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Calling the shots: NFL head coaches who refuse to give up playcalling.

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
We are going to have to agree to disagree. I think you are underestimating the number of posters who want to see a balanced attack. I doubt any posters are calling for the R&S.

As far as the game plan offense and identity. Here is a little secret. EVERY team runs a game plan offense. It's not something that is unique to the EP offense. Every year, it seems the Patriots struggle through the first month of the season and then turn it on. IMHO, they are trying to evaluate what is going to be their identity for the year based on available personnel.

In 2016, when Gronk was injured, regardless of the opponent and the Patriots' game plan offense, their identity was running the ball and their quick passing game revolved around the RBs and slot WRs. Regardless of the week, opponent or game plan. That led to 159 targets to Edelman, but 18 rushing TDs for Blount. Who on earth would have expected LeGarrette Blount to score 18 TDs in a season?

In 2009, when they had Moss, their identity was a downfield passing team and running games built around the skillsets of multiple RBs.
In 2010, with Hernandez and Gronk they became a heavy two TE set offense
In later years, they became a slot WR and TE centric offense.

My point is when people say offensive identity, it's not wanting a pass happy offense. It's how you use the personnel on hand to achieve that balance offense. It's doing a better job establishing roles on the team. When they say creativity, they are not asking for an offensive genius to reinvent the wheel. They are asking for more formations, pick plays, combination routes, better play calling during a game, better use of personnel and groupings.
Tex will have a come back. But man this is spot the freak-a-zoid on. Nobody can agrue against this elaborate breakdown. My thing with Bill O’Brien is, you were e apart of that dynamic team ( New England Patriots). But it seems he’s trying to put his own spin on that particular system. So far his version isn’t working. Maybe he will get it going this season.
 
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santo

All Pro
Contributor's Club
......don't forget the TE position. Before OB's arrival, the team had a guy named Owen Daniels and he was pretty dammed good. OB came from NE where gifted TE's were gameplanned for yet couldn't be stopped. In Houston, OB has successfully buried the position into being a nothing burger. There's far too much talent at the position to get as little as he has gotten.
Going by what Cam Newton said about the Patriot Offense being like Calculus, OB has taken the Calculus offense and turned it into Quantum Physics.
 

Earl34

Veteran
Going by what Cam Newton said about the Patriot Offense being like Calculus, OB has taken the Calculus offense and turned it into Quantum Physics.
Speaking of Newton. The perception of Cam is that he's a big, strong armed, throw the ball downfield QB who will be a bad fit in the Patriots' EP offense. However, the last couple of years, he has become more efficient by targeting Christian McCaffrey and slot WRs more and more and throwing the ball downfield less.

If he is healthy and can get up to speed with the playbook. I wouldn't be surprise to see the Patriots' offensive identity be a quick passing offense built around the slot WRs and RBs. He will probably have a career high in completion percentage and shred defenses that are expecting him to hold the ball looking for chunk plays downfield.

I'm not saying they will not miss Brady. Just that it will be a better fit than people think and it will demonstrate once and for all that you don't need a certain type of QB to effectively run the vaunted EP offense.
:shades:
 
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Mr teX

Hall of Fame
You’d be pressing a losing argument in thinking DC’s weren't fully aware of OD each and every season beyond the 1 season you feel he was respectable.
that’s means didley poo in the grand scheme of what he actually did. Teams were aware of Nuk every week..it didn’t really change his production on the field.
 

cuppacoffee

Resident Grouch
Now that’s funny. I’m going to go with the law of quadratic reciprocity using cohomology of groups. Lol
Problem is that doesn't always work.

There is a relation between (generalized) cohomology theories and spectra. If you have a cohomology theory hnhn satisfying Eilenberg-Steenrod axioms, you get a spectra, that is a seq. of spaces AnAn, with some relations. Then the homology groups hnhn of a space XX can be identified with the homotopy classes of maps into the the spectra AnAn. I.e. you have an natural isomorphism hn(X)≅[X,An]

In other words the receiver sometimes runs the wrong route AnAn of a space XX, or the QB holds the ball too long hn(X)=[X,An]. Other than that it is a sound principal.:thinking:

:coffee:
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You are moving the goal posts. You initially said you didn't hear or read of anyone saying he was a offensive genius or QB coach. I showed it was said and now you question who said it and want to debate the offensive genius label. So, I'll take your point that terms like offensive genius, guru, QB whisperer, and elite gets thrown around too casually and I will state it another way.

