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Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB (Yates named #2)
- Thread starter legacy_gt
- Start date
Yates will definitely eventually go if Keenum improves and he doesn't get better. I can agree that Case will need to wait even if he is a 3rd stringer. If Yates can do somewhat on par to the results of Case, Yates will be the 2nd QB. Excited to see the dual in the pre-season.
Porky
Hall of Fame
I'm a Case Keenum fan - in college. It's debatable how well that transfers to the pro game. There was a reason (multiple ones) that Case was undrafted.
As pointed out, that doesn't rule out the fact that he can overcome his somewhat short stature, lack of pro-nfl offense experience, a mediocre arm, etc. Others have done it. Case imo, actually in the long run is the better prospect than Yates IMHO.
To me Yates is what he is - a pretty decent career back-up. I don't look at Yates and see future starter. I just don't. But Case has an it factor, leadership skills, and that will to win that make me think that he at least has a shot from going to UDFA to future starter. Likely? I don't know. Let's see what he has this preseason.
But, that's down the road at least a couple of years in any event. He needs much more seasoning. This year it's about getting on a roster. And I think he has an excellent chance of making the 53 man squad and being that #3 QB. Is there a chance he beats out Yates? Sure, but it's very, very unlikely imo. Next year - could be different. Let's keep this year realistic, and we'll follow his career and see what happens.
I kind of feel sorry for Mcgee. Outside of you know what (knock on wood) I just see virtually no chance that McGee makes it over Case or Yates. Kubes is going to give the nod to the young guy that has some real upside over a Yates knockoff who is likely to be a career backup and Yates has been here and he experience in the playoffs. McGee should basically be trying to showcase any playing time to see if he can latch on elsewhere.
As pointed out, that doesn't rule out the fact that he can overcome his somewhat short stature, lack of pro-nfl offense experience, a mediocre arm, etc. Others have done it. Case imo, actually in the long run is the better prospect than Yates IMHO.
To me Yates is what he is - a pretty decent career back-up. I don't look at Yates and see future starter. I just don't. But Case has an it factor, leadership skills, and that will to win that make me think that he at least has a shot from going to UDFA to future starter. Likely? I don't know. Let's see what he has this preseason.
But, that's down the road at least a couple of years in any event. He needs much more seasoning. This year it's about getting on a roster. And I think he has an excellent chance of making the 53 man squad and being that #3 QB. Is there a chance he beats out Yates? Sure, but it's very, very unlikely imo. Next year - could be different. Let's keep this year realistic, and we'll follow his career and see what happens.
I kind of feel sorry for Mcgee. Outside of you know what (knock on wood) I just see virtually no chance that McGee makes it over Case or Yates. Kubes is going to give the nod to the young guy that has some real upside over a Yates knockoff who is likely to be a career backup and Yates has been here and he experience in the playoffs. McGee should basically be trying to showcase any playing time to see if he can latch on elsewhere.
Huh?
Again, what do Romo and Carter have to do with one another?
I guess they're saying that if Carter had played well Romo wouldn't be there....
But that is just a funny way to look at things since the Cowboys had 3 starters in between the time that Carter left and Romo became a starter.
Might as well say that if Chad Hutchinson had played well enough Romo wouldn't be there....
Cowboys traded a third round pick to us for Drew Henson. Romo was not really viewed as an heir apparent and only moved up the depth chart when Henson bombed out.
Just a strange way to look at it to me.
Huh?
Again, what do Romo and Carter have to do with one another?
If Carter had stayed cleaned, the Cowboys would have kept him.
They signed Testaverde and traded a third for Henson.
That means Romo was likely the odd man out.
The possibility of him getting cut was up there.
And if he was cut, he might make another team PS or he might decide to go to work in a grocery store, I don't know.
If he ended up with Sean Payton and the Saints as TK suggested, he would still be a backup QB to Brees, most likely.
In that case, he wouldn't have been with the Cowboys the next year to take over Bledsoe's job.
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Ummmm...
Maybe they don't trade a third rounder for a QB if their starter was still there?
Maybe they don't go out and sign Testaverde either?
Maybe Romo ends up starting sooner if Carter had lasted a bit longer.
Rey, read the above post #155 and this:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Dallas_Cowboys_season
Signing Testaverde and trading a third round draft pick for Henson while Carter is still the starter couldn't have been a shot in the arm for Romo.
Rey, the Cowboys took Henson first, then they signed Testaverde in June:
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1022
They cut Carter in August; he eventually went into rehab.
If Carter didn't have an addiction, he would have been kept, don't you think?
