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Clowney, then what?

infantrycak said:
I wouldn't take him that high because of injury concern.

Whether that is considered worthy but injury concern or just not worthy doesn't matter to me.

The injury concern is serious enough for me that the Texans getting him would take trading back for two 1sts and then taking him with the 2nd. Not likely, but then again almost nobody saw Aaron Rodgers sliding that far or DaRick Rodgers going undrafted.



Well we will just agree to disagree on that one. OTs ride pass rushers wide all the time in the NFL (and college). It is a very common technique for dealing with speed rushes.

Right as? - now that is absurd.
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I get you injury concerns,

But Clowney will not get past Atlanta, if he does I could see a team like Chicago/San Diego/Dallas trading up to pick Clowney. He's that good and somebody will be willing to accept that risk. IMHO
 
steelbtexan said:
I get you injury concerns,

But Clowney will not get past Atlanta, if he does I could see a team like Chicago/San Diego/Dallas trading up to pick Clowney. He's that good and somebody will be willing to accept that risk. IMHO
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Nice post dude, till today I have never thought of Clowney with any of those teams. We all know Jerruh will throw the farm for him.
 
IDEXAN said:
Just changing the HC and QB gives you no guarantees of victory. In KCs case they were able to hire a proven NFL winning HC and sign a QB in FA who was a proven winner, even had winning games in the play-offs when at San Fran. Just making a coaching change & qB change for the sake of change guarantees absolutely nothing.
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Nothing is guaranteed in life or in sports. But you don't get better repeating those same failed tendencies and actions over and over.

Change is sometimes necessary. Ask Philly and ask Andy Reid. Both new coaches, both new QBs, both new outlooks with playoffs to their name.
 
infantrycak said:
Well we will just agree to disagree on that one. OTs ride pass rushers wide all the time in the NFL (and college). It is a very common technique for dealing with speed rushes.
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I guess we will.

infantrycak said:
Blows past? Right as? - now that is absurd. The LT has him engaged back to 6 yards behind the LOS. Clowney has no play if the QB steps up.
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That is pure speculation. You, me or anybody else has no idea how that plays out if the QB goes right, or steps up.
 
Blake said:
And the notion that he was well handled is a bit absurd. The LT gets caught on his heels and Clowney blows past him right as the QB tries to escape the pocket.
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The LT did his job, which is not to get beat inside. You can see Clowney trying to rip inside first, which is what a DE in a pass rush wants to do.

That sack is all on Boyd. The pocket was clean in front of him. Clowney should not have even been a factor in the play, because he got pushed outside. If Boyd didn't have the pocket presence of a damp cardboard box, he would have stepped into that nice pocket that his line made for him
 
The1ApplePie said:
The LT did his job, which is not to get beat inside. You can see Clowney trying to rip inside first, which is what a DE in a pass rush wants to do.

That sack is all on Boyd. The pocket was clean in front of him
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You mean the same inside where he has RB help waiting? I am not saying the LT didnt do his job. But I also am not going to take away credit from Clowney's sack.
 
mussop said:
Best playmaker In the draft. I wouldn't be shocked if we were seriously considering him. How much longer are we going to be able to count on Johnson?
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I'd love to have him, I'm not to the point where I'd like for the Texans to take him though.

I'm hoping someone falls in love with him enough to trade with us to get him.

Clowney
Watkins
Manziel


Those are the kind of players people get excited about... excited enough to pull the trigger on a draft day trade.
 
Blake said:
You mean the same inside where he has RB help waiting? I am not saying the LT didnt do his job. But I also am not going to take away credit from Clowney's sack.
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The protection worked how it was supposed to, and Clowney ran himself out of the play. Boyd gifted him the sack by not stepping up.

Not taking away from Clowney's effort, but that had a lot more to do with Boyd's incompetence than it did Clowney's play.
 
