Broncos Fans' Take on the Texans and Kubiak

[HoustonFrog]

Once again, Miami made the playoffs in 2008 because Brady went on IR in week one. The Texans would've made the playoffs in '08 or '09 if Manning had gone down for the season. Regarding Miami this season and overcoming the loss of Ronnie Brown... The went 7-9! What exactly did they overcome? The Texans won 9 games despite losing 4 offensive starters to the IR, including their best OL, and their elite TE.
.

Ronnie Brown runing the wildcat is the equivalent to losing Schaub or Andre Johnson. With a new QB, that was their offense with Ricky as the 2nd star. The won in 08 because of the Wildcat. The Pats is 2 games and there is no guarantee that Brady wins both games. They still had Cassell and won 11 games. The still had their D. They won 1 game the year before. Dear Lord, step out of the homer-mobile for 5 seconds and look at the reality.

This is why I hate these threads. I threw out 2 teams to play Devil's Advocate because they weren't loaded with talent and had horrible issues and somehow it was never as bad as the Texans in their 4 years of rebuilding. Give some credit where credit is due. That is the whole point to this exercise...to see where the team stands as compared to similar and dissimilar situations.

 

[dalemurphy]

This is a cop out. As I said, they fell backwards a little but they made the playoffs the year before and their top weapon went out mid season. Earlier the conclusion by some was that teams like the Jets had more talent when a rookie HC took over. So not the same as Kubes. So when a team that had nothing is pointed out, then it is because Brady was hurt. The key to their success wasn't Brady out...that is 2 games. The key to their success was taking less talent, running the Wilcat and making something out of nothing. Ronnie Brown and Chad Pennington.

This year they were just as much in the hunt as the Texans until the end. Again, this is a team that two years back was 1-15 and trotting out Cleo Lemon while their coach was quitting and star receiver was getting arrested.

I just don't get when a real example is thrown out, somehow Kubes had it harder and Kubes' situation is so different. What about the Atlanta one?Horrible team, turmoil, rookie QB..playoffs. They got killed at QB and RB in the injury front this year but they built a winner and with all the injuries they were still 9-7. Their first back to back winning records.

You guys have so much patience for other teams and none for your own. "Miami fell back a little bit", you said... They dropped 4 games! They finished this season with a losing record! The Texans beat them last year and this year... both were games that mattered to both teams.

There is NO chance that Miami makes the playoffs in 2008 if Brady doesn't blowout his ACL in week one. That's not a copout. That is reality. The Texans haven't had that kind of fortune yet. If Manning had gone down injured for the season, I'm confident the Texans would've won 11 games and the division.

Miami had a horrible season in 2007 but they were a moderately talented team. They had an established NFL starter at QB: Pennington. They had two good RBs with Brown and Ricky. They also had a lot of nice pieces on defense. The team played over their heads in 2008 and took advantage of some good breaks: Brady's injury and the Jets' self destruction in December. It's to their credit and Soprano's credit that they accomplished what they did. However, I don't think that's the standard you should judge Kubiak by. After all, Soprano couldn't even approach their accomplishes from the '08 season in '09. The circumstances were different and they didn't get the kind of breaks they did the season before.

 

[thunderkyss]

So when a team that had nothing is pointed out, then it is because Brady was hurt. The key to their success wasn't Brady out...that is 2 games. The key to their success was taking less talent, running the Wilcat and making something out of nothing. Ronnie Brown and Chad Pennington.

I think, that was a defensive team. Are you telling me they didn't have anyone on that defense that was worth a damn? When I get home, I'll look, but right now, I'm not buying it.

As far as not having anything on offense, I've always liked Pennington, so that's not a negative to me.

He also had Ronnie Brown, & Riki Williams.

Is there anyone on that offensive line, that is still there? 2 years later? We've got Pitts from Kubiak's 2006 team, and he didn't play after week 3 in 2009.

 

[dalemurphy]

Ronnie Brown runing the wildcat is the equivalent to losing Schaub or Andre Johnson. With a new QB, that was their offense with Ricky as the 2nd star. The won in 08 because of the Wildcat. The Pats is 2 games and there is no guarantee that Brady wins both games. They still had Cassell and won 11 games. The still had their D. They won 1 game the year before. Dear Lord, step out of the homer-mobile for 5 seconds and look at the reality.

This is why I hate these threads. I threw out 2 teams to play Devil's Advocate because they weren't loaded with talent and had horrible issues and somehow it was never as bad as the Texans in their 4 years of rebuilding. Give some credit where credit is due. That is the whole point to this exercise...to see where the team stands as compared to similar and dissimilar situations.

Don't you think that 2 starting guards, the starting RB, and the all-pro TE are significant pieces of the Texan puzzle? By the way, the Texans won 8 games last year despite Schaub missing 5 of them.

Also, NE's defense stinks. If Miami and NE split last year, then Miami is sitting home and NE is in the playoffs. Certainly, that would've happened if Brady was healthy.

Atlanta and Miami were very good stories in 2008. I agree. However, circumstances collide to make those stories happen. It isn't simply a matter of a good coach all of a sudden makes the difference. It helps... But, all those rookie coaches that had so much success in 2008 all stepped back this year: Miami 7-9, Baltimore 9-7, Atlanta 8-8... What happened? Did those coaches all of a sudden start coaching like Kubiak? No. Things just didn't break for them as well as they did the season before.

 

[DexmanC]

Don't you think that 2 starting guards, the starting RB, and the all-pro TE are significant pieces of the Texan puzzle? By the way, the Texans won 8 games last year despite Schaub missing 5 of them.

Also, NE's defense stinks. If Miami and NE split last year, then Miami is sitting home and NE is in the playoffs. Certainly, that would've happened if Brady was healthy.

Atlanta and Miami were very good stories in 2008. I agree. However, circumstances collide to make those stories happen. It isn't simply a matter of a good coach all of a sudden makes the difference. It helps... But, all those rookie coaches that had so much success in 2008 all stepped back this year: Miami 7-9, Baltimore 9-7, Atlanta 8-8... What happened? Did those coaches all of a sudden start coaching like Kubiak? No. Things just didn't break for them as well as they did the season before.

