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Carr : QB's to fear in the future...
- Thread starter TMac48
- Start date
mexican_texan
Furry Tractors
yeah...respect feels nice.
hollywood_texan
All Pro
Carr makes poor decisions, that is his biggest problem.
His athletic ability is not in question and his mechanics aren't perfect but good enough.
Why would it matter if you have cannon for an arm and deadly accuracy if you can't read a defense and throw it to the right guy? Why would it matter if you are not a leader when you are the quarterback and everyone expects that from you? Why would it matter if you can't step up in the pocket to buy a half a second than just sprint out of the pocket? Why would it matter when you don't throw the ball away from time to time when it make sense?
Carr's problems isn't physical, it is mental!
His athletic ability is not in question and his mechanics aren't perfect but good enough.
Why would it matter if you have cannon for an arm and deadly accuracy if you can't read a defense and throw it to the right guy? Why would it matter if you are not a leader when you are the quarterback and everyone expects that from you? Why would it matter if you can't step up in the pocket to buy a half a second than just sprint out of the pocket? Why would it matter when you don't throw the ball away from time to time when it make sense?
Carr's problems isn't physical, it is mental!
hot pickle
Canada Eh
Meloy said:
give him a break, new system
3300 and ill be happy
S
SESupergenius
Guest
This is funny actually, because all of this "issues" have with Carr can be solved with a good system and a good line, something he's never had.hollywood_texan said:
Nawzer
Alienz
I've been a DC guy from day one and I defended him when half the board wanted VY. I still think he can become an elite player but as of right now I'll believe it once I see it. The same holds true for the entire team and it's players. Tired of hearing talk about potential and all that b.s.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
It is hard to fathom that we are 32 million into this investment and we are still talking about potential. I mean we're talking about potential. Potential man.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
Kaiser Toro said:
Lol. When you put it like that ...
I still can't get past the ineptitude of the previous coaching staff and how we really don't know how the hell any of our guys can play yet ... but yeah, I can understand that frustration ...Honest question though, and forgive me if you've stated it previously and I just don't remember ... if not DC, who would you have liked us to utilize? Abandoning Carr and going either through draft or FA ... Anyone you have in mind?
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
jerek said:Lol. When you put it like that ...
Honest question though, and forgive me if you've stated it previously and I just don't remember ... if not DC, who would you have liked us to utilize? Abandoning Carr and going either through draft or FA ... Anyone you have in mind?
He is our QB and want to leave it at that.
My feeling regarding QB's in general is that one team's garbage is one team's treasure at a very discounted rate. Super Bowl Champions do not have top tiered Qb's making top tier money at this position in the salary cap era.
edo783
Hall of Fame
Kaiser Toro said:
You are so full of disengenouse BS in your posts. You make it sound like Carr is payed at 10X the amount for starting QBs when in fact he is at about the middle for QB that are starters and on their second contract or extensions. Add to that that you NEVER mention all the amounts that others who have contributed little or nothing are/were getting. You have made it VERY clear you don't like Carr because vertually every post you make is some sort of refference to him and his contract when all your intent on doing is to take a shot at him. If you were truly concerned, you would be contantly harping about a BUNCH of other financial leaks that are much more severe based on play time or acomplishment, but of course that doesn't match up with your agenda. Naturaly you never mention that he never had a line or coaches that could find their butts with both hands.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
No doubt, Carr is very well paid. One of the best paid players on this team & one of the better paid players in the entire NFL. I feel much better about Carr's prospects under Kubiak though. It's true he can make every throw and he is a physical prototype, but that was never in question with DC. Hopefully with good coaching he can turn the corner. In other news, I heard Kubiak on a 610am sound byte saying the Offense was struggling today. 
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
edo783 said:
Your agenda is quite evident as well and I would surmise that it is you who is embedded with Carr the person more so than I. My thought process has always been about the position of QB and the value of that position when you look at Super Bowl champions.
If you continue to focus on my sarcastic digs on Carr rather than what I am saying in total then please put me on your ignore list.
MightyTExan
It's go time!
hollywood_texan said:
I'll admit, I'm a Carr homer, but that is the biggest issue right there.