And if you're Bill Parcels, would you keep 3 young QBs on the roster instead of bringing in Testaverde who had played for Parcels.
Who is more likely to be the odd man out?
????
Do you realize that Carter was released the first week of camp?
I don't think the Cowboys cut their starting QB in the first week of camp just on the spur of the moment.
And I'm supposed to believe that the Cowboys traded a third round pick for a 2nd or 3rd string QB in Henson?
Maybe there is a reason they went out and signed Testaverde and traded for Henson.
Yeah, if Carter would have stayed there Romo likely would have been cut. But I don't believe Carter staying there was ever in the plans. Therefore I don't believe Romo was ever going to be cut because of QC.
I think there is a reason they traded a 3rd rounder for a young QB and then signed a steady vet. Because they were moving towards releasing Carter.
His drug problem didn't just magically pop up in August. They already knew about it.
CT, I'm not challenging anything.
I'm just saying that it certainly looks like the Saints had interest in Daniel before they knew that he would clear waiver.
Also, the Redskins indicated that they wanted to bring him back onto their PS.
That, along with the Matt Moore situation, did show that when a team hopes to sneak a player onto their PS, there's a risk.
All I was saying.
With a guy like Keenum in his second year, who has now learn the rope of the WCO, besides being familiar with a multitude of offenses from his college days - from the pistol to the spread, the option read, etc. - he can be more attractive as a free agent. There's more risk in trying to stash him onto the PS.
Yes, but they hoped he doesn't fail a drug test.
Look, the Jets picked him up; that has got to be out of sheer hope that he can kick the habit.
At any rate, drafting Henson in the third can't be good news for an UDFA like Romo.
My main point is that Romo was an UDFA who at one point seemed not to be in the plan, but he persevered and made it in the NFL.
I agree with your point. Well, there's no disputing that....but what I'm saying is that I agree that keenum can have a similar type of path...
b0ng
Bad Hombre
I was there for the draft party at Reliant in 2011, and while this is somewhat true that was more of a case of a few loud voices not an entire group consensus.
That writer is still garbage, and that piece that is presented in the link has no real analysis behind it, it's mostly the author drawing conclusions off of quotes. There's no actual comparison of Yates's current game to Keenum's current game, there's a whole two actual football tidbits in the article (That Keenum's deepball has improved a lot, and his command of the huddle has improved), and the rest is hyperbole and assumptions.
This article is piss, just like the writer.
Well, JJ remembers the boos.
I have never read an article by this guy prior to the Keenum piece. That I'm aware of. This reads as a typical preseason fluff piece that could be found on any web site, even chron.com. As I said, I don't see the outrageousness in this piece (by itself) that would bring up such venom.
It's the 1st week of preseason, and I don't know if the coaches know who the starters are at RT or MO LB, much less who the backup QB is. Maybe in 4 weeks, the piece will look like hot garbage or brilliant insight. Who really knows?
I don't think the Saints were going to be looking for a starting caliber guy like Brees. They'd have been looking for a veteran back up to Tony.
I'm going to admit I didn't look at the chronology.... he said Carter, I went with it.
Bledsoe was brought in to be a starter in Romo's second year. Obviously the feelings on Romo weren't so high at that time. I like to think there was another QB there on the roster between Bledsoe & Romo. Romo didn't "win" the back-up job until 2006. (Just checked, it was Drew Henson).
OT; Bledsoe is the guy I think about when I think about QBs similar to Schaub. Very good in the pocket. Probably good enough to get you to a Super Bowl... Probably never win one.
However, we can change him out with a more mobile guy, like Romo & thread water for a decade.
Whoa...Now you've gone and switched directions (or so it seems)...
Is this your argument against Case/Yates?
noxiousdog
Rookie
I'm a big JJ Watt fan, but he is one of those guys that wants a chip on his shoulder. If it was 1 fan out 60,000, he'd carry that around with him.
He's been on this crusade against The Doubters(tm) this off season, and he's arguing against people that think it's reasonable not to expect him to have the all time greatest season by a defensive lineman again.
That's kind of making up an enemy, but if it makes him play better and work harder, by all means, you can put me at the front of the hater line.
OT= off topic
I honestly don't think there is a competition. If there was going to be someone competing with Yates, it would be someone with playing time.
I don't believe Kubiak Kubiak sees Yates as anything but a back-up, & don't believe he's going to keep him on the roster past this year (this is his third year). If Keenum impresses Kubiak, Keenum will be our back up next year & we'll find another guy to develop.