We poo-poo the successes of other rookie coaches, yet pine to keep
one with NO success in FOUR FULL SEASONS. It's an oxymoronic dichotomy of opinion.

 

[ChampionTexan]

Ronnie Brown runing the wildcat is the equivalent to losing Schaub or Andre Johnson. With a new QB, that was their offense with Ricky as the 2nd star.

The Dolphins were 4-5 in the games R. Brown started this year (including an 0-3 start). They were 3-4 in the games after he was put on IR. It's a bit of a stretch to jump to the conclusion that a healthy Ronnie Brown for all 16 games would have had much of an impact on their record.

 

[dalemurphy]

We poo-poo the successes of other rookie coaches, yet pine to keep
one with NO success in FOUR FULL SEASONS. It's an oxymoronic dichotomy of opinion.

What are you talking about! I give those guys a ton of credit. I just realize that chance plays a significant role separating a wild card team with a .500 team from one year to the next. That's why those same coaches that were so successful in 2008 all had lesser seasons. They're still the same good coaches they were before, only things didn't line up well for them this year.

a little side note: If the Texans had gone 11-5 in 2008 and lost in the first round of the playoffs and then followed that season up with a 7-9 season, you and others would be screaming for Kubiak's head. But, since it happens in Miami, you are defending the coach because his RB got hurt. Pretty funny!

 

[HoustonFrog]

Don't you think that 2 starting guards, the starting RB, and the all-pro TE are significant pieces of the Texan puzzle? By the way, the Texans won 8 games last year despite Schaub missing 5 of them.

Also, NE's defense stinks. If Miami and NE split last year, then Miami is sitting home and NE is in the playoffs. Certainly, that would've happened if Brady was healthy.

Atlanta and Miami were very good stories in 2008. I agree. However, circumstances collide to make those stories happen. It isn't simply a matter of a good coach all of a sudden makes the difference. It helps... But, all those rookie coaches that had so much success in 2008 all stepped back this year: Miami 7-9, Baltimore 9-7, Atlanta 8-8... What happened? Did those coaches all of a sudden start coaching like Kubiak? No. Things just didn't break for them as well as they did the season before.

Please Stop.

Atlanta was 9-7..the same as the Texans and a year after making the playoffs. the had dog fighting, no Vick, a no-name coach, etc. How did they do it and not take 5 years?

Also, in 2008, NE had the 10th best D and the 5th best offense. So please stop downplaying how a 1-15 team with low talent turned it around so quickly...a historical turnaround.

Oh I forgot..the Texans didn't get breaks, the Texans injuries were just as bad, the Texans bad breaks didn't matchup with other teams good breaks...............

This is why having a logical, no homer talk is impossible.

a little side note: If the Texans had gone 11-5 in 2008 and lost in the first round of the playoffs and then followed that season up with a 7-9 season, you and others would be screaming for Kubiak's head. But, since it happens in Miami, you are defending the coach because his RB got hurt. Pretty funny!

Completely made up and untrue. People would realize that a top player went down that hurt their chances and would know that the same team got to the playoffs the year before. But that isn't what happened. This isn't a conspiracy about Kubes. It is a rational talk about why building here is a sloths pace compared to teams who were in dire straits and made bigger strides.

I'm out. I tried to have some fun but frustration has set in

 

[DexmanC]

What are you talking about! I give those guys a ton of credit. I just realize that chance plays a significant role separating a wild card team with a .500 team from one year to the next. That's why those same coaches that were so successful in 2008 all had lesser seasons. They're still the same good coaches they were before, only things didn't line up well for them this year.

a little side note: If the Texans had gone 11-5 in 2008 and lost in the first round of the playoffs and then followed that season up with a 7-9 season, you and others would be screaming for Kubiak's head. But, since it happens in Miami, you are defending the coach because his RB got hurt. Pretty funny!

I'd like the opportunity to know what I'd do if this team had an 11-5 playoff
year. My disappointment is not based on a hypothetical. It's based on
FOUR YEARS of being stuck in neutral. If you can't argue with me based
on what's ACTUALLY happened, then don't respond to my posts.

I don't know how I'd react if Kubiak finished his rookie year 11-5, 'cause
it never happened. He finished it 6-10. This was followed up by
two-consecutive 8-8 years, and a miraculous comeback win to finish
ONE game better at 9-7.

So, understand my arguments are based in the points enumerated by the
previous paragraph, and not a hypothetical situation in which the Texans
were a playoff team having a bad year. That's NOT the team we're
discussing. We ARE discussing a team that's hovered around .500 for
FOUR CONSECUTIVE SEASONS.

 

[dalemurphy]

Please Stop.

Atlanta was 9-7..the same as the Texans and a year after making the playoffs. the had dog fighting, no Vick, a no-name coach, etc. How did they do it and not take 5 years?

Also, in 2008, NE had the 10th best D and the 5th best offense. So please stop downplaying how a 1-15 team with low talent turned it around so quickly...a historical turnaround.

Oh I forgot..the Texans didn't get breaks, the Texans injuries were just as bad, the Texans bad breaks didn't matchup with other teams good breaks...............

This is why having a logical, no homer talk is impossible.

What am I downplaying? Atlanta and Miami had two really nice seasons in 2008. They each took a step back in 2009. I can't believe that it is so controversial to suggest that Brady missing 16 games in 2008 cost the Patriots a game or two.

You call Miami's turnaround "historic"... you're right. So stop trying to use it as an assessment tool for Kubiak. It's historic! It almost never happens. The fact that it's historic also is a clue that many factors had to lineup just right in order for that to happen. It did! and good for them. That team this season went 7-9 and lost at home to the Texans in a game with playoff implications.

 

[thunderkyss]

This is why having a logical, no homer talk is impossible.

It is a rational talk about why building here is a sloths pace compared to teams who were in dire straits and made bigger strides.

I believe even Dale would say this team didn't play up to it's talent potential in 2009. Like Dale, I don't think it warrants getting rid of Kubiak.

I've said many times before, that this pace is not what I expected. You call them excuses, I call them good reasons why the pace has been so slow. Not all of those reasons are on Kubiak either.

