Chris Mortensen on Carr in his chat

[TwinSisters]

DC is our QB this year and expect his growth in the new system to be persistently monitored by the staff. I have no idea what their timeline or metrics will look like to measure him, but I would expect that he will get a full year and then it will be decision time come June 1 of 2007.

dodger!



I agree completely. That is what is most likely going to happen.

But what do 'you' feel like is the right thing to do?

You being defined as the Kaiser Toro. Your opinion. Certainly your opinion isn't whatever they do is great, so long as my beer doesn't get warm.

So you agree that he gets one season ( I think that is a gimmie though ).

You do not agree that Pro Bowl caliber play should mesh into whether or not he should be getting 7+ million a season? I take it that is your opinion because of the misdirection counter play you just called.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

dodger!



I agree completely. That is what is most likely going to happen.

But what do 'you' feel like is the right thing to do?

You being defined as the Kaiser Toro. Your opinion. Certainly your opinion isn't whatever they do is great, so long as my beer doesn't get warm.

So you agree that he gets one season ( I think that is a gimmie though ).

You do not agree that Pro Bowl caliber play should mesh into whether or not he should be getting 7+ million a season? I take it that is your opinion because of the misdirection counter play you just called.

My past posts speak for themselves on this worn out topic and I have committed to myself, and some other posters, not to provide my opinions on DC, as an individual contributor, until the ball is hiked. Sorry for the virtual dodgeball but my position has been overstated exponentially.

 

[TwinSisters]

My past posts speak for themselves on this worn out topic and I have committed to myself, and some other posters, not to provide my opinions on DC, as an individual contributor, until the ball is hiked. Sorry for the virtual dodgeball but my position has been overstated exponentially.

Ok fair enough. I am still getting around to diggin into the wood pile, so to speak... to see what has already been chopped on.

I figured since Mort brought it up again, it was worth looking at it again.
( for me )

 

[Jwwillis]

Yeah I was going to start a thread on this, but I wanted to wait until after the draft ( to filter out the emotional cheerleader factor )

( not saying there is anything wrong with emotions or cheerleaders though. That's fine and they are fine. I cry too. )

When does it become a Carr problem or QB problem?

I had a hard time last season looking at Carr, when I watched Brett Favre and some others play. Toss that in with the Harrington implosion.

Can you blame it all on the OL? Favre is old and had a horrible line last season. His support problems were close to our own. They had to go 4 to 6 deep to find a running back to start.

Carr is young and Favre is on his last leg. Certainly if you cannot expect your quarterback to be better than a HOFer, you could at least expect him to be doing better than an ageing 'about to' retire HOFer.... but it didn't look that way.

Now I will tell you that Carr is my man, but when do I check myself and say... I have a worm instead of a butterfly? ( when it's past the time that I should be seeing wings )

Does anybody know of place that counts dropped balls? Is that it?

Carr problems:

1.) Holds onto the ball to long trying to make something happen.

2.) Not very good at avoiding the rush IN the pocket.

3.) Happy feet, Gun Shy, and does not chk off more than 2 recievers.

4.) Leadership skills questionable

Carr Disadvantages:

1.)Started as a Rookie

2.) On a 1st year expansion team:

A. No depth

B. No Cohesivness (sp)

C. Having to work with an O. not suited for the available talent.

As for Carr 1,2,3 and 4 were not listed as concerns coming out of college. I content they are a nasty bi-product of A, B, C.

Let look at each problem:

1.) Carr was on a losing team with no debth and only 1 true pro bowl caliber teammate on O (Johnson, lucky he is a WR). But without a legit #2 WR Johnson was taken out of the game by opposing D's, also injuries.

2.) I dont think Carr ever had to avoid a pass rush like what he has seen in the NFL. But this is something he is going to have to work on.

3.) This one is easy. Carr wasn't like that when he came into the league. Right now Carr reminds me of Fran Tarkington and Archie Manning. The diffrence is the Vikings and Saints were not expansion teams when they played. Carr has an average of 1.7secs to make a play or get rid of the ball.

4.) It will come with wins

Looking at disadvantages

Now, last season was a bust mainly because of A,B,C. Lot-o-injuries, crappy O coaching, and a O-line that has never had the same guys at the same positions 2yrs in a row. Same on D. Beat up front 5, 3-4 did not suit the talent on hand. Seconday is hard to judge since we did not give ANY QB trouble. Remember the Bills game?

