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Chris Mortensen on Carr in his chat
- Thread starter dhaNim
- Start date
Errant Hothy
Hypermediocrity
Eric Warth Texas
Why would the Texans pay so much for Carr when he has not proved to amount to much,. they gave him a 8 mil roster bonus. Wouldnt they money been netter spent elsewhere..
CHRIS MORTENSEN
It's funny, as I've spoken to these proven talent evaluators in the league, the consensus among them is that there have been only three true top-pick quarterback talents since 1998 - Peyton Manning, David Carr and Carson Palmer. Carr was mentioned by almost all of them. They had other issues on offense.
Might shed some light on why Carr was kept. This is from Mort's current chat session.
Why would the Texans pay so much for Carr when he has not proved to amount to much,. they gave him a 8 mil roster bonus. Wouldnt they money been netter spent elsewhere..
CHRIS MORTENSEN
It's funny, as I've spoken to these proven talent evaluators in the league, the consensus among them is that there have been only three true top-pick quarterback talents since 1998 - Peyton Manning, David Carr and Carson Palmer. Carr was mentioned by almost all of them. They had other issues on offense.
Might shed some light on why Carr was kept. This is from Mort's current chat session.
Errant Hothy
Hypermediocrity
More about the talent on hand:
Dan, Pittsburgh
I know it sounds like I'm beating a dead horse, but how could the Texans NOT trade away Reggie Bush to pick up a couple O-linemen to protect their QB?
CHRIS MORTENSEN
The Broncos' system that Kubiak has brought to the Texans has never called for stud O-linemen. The running game offers the protection; also, the talent on hand is better than most people think.
Dan, Pittsburgh
I know it sounds like I'm beating a dead horse, but how could the Texans NOT trade away Reggie Bush to pick up a couple O-linemen to protect their QB?
CHRIS MORTENSEN
The Broncos' system that Kubiak has brought to the Texans has never called for stud O-linemen. The running game offers the protection; also, the talent on hand is better than most people think.
MightyTExan
It's go time!
That's cool. I posted this in the NFL section, but I think this is an interesting comment considering how similiar Carr and Harrington's careers are:
Harrington was interviewed on the draft show last night:
They did a quick interview. He said he likes competition. And then something to the effect that his problems in Detroit were because he was just handed the starting job and not having a good team.
Harrington was interviewed on the draft show last night:
They did a quick interview. He said he likes competition. And then something to the effect that his problems in Detroit were because he was just handed the starting job and not having a good team.
Chris Mortensen is a good friend of mine and is one of the best sources for NFL football. He doesn't have all the biased crap ESPN has in baseball, etc. Gammons and those clowns are all Boston Red Sox fans, but Chris does a good job. his son is the 3rd string QB here at Arkansas and Chris lives in Bella Vista, just north of Fayetteville. He thinks the Texans will take Bush with the first pick.
TwinSisters
Veteran
Yeah I was going to start a thread on this, but I wanted to wait until after the draft ( to filter out the emotional cheerleader factor )
( not saying there is anything wrong with emotions or cheerleaders though. That's fine and they are fine. I cry too. )
When does it become a Carr problem or QB problem?
I had a hard time last season looking at Carr, when I watched Brett Favre and some others play. Toss that in with the Harrington implosion.
Can you blame it all on the OL? Favre is old and had a horrible line last season. His support problems were close to our own. They had to go 4 to 6 deep to find a running back to start.
Carr is young and Favre is on his last leg. Certainly if you cannot expect your quarterback to be better than a HOFer, you could at least expect him to be doing better than an ageing 'about to' retire HOFer.... but it didn't look that way.
Now I will tell you that Carr is my man, but when do I check myself and say... I have a worm instead of a butterfly? ( when it's past the time that I should be seeing wings )
Does anybody know of place that counts dropped balls? Is that it?
( not saying there is anything wrong with emotions or cheerleaders though. That's fine and they are fine. I cry too. )
When does it become a Carr problem or QB problem?
I had a hard time last season looking at Carr, when I watched Brett Favre and some others play. Toss that in with the Harrington implosion.
Can you blame it all on the OL? Favre is old and had a horrible line last season. His support problems were close to our own. They had to go 4 to 6 deep to find a running back to start.
Carr is young and Favre is on his last leg. Certainly if you cannot expect your quarterback to be better than a HOFer, you could at least expect him to be doing better than an ageing 'about to' retire HOFer.... but it didn't look that way.
Now I will tell you that Carr is my man, but when do I check myself and say... I have a worm instead of a butterfly? ( when it's past the time that I should be seeing wings )
Does anybody know of place that counts dropped balls? Is that it?