My point right now, is that we bought a bad bill of goods, at least we didn't get what we expected when we hired Kubiak. I know I didn't.

I believe he is a better head coach now than he was in 2006... I flat out don't think he was ready then. But given what he has done, with what he had... I think he definitely deserves one more year here in Houston.

Contrary to what many here think, I believe if we let Gary go, someone will snatch him up as a HC, & he'll be the next Bellichick. He will have his team winning their division for the next 10 years.

I would like for that to be this team, and I think he'll prove it next year.

I can go into all the reasons why I think that, but you & dex have poo-poo'd those reasons before, so I don't really see the point.

 

[dalemurphy]

I'd like the opportunity to know what I'd do if this team had an 11-5 playoff
year. My disappointment is not based on a hypothetical. It's based on
FOUR YEARS of being stuck in neutral. If you can't argue with me based
on what's ACTUALLY happened, then don't respond to my posts.

I don't know how I'd react if Kubiak finished his rookie year 11-5, 'cause
it never happened. He finished it 6-10. This was followed up by
two-consecutive 8-8 years, and a miraculous comeback win to finish
ONE game better at 9-7.

So, understand my arguments are based in the points enumerated by the
previous paragraph, and not a hypothetical situation in which the Texans
were a playoff team having a bad year. That's NOT the team we're
discussing. We ARE discussing a team that's hovered around .500 for
FOUR CONSECUTIVE SEASONS.

Well, then, let's discuss reality. Which team is better heading into 2010 off-season: the 9-7 Houston Texans or the 7-9 Miami Dolphins. As for me, I think the Texans will outplay the Dolphins again next season, just like they did this year. Any of you that think Soprano is a better coach than Kubiak, PM me. I'll take some bets. You guys can have Miami, or Atlanta next season, and I'll bet on the Texans to finish with a better record than those two teams.

 

[thunderkyss]

It's based on
FOUR YEARS of being stuck in neutral. If you can't argue with me based
on what's ACTUALLY happened, then don't respond to my posts.

To tell you the truth, if you think this is the same team GK took over in 2006, I don't know why dale would respond to your posts anyway.

 

[dalemurphy]

To tell you the truth, if you think this is the same team GK took over in 2006, I don't know why dale would respond to your posts anyway.

Some people really struggle to deal with disappointment, I guess.

Did you see Houstonfrog say that he wouldn't be calling for Kubiak's job if the Texans had done what Miami did, and win 11 games in 2008 and follow that up with 7 in 2009. He said that losing Ronnie Brown is essentially a valid excuse for dropping back 4 games in the W/L column.

I guess, though, that losing both starting Guards, Owen Daniels, and Steve Slaton doesn't excuse the Texans from only IMPROVING by ONE game.

Pretty funny!

 

[HoustonFrog]

I believe even Dale would say this team didn't play up to it's talent potential in 2009. Like Dale, I don't think it warrants getting rid of Kubiak.

I've said many times before, that this pace is not what I expected. You call them excuses, I call them good reasons why the pace has been so slow. Not all of those reasons are on Kubiak either.

My point right now, is that we bought a bad bill of goods, at least we didn't get what we expected when we hired Kubiak. I know I didn't.

I believe he is a better head coach now than he was in 2006... I flat out don't think he was ready then. But given what he has done, with what he had... I think he definitely deserves one more year here in Houston.

Contrary to what many here think, I believe if we let Gary go, someone will snatch him up as a HC, & he'll be the next Bellichick. He will have his team winning their division for the next 10 years.

I would like for that to be this team, and I think he'll prove it next year.

I can go into all the reasons why I think that, but you & dex have poo-poo'd those reasons before, so I don't really see the point.

I don't poo-poo well thought out logical reasons for wanting to keep the guy. I don't even get mad that they kept him. I just think the Texans take an inordinate amount...in NFL standards these days...of time to not do too much and yet it, for a bit, seemed acceptable. That has always been my point. I didn't even bring up Atlanta and Miami to say "fire Kubes." It was only to say that teams in dire straights have done it.

Again, I'm all up for rational talk. And for the last month or so I have stepped way back after giving opinions in original threads concerning all of this. What stopped me was 1) people know my point of view and 2) no matter how football related and fact related a conversation is, some homers will always spin it. Not saying that is you but it isn't in my belief system that the Texans just happen to have bad things while these other teams trip into perfect situations.

Again, the Miami and Atlanta thing was merely a talking point compared to Baltimore and the Jets, etc. After I gave you the lowdown on 08 for them I didn't expect to debate a 10 win turnaround.

Some people really struggle to deal with disappointment, I guess.

Did you see Houstonfrog say that he wouldn't be calling for Kubiak's job if the Texans had done what Miami did, and win 11 games in 2008 and follow that up with 7 in 2009. He said that losing Ronnie Brown is essentially a valid excuse for dropping back 4 games in the W/L column.

I guess, though, that losing both starting Guards, Owen Daniels, and Steve Slaton doesn't excuse the Texans from only IMPROVING by ONE game.

Pretty funny!

Again, you are spinning. Slaton was lost late and was having a bad season to start. So please. Also, I love how Owen Daniels was argued to be expendable before the year and now he is the equivalent to the teams main star player. Dale, my problem with your arguments is that no matter what is presented to you, you have an excuse. If I mention that the Texans offense still produced and that Schaub set top NFL marks with the losses then it turns to...well then it is Kris Brown and Chris Brown. If I mention that the Colts defense played with no one higher than a 3rd stringer in a game against us..it is something else. It's a fruitless debate and exercise.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Personally, I don't care.

I don't care what other coaches have done with other teams. Each situation is different.

I mean, Mora, Jr. had a great first year with the Falcons and then got progressively worse each year. There's nothing that says a Mangini or a Sparano or a Mike Smith is going to be able to keep up that success that they initially had. You can go into a situation and catch a few breaks and look like a genius. Or a great coach could go into a bad situation and have it blow up on him and look bad for a couple of years.

I think a lot of coaches get fired too quickly in this league because the random factors aligned against them. Much like Belichik in Cleveland and his first and third years with the Patriots.

