That, it is.
Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍
Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB (Yates named #2)
- Thread starter legacy_gt
- Start date
That, it is.
A difference I was trying to point out between the play of Yates and the play of Keenum.MSR
Got him for ya.
Edit (What Kubiak sees in Case)
I don't have a photographic memory or anything close to it, but I don't recall hearing Kubiak say that about Yates.
...or Schaub come to think about it... but that could just be my bad memory.
badboy
Hall of Fame
TK, Kubes did bring in Keenum to compete and signed him May 2012. Then gave him a two year deal for $900,000 for 2013/14.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
Coming from a completely unbiased Texas point of view, and a completely biased Houston Texans point of view, I'm really happy we have two capable QBs playing behind Schaub.
For one, it's good to have solid depth just in case we get unlucky, and for two, it will keep Matt on his toes. I want Schaub to succeed, but I'm still pretty salty about seeing him throw balls at his feet, even when the play was still alive in the playoffs against the Patriots.
As for the "backup quarterback" controversy, I think Case comes close but Yates wins out at least for this season. The NFL is a "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately?" kind of league, and people remember the last time Yates was given consistent time as a starter, he performed. I still remember TJ's drive against the Bengals that finally clinched that elusive playoff berth. He performed admirably that season with the reps.
Just to play devil's advocate, does anyone remember that play in TJ's first start against the Falcons, play action by design, TJ stumbles initially, regains balance and hits Johnson in stride over the middle deep? Had Case done that exact play, this site would be shut down due to traffic.
Case is talented no doubt (I also understand cheering for homegrown talent, for basketball fans, Wiggins is a big deal right now in Toronto), but he faces an uphill battle as an undrafted QB. For me, and others, you've got to bring Kurt Warner, Warren Moon, and Tony Romo into the discussion when bringing up undrafted yet successful QBs.
For Warner and Moon however, they both had to not only experience failure, but also found playing time elsewhere before being given a shot. Warner was cut and ended up almost completely ditching the sport, but found a niche in the Arena Football League, built up confidence then the rest is history. Moon played in the CFL, was amazing, and then the NFL bid on him realizing they messed up.
Romo is a bit of a different story. He was brought onto a team that didn't exactly have any competition. Chad Hutchinson, who was a baseball player first really, wasn't anything, Vinny Testaverde was brought in to really mentor guys like Carter (who failed his drug test, and was also another baseball guy), and Bledsoe was simply running his victory lap at this point. This scenario and strong support from Sean Payton is what allowed Romo to dart up the depth chart.
At the same time, some people who use Romo as an example of an undrafted QB, have also ripped Romo as a QB in the past.
Either way, I think Yates wins out, but if Case succeeds and beats the odds, even better because I know the coaching staff will make the right call for this team. If Case gets it, it's because he earned it, and not because of UH bias like some people. And that's the way it should be, because this team is entering uncharted territory, we expect a Super Bowl now, so we should put forth the best team possible.
I don't get it. When that play happened, people were all over this board saying Schaub could never do that (he couldn't). Why would Keenum be any different, especially when he also went to college in the city. Go dig up the giant threads from the 2011 season on Yates vs Schaub.
Got him for ya.
Funny thing is, we get YAC. Andre, Jacoby, OD, Arian... they catch the ball, then they turn it up-field. But we'll still criticize Schaub for not hitting his receivers in stride & for holding the ball too long.
Then he cut him from the team, watched him clear waivers, then signed him to the practice squad. That doesn't sound like "competition" for Yates last season.
Kubiak was satisfied last season for Tj to be one play away from being the Texans' QB.
The basis of that criticism is this question:
How many MORE yards, first downs, TDs could those guys have attained if Schaub had hit them in stride. When you see AJ have to slow down (if not stop) and wait on a ball instead of catching it in stride - or even better, having to shift gears and "go get it" - you just know that DB wouldn't have caught up to him it that ball had hit him on the money.