Ibar_Harry
All Pro
MightyTExan said:
Would you stand in the pocket with the corner stone of the pocket being McKinney? I think our new probowl center will change his confidence concerning the pocket, but remember Kubiak does want him to run actually more than he did. According to the reports, if Carr sees yardage and people are covered, he's to run it.
MightyTExan
It's go time!
Ibar_Harry said:
Ooops! I didn't think about that, still in 2-14 mode.
Bamaborn-Texasbred
Rookie
Kaiser Toro said:
It's kind of like buying a jet and never learning how to fly it and not bothering to hire someone to show you how.
It's not the jets' fault. It is yours.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Trade'06pick said:
That has been my point all along when you do a total cost of ownership analysis on a QB.
Bamaborn-Texasbred
Rookie
The answer to all of our offensive woes should come this season. Kubiak is a proven winner. He called the plays in Denver not Shanahan. If Jake Plummer can win in Denver, Carr can win here.
hollywood_texan
All Pro
SESupergenius said:
Actually, a good system and line will not make Carr make better decisions. In theory, it just provides more opportunity to make the right decision. So if is unable to make the right decisions, all the amount of the opportunity isn't going to matter
I understand the point about Carr and not having enough talent around him. But, if is so good and they system and talent were so bad, wouldn't it be obvious that he was the best part of the offense? I never saw that and no one has really staked their reputation on that.
That's my concern. Other than his scrambling (actually sprinting skills) and occasional long ball or nice throw, he hasn't done anything in four years. Carr is an athlete, there is no denying that. I just wonder if is an NFL quarterback.
Also, one good mark of a great player is that he makes the players around him better and I have never seen that from Carr.
Bamaborn-Texasbred
Rookie
I hope all of you Carr haters are eating crow before mid-season. That will mean two things: the Texans are on the right track and my faith in the man has not been misplaced.
hollywood_texan
All Pro
Trade'06pick said:
I believe Shanahan called the plays last year. I just remember reading or hearing that. Tried to find it on the web somewhere. Let me know your source on that please. I don't keep up with the Broncos innerworkings.
As for the Plummer and Carr comparison. I agree with you there.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Trade'06pick said:
We have been waiting for that crow for four years. I, like many, am dying to eat it.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Kaiser Toro said:
That isn't even close to accurate.
Big Ben (2005) is a top half 1st round draft pick--not as much as Carr but highly paid and due soon for a big renegotiation.
Tom Brady (he of three rings--2004, 2003, 2001) is a top paid QB.
Kurt Warner (1999) was well paid when he won.
John Elway (1998, 1997)--top paid guy.
Brett Favre (1996)--top paid guy.
Troy Aikman (1995)--top paid guy.
Steve Young (1994)--top paid guy.
Seems to me Dilfer and Johnson are contrary to the great weight of the evidence.
hollywood_texan
All Pro
infantrycak said:
I don't think Brady was paid top tier money for the first two Super Bowls, he proved himself first. As for Big Ben, paid according to rookie rates, can't get around that.
Who are the other quarterbacks, Dilfer and Johnson come to mind as journymen with Super Bowl rings in this millenium.
You are reaching on the guys in the 90s. That era is gone. Also, I believe Warner won a ring under a much smaller contract, if you recall he was the backup to Trent Green who had season ending injury in the preseason the year they made the Super Bowl run.
I think that is his point. You can win the Super Bowl with a minimal quarterback or dollars. By the way, Big Ben doesn't have great numbers, he just fits really well in a very good system with a strong defense. Which is what looks like what Kubiak is trying to develop.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
infantrycak said:
Is and was are two different terms. Big Ben is still not seeing top tier money. Brady was not seeing top tier money until 2005. Warner was not seeing big money until after their Super Bowl win. Elway, Favre, Aikman and Young were at the beginning of the salary cap era and are not good samples of the model as teams were given grace periods to get their cap in line for the model that is prevalent today.
