Exactly.
Which is why we are where we are now. Owners don't like the Rooney Rule. Coaches don't like the Rooney Rule. Like Jerrah said, "We can do better."
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Brian Flores lawsuit, etc.
- Thread starter djohn2oo8
- Start date
Which is why we are where we are now. Owners don't like the Rooney Rule. Coaches don't like the Rooney Rule. Like Jerrah said, "We can do better."
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
February 3, 2022 |
Good morning. Most N.F.L. players are Black. Only one head coach is. |
|
‘Bigger than football’ |
Second and even third chances are not that unusual for N.F.L. head coaches. Over their careers, several coaches have run three different teams, and most of them had only mixed records of success before getting the third job. If they had excelled in one of the earlier two jobs, after all, they might have still had it. |
The list of coaches to have run at least three teams without having won a Super Bowl includes John Fox, Ted Marchibroda, Wade Phillips, Dan Reeves, Marty Schottenheimer and Norv Turner. |
Football fans might notice something about that list: All the coaches on it are white. No Black man has ever been the head coach of three N.F.L. teams. (Romeo Crennel is the closest, having been the coach of two teams and the interim coach of a third team, for part of a season.) |
But there are certainly Black coaches whose records resemble those of the white coaches who have had multiple coaching chances. Jim Caldwell, Marvin Lewis, Anthony Lynn, Lovie Smith and, in an earlier era, Dennis Green and Art Shell all won more games than they lost and took teams to the playoffs. They never got a third chance or, in some cases, a second chance to be a head coach. |
The Flores lawsuit |
Brian Flores seemed as if he might be following this path. Three years ago, he took over the Miami Dolphins, after the team had only one winning season in the previous 10. Under Flores, Miami had a winning record each of the past two years, coming close to the playoffs both times. Still, the Dolphins fired him last month, and no other team has hired him. |
On Tuesday, Flores sued the N.F.L. for racial discrimination. It was a remarkable act of defiance: Flores is only 40 years old, and he is probably hurting his chances of getting another job in the insular, conservative N.F.L. — which also happens to be arguably the country’s most popular form of entertainment. |
“It’s hard to speak out,” Flores said on CBS yesterday. “But,” he added, “this is bigger than football. This is bigger than coaching.” |
Robert Griffin III, a former quarterback, tweeted: “Brian Flores effectively had to end his chances at coaching in the N.F.L. to point out what we already know about discrimination in the hiring process for head coaches in the N.F.L.” |
The details of the lawsuit read like something out of a television drama. They include screenshots of an alleged text exchange last month in which Bill Belichick, the league’s most successful coach, mistakenly congratulated Flores on getting the job as the head coach of the New York Giants. (Belichick has not confirmed that the exchange happened.) |
Flores believes that Belichick meant to send the text to a different coach named Brian — Brian Daboll, who is white. Flores said that when he received the text, he was preparing for his own interview with the Giants. When he realized the text was not intended for him, he understood that Giants executives had already chosen somebody else. |
|
Why might the Giants have wanted to interview Flores after having decided to hire Daboll? The N.F.L. requires every team to interview at least one nonwhite candidate for any head coaching job. By conducting a pro forma interview with Flores, the Giants would have been technically following the rule. |
Lewis, the former coach of the Cincinnati Bengals, said yesterday that he once had a sham interview with the Carolina Panthers. Lewis said that they had already decided to hire Fox — one of the white coaches who would eventually run three different teams. |
Evidence of racism |
Finding ironclad proof of racial discrimination is rarely easy, especially in an individual case. And not every allegation of racism is accurate or fair. But the evidence that the N.F.L. has engaged in a pattern of discrimination against Black coaches is strong: |
|
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
In a utopian world that is how it should be…but as you know we live in anything but…so these types of things get put into place. Fact is the owners themselves could really spur this along themselves if they’d just been fair in their hiring practices in the 1st place.
vtech9
All Pro
Fair? I don't think that word means what you think it means. What's fair about forcing a company to hire someone they don't want to hire just for the sake of hitting some quota? Now if you had intended to use "equitable" instead, I might agree with you. When you force someone to do something they don't want to do, you are only fostering resentment. At that point, equity and fairness go out the window.
