario Williams get push out of play from this type of blocking?
That particular play to me, looked like Clemson baited Clowney to go inside where he would get chopped down by the backs. The fact that Clowney was able to recognize the trap so fast and counter it with the only move there was for that play is truly impressive.
This guy technical skills, play recognition, and explosiveness at such a young age is insane.
That particular play, Clemson blocking schemes looked like to prevent inside pressure from Clowney by deploying a rb to help chip/chop him. At the snap, once engaged by the LT, Clowney attempted to rip inside but notice help in the middle, decided to take the edge instead. The LT clearly knows he has help inside, allowing him to prepare to push Clowney outside which he FAILED because Clowney stayed tight on the edge which puts him in a position to sack an undisciplined QB.
How many times have we seen Mario Williams get push out of play from this type of blocking?
That particular play to me, looked like Clemson baited Clowney to go inside where he would get chopped down by the backs. The fact that Clowney was able to recognize the trap so fast and counter it with the only move there was for that play is truly impressive.
This guy technical skills, play recognition, and explosiveness at such a young age is insane.
\
That's contrary to what I've read about Jadeveon's ability to defense the rushing play, which basically is that he's solid against the run. He's not just a pass-rusher, though that's definitely his greatest strength. And no he shouldn't be cast in a role as a 3-4 2-gap lineman anymore than JJ should.
Speaking of "the run", check out Clowney anchoring his high school sprint relay team in the state championship 400 meter relay race:
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoo...eo-watch-jadeveon-clowney-run-the-4x100-relay.
revan
Waterboy
This is why Keenum pisses me off even more because if he would have shown clear cut skills to go with him as our starting QB next season we would be ordering our Clowney jerseys right now.
TexansFTW
Veteran
Since this thread is SOMEHOW split 50/50 on that play I implore we use the actual analyst calling the game as the tie breaker. That can be found at the top of this page under Leeb's post.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Geez Louise, ya'll have really broken down one of Clowney's sacks pretty thoroughly. What about the other 2?
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Here is a video of his 2012 4.5 sack performance vs clemson
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TsrBdnLV6Og
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TsrBdnLV6Og
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
As I said b4, clowney is much better as a run defender than he is as a pass rusher. He has good instincts as a run defender when the ball is coming his way. For clowney to be as athletic as he is, he can't bend the corner. That means he's a outside speed rusher. All the best pass rushers in the nfl could get upfield,but bend and dip their shoulder almost to the ground to close the pocket on the qb. If you watch beasley and dee ford, those guy will bend and dip before they get past the qb. Clowney and Barr both have problems with this. Manny Lawson had problems with this and it why he's a better guy in coverage than rushing the qb. If you can't bend and convert speed to power,lt's will just push you pass the qb.
bah007
Hall of Fame
The issue with Clowney has never been about whether or not we could use another pass rusher. It has always been about the risk we would be taking on him because of the questions surrounding him.
Blake
MMQB
+1. An JJ Watt clone couldnt help their team if they are getting locked up or in rehab or ect.
I still think there is a large chance that we take Clowney. But his reward has to outweigh his risk.
Can you admit that anybody in this draft may have a chance to be as good as or better than TB?
Yes the Seahawk's victory yesterday clearly lends support to the argument that a formidable defense led by potent pass-rushers to pressure the oppositions passing game needs just a good but not great QB is a formula for success at the highest level in the NFL.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
For someone not super familiar with the Seahawks personnel, can someone tell me which of these guys were high draft picks for the Seahawks?
DE Red Bryant Michael Bennett
LDT Tony McDaniel Jordan Hill
RDT Brandon Mebane Clinton McDonald
RDE Chris Clemons Cliff Avril Benson Mayowa
DE Red Bryant Michael Bennett
LDT Tony McDaniel Jordan Hill
RDT Brandon Mebane Clinton McDonald
RDE Chris Clemons Cliff Avril Benson Mayowa
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Red Bryant was a 4th round pick by Seattle in 2008.