Second Honeymoon
Hall of Fame
Kaiser Toro said:
He speaks the truth. Carr has been a complete failure and when you are still talking about potential on a guy in his 5th year, you know there is something wrong. Well one of these days a lot of the more 'homerish' posters will have to finally take their Teen Beat picture of David Carr out of their locker at high school, erase their David Carr in Speedos wallpaper out of their cellphone, and start praising players that actually produce and are winners, not just players that are cute and have a squeaky clean image.
p.s. saw the NFL Network feature on Mario. That was the fastest I have ever seen a DL move since the early years of Kearse. Dude is a freak, I just hope he brings his lunchpail every day and not just when we play Duke and Wake Forest..oh wait he doesnt play them anymore...STEP UP MARIO AND YOU WILL BE A HERO IN THIS TOWN!!
doug from the woodlands
Hulk75
Veteran
Its not mental, I am not going to go through this again for the 50 time.hollywood_texan said:
People bring up the same stuff over and over, bring logic to your questions,
WHY he does not step up=Cause his line sucked, yes it did.
Cant read a Defense?= How do you know that, you probably have no idea what your looking at or what his PROGRESSIONS are anyways.
Not a leader?= How about a guy that takes hit after hit after hit. David Carr leads by his play WHICH HAS SUFFERED DO TO THE SCHEME, that did not benifet anyone but the Running Back.
Throwing the ball away?=How many times would you like him to do that cause last year it would have been a lot and for the last time he ran out of bounds MAYBE 4 times last year for a sack, 4, so I dont want to here about it anymore cause your stretching it.
Question for you do you think Kubiak is an idiot and Darren Woodson said he is going to put FEAR in defenses if they can keep him upright, he has played against him, I think they both know how good Carr can be.
TexanFan881
All Pro
With everything we've done in the offseason and getting and getting a super bowl champion head coach (which team had a great OL) to coach the OL and bringing in weapons like Putzier, Moulds, and Cook, who are all three going to be effective targets for Carr in which he didn't have before. This year should be extremely exciting for our team and our offense.
TexansLucky13
53d Signal Batt
infantrycak said:
That is completely inaccurate! Check your sources before you post them, dude. Belichick would NEVER allow any of his players to control the salary cap like Manning does. The fact is, Brady was still on contract for the first two Super Bowl wins, and even took a pay reduction so that Belichick could hold onto guys like McGinest, Givens, Branch, Law and Bruschi. Brady was not considered a top-rate QB out of college, he was taken in the late rounds and he played under Bledsoe until he got injured. The fact is, the thing that makes Brady so great is that he is a quality talent, a clutch player, a leader and he doesn't demand top dollar. The Patriots are lucky to have him.
Carr has the talent. Kubiak will show him the way.
hollywood_texan said:
Actually, I've read several places that Kubiak has called the offensive plays in Denver for quite awhile. I'll try to find the most important one, which is a quote from Shanahan, for you.
But here's a blurb from Troy Aikman at NFL.com:
Source
Here's another source, the Houston Chronicle (John McClain):
Source
***edit: Found it!
Source
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
TexansLucky13 said:
Ummm, practice what you preach dude. Brady played in the first SB under his rookie contract. He then signed a much bigger contract. That contract was below market but still very significant. After the 2nd SB win he signed another yet bigger contract.
In any event, it really doesn't matter what the timing is. Brady, Warner, Big Ben all are QB's who have received top pay. Contrary to the idea that any cheap slub can carry you to a SB, even in the salary cap era, the majority of SB winning QB's are of the variety to command top salaries. By the way, what happened to the cheap slub QB's Dilfer and Brad Johnson--they were very shortly looking for work despite having won. And the attempt to eliminate Aikman for his 3rd SB, Favre and Elway is weak--those are salary cap era winners. It is clear in any event that NFL GM's and coaches do not agree with KT's cheap QB theory.