IMHO, when you hire a June Jones, Norv Turner, Gary Kubiak, Kyle Shanahan, Buddy Ryan, Sean McVay, Sean Payton, Andy Reid, Todd Bowles, Rex Ryan or any coach you want to name as your HC, right or wrong, the expectations are their side of the ball will be above average, competent and the strength of the team.

Yes. It comes down to talent and execution. However, if not an offensive genius, shouldn't we at least expect more production than what we have gotten from an offensive minded HC? Six years after he was hired, O'Brien is still looking for a competent slot WR. Does it take an offensive genius to identify/integrate a slot WR in the offense or just a competent OC?

You laugh when you read posters mentioning scheme and creativity. We are talking about offensive identity, formations, motion, pick plays, hot reads, easier QB reads, route combinations and many of the things you see from the top NFL offenses. However, when your team consistently cannot run a screen pass and you watch teams like the Saints and Chiefs run screen passes in their sleep, at what point do you think it's more than player talent and execution?
I guess Mr. Tex should've said anybody of significance. You know somebody that was a GM/HC.
 

Earl34

Veteran
I guess Mr. Tex should've said anybody of significance. You know somebody that was a GM/HC.
I guess every time Wade Phillips is hired, to prove he is a great defensive coach, we need NFL GMs and HCs to proclaim his greatness. Otherwise, you shouldn't expect an above average defense from him.

I guess we should tell Cardinals and Panthers' fans that GMs and HCs are not calling Rhule and Kingsbury offensive geniuses so they should not expect creative play calling or efficient offenses from coaches they hired based on........their offenses.

With that mindset, no wonder division titles are celebrated on Kirby. They know their customers.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
We are going to have to agree to disagree. I think you are underestimating the number of posters who want to see a balanced attack. I doubt any posters are calling for the R&S.

As far as the game plan offense and identity. Here is a little secret. EVERY team runs a game plan offense. It's not something that is unique to the EP offense. Every year, it seems the Patriots struggle through the first month of the season and then turn it on. IMHO, they are trying to evaluate what is going to be their identity for the year based on available personnel.

In 2016, when Gronk was injured, regardless of the opponent and the Patriots' game plan offense, their identity was running the ball and their quick passing game revolved around the RBs and slot WRs. Regardless of the week, opponent or game plan. That led to 159 targets to Edelman, but 18 rushing TDs for Blount. Who on earth would have expected LeGarrette Blount to score 18 TDs in a season?

In 2009, when they had Moss, their identity was a downfield passing team and running games built around the skillsets of multiple RBs.
In 2010, with Hernandez and Gronk they became a heavy two TE set offense
In later years, they became a slot WR and TE centric offense.

My point is when people say offensive identity, it's not wanting a pass happy offense. It's how you use the personnel on hand to achieve that balance offense. It's doing a better job establishing roles on the team. When they say creativity, they are not asking for an offensive genius to reinvent the wheel. They are asking for more formations, pick plays, combination routes, better play calling during a game, better use of personnel and groupings.
The Pats are the exception to the rule and you using them as an example is like apples to oranges with almost every team in the league......but even with them.....they‘ve had the same consistent identity every single year..it just hasn’t been tied to any particular way of attack, style of play calling, scheme or “creativity” like most teams but rather to their mode of operation..... Which has been to out-execute you for 56 minutes.....and be remarkably consistent and so much better at doing that than everyone else that you have to play a near perfect game to beat them. Even making 1-2 mistakes a game can cost you. Noone has been better at that probably in the history of the sport.And contrary to popular belief, rosters don’t turnover that much from year to year so identities tend to not change too much....unless the HC or qb changes.

So yes every HC says he wants to be balanced, yes every HC has some degree of a gameplan offense, but few stick to their guns in that regard once injuries start to hit and very few change their offensive approach when losses begin to pile up. They just start chucking it more and/or throw in the towel on the season at a certain point. None of that has been the case with BoB and its why most times his teams down the stretch have performed better than at the start.....like the Pats.