The1ApplePie said:
Not taking away from Clowney's effort, but that had a lot more to do with Boyd's incompetence than it did Clowney's play.
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I totally agree that it had alot more to do with Boyd's decision. The only issue I had was with the notion that Clowney was well handled by the tackle.
 
mussop said:
You guys are getting rediculous. The last sentence shows you've developed a negative emotional attachment to Clowney. No doubt from all the bickering that's been going on here. You're one of the best posters On this board. You're better than this. Don't let all the BS going on here kill your objectivity.

Clowney is talented and if he aces the interview process he's well worthy of the number one pick. As is Bridgwater, Manziel and Bortles. To deny this is just setting yourself up for a huge letdown. It's a pretty sure bet it's going to be one of those guys.

Whichever one it is people are going to have to learn to accept it.
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I was tryin to be comical with that last line .... (Have you seen the sack that Strahan set the record on against Favre ? What a joke.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C2W62HNNsc

Physically a healthy Clowney is worthy of the #1. Is he healthy? Will these issues be reoccurring ?!

Mentally .... I don't think he's worth of the #1. He sure didn't play motivated last season ... (injuries aside). What's going to change that ... after a multi-million dollar payday (besides a contract year).

There are significant character concerns .... starting with letting his team down by putting himself before the team.

I just think Clowney is a big mistake.


I know its highly possible that they take him with the #1 pick , if that happens ... it happens. I wont suddenly become a fan of the flavor of the month team.

Bridgewater , I don't like with the #1 but I could live with him as he's a gamble at the proper position.
Manziel I could live with , he's special between the lines .... and a gamble at the right position.

Bortles .... right position , wrong guy.

infantrycak said:
Blows past? Right as? - now that is absurd. The LT has him engaged back to 6 yards behind the LOS. Clowney has no play if the QB steps up.
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Or steps to his right instead of his left , or was that his other right ?!


Blake said:
I cant view youtube at work so I am just going to assume you are not being sarcastic. :cool:
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That's a link to the same Favre / Strahan "sack" I mentioned above ....

The1ApplePie said:
The protection worked how it was supposed to, and Clowney ran himself out of the play. Boyd gifted him the sack by not stepping up.

Not taking away from Clowney's effort, but that had a lot more to do with Boyd's incompetence than it did Clowney's play.
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Maybe I should rethink this whole thing .... we actually agree on something .
 
steelbtexan said:
This is why I would say no to the Texans drafting Boyd.

I would have no problem at all drafting Brandon Thomas to 6'4-316 Lbs to play RT in the 3rd/4th rd. That guy is and has been good for a long time. Very underrated. Checkout his footwork.
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That's exactly what I got from this gif. That was great work by the tackle and a bad play by the QB to run into that sack. Just bad pocket presence.

Clowney is obviously athletic but that tackle had him beat as long as Boyd doesn't do anything dumb.
 
Corrosion said:
Mentally .... I don't think he's worth of the #1. He sure didn't play motivated last season ... (injuries aside). What's going to change that ... after a multi-million dollar payday (besides a contract year).

There are significant character concerns .... starting with letting his team down by putting himself before the team.
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Clowney was so un-motivated and put himself before the team that he only played 76%+ of the team's defensive snaps and has gotten nothing but praise from his teammates.

Wait-!

revan said:
On that one GIF what stood out to me is how Clowney was immediately in the backfield. His speed and natural ability are amazing and I have no doubt he will set or shatter records at the combine.
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Yeah, the sack is the 'highlight' of that play but it still happens in part because Clowney is so quick that he's already in the backfield and is in a position to make that sack in the first place.
 
No one doubts that Clowney is gonna dominate the combine and move up whatever boards he wasn't already top 3 in.

You don't win a football game at the bench press though. You gotta take what that bench press gave you and put it on the field.

Stephen Hill also dominated a combine a couple years ago. J-E-T......s?

If we must take Clowney on this team I want him in a trade down much like everyone that submits to TB. I want us to get him at 4 with additional picks.

Work out warriors that don't produce on the football field when the camera's are rolling aren't #1 picks for me.
 