...but you knew this. You've likely wondered about it yourself on a play here or there. I have.
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
It's obvious that Schaub IS able to do that (see Broncos game last year TD pass to Andre, the ball was in the air for 60 yds). We also heard the argument that he underthrows some of them on purpose. So, it could be that (underthrowing on purpose), or maybe he's just not able to do that consistently.
TD to AJ vs Broncos
Yes....
Just saying I think it's odd, that is a criticism of Schaub, but YAC is supposed to be an indicator of leading a receiver.
Andre was 3rd in the league, just imagine how out of reach he'd be if his QB led him more often. It would be sick. Imagine how many TDs he'd have.
OD was third among TEs
But like you're thinking in the back of your head, that's the difference between a QB helping a receiver & a receiver helping a QB.
It's one of the factors, that's for sure.
I had disagreed with those who said that Schaub can't throw a guy open.
He just doesn't do it on a consistent basis.
We've seen AJ breaking tackles or dragging defenders into the end zone and we have seen the receivers break up what would have been INT.
Unlike David Anderson, AJ almost always get some extra yards by pure strength.
I'd love to see Schaub improve in that department a little more.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Schaub's a big boy. He can handle it. Are you suggesting that such a critique is unfair, given that he's a 9-yr vet going into his 7th season with the same coach and system? Or are you suggesting that people should refrain from mentioning this quality when watching other QBs, in order avoid hurting Schaubie's feelings? Or maybe you just want us to leave Schaub alone.
Excuse me. I thought I knew what the word "odd" meant. Maybe I should've looked it up before I used that word. I probably should have used a word like unfair, inaccurate, harsh, or detrimental to his psyche..... wait-a-minute....
So is Schaub hitting his guys in stride, or is he holding the ball too long & not leading his receiver..
(not you Doc, I'm asking eriadoc)
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
After Yates looked terrible supposedly, Kubiak announced that Keenum was a go as 2nd for Miami game.
Who said he looked terrible?
Man, I love this. We have a few questions at LB, WR and DB but the biggest story of TC is backup QB. This is so much better than years past. It's amazing what a couple of winning seasons and playoff wins do for a team and its fan base.
The only downside I see is that our #1 draft pick can completely suck as a rookie and it won't make much of a difference. Hmmmm...maybe that's not such a downside after all.
The only downside I see is that our #1 draft pick can completely suck as a rookie and it won't make much of a difference. Hmmmm...maybe that's not such a downside after all.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
The report was on 610 by one of the sportscasters who got his info during practice........I believe Ted Johnson. He stated that Yates was wildly missing receivers left and right and overthrowing many.
I should also mention that he reported that Swearinger had an absolutely unbelievable interception against Keenum.
Yates had at least 3 balls batted down, 2 of them with him clearly locking on the receiver from the get go.
He missed Graham (a tall target) high on a short throw.
He took a sack at the 4-sec mark instead of throwing the ball away.
His TD pass to Hopkins was actually a hail-Mary.
Hopkins might have gotten away with a PI there to make that play for Yates;
He saved Yates' behind there.
Also, that was against a PS CB who probably won't make the roster unless one or two injuries happen.
Can Yates get away with a starting CB on that play?
He would be lucky it's not an INT; most likely, it's an incomplete pass.
So yeah, I don't think it was a good outing for Yates.
Last edited:
You need to fastforward to today. CnD was talking about at practice today. From what I heard, both QBs were stinking it up in practice while Schaub was dealing with family issues (Death in Family).
& if that's the way you "analyze" that TD, I'm starting to question if you know what you're looking at when you're looking at it.
That's not entirely accurate. CnD posted that Yates looked bad and Keenum had an interception and that it was an "unbelievable" interception at that.
How do you go from
to both QB's were stinking it up? That sounds a lot more like Yates stunk it up and Swearinger made a helluva play to get an INT off of Keenum. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the report, but that's what was posted here.