hollywood_texan
All Pro
You did go through it again.Hulk75 said:
What question didn't have logic?Hulk75 said:
From a logic perspective, you state Carr cannot stepup becuase his line sucked. Newflash, Carr's play isn't dependent on anyone else's. It is a team sport but guys have performed and succeeded with less.Hulk75 said:
I don't have to be able to read defense, Carr does. And if he could, why did he always dump off the to Dominick every other pass play? Besides, he stated he didn't review game film until late in the season because he wasn't really allowed to audible.Hulk75 said:
This is logical, take hit after hit and you are a leader. I don't think it works that way.Hulk75 said:
You say only 4 times, he was sacked about 50 times, so that is almost 10% of his sacks. He is a paid professional and should never make that mistake. In addition, against Indy last year at home, while going for a 2-point conversion, he threw the ball away in the back of end zone when he should have threaded because an interception more than likely would have been meaningless. If has to throw it away every time, fine.Hulk75 said:
I don't think Kubiak is an idiot. Where in my post or in my logic did you come up with that? You need to relax dude. As for defenses fearing David Carr, I highly doubt it. The talent level is too close and these guys train all year to be afraid of anyone.Hulk75 said:
Carr has not proven that he is even a good quarterback yet, and he is going to get year 5 to prove it. You can make up all sorts of reasons, but that is just a fact. People in life and in the game of football have succeeded with less than what David Carr has had in his first 4 years as a Texan.
Who cares about Carr anyway? All the Texans need are a strong defense and a good running game, and the rest will take care of itself. Quarterbacks of today don't need to really win games as much as they don't need to lose them to go to the Super Bowl.
Oh, and it is mental for David Carr. Even the guys that say he is going to be successful say he can't be shellshocked. I think shellshocked is a mental issue.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
infantrycak said:
Yes it is very clear.
I never said cheap. I think value is the operable word here.
edo783
Hall of Fame
Kaiser Toro said:Yes it is very clear.
I never said cheap. I think value is the operable word here.
Based on your financial management model, you would start a new manufacturing line by leasing the best pick & place machine available and then feeding it old, used and broken parts to make a product with. Then you get P.O.ed that the product sucks, so your crack management team decides to run the boards through it backwards to improve the throughput. Guess what, that sucked even more. So, when the maintenance fee (Bonus) comes due, you would either not pay it or want to low ball it and in either case you would get the middle finger salute as they pull the machine out of production. Then you would go and get some cheap machine and keep on running. Still crap being out put, but at least now its cheap crap which seems like what you want us to believe is what you want. (we know better, ya just dont like the machine so you dream up things to whine about) Of course you would blame the top line machine for not putting out quality products, heck ya paid a lot for it so it should be able to take crap parts and stupid management and turn out a quality product anyway.
A couple of things to ponder:
1. Our starting number 2 receiver is now out with the trash.
2. Our starting #3 receiver is now out with the trash.
3. Never really had a TE. (its how you beat the cover two, and guess what, we never were able to)
4. The guy who was our starting LT is now out with the trash
5. Our starting RT will likely be out with the trash in the next couple of weeks
6. A center so bad he was replaced and moved to another position.
7. Our starting RG/RT cant stay healthy for more than ½ a season.
8. Our coaching staff so bad that most havent been picked up even at lower positions than they held here.
Yup, thems be some quality players on the offense and a real crack management team. For the life of me, I cant see why Carr couldnt make us contenders with ALL of that quality to work with. Is Carr perfect .heck no, but show me ANY player, QB or otherwise that doesnt have some sort of holes in his game. Its interesting that those who judge players for a living think Carrs the real deal, but some know nothing fans just absolutely know he is not worth paying to play. Personally .I will follow what the professional evaluators say and ignore the disingenuous and agenda driven ranting of a fan who is intent on creating what would amount to an urban legend by constantly repeating the same erroneous drivel that some folks will just pick up and repeat without looking at what is being said and what is actually behind the statements. If Carr gets the NFL standard of 3.5 to 4.5 seconds to get rid of the ball 85% of the time, on a consistent basis so that he can trust what he will be getting, and the running game is at least average and if he cant put some solid numbers up, then kick him to the curb and move on. Until you stop feeding the machine broken and used parts, you dont replace the best that was available at the time you got it, because it isnt proven to be broken.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
edo783 said:
Good stuff and agree with mostly everything here. The only issue I have is that the leadership went with a proprietary machine at the onset and not a standards based platform which would have solved many of your parts and maintenance issues on the back end.
hollywood_texan
All Pro
aj. said:
Agreed, but I think this thing is going to be somewhere in the middle at the end of next season.