I’ve long held that The thought process most fans have that it is the play/scheme that makes all the difference is patently false b/c Most times the offenses aren’t changing their reads and route combinations on a week to week basis; they know where they’re going on each play. The defense however has a finite number of ways and coverages they can play you so they have to rely heavily on disguises and the skill levels of the defenders and that is what has the biggest effect; how those guys defend your individual skill guys......and how you as an offense execute against that.


A Reporter questioning DW4 after the Carolina loss thought he was on to something when he asked DW4 why he kept throwing the ball where he was in that horrible game he had...when he broke it down to the reporter as to why, it shed a whole new light on everything.
My point here is we as fans have a very limited window to look at the team on Sundays. So Who is to say you as a fan knows what “better” is? Many here thought Mallet was gonna be the “better” qb to play over Hoyer..based on what exactly? A few preseason snaps, a much livelier arm and a few stand ins for Brady?

finally I also challenge you to really sit down and watch tape of our guys on offense and compare our route combos, personnel groupings and plays in general to other more “explosive” offenses like KC. What you’re going to find is that 75-80 of what each team is running....pretty much the same stuff. Trips left with your 3 best WR’s is the same for every team. Attacking a 2 high safety cover 2...everyone does it the same way...with a smash route concept. How successful that is depends on whether you have a Tyreke Hill and Mecole Hardman and Sammy Watkins running that vs a rookie, a 1st round bust in his 1st week with the team and another guy well past his prime....with no pass rush to help them out.
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
The Pats are the exception to the rule and you using them as an example is like apples to oranges with almost every team in the league......but even with them.....they‘ve had the same consistent identity every single year..it just hasn’t been tied to any particular way of attack, style of play calling, scheme or “creativity” like most teams but rather to their mode of operation..... Which has been to out-execute you for 56 minutes.....and be remarkably consistent and so much better at doing that than everyone else that you have to play a near perfect game to beat them. Even making 1-2 mistakes a game can cost you. Noone has been better at that probably in the history of the sport.And contrary to popular belief, rosters don’t turnover that much from year to year so identities tend to not change too much....unless the HC or qb changes.

So yes every HC says he wants to be balanced, yes every HC has some degree of a gameplan offense, but few stick to their guns in that regard once injuries start to hit and very few change their offensive approach when losses begin to pile up. They just start chucking it more and/or throw in the towel on the season at a certain point. None of that has been the case with BoB and its why most times his teams down the stretch have performed better than at the start.....like the Pats.


I’ve long held that The thought process most fans have that it is the play/scheme that makes all the difference is patently false b/c Most times the offenses aren’t changing their reads and route combinations on a week to week basis; they know where they’re going on each play. The defense however has a finite number of ways and coverages they can play you so they have to rely heavily on disguises and the skill levels of the defenders and that is what has the biggest effect; how those guys defend your individual skill guys......and how you as an offense execute against that.


A Reporter questioning DW4 after the Carolina loss thought he was on to something when he asked DW4 why he kept throwing the ball where he was in that horrible game he had...when he broke it down to the reporter as to why, it shed a whole new light on everything.
My point here is we as fans have a very limited window to look at the team on Sundays. So Who is to say you as a fan knows what “better” is? Many here thought Mallet was gonna be the “better” qb to play over Hoyer..based on what exactly? A few preseason snaps, a much livelier arm and a few stand ins for Brady?

finally I also challenge you to really sit down and watch tape of our guys on offense and compare our route combos, personnel groupings and plays in general to other more “explosive” offenses like KC. What you’re going to find is that 75-80 of what each team is running....pretty much the same stuff. Trips left with your 3 best WR’s is the same for every team. Attacking a 2 high safety cover 2...everyone does it the same way...with a smash route concept. How successful that is depends on whether you have a Tyreke Hill and Mecole Hardman and Sammy Watkins running that vs a rookie, a 1st round bust in his 1st week with the team and another guy well past his prime....with no pass rush to help them out.
Keep on preaching this.

There's so much truth in this post.
 