I listen to the radio too. CnD is reporting what he heard, I'm reporting what I heard.
Kubiak lumped both QBs when he answered the question.
He said they both did some things good, some bad.
I guess Yates didn't do as well, or it could be that it was Kubiak's plan to have Keenum going ahead in this game already (and Yates will likely take his turn in the third game.)
Hey, it wasn't just me that said Hopkins might have gotten away with a PI.
At any rate, what is the percentage of the chance that a starting CB miss-times his jump like Bobby Felder the Practice Squad player?
Remember that Hopkins had to go over the top of the CB to get that ball.
It means that both players, if they play their technique right, has a chance at the ball.
That's the definition of a Hail-Mary, isn't it?
Fair enough. My take on the TD pass from Yates to DH is that DH got away with offensive PI, as I think I know the rule. It's too dang confusing anymore to call that from my recliner.
Well... if you heard DeAndre's recollection of the catch, he said he knew he had 1 on 1, & their "rules" said if he had one on one on that play, Tj was going to throw it up for him to get it.
That's what Tj did. He wasn't trying to lead DeAndre, he wasn't trying to back shoulder throw it, he wasn't trying to throw the fade. He was just supposed to put enough air under it out in front of DeAndre & Hopkins was supposed to go get it. The only way that could have been a bad throw, was if it was thrown so far out of bounds that DeAndre couldn't possible catch it in bounds.
Even if the CB came down with the ball, Tj did what he was supposed to do.
Another way it could have been a bad throw would have been if there was some kind of disguised coverage & someone rotated back there & Tj didn't see him.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Yesterday, it was reported that both QBs did not look particularly well.
But the bolded is what was reported on 610. I was simply trying to be fair by pointing out that Case was intercepted, even though it was reported that it was an unbelievable interception by Swearinger.
Let's say that it was an intentional pass; the location of the ball wasn't quite there.
The CB actually was in a better position than Hopkins.
Again, what do you think the chances are against a starting CB?
To my understanding, when the CB is ahead of the receiver, the ball is supposed to be thrown short, not over the top.
The CB actually was in a better position than Hopkins.
Again, what do you think the chances are against a starting CB?
To my understanding, when the CB is ahead of the receiver, the ball is supposed to be thrown short, not over the top.
Fair enough. My take on the TD pass from Yates to DH is that DH got away with offensive PI, as I think I know the rule. It's too dang confusing anymore to call that from my recliner.
PI is like a strike zone. Some umps call'em tight. Some call a wide zone. You never know until you're halfway through the game. Sometimes they let them play, sometimes they don't. The ref didn't call it, or anything like it that game, so I'm going with wasn't a PI.
Also, from the training camp thread.
& like I said, on the radio there was some talk about how bad Schaub was & the guys (Koch & Kalu.... then Palilo later) was saying how bad off the Texans would be considering what they saw/heard over the last two days.
That's one of those no read plays. If it's one on one, Tj tosses it up. His mind is made up before the ball is snapped, doesn't matter where the CB is. He has to trust that Hopkins is going to be there.
That's the essence of that play. I agree that it's the right call. The pass could've been located better but it was the right call.
From that link
It has nothing to do with Case "looking" better than Tj. It's more like I said, you can not get a good read on how well Tj knows the play book with that bunch of raggamuffins (I say that in the nicest way) he was out there with. I doubt any of the plays went anywhere close to 80% of what they were supposed to.
The difference between Yates & Keenum is how well they grasp the play-book. When Schaub is in the game, we see 100% of the play book. When Tj came in 2 years ago we saw maybe 40% of the play book.
We're going to the Super Bowl this year. Kubiak wants to make sure he's done everything he can to make sure Case is just as prepared as Tj (100% of the play book) in the event we need him. No one is going to give Kubiak a pass if we don't win the AFC Championship game this year & he knows it.
.
If Case is the back up QB Sept 9, then I'll believe he's got an edge on Tj. Until then, he's trying to avoid a situation like 2011, the first time we should have won a Super Bowl.