I'll remind all of you that there are a lot of great QB's that never won the big one. Archie Manning is a perfect example since we are talking about Carr.
How about Dan Marino? There are also a lot of QB's drafted with high expectations but it took 8+ yrs. for them to win a championship.

Plunket
Kelly
Elway

Does anybody remember or know how long it took Bradshaw to be succesful?
As I recall Steeler fans wanted Bradshaw gone.

Does anybody remember how long Tampa Bay, San Diego, Dallas, New England, were around before they had any success or won a championship? Or even worse, what if the Texans become like the Oilers, Lions,Cardnals and get to the superbowl 1 time in like 45yrs. Or get into the playoffs on an average of twice a decade.

The Texans will get better. The owner is 1st rate.

Lastly, experiance out weighs youth and athleticism at the QB position in the NFL. So the Farve, Carr comparison is a little off base IMO. Sure they didnt have a great o-line but they also lost Green to injury, also they only won 2 more games than the Texans did. They also have been around since the NFL was formed, meaning they have had a system and 10+yrs worth of drafts to work with for there current team.

 

[TwinSisters]

The only reason I brought Favre up with Carr was to try and compare a known good QB with a bad offensive line and somewhat suspect help ( Gado turned out to be ok, but he had problems with WR's; one wants a trade because of Favre )

Not so much to expect Carr to be Favre, but to see what is different.
---

The Bradshaw example is pretty neat. I was thinking about that too. He's a guy that was never really super accurate and he's considered a HOFer ( he is a HOFer ). I am not sure if you can compare Carr with him because of the time difference though.

---

I am thinking the dropped balls issue with Carr is a myth. Yes it is possible that once he figured out who couldn't catch, he stopped throwing that way as much, but still his dropped pass stats are not higher than most of the other QBs in the NFL.
---

I am not so sure how much the expansion franchise factor plays in the Texans now and what to expect from Carr in the next season or two.

Think about the Bengals. Surely after spending 10 years in the gutter they would be on the same level as an expansion team, but they picked up Carson Palmer #1 pick over all ...added Chad Johnson. And bam they are winning.

( that's not the whole story... but that's not the point. The point is that the Bengals were a crap hole no good for nothing not worth a damn laughing stock franchise for ten years and then turned it up at about the same time the Texans hit the scene. I'll add a short story to this soliloquy. I witnessed a guy getting laughed at for wearing a Bengals shirt in a diner a few years ago. Just some old guy trying to enjoy his eggs and bacon and he was getting laughed at... it was like a contagious yawn... one guy saw the shirt and started to laugh..and then another guy looked to see what he was laughing about and started laughing.. I heard them laugh and looked to see what was going on and started to chuckle myself. That's how bad it was for the Bengals )

 

[Jwwillis]

The only reason I brought Favre up with Carr was to try and compare a known good QB with a bad offensive line and somewhat suspect help ( Gado turned out to be ok, but he had problems with WR's; one wants a trade because of Favre )

Not so much to expect Carr to be Favre, but to see what is different.

The diffrence is a decade of expierance and as bad as the Packers line was it was still better than the Texans. Also, there are 11 players on the field and a good team should have 22 starter quality players. 2 deep. I dont think the Packers have a whole bunch more talent than the Texans at the starter position. It is the depth that is hard to achieve in 4yrs.

---

The Bradshaw example is pretty neat. I was thinking about that too. He's a guy that was never really super accurate and he's considered a HOFer ( he is a HOFer ). I am not sure if you can compare Carr with him because of the time difference though.

Comparing Carr to Farve isnt any more out of line than comparing Bradshaw and Carr.


---

I am thinking the dropped balls issue with Carr is a myth. Yes it is possible that once he figured out who couldn't catch, he stopped throwing that way as much, but still his dropped pass stats are not higher than most of the other QBs in the NFL.

agreed
---

I am not so sure how much the expansion franchise factor plays in the Texans now and what to expect from Carr in the next season or two.

They should be in good shape after the next 2 seasons. Does ANYBODY remember the 5yr building program?

Think about the Bengals. Surely after spending 10 years in the gutter they would be on the same level as an expansion team, but they picked up Carson Palmer #1 pick over all ...added Chad Johnson. And bam they are winning.

Ownership plays a big roll in this, as well as astute player evaluation and cap managment.Remember the Oilers were one of the original teams to join the NFL after the merger. The Oilers won championships as well as Detroit when they were in the AFL, then nothing after the merger. This is why i am so puzzled with the "Whats wrong with the Texans." threads. I mean why does everbody think 3-5yrs to get to the playoffs and then a Superbowl shortly thereafter? The truth is we will be lucky if the Texans EVER make it to the Superbowl.