Earl34

Veteran
The Pats are the exception to the rule and you using them as an example is like apples to oranges with almost every team in the league......but even with them.....they‘ve had the same consistent identity every single year..it just hasn’t been tied to any particular way of attack, style of play calling, scheme or “creativity” like most teams but rather to their mode of operation..... Which has been to out-execute you for 56 minutes.....and be remarkably consistent and so much better at doing that than everyone else that you have to play a near perfect game to beat them. Even making 1-2 mistakes a game can cost you. Noone has been better at that probably in the history of the sport.And contrary to popular belief, rosters don’t turnover that much from year to year so identities tend to not change too much....unless the HC or qb changes.

So yes every HC says he wants to be balanced, yes every HC has some degree of a gameplan offense, but few stick to their guns in that regard once injuries start to hit and very few change their offensive approach when losses begin to pile up. They just start chucking it more and/or throw in the towel on the season at a certain point. None of that has been the case with BoB and its why most times his teams down the stretch have performed better than at the start.....like the Pats.


I’ve long held that The thought process most fans have that it is the play/scheme that makes all the difference is patently false b/c Most times the offenses aren’t changing their reads and route combinations on a week to week basis; they know where they’re going on each play. The defense however has a finite number of ways and coverages they can play you so they have to rely heavily on disguises and the skill levels of the defenders and that is what has the biggest effect; how those guys defend your individual skill guys......and how you as an offense execute against that.


A Reporter questioning DW4 after the Carolina loss thought he was on to something when he asked DW4 why he kept throwing the ball where he was in that horrible game he had...when he broke it down to the reporter as to why, it shed a whole new light on everything.
My point here is we as fans have a very limited window to look at the team on Sundays. So Who is to say you as a fan knows what “better” is? Many here thought Mallet was gonna be the “better” qb to play over Hoyer..based on what exactly? A few preseason snaps, a much livelier arm and a few stand ins for Brady?

finally I also challenge you to really sit down and watch tape of our guys on offense and compare our route combos, personnel groupings and plays in general to other more “explosive” offenses like KC. What you’re going to find is that 75-80 of what each team is running....pretty much the same stuff. Trips left with your 3 best WR’s is the same for every team. Attacking a 2 high safety cover 2...everyone does it the same way...with a smash route concept. How successful that is depends on whether you have a Tyreke Hill and Mecole Hardman and Sammy Watkins running that vs a rookie, a 1st round bust in his 1st week with the team and another guy well past his prime....with no pass rush to help them out.
I use the Pats as the example because......O'Brien's only NFL experience has been with the Patriots. He wasn't hired to bring the Steelers' way to Kirby. If he was a WCO coach with multiple NFL stops, I would use past performance as the comparison. For the record, I'm not saying O'Brien is stupid or doesn't know X's and O's. I'm saying his EP implementation, coaching, play calling and use of available personnel is average at best. The topic of this thread is giving up play calling. My point is he should have given up play calling a long time ago and to a veteran OC because quite frankly, he's average at best at it.

You might not agree, but I do agree with the majority of your post. Where we seem to disagree is you seem to think it's a matter of talent/personnel/execution and I think it's talent/personnel/execution/coaching and I lean toward coaching making up for shortcomings on the side of the ball that got them the HC job.

Besides the Hopkins' spinning play against the Cowboys and maybe ONE screen pass to Will Fuller. Can you recall the last time, we ran a WR or RB screen pass that made you say, "that was a great, timely screen pass? A WR/RB screen is easy money. Looking at the video below, that's a staple of the Chiefs offense. Is that Hill's pure talent or execution based on play call timing and how they teach/coach that play? Look at Hill lining up in the backfield and then going in motion to get the screen pass. Have we seen that with Duke Johnson or Coutee? Isn't the return on this play better than a Miller/Hyde shotgun run to get you in better 2nd and 3rd down situations?

 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I use the Pats as the example because......O'Brien's only NFL experience has been with the Patriots. He wasn't hired to bring the Steelers' way to Kirby. If he was a WCO coach with multiple NFL stops, I would use past performance as the comparison. For the record, I'm not saying O'Brien is stupid or doesn't know X's and O's. I'm saying his EP implementation, coaching, play calling and use of available personnel is average at best. The topic of this thread is giving up play calling. My point is he should have given up play calling a long time again and to a veteran OC because quite frankly, he's average at best at it.