Keenum is fighting with McGee for the third spot & a spot on next years roster.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
He wanted Carter to be Vick so so bad.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
McClain today pointed out Keenum has not had even one pass batted down during TC. Although not even close to the 6'4" and 6'5" height of Yates and Schaub, he attributed this to the invaluable talent of Keenum having total control of navigating the passing lanes.
eriadoc
Texan-American
We used to have a QB here that was plenty tall, but had quite a few batted passes.
This is one of the things I mentioned when I evaluate his play in college.
The guy is straight smart. It's really remarkable how few of his passes were batted down, and he put up a ton of them.
I need to see him against JJ Watt though.
keenum can model qb's like drew brees. keenum is actually a little bigger and taller. there's a lot of tangibles being a qb besides height and size (IQ, vision, reading defenses, speed, etc.)
Well I think I will say Case grabs early edge, LOL. I'm sorry texans-chick, I love all your articles but I can't forget your statements from before. If Case rocks the rest of preseason the competition is on IMHO. If case has not had much 2nd team practice reps then they need to give it to him.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
What is your source for this assertion?
SAMURAITEXAN
All Pro
I think the back up QB situation will be more clear if and when Kubiak let Case play before TJ against Miami. I really like to see how Case hooks up with Hopkins.
Keenum throws the football more like Boyd did at clemson so I see it being great chemistry wise.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Same source as most of the feces he's produced lately.
I bet you money Yates will open the season as our #2 QB behind Schaub (baring injury).
& it doesn't even matter how well Keenum does, because there is no competition. Keenum cannot compete with what Yates has... real NFL experience. Real NFL play-off experience.
It's coachspeak & I'm surprised so many fell for it.
I don't think I've weighed in on this subject, but I'll admit I wasn't a fan of Yates at all while he was at Carolina. He showed some things when he started for us and I'll always appreciate his contribution to our playoff run. With that being said he tends to miss on a lot of easy throws especially early in games. Maybe its something you can chalk it up to adrenaline, but I don't think he's our default #2 QB no matter what. He played well last night after being off early on though.
I also have to put the disclaimer out there as well that I wasn't sold Keenum could be a QB in this league. He showed me some things last night that may cause me to question that somewhat. He's always been accurate, but his athletic ability on our boots really jumped out to me. He's a much better athlete than the other 2 so it adds a different dimension. I need to see more, but if I'm Kubiak I see no need to just annoint TJ the backup right now.
I also have to put the disclaimer out there as well that I wasn't sold Keenum could be a QB in this league. He showed me some things last night that may cause me to question that somewhat. He's always been accurate, but his athletic ability on our boots really jumped out to me. He's a much better athlete than the other 2 so it adds a different dimension. I need to see more, but if I'm Kubiak I see no need to just annoint TJ the backup right now.
Kubiak is thinking Super Bowl. It would be irresponsible for Kubiak to allow Case to feel his way around the NFL when we've got a very good chance of winning it all with the team he assembled. Case hasn't played in a real game. It's different. He may very well be prepared for it, but unless Tj does something to make you believe he hurts your teams chances (makes dumb mistakes, doesn't fully grasp the play book, doesn't "trust" the system) you don't replace him with someone who has never played in an NFL game.
Then the play offs are different. Kubiak cannot go into the play offs again with a QB getting his first taste of the NFL play offs. If he has to, he has to, but he should not "decide" to.
Kubiak may very well have to, which is why he will try to get Keenum as prepared as possible, we'll probably see more of Keenum than we will of Yates through the rest of the preseason for that reason alone. If we're up by 20 with 5 minutes or so left in a real game, he'll probably throw Keenum in the game.
& Tj isn't being annointed, he won the job two years ago, he was a "team player" last year, & he hasn't done anything to lose the job.
It would be irresponsible for Kubiak to give the job to someone that you claim won the job two years ago. In this league, unless you're a proven starter, you should have to earn your spot every year. If he feels like Keenum is the better player and gives us the best chance to win then he should make the tough decision and go with him.
I'd also like to point out that TJ didn't exactly light things up when he played for us. He did a great job of managing the game, but there wasn't one point where I could say I was completely comfortable with him. Two years later I still can't say that. Your philosophy that guys shouldn't have to show they're better than the next guy behind them every year would get your fired in a heartbeat as a coach. I hope Texans coaches present and future never have that mentality.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
So I guess Martin and Jean should be ahead of Hopkins since they both have playoff experience and all.
It's not my philosophy. It's what it is. If Keenum was truly competing with Tj, they never would have brought McGee in (McGee also has NFL experience). Keenum playing as well as he is, is earning his spot on the roster. It wasn't just given to him.