( that's not the whole story... but that's not the point. The point is that the Bengals were a crap hole no good for nothing not worth a damn laughing stock franchise for ten years and then turned it up at about the same time the Texans hit the scene. I'll add a short story to this soliloquy. I witnessed a guy getting laughed at for wearing a Bengals shirt in a diner a few years ago. Just some old guy trying to enjoy his eggs and bacon and he was getting laughed at... it was like a contagious yawn... one guy saw the shirt and started to laugh..and then another guy looked to see what he was laughing about and started laughing.. I heard them laugh and looked to see what was going on and started to chuckle myself. That's how bad it was for the Bengals

Thats absurd. Just because my home team is bad doesnt mean i wont support them with t-shirts caps etc. Besides the Bengals have had more success as a franchise than any Houston NFL franchise. As a matter of fact ANY Houston sports franchise except possably the Rockets. The Bengals have also had more success than many teams that have been around longer, Detroit, Houston,St. Louis/Arizona, NO Saints, NY Jets. Also, the Browns havent done much lately either.

The Texans will get better fast. They had more talent than 2-14 to begin with.

 

[thunderkyss]

The only reason I brought Favre up with Carr was to try and compare a known good QB with a bad offensive line and somewhat suspect help ( Gado turned out to be ok, but he had problems with WR's; one wants a trade because of Favre )

Not so much to expect Carr to be Favre, but to see what is different.
---

Let's go with that... Bret had bad offensive line play.... Carr had bad offensive line play... Andre got hurt, was out a few games... Bret's main target also didn't play 16 games...... Carr had a 1000 yrd back. Houston avg'd 113 yards/game, Greenbay avg'd 84.5 yards/game.

so..... that's about even right....... two great QBs, on bad teams....
David Carr..... passing yards: 2488....... 60.5% completion..... 155 yards/game.... 14 TDs

Brett Farve...... passing yards: 3881.... 61.3% completion... 242 yards/game.... 20 TDs...

Now...... should be easy to see the difference between a ProBowler on a bad team, and an average QB on a bad team.

 

[infantrycak]

Now...... should be easy to see the difference between a ProBowler on a bad team, and an average QB on a bad team.

Right you are... David Carr--TD-INT/Attempts = 1.2%. Brett Favre--TD-INT/Attempts = -2.42%.

Good job--clear conclusion, a probowler on a bad team is worse than an average QB on a bad team. Hmmm. that doesn't sound right...maybe the 2nd one should say worse team...wait, that kind of analysis is too complex. Nah, draft VY--whoohooo. (Geez, and I really like VY but this has gotten ridiculous).

 

[thunderkyss]

Right you are... David Carr--TD-INT/Attempts = 1.2%. Brett Favre--TD-INT/Attempts = -2.42%.

Good job--clear conclusion, a probowler on a bad team is worse than an average QB on a bad team. Hmmm. that doesn't sound right...maybe the 2nd one should say worse team...wait, that kind of analysis is too complex. Nah, draft VY--whoohooo. (Geez, and I really like VY but this has gotten ridiculous).

My take, is that Bret Gave his recievers more opportunities to make plays, move the team down the field....

Bret wants to win, and works that way..... I guess, Carr is worried about his stats........ TD-Int/attempts........ wooooooo........ I'd take the wins, the yards, the first downs...... I'll take a few Int's sprinkled here and there...

 

[Master Po]

Who is Bret?

 

[thunderkyss]

Who is Bret?

if I type two t's in a row like that, it sets off my carpal tunnel thing...... hence, Brett(ouch) becomes Bret......... lettuce(ouch) becomes letuce........ shew....

 

[Carr Bombed]

Bret wants to win, and works that way

That has nothing to do with what happened with Brett last year. Ever since Brett threw that ball up in the air against the Eagles to blow the playoff game a couple of years ago, he hasn't been the same. I love Brett, but I'm tired of people making excuses for his poor decisions. If he plays poorly he doesn't have to worry about someone above him ripping in to him, Brett's problem is he hasn't been the same since Holmgren left. Holmgren kept him in check and since his departure Brett has reverted back to the player that Holmgren pulled out of games and benched. Farve's gun slinger mentality,AKA "Bad decision making and throwing into double coverage" is a big reason for his bad season. Yes Brett had to deal with alot of injuries on his team, but that doesn't explain throwing the ball up for grads, he needs to stop forcing the issue. I'll take a QB that will rather take a sack than just throw a football up for grabs.