Michael Bennett was an UDFA in 2009 signed by the Seahawks. He was claimed off waivers by Tampa Bay and was productive there during his first contract. Signed with Seattle in FA this past season.
Tony McDaniel was an UDFA in 2006 signed by the Jaguars. He signed with Seattle in FA this past season.
Jordan Hill was a 3rd round pick by Seattle in 2013.
Brandon Mebane was a 3rd round pick by Seattle in 2007.
Clinton McDonald was a 7th round pick by Cincinnati in 2009. He was traded to Seattle in 2011.
Chris Clemons was an UDFA in 2003 signed by the Redskins. He was traded to Seattle in 2010.
Cliff Avril was a 3rd round pick by Detroit in 2008. He signed with Seattle in FA this past season.
Benson Mayowa was an UDFA in 2013 signed by Seattle.
TexansFTW
Veteran
It's very clear this team cannot be replicated.
I argue it's the greatest defense of all time.
This is coaching pure and simple. Their defensive philosophies there are 2nd to none. You don't take a band of misfits and crush one of the best all time, the year he breaks every record all time, and do it easily without incredible coaching and mindsets instilled in everyone on the field.
My hope is that people don't get caught up in the moment though and feel like this is what we need to model ourselves after.
What they have is not something that can't be duplicated and I also believe what they have is not sustainable, although I assume them to heavy odds on favorites next year.
I argue it's the greatest defense of all time.
This is coaching pure and simple. Their defensive philosophies there are 2nd to none. You don't take a band of misfits and crush one of the best all time, the year he breaks every record all time, and do it easily without incredible coaching and mindsets instilled in everyone on the field.
My hope is that people don't get caught up in the moment though and feel like this is what we need to model ourselves after.
What they have is not something that can't be duplicated and I also believe what they have is not sustainable, although I assume them to heavy odds on favorites next year.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
I keep thinking that our former BUM coach will one day do what this former BUM coach has done. He failed twice before becoming a genius.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Of course. My stance has been, and will be that TB is better prepared to succeed at the next level because of his football IQ. Can any other QB be successful or turn out to be better? Of course. As of now I dont see another QB being able to handle the intricacies of the position, they can be learned but how long will it take? I'm chomping at the bit for Gruden to get these guys in front of a chalkboard and see how far along each guy is in his development UPSTAIRS. Physical limitations can be overcome by heart, desire and an intellectual approach to the game.
Just my two cents.
TexansFTW
Veteran
The personnel (players). Drafting a team like this with similar style players.
I believe it's all coaching. And I don't believe the guy we just hired is anything like the kind of coaching they are doing up there.
99% of 5th round CBs fail - They have an All Pro there, not to mention they have a 6th round backup that absolutely beasted last night
7th round LB - Super Bowl MVP
5th Round SS - Pro Bowler
I could go on and on, what I'm trying to say is this is a cast of misfits that are all playing at ridiculous levels. To try and recreate this without those coaches would be very stupid and a waste of time to me. They got something in the water up there and everyone is drinking it... lots of it.
With SF in the same division & Arizona on the up & coming?
Heck, Fisher probably have a thing or two to say about it as well.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
That is a motley crew isn't it.
Not sure you can replicate that model, maybe it is all scheme and coaching?
Denver isn't all that good a team offensively , despite what Manning helped them accomplish. He made very poor OL look like a pretty good bunch for much of the season. That Manning had his best season with that patchwork OL says a lot about his ability as a QB.
Seattle's defense made him hold the ball with their coverage scheme while buying time for the defensive front to get to him.
The difference between Seattle & everyone else ? Their corners are big and physical and play that way , jamming guy's at the LOS and playing tight coverage all over the field. None of those 5-8 yard cushions period , much less on 3rd and 3. They hit them early and they stay with the receiver.
This totally disrupts everything Manning rely's upon to mask the weakness in his OL and his own weaknesses (mobility and arm strength).
When he cant get the ball out of his hands in under 2 seconds he looks ... mortal. When he's flinging it out in his normal 1.6-2.0 seconds .... he's nearly unbeatable.