TwinSisters
Veteran
El Tejano said:
So are you saying this it then? If he doesn't fly like a champ this season, it's a problem with the quarterback.
chuckm
Veteran
Mort's take for those that don't have access to radio ....
Texan's are gathering data and will begin negotiating with both Bush and Williams ...... they are getting "virtually no action" for a trade out of #1 ... teams across the league are split on the best player in the draft between Bush and Williams .... he doesn't think they can trade out .... Texans have called the Jets 3 times inquiring about a trade only to be rebuffed each time ... thinks the Texans will take Bush ....
Texan's are gathering data and will begin negotiating with both Bush and Williams ...... they are getting "virtually no action" for a trade out of #1 ... teams across the league are split on the best player in the draft between Bush and Williams .... he doesn't think they can trade out .... Texans have called the Jets 3 times inquiring about a trade only to be rebuffed each time ... thinks the Texans will take Bush ....
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
TwinSisters said:
Carr had 21 drops last year or 5% of overall attempts or 12.6% of incompletions--from Stats, Inc.
I'm honestly up in the air about Carr. My eyes have seen many troublesome tendencies in his abilities, but my ears are being told that any QB will look horrible on bad teams with disfunctional coaching.
I really want to believe the dude has got the goods, but the proof is in action, not words. So he's our QB, and I'll root for him...but I just have this nagging doubt about the guy that I hope gets put to rest next season.
But better football minds that my feeble one have said that Carr has got the talent, so I suppose only time will tell.
I really want to believe the dude has got the goods, but the proof is in action, not words. So he's our QB, and I'll root for him...but I just have this nagging doubt about the guy that I hope gets put to rest next season.
But better football minds that my feeble one have said that Carr has got the talent, so I suppose only time will tell.
U4ikrob
Guitar Junky
El Tejano said:
And thankfully we moved on from Palmer/Capers and we still will get to see the results of their coaching this year since Dom is in Miami and Palmer is up in Dallas with Parcells again. Now we can see how good/or bad their coaching really is since both are in positions to make choices again. I'm really interested to see if Palmer succeeds or flops with Bledsoe and the Cowboys -Should make for a real interesting game come October.
IMO - A lot of players on this club need to prove some things on the field this year to keep their jobs.
That's fine, and reassuring I guess even though I'm never that impressed with these anonymous sources the media has.Hoth-Boy said:
But the endorsement that really means something to me is Kubiaks. His knowledge and credentials are well documeted. And his opinion of Carr is
well known. Its the one that really means something to me.
I like Drew Bledsoe... he's a ProBowler.... he puts up good stats, doesn't make too many stupid mistakes.
But when he's messing up, I'll tell you.
Same with Peyton, Same with Donovan, and Culpepper.
Put any of those guys on bad teams, and I can tell you when they are playing well, or when they are playing bad. When they are lifting their teams, and when they are dragging them down.
Same thing with David. He may very well be as talented & smart as Peyton & Carson............ but he played very poorly the second half of 2004, & all of 2005(well most of it).
Put it this way. Drew Bledsoe is good enough to get a team to the SuperBowl. Drew Bledsoe is good enough to win a SuperBowl. & while he did take his team to the SuperBowl once, and he owns an NFL Championship ring........ he's never won the superbowl, and time is running out.
But when he's messing up, I'll tell you.
Same with Peyton, Same with Donovan, and Culpepper.
Put any of those guys on bad teams, and I can tell you when they are playing well, or when they are playing bad. When they are lifting their teams, and when they are dragging them down.
Same thing with David. He may very well be as talented & smart as Peyton & Carson............ but he played very poorly the second half of 2004, & all of 2005(well most of it).
Put it this way. Drew Bledsoe is good enough to get a team to the SuperBowl. Drew Bledsoe is good enough to win a SuperBowl. & while he did take his team to the SuperBowl once, and he owns an NFL Championship ring........ he's never won the superbowl, and time is running out.
Errant Hothy
Hypermediocrity
Nighthawk said:
Yup, cause we all know you know more then Mort or the magority of the NFL talent guys he's quoting.
Why is it so hard for some of y'all to accept that Carr might be better then you think, and if given half a cahnce he ight just prove you wrong?
jaayteetx
All Pro
Hoth-Boy said:Yup, cause we all know you know more then Mort or the magority of the NFL talent guys he's quoting.
Why is it so hard for some of y'all to accept that Carr might be better then you think, and if given half a cahnce he ight just prove you wrong?
Took the words right outta my mouth..
Hoth-Boy said:Yup, cause we all know you know more then Mort or the magority of the NFL talent guys he's quoting.