You might not agree, but I do agree with the majority of your post. Where we seem to disagree is you seem to think it's a matter of talent/personnel/execution and I think it's talent/personnel/execution/coaching and I lean toward coaching making up for shortcomings on the side of the ball that got them the HC job.

Besides the Hopkins' spinning play against the Cowboys and maybe ONE screen pass to Will Fuller. Can you recall the last time, we ran a WR or RB screen pass that made you say, "that was a great, timely screen pass? A WR/RB screen is easy money. Looking at the video below, that's a staple of the Chiefs offense. Is that Hill's pure talent or execution based on play call timing and how they teach/coach that play? Look at Hill lining up in the backfield and then going in motion to get the screen pass. Have we seen that with Duke Johnson or Coutee? Isn't the return on this play better than a Miller/Hyde shotgun run to get you in better 2nd and 3rd down situations?

Tyreke Hill is a one of a kind player who's not Texans Worthy. (You know what else his has that the Texans dont? A SB ring) The Texans dont have a player like him. No other team in the NFL does.

I too believe that 75-80% of playcalls in the NFL are basically the same. Some of those screens BOB's run. Talent is the difference. Remember when fans on here used to complain when Kubiak ran screens?

Talent/execution are the biggest differences in the NFL. Good news is that the Texans will have Chiefs like speed next yr. The only thing they will be missing is Kelce. (Kelce, another guy who wasn't Texans worthy.) Are you beginning to notice a theme here?

Hopefully the same thing happens with Warring that happened with Kelce, Kelce was coming off a knee injury and basically got a redshirt yr then turned into a star.
 
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Earl34

Veteran
So yes every HC says he wants to be balanced, yes every HC has some degree of a gameplan offense, but few stick to their guns in that regard once injuries start to hit and very few change their offensive approach when losses begin to pile up. They just start chucking it more and/or throw in the towel on the season at a certain point. None of that has been the case with BoB and its why most times his teams down the stretch have performed better than at the start.....like the Pats.
You make a fair point about the Patriots being an outlier and an unfair comparison. So, I will move from the Patriots and give you the 2019 Eagles. Their personnel is similar to the Texans. They have Desean Jackson who is comparable to Fuller and we'll say Alshon Jeffery is a poor man's Hopkins.

Pederson is from the Reid coaching tree and running some of the same plays you mentioned in your previous posts. Jeffery and Jackson have injury plagued 2019 season where they combine to only play 13 games and had 50 catches between them. What did Pederson do? He changed the offense to a heavy running game with two RBs and the passing game revolved around the TEs and RBs. That was their 2019 identity.

In 2019, without their top 2 WRs, the Eagles scored more points (385) than the Texans (378). Their QB ended up with 4000 yards, 27 TDs and not one WR had more than 500 yards receiving. That is what I'm talking about when I stress coaching can/should make up the talent gap. Now compare that with the Texans performance when Fuller is out. Do we see an increase in the use of TEs and RBs or does the offense grind to a halt? That's my point.
 
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Earl34

Veteran
Tyreke Hill is a one of a kind player who's not Texans Worthy. (You know what else his has that the Texans dont? A SB ring) The Texans dont have a player like him. No other team in the NFL does.

I too believe that 75-80% of playcalls in the NFL are basically the same. Some of those screens BOB's run. Talent is the difference. Remember when fans on here used to complain when Kubiak ran screens?

Talent/execution are the biggest differences in the NFL. Good news is that the Texans will have Chiefs like speed next yr. The only thing they will be missing is Kelce. (Kelce, another guy who wasn't Texans worthy.) Are you beginning to notice a theme here?

Hopefully the same thing happens with Warring that happened with Kelce, Kelce was coming off a knee injury and basically got a redshirt yr then turned into a star.
I specifically picked that video because it was not Hill just out running people with his talent. It was the motion, OL execution and Hill based on how Reid coaches screen passes. It was the easy 5-10 yard pickups.

I hope with Kelly and the new speed on offense will make the offense better. Even the "Greatest show on turf" had Faulk gaining 1000 rushing per season. I want a balance offense. TEs running in the seams, the Johnsons getting matchups on LBs, more motion, Cobb and Coutee getting separation in the slot, Fuller/Cooks taking defenses deep and opening up the middle of the field. My preference would have been for him to hire an experience OC, but baby steps. He should give up the play calling. Which is the point of this thread.