I'd have an easier time believing Tj was competing for his job, if McGee was in the third spot..... but he's not.
& yes, there are still a lot of questions concerning Tj. He's never been given the full play-book in a game. If Matt gets hurt in the regular season, Yates is going to go in & prove to us he deserves to be starting. If he can't successfully answer the remaining questions, Keenum will go in. At that point, Kubiak won't have a choice. He'll have to admit that he's wrong & he'll answer the questions about 3 years back to back with green QBs.
But for Keenum to give us our best chance of winning, Tj has to stop putting up 90+ QB ratings, 60% completions, 7.2 ypc, & start turning the ball over.
If those two ever showed to be competent with the play book I'm sure they would be. But neither of them at any time earned the #2 WR spot.
Had Posey not tore his Achilles, I bet he'd be ahead of Hopkins, if we even drafted a WR in the first round.
That sentence seems to indicate that there actually is a competition after all.
If there is no competition it really shouldn't matter how well anyone plays..
I think you are confusing no competition with Yates having a large lead in the competition because of his experience.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
He won jack two years ago. He was buried on the depth chart and everyone in front got hurt.
His playoff experience you find so compelling consisted of one decent game and one miserable one.
Its one game in the preseason TK. I will agree with you that TJ probably has to have a poor showing the rest of the games here on out to probably lose his spot, but I stress the word probably. Kubiak has done his evaluations throughout the offseason and sees Keenum as his pet prodigy right now. If he feels like he's playing the best I can totally see him making him the backup. I don't even know why you brought up McGee. He was brought in as a camp arm and insurance. Nothing more, nothing less.
If Kubiak is making Yates the backup because he had 1 really good drive 2 years ago then he's failing this team as a coach. I have my doubts about him, but I honestly don't think he shares your same thoughts and opinions.
If Kubiak is making Yates the backup because he had 1 really good drive 2 years ago then he's failing this team as a coach. I have my doubts about him, but I honestly don't think he shares your same thoughts and opinions.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
In preseason, I seriously doubt that the classic QB ratings and completion percentages will trump form, poise and ability to respond to certain situations to make things happen.
It's not like Yates has poor form, no poise, & no ability to respond & make things happen.
I follow your logic but I'm not sure its the lead pipe cinch you're thinking it is.
I'll say this: Yates will be the #2 when the season begins
...but he won't have the long leash he had last year when Keenum was learning what the NFL was all about and inserting Keenum was a pretty big risk. If Yates has to go in for Schaub and stinks it up - or even fails to move the team after 2-3 series - I think Kubiak will feel better about pulling Yates and inserting Keenum to (a) possibly/hopefully give the team a spark and/or (b) let Yates know his backup spot isn't totally secure.
Keenum's play has definitely made things more interesting.
It was more than one good drive. & it's not my "opinion" it's odds. No one knows how Keenum is going to play in the NFL. We've got good ideas, we can make educated guesses, but it's less than 50/50 that Keenum will be able to continue to have the success he had in college or the preseason. Maybe less if you consider all the guys in similar situations that couldn't (not that there are many NCAAF passing leaders).
& the progress Kubiak is able to see in Keenum in practice & the film room, he may be seeing similar progress in Yates for all we know.
I said in my inital post here I don't know who the best QB is right now, but to me Yates wasn't all that great in that stretch of games he started and wasn't great last preseason. I want the best QB TODAY on the field. Vince Young is 31-19 as a starter, but it took him forever to get another shot. If TJ shows that he's better then fine, but his play from 2 years ago shouldn't win him the job THIS year. Just my opinion.
I follow your logic but I'm not sure its the lead pipe cinch you're thinking it is.
I'll say this: Yates will be the #2 when the season begins
...but he won't have the long leash he had last year when Keenum was learning what the NFL was all about and inserting Keenum was a pretty big risk. If Yates has to go in for Schaub and stinks it up - or even fails to move the team after 2-3 series - I think Kubiak will feel better about pulling Yates and inserting Keenum to (a) possibly/hopefully give the team a spark and/or (b) let Yates know his backup spot isn't totally secure.
Keenum's play has definitely made things more interesting.
That's exactly the way I see it. Well, I think he'll have a longer leash. But Yates will be pulled if Kubiak thinks he's not getting the job done. Keenum will earn the #2 spot on the field, same as Yates did (otherwise we'd have brought in a #2 last offseason).
Even if Yates does not stink it up, if we manage to get a good lead, instead of going into turtle mode, he'll put Keenum in to help him get ready in case we need him for the post season.