TexansFTW said:
Work out warriors that don't produce on the football field when the camera's are rolling aren't #1 picks for me.
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I know, which is why Clowney's great technical abilities in addition to his amazing athleticism is what makes him so great. :cow:
 
TexansFTW said:
No one doubts that Clowney is gonna dominate the combine and move up whatever boards he wasn't already top 3 in.

You don't win a football game at the bench press though. You gotta take what that bench press gave you and put it on the field.

Stephen Hill also dominated a combine a couple years ago. J-E-T......s?

If we must take Clowney on this team I want him in a trade down much like everyone that submits to TB. I want us to get him at 4 with additional picks.

Work out warriors that don't produce on the football field when the camera's are rolling aren't #1 picks for me.
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I guess we can assume you're going with Bridgewater in the mock. :breakdance:
 
JCTexan said:
I guess we can assume you're going with Bridgewater in the mock. :breakdance:
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lol, if TB is under 6'1 it will make things real hard on me. I generally need a minimum 6'2" to endorse someone at the QB and WR position.

A lot of things can change between now and then, my 2-5 already has. My #1 generally is made up after the FOOTBALL part of the FOOTBALL season is over though and I think I've done better than the Texans the past 2 years.
 
Looking at the .gif again...anyone notice anything?

The rest of South Carolina's line is getting absolute NO push. None. Clowney's speed, power, and - yes - motor put him in that position to make that sack when Boyd took too long and ran out. EDIT: Hell, Boyd only decides to run because Clowney is so damn close at that point already. THAT is what pressure does, Clowney was also in the right position to get a sack out of it.
 
mussop said:
Sure it did if the LT was supposed to play like he had skates on. Ran himself out of the play??? Yeh ok!:vincepalm:
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bhsman said:
Looking at the .gif again...anyone notice anything?

The rest of South Carolina's line is getting absolute NO push. None. Clowney's speed, power, and - yes - motor put him in that position to make that sack when Boyd took too long and ran out. EDIT: Hell, Boyd only decides to run because Clowney is so damn close at that point already. THAT is what pressure does, Clowney was also in the right position to get a sack out of it.
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45443188.jpg
 
TexansFTW said:
Nothing is guaranteed in life or in sports. But you don't get better repeating those same failed tendencies and actions over and over.

Change is sometimes necessary. Ask Philly and ask Andy Reid. Both new coaches, both new QBs, both new outlooks with playoffs to their name.
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This is a very true statement
 
mussop said:
Sure it did if the LT was supposed to play like he had skates on. Ran himself out of the play??? Yeh ok!:vincepalm:
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No problem with having skates on if it lets you ride the DE outside and out of the play, which he did. If a speed rusher wants to spend all of his energy working outside, you let him.

Boyd had a perfect pocket in which to step up. The fact that he tried to roll out blindly is what doomed him.
 
Seems like Boyd is locked in in one receiver on the left, obviously the pass wasn't there. He senses pressure and runs smack into it.

Clowney is showing his class, the OT is doing well, the RB is obviously conscious of Clowney's counter move and Boyd craps the bed.

More a condemnation of Boyd than anything.
 
bhsman said:
Looking at the .gif again...anyone notice anything?

The rest of South Carolina's line is getting absolute NO push. None. Clowney's speed, power, and - yes - motor put him in that position to make that sack when Boyd took too long and ran out. EDIT: Hell, Boyd only decides to run because Clowney is so damn close at that point already. THAT is what pressure does, Clowney was also in the right position to get a sack out of it.
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Which makes you wonder why Boyd decided to "escape" towards Clowney's side.

You can't chose your opponents, Ints that are tipped to you, or overthrown into your lap still count. TD passes on blown coverages... still count.

It's not like Boyd slid up under him & assumed the fetal position. Clowney did what he was supposed to do. He disengaged & got a pretty athletic QB who for whatever reason thought he could run past him.
 