I want someone who's going to be successful over a long period of time.

 

[Texan_Bill]

 

[dalemurphy]

Again, you are spinning. Slaton was lost late and was having a bad season to start. So please. Also, I love how Owen Daniels was argued to be expendable before the year and now he is the equivalent to the teams main star player. Dale, my problem with your arguments is that no matter what is presented to you, you have an excuse. If I mention that the Texans offense still produced and that Schaub set top NFL marks with the losses then it turns to...well then it is Kris Brown and Chris Brown. If I mention that the Colts defense played with no one higher than a 3rd stringer in a game against us..it is something else. It's a fruitless debate and exercise.

What excuse? You are the one that uses an injury to excuse Miami's poor season. I'm not making any excuses. I'm disappointed that the Texans missed the playoffs. I can grab at a dozen things that would have put us in the playoffs had they gone differently. What I'm responding to are the Texan fans that have taken their disappointment with the season and turned it into bitterness and have directed it at Gary Kubiak. I just don't get it. This magical idea that many of you have about getting into the playoffs is hysterical. We have the same record as the Jets and the Ravens. The Jets and the Ravens caught some breaks and ended up in the playoffs. Somehow that makes them better coaches than Kubiak. That is silly.

I drove from Austin to Houston five times this regular season. I saw the Texans win twice. I had to drive home after heartbreaking losses against Tennessee and Indianapolis. I also had to drive home after that fiasco versus NYJets. It sucks! I was committed to travelling to their first playoff game this season.
As disappointed as I am with our results, I am absolutely thrilled with the development of the team! Furthermore, I simply disagree that Kubiak is a worse gameday coach than guys you have been praising. And, I love the fact that the Texans never quit in a game or during a season. That the players so consistently play for Kubiak is a telling sign, I think. I have my issues with Kubiak but I just don't believe a coaching change right now offers the best hope for the Texans to make a run next season. So, that's why I want him back. Furthermore, I'm so excited about this team and enjoy conversing with other Texan fans about them. But, I seem to always get sucked into threads about Kubiak... Probably because he's my coach. I'm grateful for the job he's done. So, I root for him and give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[steelbtexan]

Here I'm going to stir up some poo.

There has never been a champiomship level HC that has coached or played for A&M. I'm talking about div.1, div.2 or the NFL. I dont expect Kubes to change this trend.

A&M grads are great intelligent people with the highest moral standing but they're not leaders.

Hell when you get right down to it A&M is the best engineering university in Texas and they cant even build a bondfire. Embarrising (SP?)

Let the Neg reps begin but the truth hurts.

 

[DexmanC]

Here I'm going to stir up some poo.

There has never been a champiomship level HC that has coached or played for A&M. I'm talking about div.1, div.2 or the NFL. I dont expect Kubes to change this trend.

A&M grads are great intelligent people with the highest moral standing but they're not leaders.

Hell when you get right down to it A&M is the best engineering university in Texas and they cant even build a bondfire. Embarrising (SP?)

OOooohhh. <low blow>

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Here I'm going to stir up some poo.

There has never been a champiomship level HC that has coached or played for A&M. I'm talking about div.1, div.2 or the NFL. I dont expect Kubes to change this trend.

A&M grads are great intelligent people with the highest moral standing but they're not leaders.

Hell when you get right down to it A&M is the best engineering university in Texas and they cant even build a bondfire. Embarrising (SP?)

Let the Neg reps begin but the truth hurts.

OK.

Now.

That's just wrong, man. And you know it.

Funny as hell, though.

 

[JB]

Here I'm going to stir up some poo.

There has never been a champiomship level HC that has coached or played for A&M. I'm talking about div.1, div.2 or the NFL. I dont expect Kubes to change this trend.

A&M grads are great intelligent people with the highest moral standing but they're not leaders.

Hell when you get right down to it A&M is the best engineering university in Texas and they cant even build a bondfire. Embarrising (SP?)

Let the Neg reps begin but the truth hurts.

Bear Bryant dont count?

 

[DexmanC]

To tell you the truth, if you think this is the same team GK took over in 2006, I don't know why dale would respond to your posts anyway.

I don't know why you keep going there to bolster your point. By that logic,
as long as Kubiak doesn't fall to 2-14, he should stay because it's "not
the same squad from '05."

The NFL is the "Honors Level" of football coaching. If a kid continually makes
C's, and you tell him he has ONE MORE SEMESTER TO PULL AN A average,
you shouldn't let him stay because a 'C' is a "passing grade". You don't reach
the standard, WHICH IS ALWAYS SET HIGH, you should go.

FIVE YEARS to pull his first 'A' is lenient enough, do you thinK?

 

[Texan_Bill]

Here I'm going to stir up some poo.

There has never been a champiomship level HC that has coached or played for A&M. I'm talking about div.1, div.2 or the NFL. I dont expect Kubes to change this trend.

A&M grads are great intelligent people with the highest moral standing but they're not leaders.

Hell when you get right down to it A&M is the best engineering university in Texas and they cant even build a bondfire. Embarrising (SP?)

Let the Neg reps begin but the truth hurts.

Jackie Sherrill did alright at A&M


Jorge Quiroga and Martin Torrijos were both heads of state for Bolivia and Panama.
Several Congressmen.
Several Mayors
Several CEO's of major companies
7 Medal of Honor winners.

No negative rep. but you should do some homework before spewing forth.

 

[thunderkyss]

I didn't even bring up Atlanta and Miami to say "fire Kubes." It was only to say that teams in dire straights have done it.

I'll disagree. But we can carry on this discussion later if you want.

2) no matter how football related and fact related a conversation is, some homers will always spin it. Not saying that is you but it isn't in my belief system that the Texans just happen to have bad things while these other teams trip into perfect situations.

I'm not getting that from these debates. But I will say it's difficult to follow an argument on an open forum, such as this. There are so many parallel thoughts going on.. so many threads within a thread, etc..

Again, you are spinning. Slaton was lost late and was having a bad season to start.

854 yards from scrimmage in 11(9) games. Not what we expected but I wouldn't say bad apart from the fumbling thing.