I don't think that is too much to ask for a coach who was hired for his reputation as a offensive genius, QB whisperer, guru, offensive minded, former 2010 Patriots OC. See Mr. Tex. I'm resetting my expectations.
:shades:
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
I use the Pats as the example because......O'Brien's only NFL experience has been with the Patriots. He wasn't hired to bring the Steelers' way to Kirby. If he was a WCO coach with multiple NFL stops, I would use past performance as the comparison. For the record, I'm not saying O'Brien is stupid or doesn't know X's and O's. I'm saying his EP implementation, coaching, play calling and use of available personnel is average at best. The topic of this thread is giving up play calling. My point is he should have given up play calling a long time again and to a veteran OC because quite frankly, he's average at best at it.

You might not agree, but I do agree with the majority of your post. Where we seem to disagree is you seem to think it's a matter of talent/personnel/execution and I think it's talent/personnel/execution/coaching and I lean toward coaching making up for shortcomings on the side of the ball that got them the HC job.

Besides the Hopkins' spinning play against the Cowboys and maybe ONE screen pass to Will Fuller. Can you recall the last time, we ran a WR or RB screen pass that made you say, "that was a great, timely screen pass? A WR/RB screen is easy money. Looking at the video below, that's a staple of the Chiefs offense. Is that Hill's pure talent or execution based on play call timing and how they teach/coach that play? Look at Hill lining up in the backfield and then going in motion to get the screen pass. Have we seen that with Duke Johnson or Coutee? Isn't the return on this play better than a Miller/Hyde shotgun run to get you in better 2nd and 3rd down situations?


Keep on preaching.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
You make a fair point about the Patriots being an outlier and an unfair comparison. So, I will move from the Patriots and give you the 2019 Eagles. Their personnel is similar to the Texans. They have Desean Jackson who is comparable to Fuller and we'll say Alshon Jeffery is a poor man's Hopkins.

Pederson is from the Reid coaching tree and running some of the same plays you mentioned in your previous posts. Jeffery and Jackson have injury plagued 2019 season where they combine to only play 13 games and had 50 catches between them. What did Pederson do? He changed the offense to a heavy running game with two RBs and the passing game revolved around the TEs and RBs. That was their 2019 identity.

In 2019, without their top 2 WRs, the Eagles scored more points (385) than the Texans (378). Their QB ended up with 4000 yards, 27 TDs and not one WR had more than 500 yards receiving. That is what I'm talking about when I stress coaching can/should make up the talent gap. Now compare that with the Texans performance when Fuller is out. Do we see an increase in the use of TEs and RBs or does the offense grind to a halt? That's my point.
The Eagles have 2 TE's better than any TE currently on the Texans roster. They also had one of the best OL's in the NFL. (Not something you can say about the Texans) They also have a very good defense (Something you also cant say about the Texans.) and let's not even get into the DW4/Wentz debate. Wentz did more with less.
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Usually, I can count on you or @Texansballer74 to warn or get me out of the hole. You guys were busy, left me to my own devices and this is the result. LOL
Bro when you’re an avid follower of not just your team but football in general. It’s extremely hard not to step back in the lion’s den aka rabbits hole. Earl you brought the funk today. Good stuff. Tex was on his game too.


Great debate fellows
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I just completed a major project at work that had me stressed for months. So, after a week off and COVID-19 has me with nowhere to go, I'm relaxed, full of energy and ready to talk/debate some football. @Mr teX and @steelbtexan, keep it coming. I'm still at bat.
I love talking football with you, and we actually agree with more things than you think. Lets just not talk about DW4 and we can have a constructive debate.