Why is it so hard for some of y'all to accept that Carr might be better then you think, and if given half a cahnce he ight just prove you wrong?
This answer doesn't necessarily relate to the Carr situation or any specific poster, but in general I've found that:
It is very hard for many people to change an opinion about some of these things. They may think it makes them look unintelligent to change their minds. In reality, only stubbornness is demonstrated when they hold their opinion no matter what evidence is presented. Many times they make up so much stuff to support their failing argument that they just look silly. For instance one that sticks in my mind from these boards:
"Reggie Bush has too much speed to be successful in the NFL. He'll get to the line before the hole opens up". Now that's a classic.
Don't worry though, when it becomes painfully obvious (in hindsight) they were wrong most will join the "knew it all along" bunch and no one will call them on it because everybody is happy.
Before everyone gets in an uproar, let me say the majority of people on this board try to argue their point of view with logic and some presentation of facts or solid opinion. Most of the time, people can honestly come to different conclusions. This is what makes discussion interesting - the opportunity to broaden yourself or convince someone else.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
That is what I wanted to hear from the grapevine, Kubiak thinks that Carr will be incrementally better and the Oline was better than the past staff thought. Add in a #2 WR, a #1 pass catching TE, a FB that fits the Kubiak systrem and a new Center that can be a coach on the field for his former coach.
Now does anyone truly believe that we should spend 7-8 million on an uproven RB when we have made so many additions to the offense and the players that have been retained are expected to raise their game another level as well? Spend on the defensive side of the ball, the offense will be great next year with Carr zinging the ball and handing off to Davis and Morency.
Now does anyone truly believe that we should spend 7-8 million on an uproven RB when we have made so many additions to the offense and the players that have been retained are expected to raise their game another level as well? Spend on the defensive side of the ball, the offense will be great next year with Carr zinging the ball and handing off to Davis and Morency.
CoastalTexan
Waterboy
Look what Carr did to St. Louis in the first half calling his own plays, 24 points in ONE QUARTER. Then Pendry took over and we only scored a couple field goals in the second. I'd say Carr had the ability, just not the coaching.
CoastalTexan said:
he didn't call his own plays in the St Louis game, that was Pendry.
TwinSisters
Veteran
Hoth-Boy said:Yup, cause we all know you know more then Mort or the magority of the NFL talent guys he's quoting.
Why is it so hard for some of y'all to accept that Carr might be better then you think, and if given half a cahnce he ight just prove you wrong?
The second line item is what I want to get to.
( I don't know what to tell you other then humans are humans and I wouldn't be so hasty with experts. I wager you would take me up on more then a few dollars that a squad of Brownies could out coach at least one former NFL coach )
So I am thinking right now exactly what you are asking. Why is it hard for me to believe in what Mort is saying when I did to begin with before he said it?
The word is bad coaching, bad offense line, bad team.
So I really can't check myself on Carson and Manning. Carson got his Pro Bowl on the third run. Manning only really looked bad his first season, but still shined at times.
I took the Stats. Inc link and checked
Favre - bad line, bad team, ( coach got fired, most likely other issues )
Harrington - bad line, bad team, bad coaching ( supposedly )
Carr - bad line, bad team ( I don't agree ), bad coaching ( I am still learning )
The stats are telling me anything. Carr and Harrington have fairly close ratio's depending on how you bend the difference of attempts and games played.
The big difference I saw was this OTHER category... not sure what's up with that.
Favre had a few more attempts with the same dropped pass count and a higher poor throw count.
( granted I am not breaking down the strength of schedule )
SOoo I am asking you... where do you lay it down?
"if given half a chance he might just prove you wrong?"
We gave him 4 seasons already. Is it one more? Or is two more because he needs 'time' to adjust? I get nervous when I have to say 2 more, because then I am saying I will give him 6 seasons to shine like a pro-bowler.
the question is not so much about whether or not he is or isn't worth a damn... the question is how do I know? And how much time should be given to find out?
PokerStar
Waterboy
Most people on this board do not dispute Carr's ability, but his production. I think Carr is an awesome QB that lost faith in his coaches and it showed the whole team over as the seasons and sacks wore on. He is the type of QB that needs to be pretty aggressive to be successful and he became gunshy for whatever reason.
In other football cities most fans think the Carr is a very talented QB. I hope that this year and next Kubiak and Carr develop this team into the playoff team we all want to see.
In other football cities most fans think the Carr is a very talented QB. I hope that this year and next Kubiak and Carr develop this team into the playoff team we all want to see.
the wonger need food
All Pro
CoastalTexan said:
It was against Arizona. Carr had a total of 150 yards passing and zero TD's for the game. He audibled to the offtackle run just about every play in that half. It was by no means an All Pro performance... just another example of evisionist history.