The1ApplePie said:
No problem with having skates on if it lets you ride the DE outside and out of the play, which he did. If a speed rusher wants to spend all of his energy working outside, you let him.

Boyd had a perfect pocket in which to step up. The fact that he tried to roll out blindly is what doomed him.
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Only that's not what happened. Mario was the master at getting rode outside and out of the play.

If Clowney had been rode out like you suggest the QB could of easily broke free of the pocket by going straight to his left. He didn't have that option because Clowney was right there pushing the OL right towards him.

A DE has to make sure to not get hooked and allow the QB to have an open lane to run through. Especially a mobile QB which boyd is.
 
mussop said:
DE has to make sure to not get hooked and allow the QB to have an open lane to run through. Especially a mobile QB which boyd is.
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And Clowney failed utterly to do so as there was a gaping hole if Boyd had gone forward left instead of back left.
 
infantrycak said:
And Clowney failed utterly to do so as there was a gaping hole if Boyd had gone forward left instead of back left.
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Clowney probably would have run himself right out of that play .... if Boyd made the decision to go any direction other than the one he did .... Boyd's incompetence led to that play.


We're really nitpicking this one play ... but then again , he only had two other sacks all season.

If we watch those games instead of just the highlights from those games , how many plays did he run himself out of ?!
 
infantrycak said:
And Clowney failed utterly to do so as there was a gaping hole if Boyd had gone forward left instead of back left.
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Or it was an obvious passing down seeing as Clowney was allowed to pass rush rather than play contain on that down. Not that will stop you from looking for any imperfections you can find in that .gif, Jesus Christ.
 
infantrycak said:
I didn't think anyone was going to defend it being anything other than an average play with a lucky sack due to a boneheaded QB.
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Yes the QB made a bad decision. Doesn't take away the fact that Clowney made a good play. A lot of Watts sacks come the same way. He was engaged with the blocker which he was pushing backwards. When the QB made a move he disengaged violently and quickly took him down. That's a good play.
 
This is amazing how this play has turned into Clowney outplaying his competition when the Tackle did exactly what he was trained to do.

This goes hand in hand with the growing rumors that Boyd will be a 4th+ round project.
 
TexansFTW said:
This is amazing how this play has turned into Clowney outplaying his competition when the Tackle did exactly what he was trained to do.

This goes hand in hand with the growing rumors that Boyd will be a 4th+ round project.
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The tackle did was he was supposed to do; that sack is on Boyd. But Clowney also did a good job, and the .gif is a good way of showing off his burst.
 
TexansFTW said:
This is amazing how this play has turned into Clowney outplaying his competition when the Tackle did exactly what he was trained to do.

This goes hand in hand with the growing rumors that Boyd will be a 4th+ round project.
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Yep

Boyd will be dropping like a rock.
 
bhsman said:
The tackle did was he was supposed to do; that sack is on Boyd. But Clowney also did a good job, and the .gif is a good way of showing off his burst.
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Are you contradicting yourself? The LT did a good job, beat Clowney 1v1 and Clowney still somehow did a good job on the play? Please, Boyd gift wrapped that sack to Clowney: Knowing the RB had inside help Boyd should have never left the pocket on the outside.
 
JCTexan said:
Are you contradicting yourself? The LT did a good job, beat Clowney 1v1 and Clowney still somehow did a good job on the play? Please, Boyd gift wrapped that sack to Clowney: Knowing the RB had inside help Boyd should have never left the pocket on the outside.
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Now check out how Bridgewater reacts to the same pressure.

HvYQJ4.gif
 
revan said:
Now check out how Bridgewater reacts to the same pressure.

HvYQJ4.gif
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The two plays look night and day different to me. On the Boyd sack, Boyd has a clean pocket to work with but feels pressure that isn't there. Boyd goes to the outside and gift wraps a sack to Clowney. On the Bridgewater play, TB actually has real pressure that's coming unblocked at him. Bridgewater takes two steps into the pocket to avoid the rusher and delivers a nice pass to his WR. That's the difference between being a top five pick & a 5th rounder.
 