Why were they able to find these DB's deep in the draft ?! Because teams aren't looking for physicality from corners .... they are looking for speed , recovery and change of direction instead of guy's with size who can disrupt routes and cover because of the evolution of the rules.
With the rules in the NFL so slanted towards the offensive player , these players were against the grain picks .... but with Seattle's success I could see other teams looking for the same type of guys .... but that increases the number of teams in competition for those players where one team was looking at them before. That's going to make duplication .... more difficult.
It is both the defensive principal & the talent level of those players that made them a success .... They got talented guy's who had the skills they thought important and stuck to that ideal ..... it paid off.
Its much cheaper to find a 6'2" guy who can jam a receiver at the LOS than it is to find dominant players in the defensive front .... that everyone is looking for.
Seattle's success could redefine what teams are looking for from their DB's tho .... which just increases the cost of that type of player.
bhsman
Rookie
We already have at least one guy in Watt; Clowney (and maybe Nix if he falls) would make it pretty beastly.
This is what I want to happen. Followed by drafting the best OL in the 3rd. The value should there.
McGill,Byndom and Goodson are 3 late rd nickel CB's that would be upgrades over McCain.
1 Clowney
2 Nix
3 OL
4 one of those CB's.
Who's your quarterback ?!
Can the DB's currently on the roster and or that 4th rounder play with the physicality required to buy those guy's up front time to get home ?
Oh... and who's your QB ?!
Don't get me wrong , I'd like a dominant defense but I think we are putting the cart before the horse ...
Devils advocate here. If you build a dominant defense you don't have to have a "franchise" QB to win. You just have to have a competent one. One that understands the system and can run it without making big mistakes.
Don't disagree with the theory .... but no QB thru the first 4 rounds leaves you with one of the following:
1 Schaub
2 Keenum
3 A Free Agent from a crop that is lacking talent (Here's a link to the FA list)
And here are all the FA QB's -
Derek Anderson
Jimmy Clausen
Kellen Clemens
Matt Flynn
Josh Freeman
David Garrard
Rex Grossman
Chad Henne
Shaun Hill
Tarvaris Jackson
Jon Kitna
Josh McCown
Luke McCown
Colt McCoy,
Dan Orlovsky
Curtis Painter
Jordan Palmer
Brady Quinn
Rusty Smith
Michael Vick
Charlie Whitehurst
I wouldn't feel confident going into next season with any of the above choices.
I could see passing on a QB in the first round , but waiting for a 5th rounder or next years draft .... ugh.
Ok , so we don't draft a QB , go with Schaub , Keenum and a vet FA .... and lose 14 games again.
Then we draft one of those QB's next year and wait one or more seasons for that guy to mature ....
How many seasons are you content with pissing away waiting for a QB .... What team will Watt, Clowney & Nix be playing for when you finally have that QB?!
TexansFTW
Veteran
Odds came out. 7:1 favorites. So, yes, they are odds-on favorites.
Yep, this is where many of us see differently I feel like. Also, who is your #1 WR when you get that QB? Andre is now likely gone, and I'm sorry, but Hopkins will never be THE man in any WR core unless it's out of last resort or helpless to do anything about it. He's a complimentary piece that can beast, but he's not the staple of your WR core.
Now, we don't have a #1 WR, we have an older Arian, and now we probably have no CBs, not to mention that I doubt any rookie QB on our team drafting in the top 5 is gonna take this team to a Super Bowl.
It's just not gonna happen. People become prisoners of the moment and see the Seahawks with an average late round QB and a strong defense win and say "let's just do that". Well, to start, you gotta NAIL EVERY FREAKING draft pick in rounds 1-7 for about 2 straight years. The Texans haven't got more than 2 quality starters in a draft since 2009! We aren't becoming Seattle for a while, so let's just get a QB to overcome our deficiencies.