PokerStar said:
Yeah, that's what they say. & will continue to say as long as Carr is on our team. Ask them what they'll give you for him, and they'll rattle off the names of 2, maybe 3 players that shouldn't be on any NFL team.
PokerStar said:
I think he will be more aggressive this year. I think this will lead to some big plays over the course of the season, but it will also lead to a few more interceptions. I think we should all be prepared for this increase and not see that one stat as an indicator of failure by itself, especially if the sack totals go down as well. We have some big play athletes. We need to challenge them to make plays.
Bear
Practice Squad
I'm just using this as an example for those of you that are native Houstonians and can relate to this.
Growing up here..
1) You thought Rice Military would never be more than a used car lot
2) You never, ever would be around the Dome at night unless you were visiting the "blue stop" on Main
3) Downtown, as a whole, closed at 5:00 pm except for the bums
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Carr. I'm just saying that impressions can last a looooooong time. Even if things are changing, you still view it as the same.
Growing up here..
1) You thought Rice Military would never be more than a used car lot
2) You never, ever would be around the Dome at night unless you were visiting the "blue stop" on Main
3) Downtown, as a whole, closed at 5:00 pm except for the bums
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Carr. I'm just saying that impressions can last a looooooong time. Even if things are changing, you still view it as the same.
Reddevil63
Veteran
No, that was Carr. He called his plays at the line for the first half and scored 24 points. In the 2nd half Pendry took over to protect the lead and the rest is history.thunderkyss said:
Davis is a VERY talented RB. Bush is unproven of course at the NFL level. Right now it seems utterly arrogant to say that DD is not "even close" to the talent level of Bush. I'd say he's not even close to the hyped, perceived value of Bush in the media. Only Chuck Norris or Ditka compare to Bush on that level. That's all.
Reddevil63
Veteran
Its not arrogance, Davis doesnt have near the break away speed of Bush or the ability to make people miss in the open field. Davis is a decent back, Bush has the physical abilities to be a great homerun hitting back.Caphorn said:
eltoro
Practice Squad
Caphorn said:
Davis is "average" NFL talent - very good for a fourth round pick, but nothing special. While I agree that Bush has to prove himself at the next level, I would rather start a season with him in the backfield than DD - just my personal preference. However, next year when DD goes down to yet another injury and we have Morency "tearing it up," we very well might regret not taking Bush...
No disrespect Red, but when Bush was faced with a speedy D like Texas he ran off a whopping 83 yards. Against an NFL D, I'm not sure but I'd imagine his numbers are likely lower than that. He's not a between-the-tackles guy like DD. I just think that factor alone gives DD more value from an NFL perspective. So, maybe, for whatever reason, you've equated open-field running ability with NFL RB talent. Not the same though.
eltoro said:
I agree that Davis is average to above average for NFL guys. Bush has yet to prove he's in that category is my point, especially since he was so infrequently used and most of his highlight reel plays were not run inside the tackles.
I think the latter part of your post might be understood by keeping in mind that the RBs that Kubiak succeeded with in prior stints were probably on the same level of a Morency or Davis.
eltoro
Practice Squad
Well, I don't necessarily put Portis in that category, but your point is well-taken. I just don't think anyone can/should be too critical/supportive of these kids until they prove themselves at the NFL level...However, that should apply across the board - Ferguson, Bush, Young, etc.
I like DD and have admired his tough running. But I would love the idea of putting Bush in the backfield with him and seeing what types of opportunities open for them both.
I like DD and have admired his tough running. But I would love the idea of putting Bush in the backfield with him and seeing what types of opportunities open for them both.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Look, the QB's performance is much more reliant on circumstance (coaching, surrounding talent, system) than any other position. Obviously there is a feeling out there that the previous staff and situation did not tap into Carr's abilities. Furthermore, Kubiak seems confident that he will be able to tap into that. Saying Carr didn't play well last season is to acknowledge that he's not John Elway... because only John Elway had the talent to overcome the situation with the Texan's offense last year.
Facts:
1. Most routes were hooks and outs
2. the system was totally unimaginative
3. there were constant breakdowns in protection
4. Corey Bradford can't catch but he still started
5. TEs were poor
6. Carr was not allowed to audible to a pass- and the defenses knew it
7. Pendry is an idiot
8. the team acquired a defeatist attitude
Why people try to attack Carr, I don't fully understand. Obviously, the past 1.5 seasons, he has played poorly. However, most people would also acknowledge that the former coaching staff was an utter failure. So, isn't it reasonable to hope/think that many players, Carr included, will play much better with the new staff that everyone seems to be quite high on?