TexansFTW said:
This is amazing how this play has turned into Clowney outplaying his competition when the Tackle did exactly what he was trained to do.
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I can't say that Tackle did exactly what he was supposed to do. There was no push coming up the middle, no push coming from his right. If he felt pressure, it came from that tackle being pushed up his blind side. He's all in Boyd's Koolaide before Boyd takes off.

Just doesn't make sense for Boyd to run that way. He's got an open lane to his right. Big as Dallas.
 
thunderkyss said:
I can't say that Tackle did exactly what he was supposed to do.

Just doesn't make sense for Boyd to run that way. He's got an open lane to his right. Big as Dallas.
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You should be able to say the OT did exactly what he was supposed to do, you see it 30+ times per NFL game. There is a reason they call it dropping back in the pocket and not dropping back behind the wall. What shape is a pocket?

Boyd has an open lane to go anywhere except the one direction he went.
 
bhsman said:
Looking at the .gif again...anyone notice anything?

The rest of South Carolina's line is getting absolute NO push. None. Clowney's speed, power, and - yes - motor put him in that position to make that sack when Boyd took too long and ran out. EDIT: Hell, Boyd only decides to run because Clowney is so damn close at that point already. THAT is what pressure does, Clowney was also in the right position to get a sack out of it.
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That's what I'm talking about ! My boy Jadeveon makes a sack, but his critics on this Board admonish his performance for being merely opportunistic and not totally overwhelming.
Some of the best players in the game have a less than perfect performance now and then you know. Remember JJs last game of his college career in the Rose Bowl vs TCU, arguably the most important college game of his career ?
His whole game that day was less than memorable.
The Frogs basically shut him down, but last time I checked he turned out pretty good in the NFL. This Clowney kid, he's the top talent in this years Draft people. EOS !
*********************************
Thinking back to his last game of his college career - vs. TCU in the Rose Bowl two years ago - it struck me Watt never really made a play in that game. According to the final stats, he had three tackles and one pass break up.

Read more here: http://sportsblogs.star-telegram.co...the-texans-jj-watt-was-tcu.html#storylink=cpy
 
JCTexan said:
The two plays look night and day different to me. On the Boyd sack, Boyd has a clean pocket to work with but feels pressure that isn't there. Boyd goes to the outside and gift wraps a sack to Clowney. On the Bridgewater play, TB actually has real pressure that's coming unblocked at him. Bridgewater takes two steps into the pocket to avoid the rusher and delivers a nice pass to his WR. That's the difference between being a top five pick & a 5th rounder.
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EDIT: This too

infantrycak said:
Try admonish using that clip as an example of anything special.

Whitney Mercilus had 7 sacks last season which were largely dismissed as opportunistic/scheme and folks want to upgrade him. Is that what you want out of a 1.1 pick?

Pick better clips if you don't want to hear he did nothing special. This is like using a clip of Garrard throwing the hail mary the Texans batted directly to a coverage guy to prove Garrard is a great clutch QB.

Yeah, and anyone but blind followers doesn't stick them up as highlights.
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Boom! :hunter:
 
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IDEXAN said:
That's what I'm talking about ! My boy Jadeveon makes a sack, but his critics on this Board admonish his performance for being merely opportunistic and not totally overwhelming.
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Try admonish using that clip as an example of anything special.

Whitney Mercilus had 7 sacks last season which were largely dismissed as opportunistic/scheme and folks want to upgrade him. Is that what you want out of a 1.1 pick?

Pick better clips if you don't want to hear he did nothing special. This is like using a clip of Garrard throwing the hail mary the Texans batted directly to a coverage guy to prove Garrard is a great clutch QB.

Some of the best players in the game have a less than perfect performance now and then you know.
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Yeah, and anyone but blind followers doesn't stick them up as highlights.
 