 

[TwinSisters]

Thats absurd. Just because my home team is bad doesnt mean i wont support them with t-shirts caps etc.

nah... you are reading that all wrong. I am just illustrating how bad it was for the Bengals from 1991-2002. That's a full decade of being losers. It has nothing to do with what shirt you should wear.

The reason for bringing it up is to say 'well the Bengals at 10 years of being losers shouldn't be that far off from a team starting from scratch like Houston.' Unless you are going to say losing all that time somehow is teaching them something. Doubt it. Possible, but I doubt it.

It's not to say they have the exact same conditions either, however Mortensen put Carson Palmer and David Carr on the same level... hence Bengal reference.

 

[infantrycak]

My take, is that Bret Gave his recievers more opportunities to make plays, move the team down the field....

Bret wants to win, and works that way..... I guess, Carr is worried about his stats........ TD-Int/attempts........ wooooooo........ I'd take the wins, the yards, the first downs...... I'll take a few Int's sprinkled here and there...

My guess is this kind of comment comes more from wanting to bash than any informed guess. Want to bet on what the answer is on whether Capers/Pendry wanted Carr airing it out on a hope with a few int's sprinkled here and there? Yeah, that couldn't have been part of the equation--it must have been Carr worrying about his stats. C'mon, you do some good analysis, but the when in doubt bash Carr thing is overdone.

 

[Jwwillis]

nah... you are reading that all wrong. I am just illustrating how bad it was for the Bengals from 1991-2002. That's a full decade of being losers. It has nothing to do with what shirt you should wear.

The reason for bringing it up is to say 'well the Bengals at 10 years of being losers shouldn't be that far off from a team starting from scratch like Houston.' Unless you are going to say losing all that time somehow is teaching them something. Doubt it. Possible, but I doubt it.

It's not to say they have the exact same conditions either, however Mortensen put Carson Palmer and David Carr on the same level... hence Bengal reference.

My reply was misleading as well. Absurd is a bit strong. Man, 10yrs being losers is bad but not unusual.

Lets look at current SB winners and determine how long it took them to get there or get back.

Patriots - 3 SB wins, 4 appearances - 85,02,03,05
It took 26 years for them to get to the SB and 43years to win one.

Professional football arrived in New England on Nov. 16, 1959, when a group of local businessmen, led by former public relations executive William H. "Billy" Sullivan Jr. was awarded the eighth and final franchise in the new American Football League. One week later, Northwestern University running back Ron Burton was selected as the franchise's first draft choice and Syracuse running back Gerhardt Schwedes was selected as the team's first territorial choice.

In1982, Schaefer Stadium was renamed Sullivan Stadium. In 1985, the Patriots gained a wild-card berth in the playoffs and went on to defeat the New York Jets, Los Angeles Raiders and the Miami Dolphins on the road to win their first AFC Championship and a trip to Super Bowl XX. Unfortunately, the Patriots faced one of the dominant teams of the '80s as the Chicago Bears rolled to a 46-10 Super Bowl victory. Following that season, Patriot greats John Hannah and Julius Adams retired.

Steelers - 5 SB wins, 6 appearances - 75,76,79,80,96,06 all wins except for the '96 loss to Dallas. You can see that after free agency it took 16 and 10 years to get back to the dance. Also it took them 8 yrs to post a winning record.

After founding the Pirates in 1933, Rooney watched his club struggle through its first seven seasons with just 22 wins and five different head coaches. While home games were played at Forbes Field, Rooney often took his team to such cities as Johnstown, Latrobe, Youngstown, New Orleans, and Louisville in the 1930s due to competition with baseball and college football.

In 1940 Rooney changed the team name to the Pittsburgh Steelers, representing the heritage of Pittsburgh. The first winning record in the organization's history came in 1942 when head coach Walt Kiesling led the Steelers to a 7-4 finish with the league-leading rushing of rookie Bill Dudley. But the next year Dudley joined the Armed Forces along with many other NFL players as the nation went to war. With rosters depleted, Rooney merged the Steelers with the Philadelphia Eagles in 1943 (Phil-Pitt "Steagles") and with the Chicago Cardinals (Card-Pitt) in 1944.

Denver - 2 SB wins, 6 appearances

Established 1960, 1st playoff appearance 1977, 1st SB appearance 1978, 1st SB win 1998. It took 17yrs to appear in the playoffs, 18yrs to get to the SB and 38yrs to win one.

Im running out of time ( i was gonna do the last 8 teams that have won the last 10 SB's ). However, the theme is the same on all.