I would love to know what you think about the Texans defense and the talent they added in the draft and how you see the young guys fitting in. Do you think they are going to improve this yr?
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
The Eagles have 2 TE's better than any TE currently on the Texans roster. They also had one of the best OL's in the NFL. (Not something you can say about the Texans) They also have a very good defense (Something you also cant say about the Texans.) and let's not even get into the DW4/Wentz debate. Wentz did more with less.
The thing is Obrien has to use what he has and use them consistently. If he would’ve used them in every game, we probably could’ve said ours were better. They have the potential and build to be pretty darn good. Shoots even Fells was top notch in the red zone. Unfortunately when you have a terrible oline you have to either keep them in to block or bring in another tackle. The Eagles oline is really good and they don’t have to keep their tight ends in to help block.
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
I specifically picked that video because it was not Hill just out running people with his talent. It was the motion, OL execution and Hill based on how Reid coaches screen passes. It was the easy 5-10 yard pickups.

I hope with Kelly and the new speed on offense will make the offense better. Even the "Greatest show on turf" had Faulk gaining 1000 rushing per season. I want a balance offense. TEs running in the seams, the Johnsons getting matchups on LBs, more motion, Cobb and Coutee getting separation in the slot, Fuller/Cooks taking defenses deep and opening up the middle of the field. My preference would have been for him to hire an experience OC, but baby steps. He should give up the play calling. Which is the point of this thread.

I don't think that is too much to ask for a coach who was hired for his reputation as a offensive genius, QB whisperer, guru, offensive minded, former 2010 Patriots OC. See Mr. Tex. I'm resetting my expectations.
:shades:
The talent is there this yr to do the things you listed. (If healthy)
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
I love talking football with you, and we actually agree with more things than you think. Lets just not talk about DW4 and we can have a constructive debate.

I would love to know what you think about the Texans defense and the talent they added in the draft and how you see the young guys fitting in. Do you think they are going to improve this yr?
It’s hard to predict what type of defense we will see this season. Watt is an injury away from retiring. Weaver has a lot of work ahead of him. I am curious to see what defensive philosophy he will employ. I want to say the secondary should be better than last season. But I’m not going to bet my bottom dollar on them. I don’t see any of the rookie making any big time splashes. I am hoping to see Duke Ejiofor and Charles Omenihu to take their games to the next level.
 
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steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
It’s hard to predict what type of defense we will see this season. Watt is an injury away from retiring. Weaver has a lot of work ahead of him. I am curious to see what defensive philosophy he will employ. I want to say the secondary should be better than last season. But I’m not going to bet my bottom dollar on them. I don’t see any of the rookie making any big time splash. I hoping to see Duke Ejiofor and Charles Omenihu to take their games to the next level.
I do think that a DL of Watt/Blacklock/ an improved Omenihu/Mercilus and Martin is really going to improve the pass rush. If Martin can bulk up just a little to better set the edge he could be the pass rusher the defense was missing last yr.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
The thing is Obrien has to use what he has and use them consistently. If he would’ve used them in every game, we probably could’ve said ours were better. They have the potential and build to be pretty darn good. Shoots even Fells was top notch in the red zone. Unfortunately when you have a terrible oline you have to either keep them in to block or bring in another tackle. The Eagles oline is really good and they don’t have to keep their tight ends in to help block.
The Eagles did keep Goeddert in to block quite a bit last year.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
I use the Pats as the example because......O'Brien's only NFL experience has been with the Patriots. He wasn't hired to bring the Steelers' way to Kirby. If he was a WCO coach with multiple NFL stops, I would use past performance as the comparison. For the record, I'm not saying O'Brien is stupid or doesn't know X's and O's. I'm saying his EP implementation, coaching, play calling and use of available personnel is average at best. The topic of this thread is giving up play calling. My point is he should have given up play calling a long time ago and to a veteran OC because quite frankly, he's average at best at it.

You might not agree, but I do agree with the majority of your post. Where we seem to disagree is you seem to think it's a matter of talent/personnel/execution and I think it's talent/personnel/execution/coaching and I lean toward coaching making up for shortcomings on the side of the ball that got them the HC job.

Besides the Hopkins' spinning play against the Cowboys and maybe ONE screen pass to Will Fuller. Can you recall the last time, we ran a WR or RB screen pass that made you say, "that was a great, timely screen pass? A WR/RB screen is easy money. Looking at the video below, that's a staple of the Chiefs offense. Is that Hill's pure talent or execution based on play call timing and how they teach/coach that play? Look at Hill lining up in the backfield and then going in motion to get the screen pass. Have we seen that with Duke Johnson or Coutee? Isn't the return on this play better than a Miller/Hyde shotgun run to get you in better 2nd and 3rd down situations?