I meant that link to show the whole story, not what people heard. He said, she said is the worst way to diagnose a player. "Coach speak" is sooo much better. LOL
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
That's only because of the Denver air. Schaub's long td passes are really more like Tue first one he threw to AJ. Schaub probably has the weakest arm of the three, with Case having the strongest.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
I would actually rank arm strength as Yates, Schaub, then Case. In all fairness, I haven't watched that much of Case. But I do remember "weak arm" was one of Case's weaknesses in draft profiles.
Scooter
Funky
during last year's preseason there was talk about arm strength regarding keenum's first real practices with the team. what i read was that in camp schaub had the strongest arm by a large margin, while yates was ok and keenum really needed to work on his velocity.
now this doesnt mean schaub can chuck it the furthest, and i'd have keenum as most accurate on the deep stuff, but when it comes to adding extra zip to fit it into a window schaub's still well ahead of the other two as far as i can tell.
you also have to remember that most of schaub's deep throws come from rollouts. it's much more difficult to be accurate and get the same distance when running out (usually left), stopping, and heaving. it'd be easier for him to lead andre more often in rhythm - 7 step drop, step up and throw.
now this doesnt mean schaub can chuck it the furthest, and i'd have keenum as most accurate on the deep stuff, but when it comes to adding extra zip to fit it into a window schaub's still well ahead of the other two as far as i can tell.
you also have to remember that most of schaub's deep throws come from rollouts. it's much more difficult to be accurate and get the same distance when running out (usually left), stopping, and heaving. it'd be easier for him to lead andre more often in rhythm - 7 step drop, step up and throw.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
Yeah people should stop going off of the draft profile (when he was injured) and go YouTube some videos of him at UH. That's where this rumor of Case having a weak arm came from and people just ran with it and continue to say it. Anyone who says it never has watched him play. I mean he is the NCAA all time passing leader.He easily has the strongest arm of the three.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaltTgbUxV0
The ball was in the air for 60 yards in that video, without the help of Denver mile high air like Schaub. There are plenty of others too.
speedfreek
All Pro
I still, to this day, don't understand where the "keenum has no arm strength" argument comes from.
His actual combine measureables showed he had a ball velocity equivalent to Joe Flacco -- a person that everyone considers to be some "mad bomber" throwing down field all of the time.
I could not find any specific numbers for Schaub, but Keenum had a fairly comfortable lead (3 mph) over Yates.
I would suspect that both Keenum and Yates can throw the ball harder than Schaub -- just by the eye test though.
TJ
His actual combine measureables showed he had a ball velocity equivalent to Joe Flacco -- a person that everyone considers to be some "mad bomber" throwing down field all of the time.
I could not find any specific numbers for Schaub, but Keenum had a fairly comfortable lead (3 mph) over Yates.
I would suspect that both Keenum and Yates can throw the ball harder than Schaub -- just by the eye test though.
TJ
dream_team
Hall of Fame
Yup, I hear you. Like I said, the only Case I've watched is what I see during preseason, and he hasn't really had that much opportunity to showcase his arm.
At the same time, like what Scooter said, arm strength isn't all just how far can you throw the ball... Schaub's problem on deep balls may more be accuracy instead of arm strength.
NastyNate
I go kerplunk
:kubepalm:
HJam72
Hall of Fame
HWSNBN had a LOT of arm-strenth, in spite of an odd throwing motion. Didn't do him much good unless AJ made some acrobatic, juggling dive for one of his bad, but better thrown passes.
That was the best part of watching HWSNBN: watching AJ try to catch that off-target crap, LOL.
That was the best part of watching HWSNBN: watching AJ try to catch that off-target crap, LOL.
Brisco_County
Apples and roadmaps
Arm strength is not a limitation of any of our three quarterbacks. This conclusion is supported by plenty of evidence available online.
I agree, while none of them has a cannon of an arm.