The Browns have a top 10 defense and built out the trenches the last few years and last time I checked they aren't in the Super Bowl like the Seahawks.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
All this "wait a year" stuff sounds arguable when you are only talking QB. Problem is the rest of the team isn't cryogenically frozen. That's a year off of everyone's time in the league and on their contracts.
Sign Cassell or trade for Mallett. This is the yr to fix the OL/DL for the 1st time in team history
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Trade for Mallet is still going to take an early pick you are wanting for that fix.
I don't like the idea of signing Cassell with the intent of him being our starter, it just seems like settling for mediocrity once again regardless if we are rebuilding other parts of the team. I am not opposed to him coming in to compete with a high round rookie and be a reliable backup/mentor to our young guy; I think we have to at least take a shot at a future QB in this years draft even if its not at 1.1.
As for trading for Mallet, I was originally opposed to this idea when it was first brought up around the community, but I have warmed up to the notion since. If we were to trade our second round pick for him, I would be happy; I don't think any of the second round guys that will be available to us have the same upside as Mallet, so I would have no problem sending the #33 for him, in theory at least.
I still don't the probability of a trade like that is high, and common knowledge says we will just take our pick of the QB litter at 1.1...but Clowney at 1 and #33 for Mallet is an intriguing idea.
I'm not real high on him , rather wait another round and take A.J. McCarron at 3:1 .... Call me crazy but coming away with Clowney , McCarron and one of Antonio Richardson , Jace Amaro or Kyle Van Noy is better than Clowney & Garapolo.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
I don't believe that for one second.
What's difficult is finding a guy who can jam the receiver, then turn & run with him... or a guy who can miss on a jam & recover. Otherwise, you're going to need really good safeties with really good range to cover the deep middle & make up for poor line play by the CBs.
Right now, we need our safeties to do that & compensate for poor play of the LBs in the middle of the field.
Blake
MMQB
All I know is that Josh McCown and Chad Henne showed that they can play. I think Josh would love to come back to Texas and play ball. As long as Texas is where his home and family are.
revan
Waterboy
I'm so hoping this scenario becomes the reality for the Texans' Draft in May. Garoppolo has quick feet, a quick release, and plays with the kinda moxy that I'm hoping BOB is looking for in his QB prospect. And IMO the level of talent if any is marginal between him and the more "high profile" QB prospects in this Draft. And most important of all, this would free the team up to use our top pick on the top prize in this Draft.
Schaub was more than capable of taking a team with a dominant defense and strong running game to the promised land .... until his body broke down.
Mossup is right .... Its not like Russell Wilson lit up the league this season , he just got the ball to the playmakers and didn't make many mistakes in the process. While Texans QB's made mistake after mistake .... after mistake.
Sure , its harder to find a guy who has size and the ability to cover and make up ground .... but when you are the only team looking for those players , it gives you a larger pool of players to choose from .... while the other 31 teams are all looking for guy's with speed and closing ability to break on balls ...
There's a difference in the type of player tho , these guy's don't have to be fast , back peddle and flip their hips for recovery like the traditional corner. They just need to disrupt and run with the receiver.
The trend in the NFL in recent years has been for the defensive backs to give ground and make a play on the ball because of the rules. The good QB's are able to exploit that by getting rid of the ball quickly. Seattle's defense takes advantage of that 5 yard chuck rule and plays them physical within that space then they remain in tight coverage. They don't need so much speed because of that tactic. Its hard for a receiver to use his speed with a defender engaging him.
Their scheme covers up a lot of inadequacies .... you jam guys at the line it disrupts the timing of an offense and buys time for the defensive front to get after guys which essentially reduces the time the defenders have to cover "In route".
We always talk about our defensive backs needing to cover until the DL can get pressure but this tactic allows the DB to buy time for the DL rather than waiting for the DL to get there. It's like cutting that time in half.
Imagine how many sacks this Texans defensive front could generated if they were afforded that extra half second rather than having the DB's play 7-8 yards off the receiver ....
Seattle's defensive concept is simple and efficient. While the rest of the league (in general) is chasing chickens , their DB's don't let the chickens start running ... they catch them at the roost.