Also, I love how Owen Daniels was argued to be expendable before the year and now he is the equivalent to the teams main star player.

You don't think OD took it to a different level this year?

 

[thunderkyss]

I think a lot of coaches get fired too quickly in this league because the random factors aligned against them. Much like Belichik in Cleveland and his first and third years with the Patriots.

I want someone who's going to be successful over a long period of time.

Do you think Denny Green would have taken the Cardinals to the Super Bowl?

I know we'll never know. But I think he was in much the same situation as Kubiak. In 2004, he took an Arizona Cardinals team with spotty talent, and turned them around. Now though Wisenhunt may be a great coach, he took Green's 8-8 team to 9-7, and a Super Bowl appearance. 2 years later, they are 10-6 & made the play-offs again.

His first three years were pretty lackluster, then when he got the talent level up to snuff, you get the, "They are who we thought they were" speach.

Sounds kind of familiar, no?

And Denny Green was a good coach who got his team the NFC Championship game...

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Do you think Denny Green would have taken the Cardinals to the Super Bowl?

I know we'll never know. But I think he was in much the same situation as Kubiak. In 2004, he took an Arizona Cardinals team with spotty talent, and turned them around. Now though Wisenhunt may be a great coach, he took Green's 8-8 team to 9-7, and a Super Bowl appearance. 2 years later, they are 10-6 & made the play-offs again.

His first three years were pretty lackluster, then when he got the talent level up to snuff, you get the, "They are who we thought they were" speach.

Sounds kind of familiar, no?

And Denny Green was a good coach who got his team the NFC Championship game...

Green ended up putting the pieces in place.

I also look at Belichik. He had that 5-10 year with the Browns and got canned. I don't think his going back to being a DC for a while really improved his ability to be a head coach all that much. And if he hadn't gotten lucky with Brady, he would have been gone after his second season with the Patriots and probably never would have had another chance to be a head coach.

I look at Tom Coughlin. He had a few bad seasons and got canned in Jacksonville. Then he makes the playoffs a couple of years in New York and people are still calling for his head. He saved his job by winning a Super Bowl. I think he's a good coach. He'll be gone next year if he goes 8-8 again and I think that's a shame because i think he's a good coach who could win another SB.

I think coaches get blamed for a lot of things that are out of their control and sometimes praised for stuff they had nothing to do with. I think good (and even great) coaches get canned because people (I'm talking owners usually, but fans, too) have unrealistic expectations. Any coach with a long tenure is going to go through some periods that aren't that great. I think, in many instances, people pull the trigger too quickly.

 

[thunderkyss]

I don't know why you keep going there to bolster your point. By that logic,
as long as Kubiak doesn't fall to 2-14, he should stay because it's "not
the same squad from '05."

Ok, when reading my post, you've got to understand I'm not talking about the W-L record.

I'll restate it for you. If you don't think this team plays better than the team Kubiak took over, the one he took to 6-10, then I don't know why people bother arguing with you.

The NFL is the "Honors Level" of football coaching. If a kid continually makes
C's, and you tell him he has ONE MORE SEMESTER TO PULL AN A average,
you shouldn't let him stay because a 'C' is a "passing grade". You don't reach
the standard, WHICH IS ALWAYS SET HIGH, you should go.

FIVE YEARS to pull his first 'A' is lenient enough, do you thinK?

If I give a teacher a class of my worst students, and tell him he has 4 years to get that class to respectability.... then because of the good work he does, I start boasting that I believe in him so much, that I believe that class will average a 1600 on the SATs...

I'm not going to freak out and fire him when that doesn't happen. Especially if that class performs very well on their TAKS scores.

TAKs doesn't mean anything for that students academic future, It's not the SAT, but it is a measure of performance that does quantify actual student performance.

 

[steelbtexan]

Jackie Sherrill did alright at A&M


Jorge Quiroga and Martin Torrijos were both heads of state for Bolivia and Panama.
Several Congressmen.
Several Mayors
Several CEO's of major companies
7 Medal of Honor winners.

No negative rep. but you should do some homework before spewing forth.

I was talking about sports and A&M.

They have many business leaders.

Forgot about Bear Bryant but you get my thought process.

 

[Thorn]

Texans suck.

No they don’t.

Kubiak sucks. He should be fired.

No, he’s improved the team a lot. He should stay.

We didn’t make the playoffs because of Kubiak.

No, we didn’t make the playoffs because of the Brown twins.

Evolution is false science and bad for your mind.

No! Raptor Jesus is just to cool!

Schaub hasn’t proven himself yet.

You’re right, that’s why he threw for more yards than anyone with no running game.

The sky is blue.

No it isn’t, it’s night you fool.

 

[ChampionTexan]

Texans suck.

No they don’t.

Kubiak sucks. He should be fired.

No, he’s improved the team a lot. He should stay.

We didn’t make the playoffs because of Kubiak.

No, we didn’t make the playoffs because of the Brown twins.

Evolution is false science and bad for your mind.

No! Raptor Jesus is just to cool!

Schaub hasn’t proven himself yet.

You’re right, that’s why he threw for more yards than anyone with no running game.

The sky is blue.

No it isn’t, it’s night you fool.

I'd Rep you if I could.

No I wouldn't

 

[Scooter]

repped thorn lol.

an interesting stat i found earlier is only 10 teams in the league have done no worse than 8-8 across the past 3 seasons. oddly enough, only 2 coaches in that group are on the hotseat and both are from texas ... one of which mans the youngest starting lineup in the NFL and the most recent franchise in the NFL.

weird.

 

[DexmanC]

repped thorn lol.

an interesting stat i found earlier is only 10 teams in the league have done no worse than 8-8 across the past 3 seasons. oddly enough, only 2 coaches in that group are on the hotseat and both are from texas ... one of which mans the youngest starting lineup in the NFL and the most recent franchise in the NFL.

weird.

How many of those 10 teams have NOT made postseason? How many
of those 2 coaches on the hotseat are ON the hotseat because they
have an owner DYING for a championship. How many of those coaches
are on the hotseat only as a public front, because their owner is looking
to have 62 choirboys and a boyscout troopleader as the top priority, and
winning is incidental.