My prediction, he won't blow the doors off (silence all critics) and will still leave a lot of doubt (however, there will still be enough hope that he can do better). Then you get into the whole discussion of who is going to replace him. We might just be better off keeping him than having some musical chairs at quarterback like Miami or anywhere else. Brad Johnson back at Minnesota, Aaron Brooks in Oakland, and Kerry Collins will probably play somewhere.
We just need a really strong defense and a good running game and put Carr in a position to not lose a game.
Back when I was in the semiconductor industry, that was the Adept Cartesian Robot. Accurate to a half a micron when placing a glass slide. But who places glass slides? Oh, it's another David Carr thread...edo783 said:
My position on Carr is the same as it's always been. Give the guy average protection, just average, and then we can see what he's got. Look, I was a pro-Reggie guy. But if Carr is a winning QB, he shouldn't need a perfect part like a Reggie Bush. A Domanick Davis that's a little worn around the edges should work just fine. Just take the lens cap off the camera so the guy can read the fiducials (how's that for a weird, inside reference?).
Hulk75
Veteran
Wow........hollywood_texan said:You did go through it again.
What question didn't have logic?
From a logic perspective, you state Carr cannot stepup becuase his line sucked. Newflash, Carr's play isn't dependent on anyone else's. It is a team sport but guys have performed and succeeded with less.
I don't have to be able to read defense, Carr does. And if he could, why did he always dump off the to Dominick every other pass play? Besides, he stated he didn't review game film until late in the season because he wasn't really allowed to audible.
This is logical, take hit after hit and you are a leader. I don't think it works that way.
You say only 4 times, he was sacked about 50 times, so that is almost 10% of his sacks. He is a paid professional and should never make that mistake. In addition, against Indy last year at home, while going for a 2-point conversion, he threw the ball away in the back of end zone when he should have threaded because an interception more than likely would have been meaningless. If has to throw it away every time, fine.
I don't think Kubiak is an idiot. Where in my post or in my logic did you come up with that? You need to relax dude. As for defenses fearing David Carr, I highly doubt it. The talent level is too close and these guys train all year to be afraid of anyone.
Carr has not proven that he is even a good quarterback yet, and he is going to get year 5 to prove it. You can make up all sorts of reasons, but that is just a fact. People in life and in the game of football have succeeded with less than what David Carr has had in his first 4 years as a Texan.
Who cares about Carr anyway? All the Texans need are a strong defense and a good running game, and the rest will take care of itself. Quarterbacks of today don't need to really win games as much as they don't need to lose them to go to the Super Bowl.
Oh, and it is mental for David Carr. Even the guys that say he is going to be successful say he can't be shellshocked. I think shellshocked is a mental issue.
Your right he sucks.
I don't know. In life, Carr seems to be pretty successful. Money, family, great job. Looks pretty good from here.hollywood_texan said:
In the game of football, who has succeeded with less than what David Carr has had to work with? Really, I'd like to know.
TexansLucky13
53d Signal Batt
I do agree with the general idea that QBs are not altogether "necessary" for a SB win. Don't get me wrong... I would expect the SB win to go to the team that has a stronger QB. But look at the Steelers v. Seahawks..... Rottenburger played like a rookie (which he is), but his youth and leadership quality took up the slack. A guy like Manning... who gets what he wants and pretty much runs the horseshoes... can't do what an above-average, leadership caliber QB can. Peyton just needs to man up! (Or man down, if you consider the size of his salary).
I agree. And for those who say that we "could have taken Harrington" with the 1st pick instead of Carr.... what has Joey done that is so much better than David? I have mentioned it before.... the only difference, as of this offseason by the statbook, is sacks! They both have 10,000 yards and a basket full of TDs and INTs. Harrington's rating is slightly higher... but look what Carr has had to deal with here! We really do have a rare talent in David.... and he will sprout under Kubiaks vision.
Lucky said:
I agree. And for those who say that we "could have taken Harrington" with the 1st pick instead of Carr.... what has Joey done that is so much better than David? I have mentioned it before.... the only difference, as of this offseason by the statbook, is sacks! They both have 10,000 yards and a basket full of TDs and INTs. Harrington's rating is slightly higher... but look what Carr has had to deal with here! We really do have a rare talent in David.... and he will sprout under Kubiaks vision.