I use the Pats as the example because......O'Brien's only NFL experience has been with the Patriots. He wasn't hired to bring the Steelers' way to Kirby. If he was a WCO coach with multiple NFL stops, I would use past performance as the comparison. For the record, I'm not saying O'Brien is stupid or doesn't know X's and O's. I'm saying his EP implementation, coaching, play calling and use of available personnel is average at best. The topic of this thread is giving up play calling. My point is he should have given up play calling a long time ago and to a veteran OC because quite frankly, he's average at best at it.

You might not agree, but I do agree with the majority of your post. Where we seem to disagree is you seem to think it's a matter of talent/personnel/execution and I think it's talent/personnel/execution/coaching and I lean toward coaching making up for shortcomings on the side of the ball that got them the HC job.

Besides the Hopkins' spinning play against the Cowboys and maybe ONE screen pass to Will Fuller. Can you recall the last time, we ran a WR or RB screen pass that made you say, "that was a great, timely screen pass? A WR/RB screen is easy money. Looking at the video below, that's a staple of the Chiefs offense. Is that Hill's pure talent or execution based on play call timing and how they teach/coach that play? Look at Hill lining up in the backfield and then going in motion to get the screen pass. Have we seen that with Duke Johnson or Coutee? Isn't the return on this play better than a Miller/Hyde shotgun run to get you in better 2nd and 3rd down situations?

Lol, that’s Tyreke hill’s talent and speed shining through buddy. You can clearly see that the defense had that sniffed out for the most part but His speed and ridiculous acceleration broke him out of the defense’s set up against him before they got into optimal position to stop the play. His talent made that play into what it became.

Go watch us play against them in wk 6...That 1st TD the chiefs scored...that was all Hill.with a ridiculous catch over 2 of our defenders...defensively we had that play down cold with a high low bracket of him with the CB and Justin Reid...yet he went up over both of those guys and came down with the reception. Talent over playcall.

You see, It’s not always necessarily what guys do after they get the ball in their hands that determines whether or not it’s talent and execution over the scheme/playcall...Sometimes its how said player came to get the ball in the 1st place ...even when you’re doing everything right. The play I mention up-post, there should’ve been no way in hell Tyreke Hill came down with that ball based on how we had that defended...yet he somehow did. The playcall had **** to do with that and if you want to be real, it was an ill advised throw by Mahomes..should’ve been picked by Reid.

I’m still convinced you’re not paying close attention to what we do on offense. You can go to the 1st game of the season against the saints and see we’ve had pretty good success running screens. I can think of at least 2 screens we ran with Duke in that game that netted us 8-10 yds. Before him, we didn’t have a RB we trusted to throw the ball to like that...since DW4 has been here anyway. Nuk and Fuller have had pretty good success for us on those WR’s screens at various times. Hell, I can remember Demarius Thomas breaking a WR screen for 20+ yards for us last year in his limited time with us.
 
Same could be said about Mahomes but Reid somehow stayed a step ahead of DC's. OB didn't build on what allowed Watson to set some records as a rookie.....no, he insisted on going back to the same crap offense that's grounded every QB under his watch. Like I stated, if Kelly gets creative with the offense and OB stays detached then there's a very good chance to we'll finally get to see Watson playing in game 8 after those first 7 games.
Yes it can be said for any QB. However, I think Mahomes is a better QB, I love Watson, I just think Mahomes has a lot higher ceiling. And he is showing that it might be the case. Watson doesn't have the arm talent of a Mahomes or Rogers. He is a pocket/scrambling QB. As for improve, he is lacking. We all knew his pass strength was pretty low when he was drafted. So was Brady's so we will see how it goes. Still, what I am saying is that Watson is on film and his improve skills are known. He can run and DCs know it. He likes to throw on the run also. I saw some random YouTube guy show what happens if he is forced to go I think left running. It was far less accurate and less power on the throws. Again, DCs know it. I think he is a good QB and he can win for us. Yet he needs a RB and a safety valve to be/get better. Without a TE and RB he is not as good.

We will see how it goes. I hope I'm wrong about him being as good as we have seen...and not more.
 


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