BTW. The Bengals had 11 wins last year, the same as the Steelers. The Browns were in last place. Are you sure that guy wasnt wearing a Browns shirt?

 

[TwinSisters]

Lets look at current SB winners and determine how long it took them to get there or get back.

Im running out of time ( i was gonna do the last 8 teams that have won the last 10 SB's ). However, the theme is the same on all.

BTW. The Bengals had 11 wins last year, the same as the Steelers. The Browns were in last place. Are you sure that guy wasnt wearing a Browns shirt?

That's kinda what my point is. The Bengals are winning now, when their club was in the same shape as the Texans back in 2001. ( not exactly the same shape, but losers )

On the Super Bowls: We are not talking about winning Super Bowls. Palmer/Manning/Carr/Couch went overall #1 and only one QB is considered a bust. Most of the level headed fellas don't expect a Super Bowl win every year, but they do expect to be relieved of nesting the #1 overall pick in the draft.

EDIT: I better add... Looking at Carr has nothing to do with who is picked up in the (#*%^&^$#&* draft this season.

"It was to surmount the stigma once articulated by LaDainian Tomlinson of the San Diego Chargers, who said, "You play not to get laughed at and not to be called the Cincinnati Bengals of the league." "

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060422/SPT03/604220382/1022

 

[thunderkyss]

My guess is this kind of comment comes more from wanting to bash than any informed guess. Want to bet on what the answer is on whether Capers/Pendry wanted Carr airing it out on a hope with a few int's sprinkled here and there? Yeah, that couldn't have been part of the equation--it must have been Carr worrying about his stats. C'mon, you do some good analysis, but the when in doubt bash Carr thing is overdone.

So, to clarify....... are you saying the pass is more likely to be intercepted, imcomplete, or a completion??
Yes, it is a bit of speculation on my part.

I think we had this discussion before.

Bret has more INTs that Carr.... so what.... he also has more TDs.. more yards, more wins, and what ever other stats I've mentioned. I mentioned those stats to show, illustrate what it looks like to have a proBowl... future HOF QB behind a bad offensive line, with no running game, only one recieving threat, compared to an avg at best QB behind a poor offensive line...... a productive running game, a real threat at WR.

 

[Texans86]

So, to clarify....... are you saying the pass is more likely to be intercepted, imcomplete, or a completion??
Yes, it is a bit of speculation on my part.

I think we had this discussion before.

Bret has more INTs that Carr.... so what.... he also has more TDs.. more yards, more wins, and what ever other stats I've mentioned. I mentioned those stats to show, illustrate what it looks like to have a proBowl... future HOF QB behind a bad offensive line, with no running game, only one recieving threat, compared to an avg at best QB behind a poor offensive line...... a productive running game, a real threat at WR.

I think it has something to do with the coaching mindset. Yes, we will not throw as many TDs, but we won't have as many INTs either. The risk/reward factor comes into play. Capers and Co. didn't want to make big risks to try to win, they wanted to be conservative. Since Favre took more risks, he made enough completions to make up for his INTs. The playcallling also has something to do with it.

 

[sprtsfanatic]

I like Drew Bledsoe... he's a ProBowler.... he puts up good stats, doesn't make too many stupid mistakes.

But when he's messing up, I'll tell you.

Same with Peyton, Same with Donovan, and Culpepper.

Put any of those guys on bad teams, and I can tell you when they are playing well, or when they are playing bad. When they are lifting their teams, and when they are dragging them down.

Same thing with David. He may very well be as talented & smart as Peyton & Carson............ but he played very poorly the second half of 2004, & all of 2005(well most of it).

Put it this way. Drew Bledsoe is good enough to get a team to the SuperBowl. Drew Bledsoe is good enough to win a SuperBowl. & while he did take his team to the SuperBowl once, and he owns an NFL Championship ring........ he's never won the superbowl, and time is running out.

....eh...huh????
and this rambling was going where???

 

[sprtsfanatic]

[/quote]So whose got more Talent?? Joey Galloway, or Peyton Manning..... Galloway has breakaway speed, Manning doesn't.[/QUOTE]

That was the lamest coment I've seen you post...the comment that you replied at least compared two players at the same position...you could atleast give a decent argument.

I usually enjoy reading your post and hearing most of your opinions on the Texans but your past couple of post have me wondering what in the hell your smoking.....where's the real thunder and what have you done with him???

 

[thunderkyss]

....eh...huh????
and this rambling was going where???

how long we gonna wait??