....just a thought.

 

[DexmanC]

Ok, when reading my post, you've got to understand I'm not talking about the W-L record.

I'll restate it for you. If you don't think this team plays better than the team Kubiak took over, the one he took to 6-10, then I don't know why people bother arguing with you.


If I give a teacher a class of my worst students, and tell him he has 4 years to get that class to respectability.... then because of the good work he does, I start boasting that I believe in him so much, that I believe that class will average a 1600 on the SATs... (Superbowl)

I'm not going to freak out and fire him when that doesn't happen. Especially if that class performs very well on their TAKS scores.(Playoff appearance)

TAKs doesn't mean anything for that students academic future, It's not the SAT, but it is a measure of performance that does quantify actual student performance.

His students are still struggling on their pop quizzes. He's probably the
longest-tenured coach in the NFL without a single playoff appearance.
If he's around after year FIVE with the same results, why continue to spin
our wheels?

Have they played better than the 6-10 squad of 2006? YES!!! However,
RESULTS are based on how they fare against the REST OF THE LEAGUE.
What are we supposed to see, that places Kubiak on the same planet
of coaches as Tom Landry, Bill Belichick, or any other GREAT coach?
NOTHING he's done merits him being placed in that class, yet his staunchest
supporters continue to do it. Help me understand.

 

[JB]

His students are still struggling on their pop quizzes. He's probably the
longest-tenured coach in the NFL without a single playoff appearance.
If he's around after year FIVE with the same results, why continue to spin
our wheels?

Have they played better than the 6-10 squad of 2006? YES!!! However,
RESULTS are based on how they fare against the REST OF THE LEAGUE.
What are we supposed to see, that places Kubiak on the same planet
of coaches as Tom Landry, Bill Belichick, or any other GREAT coach?
NOTHING he's done merits him being placed in that class, yet his staunchest
supporters continue to do it. Help me understand.

I have not seen anyone compare Kubiak to GREAT coaches, other than pointing out similar records at the beginning of their careers. No one can make you understand what you refuse to see.

 

[Scooter]

How many of those 10 teams have NOT made postseason? How many
of those 2 coaches on the hotseat are ON the hotseat because they
have an owner DYING for a championship. How many of those coaches
are on the hotseat only as a public front, because their owner is looking
to have 62 choirboys and a boyscout troopleader as the top priority, and
winning is incidental.

....just a thought.

how many took over a 2-14 team, or even a 6-10 team? how many had to dump cap space their first 3 seasons? how many have replaced 40(ish ... i'm not looking that one up) players in that span? (49 of 53 in the four years) how many had to rebuild after their first rebuild (david carr, mike sherman, ahman green, samkon gado, mike flanagan, anthony weaver, etc) because of someone else? we grossly exceeded expectations. met expectations. and not even counting our mistakes were the colts and bengals rolling over from meeting this season's expectations.

the "other" coach on the hotseat took over for bill friggin parcells. obviously he's nowhere near the calibre of casserly and capers, but that should atleast count for something ... right?

"if that bastard leads us to the superbowl and it's not 70* and sunny i'll be pissed". what do you want? you want indy to play dead like they did for the 9-7 team they'll face tomorrow so we go no worse than 10-6? kris brown to ... not suck and we go no worse than 10-6? if you mention the division record again i'm gonna smack you lol (teasing). trading that one win for several other non divisional games would have us playing tomorrow.

we had a good season. we've come a long way. even being relatively unhealthy we made huge strides on both offense and defense. we achieved a milestone this city hasnt seen in nearly 2 decades and were robbed of potentially a whole lot more. see the forest.

 

[steelbtexan]

how many took over a 2-14 team, or even a 6-10 team? how many had to dump cap space their first 3 seasons? how many have replaced 40(ish ... i'm not looking that one up) players in that span? (49 of 53 in the four years) how many had to rebuild after their first rebuild (david carr, mike sherman, ahman green, samkon gado, mike flanagan, anthony weaver, etc) because of someone else? we grossly exceeded expectations. met expectations. and not even counting our mistakes were the colts and bengals rolling over from meeting this season's expectations.

the "other" coach on the hotseat took over for bill friggin parcells. obviously he's nowhere near the calibre of casserly and capers, but that should atleast count for something ... right?

"if that bastard leads us to the superbowl and it's not 70* and sunny i'll be pissed". what do you want? you want indy to play dead like they did for the 9-7 team they'll face tomorrow so we go no worse than 10-6? kris brown to ... not suck and we go no worse than 10-6? if you mention the division record again i'm gonna smack you lol (teasing). trading that one win for several other non divisional games would have us playing tomorrow.

we had a good season. we've come a long way. even being relatively unhealthy we made huge strides on both offense and defense. we achieved a milestone this city hasnt seen in nearly 2 decades and were robbed of potentially a whole lot more. see the forest.

My expectations are higher than yours. I expected the playoffs with the easy schedule they had this year.

Next years schedule is much harder. I expect about an 8-8,9-7 record next year because of it.

This was the year to make the playoffs and it didn't happen.

If the Texans dont go 10-6 (unlikely) what excuse would be good enough to make you say McNair should keep Kubes? Injuries,bad luck,another hurricane?

 

[Wolf]

I didn't read through all 7 pages and someone might have mentioned it already but right now my main concern is 1-5 within the division



if you can win against Manning and the high octane passing attack of theirs and you can win against the Titans and their play of hard nose defense and really good rushing attack and throw in the Jags philosophy .. I think this team will be ok when going against the rest of the league due to the differences in style within the division

win within the division and the playoffs will come

 

[thunderkyss]

His students are still struggling on their pop quizzes.

If anything, they are acing the pop quizzes, & struggling with the test.

He's probably the
longest-tenured coach in the NFL without a single playoff appearance.

If that is your only standard, you may never get a coach who will get it done. Yes, this years team should have got to the play-offs. No we did not. I understand you put that all on Kubiak. Understand that I don't.

If he's around after year FIVE with the same results, why continue to spin
our wheels?

Who said anything about him being here after 5 years?