They had good enough arm to make the necessary throw in this offense.
Joe Montana was never known for his arm strength.
Brady and Brees don't throw that many deep passes either.
In fact, I've already submitted this stat a few times.
The percentage of passes thrown over 20 yards for Schaub, Brady, and Brees are within the vicinity of one another.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Oh, crap! Now what do we talk about?
My point is that unless you run a vertical attack, which is not what the WCO is about, you don't need your QB to have a cannon of an arm.
40 yard throw is good enough to keep the defense honest.
You want your QB to be able to direct the offense downfield methodically.
Short, safe throws that reduce the number of third and long.
Catch them off-guard here and there if they try to play close to the vest.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
Brady was great at throwing deep balls when he had Moss around. Gronk is pretty good at getting downfield in a hurry but he's not Randy Moss. Here are his passing splits from ESPN from 2007:
Code:
BY PASS PLAY CMP ATT YDS CMP% AVG LNG TD INT SACK RAT
Pass Thrown Behind Line of Scrimmage 65 77 510 84.4 6.62 42 1 0 0 98.6
Pass Thrown 1-10 yds 236 312 2,071 75.6 6.64 43 23 0 0 117.3
Pass Thrown 11-20 yds 69 120 1,113 57.5 9.28 37 11 3 0 108.8
Pass Thrown 21-30 yds 15 39 490 38.5 12.56 69 7 3 0 93.8
Pass Thrown 31-40 yds 6 13 256 46.2 19.69 63 3 2 0 92.6
Pass Thrown 41+ yds 7 17 366 41.2 21.53 65 5 0 0 128.1I'm not ready to say that Brady has "lost his deep ball" or anything like that, but the Pats have pretty much ignored WR since 2007 (going by drafts anyway, I can't really think of a great WR that they've signed in FA since then, Danny Amendola I guess? Yikes).
Anyways I just wanted to point that out. I wonder what Brady could do with a 31 year old Andre Johnson. Probably really dirty things.
drs23
Veteran
Man, I love this. We have a few questions at LB, WR and DB but the biggest story of TC is backup QB. This is so much better than years past. It's amazing what a couple of winning seasons and playoff wins do for a team and its fan base.
The only downside I see is that our #1 draft pick can completely suck as a rookie and it won't make much of a difference. Hmmmm...maybe that's not such a downside after all.
Ain't it though?
BullBlitz
Section 331
HWSNBN had a LOT of arm-strenth, in spite of an odd throwing motion. Didn't do him much good unless AJ made some acrobatic, juggling dive for one of his bad, but better thrown passes.
That was the best part of watching HWSNBN: watching AJ try to catch that off-target crap, LOL.
Kind of like Hopkins had to go up to catch the TD pass from Yates.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
FWIW, this is how I see things.
1. When Schaub was out because of death in the family, TJ/Case looked ungood.
2. Today they looked particularly ungood. Like this sort of stuff. :kubepalm:
TJ was ugh yesterday, Case was ugh today. Actually it was an ugh day for the entire offense.
3. Kubiak wants to make it a real competition. By flipping Case and TJ in their reps but giving them similar amounts of reps. But he really wants folks to know not to read too much into it.
So there you go. I am not buying the hype on anyone.
All 3 QBs look better than last year. Which is the bigger story.
None of the backups
1. When Schaub was out because of death in the family, TJ/Case looked ungood.
2. Today they looked particularly ungood. Like this sort of stuff. :kubepalm:
TJ was ugh yesterday, Case was ugh today. Actually it was an ugh day for the entire offense.
3. Kubiak wants to make it a real competition. By flipping Case and TJ in their reps but giving them similar amounts of reps. But he really wants folks to know not to read too much into it.
So there you go. I am not buying the hype on anyone.
All 3 QBs look better than last year. Which is the bigger story.
None of the backups
Showtime100
Got JJ?
Your thoughts on how they did vs Minnesota?