PROSPECT PROFILE: JADEVEON CLOWNEY
In 20 years of NFL scouting, I have never evaluated a defensive player with the national hype that Jadeveon Clowney has received. That hype makes it vital to be extremely thorough and detailed when grading. There is no question in my mind that Clowney has the physical tools to be a dominant defender in the NFL, but it is concerning that he did not consistently impact games at his expected level. I have spoken to many NFL scouts about Clowney to see if they agree with my assessment of his talent and skill set, while also gathering information about his character and intangibles. No one I spoke with denied that Clowney has the physical tools to warrant the first overall selection in the draft, but almost half expressed that they would not feel comfortable taking him that high, because they feel there is a significant chance that he'll fail to live up to the hype.

From the first play, it is clear that Clowney... has the perfect combination of height, thickness and long arms for rushing the passer, and in this sense, he reminds me a little of Julius Peppers. His first-step quickness charted out to be the best of the top defensive ends in this year's draft... Not only able to beat pass blocks with his athleticism, Clowney also displays a "slap and arm-over" move to either side that can be devastating when he maintains leverage during rush. While he flashes the ability to make big plays rushing the passer, the shocking thing when evaluating Clowney was that he was drastically more productive against the run, by more than a two-to-one ratio.

...Despite his size, long arms and natural strength, I was still shocked at how easy he made it look, standing up run-blocking offensive linemen in their tracks, torque-ing and tossing them off him to make the tackle. This is rarely seen in a defensive end, and it definitely grabbed my attention.

Even given all of the great skills and athleticism Clowney showed on film, there are some real concerns to his game that were substantiated by NFL scouts. They agreed that Clowney is extremely raw rushing the quarterback, lacking any real pass-rush moves other than his "slap and arm-over" move, which is not polished. He tends to get very high before trying to execute that move, so deliberate in his setup that he gives the move away. He does not consistently rush aggressively, and if the pass blocker stops his initial rush, he tends to get tied up chicken fighting with the blocker. Most players whose motor is inconsistent compete hardest as a pass rusher and quit against run blocks, but Clowney is the opposite, a dominant run defender who rarely makes an impact rushing the passer. Disappointed with his play in junior-season games, I went back and evaluated his play against Michigan at the end of South Carolina's 2012 season, to see if his production was different before his bone spur injury. Unfortunately, there was no difference in terms of his intensity, consistency or overall production. Amazingly, the highlight-reel hit that Clowney made on Michigan running back Vincent Smith was the first play that Clowney made that game, and it came in the third quarter (although it was the first of four consecutive plays he made).

Although Clowney's on-field effort is a concern, scouts definitely have more issues with him off the field. Every scout that I spoke with told me that the people at South Carolina speak highly of Clowney as a good, decent young man. While he is a bit immature, he treats the people within the football department well. Rumors persist that he dictates when and how much he wants to practice, which raises the question of what type of effort he will put into being a professional. NFL people compared him to two different players: Julius Peppers and Greg Hardy. Peppers is similar physically to Clowney, weighing over 270 pounds in college, with excellent height and length and elite athleticism, and he's too showed hot-and-cold effort and production in college. The similarities to Hardy are unmistakable, as both players exploded onto the college scene with dominant first seasons but then disappointed during their final college season.

Given that he has the talent to be a dominating defender, one who can change games with surprising ease, Clowney's tendency to disappear for long stretches is maddening. Although I would be very nervous drafting Clowney in the first half of the first round, I have no doubt that some team will gamble on him within the top five selections. Players with his skill set come along maybe once every 10 years, and Clowney has the potential to be a Hall of Fame defensive player.
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snipped, read the complete text here: http://www.sportsonearth.com/articl...n-clowney-elite-defensive-skills-inconsistent
 
In 20 years of NFL scouting, I have never evaluated a defensive player with the national hype that Jadeveon Clowney has received.
******
Right away this guy has zero cred with me, because he apparently never heard of Reggie Bush who got such an inflated rating and over assessment of his value in the NFL he practically makes Clowney, who's vastly talented with incredible upside, as a player by comparison who's under the radar.
 
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