Have they played better than the 6-10 squad of 2006? YES!!!

Finally, a direct answer. Let's try it again, why do you think they are playing better?

However,
RESULTS are based on how they fare against the REST OF THE LEAGUE.

You're not telling me anything I don't know.

If someone were to take the Detroit Lions, or the Oakland Raiders to a 10+ win season and the play offs in 2010, I'll admit I was wrong about everything.

But those two teams, and several others, shouldn't be concerned with play-offs. They need to be concerned with learning how to play football at the pro level. They need to be working on the fundamentals.

That's were we've been.

I agree with you, the Texans were good enough to get to the play-offs in 2009. They should have easily walked into a Wild-Card berth. They have no one to blame but themselves.

What are we supposed to see, that places Kubiak on the same planet
of coaches as Tom Landry, Bill Belichick, or any other GREAT coach?
NOTHING he's done merits him being placed in that class, yet his staunchest
supporters continue to do it. Help me understand.

We've said he's done a good job getting talent on this team. He's done a good job teaching this team to play.

No one I know put him on the same level as Belichick, or Landry.

From what we've seen, we do believe he can be very successful here for a long time. We want to give him one year to prove it.

 

[thunderkyss]

My expectations are higher than yours. I expected the playoffs with the easy schedule they had this year.

Next years schedule is much harder. I expect about an 8-8,9-7 record next year because of it.

This was the year to make the playoffs and it didn't happen.

If the Texans dont go 10-6 (unlikely) what excuse would be good enough to make you say McNair should keep Kubes? Injuries,bad luck,another hurricane?

Your standards are lower than mine. I want a team that will make the play-offs regardless how tough their schedule. If all you want is a team that will make it on the strength of a weak schedule you aren't asking for much.

Like Scooter said, you should be happy, because the 2009 team was that team. You were robbed by the Colts & Bengals rolling over.

However, because of what Kubiak & this team did in 2009, we will be a better team in 2010, just like we've gotten better every year since 2006 (& I'm not talking about the W-L columns).

We will win 10+ games for a long long time...... If we don't, something went terribly wrong.

If it's Kubiak, I'll be with you. If not, I won't.

 

[Scooter]

My expectations are higher than yours. I expected the playoffs with the easy schedule they had this year.

Next years schedule is much harder. I expect about an 8-8,9-7 record next year because of it.

This was the year to make the playoffs and it didn't happen.

If the Texans dont go 10-6 (unlikely) what excuse would be good enough to make you say McNair should keep Kubes? Injuries,bad luck,another hurricane?

kinda whiffed on the expectations part didnt you. "and not even counting our mistakes, we're the colts and bengals rolling over from meeting this season's expectations"

sorry, but that schedule stuff bugs the crap out of me. you nor anyone else has the foggiest idea about what next seasons' strength of schedule will be ... we could very well sweep the nfc east, split our division, and go 7-9.

i've made my fair share of excuses for both kubiak and the texans, but my posted support is based on how we've gotten from A to B and where i think C is because of our own body of work. not because of cushing and pollard being suprising superstars. not because of failure to win in our division. not because of schaub and andre leading the league in several areas. not because of our inability to win close games. disecting any is only a fraction of the texans ... when looking at the whole i think we hit this season dead on and were robbed by circumstance. looking at the whole, even if forced though tough injuries again, we're in position to win as many or more games next season.

 

[DexmanC]

how many took over a 2-14 team, or even a 6-10 team? how many had to dump cap space their first 3 seasons? how many have replaced 40(ish ... i'm not looking that one up) players in that span? (49 of 53 in the four years) how many had to rebuild after their first rebuild (david carr, mike sherman, ahman green, samkon gado, mike flanagan, anthony weaver, etc) because of someone else? we grossly exceeded expectations. met expectations. and not even counting our mistakes were the colts and bengals rolling over from meeting this season's expectations.

the "other" coach on the hotseat took over for bill friggin parcells. obviously he's nowhere near the calibre of casserly and capers, but that should atleast count for something ... right?

"if that bastard leads us to the superbowl and it's not 70* and sunny i'll be pissed". what do you want? you want indy to play dead like they did for the 9-7 team they'll face tomorrow so we go no worse than 10-6? kris brown to ... not suck and we go no worse than 10-6? if you mention the division record again i'm gonna smack you lol (teasing). trading that one win for several other non divisional games would have us playing tomorrow.

we had a good season. we've come a long way. even being relatively unhealthy we made huge strides on both offense and defense. we achieved a milestone this city hasnt seen in nearly 2 decades and were robbed of potentially a whole lot more. see the forest.

Well, scooter. You've done a better job than anyone else of explaining
your viewpoint. I see it clearly now, but strongly disagree. That's
what is great about America, right.

So in a nutshell:

2006-2009 = a four-year trial run. A four-year mulligan. A four-year training period.

2010 and beyond = The REAL Gary Kubiak tenure begins.

I understand, but I strongly disagree.

 

[DexmanC]

No one I know put him on the same level as Belichick, or Landry.

They are doing so, by association. When mentioning records of coaches,
which there has been hundreds of in NFL history, to compare Kubiak's record
to, they slip in a couple Hall-of-Famers and accomplished coaches to bolster
their support of Gary.

Why use Belichick and Landry as a point of reference when discussing the
stagnation Kubiak has had in his tenure? It's a subtle boost to Kubiak's
pedigree, which at this point, is completely unwarranted.

You know what I'm talking about, but there's the explanation.

 

[DexmanC]

kinda whiffed on the expectations part didnt you. "and not even counting our mistakes, were the colts and bengals rolling over from meeting this season's expectations"

sorry, but that schedule stuff bugs the crap out of me. you nor anyone else has the foggiest idea about what next seasons' strength of schedule will be ... we could very well sweep the nfc east, split our division, and go 7-9.

i've made my fair share of excuses for both kubiak and the texans, but my posted support is based on how we've gotten from A to B and where i think C is because of our own body of work. not because of cushing and pollard being suprising superstars. not because of failure to win in our division. not because of schaub and andre leading the league in several areas. not because of our inability to win close games. disecting any is only a fraction of the texans ... when looking at the whole i think we hit this season dead on and were robbed by circumstance. looking at the whole, even if forced though tough injuries again, we're in position to win as many or more games next season.