All Mort was saying is that there exists among NFL personnel men a consensus that Carr posesses the QB tools to be a very good QB- he's not saying that he has been or will be a very good QB.
Facts:
1. Most routes were hooks and outs
2. the system was totally unimaginative
3. there were constant breakdowns in protection
4. Corey Bradford can't catch but he still started
5. TEs were poor
6. Carr was not allowed to audible to a pass- and the defenses knew it
7. Pendry is an idiot
8. the team acquired a defeatist attitude
Why people try to attack Carr, I don't fully understand. Obviously, the past 1.5 seasons, he has played poorly. However, most people would also acknowledge that the former coaching staff was an utter failure. So, isn't it reasonable to hope/think that many players, Carr included, will play much better with the new staff that everyone seems to be quite high on?
All Mort was saying is that there exists among NFL personnel men a consensus that Carr posesses the QB tools to be a very good QB- he's not saying that he has been or will be a very good QB.
dalemurphy said:
I think you are just skewing what he said just a bit. The fact is that Peyton Manning could look like sh!t if he didn't get pass protection. I'd love to see Peyton regularly having to run for his life to get off a pass to a receiver who can't run a route or catch it when Peyton's worked his *** off to get it to him. It's just a bit discouraging what Carr's been though. I think that's what he's saying. Carr would - by most professional evaluator's estimations - be a top QB worthy of the No. 1 pick today and the Texans problems on offense were not reflective of the quality they have in Carr. Boom. End of story.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Caphorn said:
Peyton himself blamed the playoff loss on poor line play. I think Carr would of taken that line play in a herat beat all season.
I think it is wrong to say that Mortenson has a man crush on Carr like has been suggested. It takes a bit of guts to still be saying that Carr is/was top pick quality after 5 years of inconsistent (at best) or dissappointing perfomances.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Caphorn said:
You should reread my post more carefully. Then, reread what Mort said. I certainly haven't skewed anything.
Maybe I'm misreading your post, but it seemed that Mort was saying that Carr was a talented QB (not just a guy who has the tools) and that his talent - even in light of the Texans poor team performance - is still viewed as worthy of a No. 1 draft pick. He's not just saying he has tools to succeed, but might not succeed. He's saying Carr is an elite QB talent that you pay a ton of money for to play the position.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
eltoro said:
Never said that. Before you start worrying about macro economics, maybe a program for you like RIF would be better served.
Bush's stats in the Rose bowl werent bad by any stretch of the imagination. And he would have had more than 100 yards rushing if he hadnt made that boneheaded lateral.
Rushing and Recieving, and considering that he had a spy on him the whole game.. Bush's stats were very good.
Mortenson is my new favorite talking head
..Looks like he actually did some research.
Rushing and Recieving, and considering that he had a spy on him the whole game.. Bush's stats were very good.
Mortenson is my new favorite talking head
..Looks like he actually did some research.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
Caphorn said:
The difference is david carr DOES look like poop on most occasions. Its nice and easy for nfl pundits to say "sure...that carr guy...he'll be great someday". They have no vested interest in our franchise...they dont have to sit through the 2-14 seasons, and if he never develops, they dont have to own up to being wrong. Who lost their jobs for talking on espn about ryan leaf being better than manning?
Hulk75 said:
No he didn't
Reddevil63 said:
You wish... that was Pendry, the whole game.
eltoro said:
Statwise, DD's Rookie year compares favorably to LT & Ronnie Browns Rookie years. Over his first three years, he's right there with the best of them. The man gets no love.......
Reddevil63 said:
So whose got more Talent?? Joey Galloway, or Peyton Manning..... Galloway has breakaway speed, Manning doesn't.
eltoro said:
Next year, we'll be looking at Adrian Peterson if that happens. The year after that, we'll be wishing Jamal Charles would leave school early. Being only the second Mack Brown player to leave school early.
Caphorn said:
most of the plays on Bush's highlight real has him as a reciever, not a running back.
and You're correct. The highest Shanahan/Kubiak has drafted a running back, was Clinton Portis in the Third round. Then Terrell Davis, was a 4th rounder, and everyone else was either a sixth round pick, I think.
dalemurphy said:
I know you don't want to hear this, and most people on this board are going to come up with another excuse........ but our offense has gotten simpler & simpler every year, less & less imaginative.
Caphorn said:
How many times was Carr sacked in 2003?? How many other QBs need more than a ProBowl Reciever, and a solid running game before you can judge his NFL capabilities??