We've been stuck at point 'B' for 3 years now, and sometimes a coach can
only GET you to 'B.' If this season showed us anything as Texans fans, we
should have noticed that games between contending teams come down
to a matter of inches. ONE decision, playcall or personnel, can win or
lose you a game. The better this team becomes, the more of those
'moments' you will see. This season, we FAILED in almost EVERY
ONE of those such 'moments.'

Blaming Kris Brown after the Titans game for
subsequent losses can be placed squarely on the shoulders of the person
who DECIDED to play him, rather than cut him.

Blaming the Colts and Bengals for taking a couple weeks off is completely
off-base. THEY handled THEIR business. THEY won the games during
the MEAT OF THE SCHEDULE and had the OPTION to do whatever THEY
wanted. Why are we aiming for the 6th seed? That goal is so low, that
you're BOUND to miss it.

When you place any goal in life, you MUST overshoot it from the beginning.
In my own life, I wanted to learn to speak Spanish. I overshot the goal
by wanting to be fully literate, and able to speak it with the same proficiency
as English.

I became fully conversant in the language in SIX MONTHS, and fully literate
and proficient with an all-spanish dictionary in a year and a half! When
you overshoot your goals, miracles tend to happen at a much more rapid
rate.

It seems our mindset, as fans, has been set to "making the playoffs" as the
goal. Once we internalize the desire to go for a CHAMPIONSHIP, will progress
begin to occur at a rapid rate. Our "success" has been EXTREMELY slow,
and even the most-highest PollyAnnas can see that.

 

[Grams]

They are doing so, by association. When mentioning records of coaches,
which there has been hundreds of in NFL history, to compare Kubiak's record
to, they slip in a couple Hall-of-Famers and accomplished coaches to bolster
their support of Gary.

Why use Belichick and Landry as a point of reference when discussing the
stagnation Kubiak has had in his tenure? It's a subtle boost to Kubiak's
pedigree, which at this point, is completely unwarranted.

You know what I'm talking about, but there's the explanation.

They are using those example as how good coaches started off their careers.
They are not saying Kubiak is as good - just that he is starting off on a similiar pattern. Where he goes from here is up to him.

 

[thunderkyss]

Blaming the Colts and Bengals for taking a couple weeks off is completely
off-base. THEY handled THEIR business. THEY won the games during
the MEAT OF THE SCHEDULE and had the OPTION to do whatever THEY
wanted. Why are we aiming for the 6th seed? That goal is so low, that
you're BOUND to miss it.

You're mixing up two arguments. No one is blaming the Colts & Bengals. You're so far up Rex Ryans ass, thinking he is a great coach, but the fact is that his team wasn't a match for the Colts. They should have finished 8-8, actually regressing from their 9-7 finish of 2008.

But the argument now, is that our 9-7 should have got us to the play-offs. The Jets got lucky... & you think they are better coached.

The Bengals? I'm not sure The Jets wouldn't have beat them anyway.

 

[DexmanC]

You're mixing up two arguments. No one is blaming the Colts & Bengals. You're so far up Rex Ryans ass, thinking he is a great coach, but the fact is that his team wasn't a match for the Colts.

They should have finished 8-8, actually regressing from their 9-7 finish of 2008.

But the argument now, is that our 9-7 should have got us to the play-offs. The Jets got lucky... & you think they are better coached.

The Bengals? I'm not sure The Jets wouldn't have beat them anyway.

What kind of loser bullshit mentality is this? They BEAT the Texans, Colts AND Bengals.
Much like Brady was pulled when Mario clobbered him in the 4th Quarter, the Colts knew
the Jets would keep pounding at them for all 60 minutes. They'd already had home field
wrapped up, so why would they risk injuring a key player over a game that meant
NOTHING to them, partially due to sweeping the Texans.

Rex in his first game, DESTROYED Gary on the field in HIS OWN HOUSE, and
are now playing for the AFC Championship with the #1 defense and #1 running
game in the entire NFL. He took what he had, and made it work. He didn't make
excuses for taking over lunch meat, nor did he need an assistant head coach (Sherman)
to TEACH him how to coach.


THIS is what that line was responding to.

kinda whiffed on the expectations part didnt you. "and not even counting our mistakes, were the colts and bengals rolling over from meeting this season's expectations?"

Anything I say that may piss you
off is purely reactionary. Scroll back a bit, and educate yourself on what I'm
responding to. I never said Rex Ryan's a great coach, he's just better than
Kubiak at this point. Both are in the "average" category, but yes, I see
Ryan as better than Kubiak. Who's calling Gary a great coach, and why
does naming a coach who's better than he is deserve the label of "great?"

 

[thunderkyss]

..... with the #1 defense and #1 running
game in the entire NFL. He took what he had, and made it work.

Stats are for losers. 9-7 isn't any better than what got the last NYJets coach fired. Rex, is no better than Mangini.

 

[DexmanC]

Stats are for losers. 9-7 isn't any better than what got the last NYJets coach fired. Rex, is no better than Mangini.

It's WHO HE BEAT, to get to 9-7. Not all 9-7's are created equal due to the
TIEBREAKER EFFECT.

3 WINS vs.Texans, Colts, Bengals > 3 Wins vs. Rams, Raiders, and Seahawks

 

[Scooter]

It's WHO HE BEAT, to get to 9-7. Not all 9-7's are created equal due to the
TIEBREAKER EFFECT.

3 WINS vs.Texans, Colts, Bengals > 3 Wins vs. Rams, Raiders, and Seahawks

it's the rookie coach thing isnt it. if rex wins against indy you'll be able to fire off against the texans management the rest of this offseason and the world will be right.

WHO he beat is a joke in itsself when you cite indy and cincy. capitolize WHEN if you're attempting to be serious. you've been raising 10 types of hell about our division record for months. if WHO we beat was the jets to go 0-6 in the division and make the playoffs, is that all good by you?

just so i'm clear, which moving target do we need to hit next season to be considered a success?