It's a lawsuit, not a war. And that is how the issue is being addressed. Don't know why people are so triggered over this?
Texian
Hall of Fame
80% does not equate to equity and fairness. If you are going to demand equity for HC and GMs aren't players deserving of the same demands?
Yeah not sure how this has become about turning into a race war
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
1st of all, they’re not forcing them to “hire” anyone….only interview them……in good faith…not as tokens to check a box or showing up drunk & not taking it serious b/c you already know what you want to do. I agree resentment is fostered, but usually only in those who feel/felt some type of way to begin with….I.e. racists. Why the hell else would you have resentment? B/c you have to spend 1 evening interviewing someone and you don’t want to do it? That’s petulant child reasoning. Using your rationale I guess any & everyone who owns a business and has to pay their employees foster resentment….especially owners of pro sports teams b/c we all know they don’t want to pay these guys the type of money they do..Furthetmore the owners of these NFL franchises are the absolute last dudes who deserve the benefit of the doubt when it comes to this considering their attempts to hide money from players in the most recent collective bargaining agreement…their denials of the existence of CTE and how they repeatedly jerk fans basically anyway they can.
They are making money hand over fist. The least they could do is attempt to take **** seriously.
The point is he didn't have to go in the interview to begin with once he knew Daboll was going to get the job. The Rooney rule is a racist rule. This outcome should have been expected.
You can't make ownership hire people they don't want to hire. Ask yourself if Ross got a do over would he hire Flores again. What's the chance he puts himself in this position again? Example: Looks like he's going to be hiring McDaniels.
Doesn't make it right, but it's the way it is.
If you're a lawyer for the plaintiff, it is evidence of a glass ceiling for upper management.
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
So, I will ask you the same question I asked Number19 who I don't think understood this completely. If you concede that 80%(or whatever the actual number is) of the players being black is based on merit and not equity, are you telling me that 1 black HC in the NFL is also based on merit?
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
No one’s triggered on this end, bud. Just throwing out opinions like everyone else.
You're the one calling it a war, pal.
robroy72
Rookie
In NFL history, have the best coaches been former NFL players? I'm not sure why the above stat is thrown out quite so much - the best coaches in many sports aren't always those who played pro.
vtech9
All Pro
If I was an owner, it wouldn't be a problem. I would announce that we have an open position, and will interview all interested qualified candidates, so please submit your application and references, and we will schedule a time to sit down and talk to you. That way, there is no need for a rule, and you only get candidates that are actually interested in the position. You don't have to worry about reaching out to someone you might be interested in, and having them turn you down.
He doesn't even have to be racist. An owner is going to hire who he wanted all along anyways.
The minute Schoen was hired the HC job was Dabolls.
Why? Because Daboll developed Allen. What QB has Flores helped develop? In fact I can make a case Flores hurt Tua's development more than he helped it.
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
If that were how the owners operated, there wouldn't be a need for any rule... But here we are...
vtech9
All Pro
so....do away with the Rooney Rule, and make it a rule that teams must have an open call, and must interview all qualified interested candidates. If you bring everyone in, you run a higher chance of finding the right guy vs the guy you think you want.
Cooper Kupp and his 4.65 forty says hi.
How do you set up this criteria?
Receivers and RB's have to run in the 4.4's you're going to miss out on Rice/Payton/Smith/Irvin etc...
Ol have to BP so many times?
Aren't there minority coaches that didn't in the NFL, also? Who is to say they can't be among the best? The lawsuit is suggesting whether there is equal opportunity for minorities as head coaches. It's a valid question that will be determined in court.
Pure speculation
Unfortunately it's going to be inevitable anyways.
Texian
Hall of Fame
A month ago, there was 3, was that based on merit? February 4, 2007 there were 2 black head coaches in Super Bowl XLI, was that based on merit? If there is only 1 black HC in the NFL, that is not merit but if there is 3 or more then it is merit? So, if white HCs (85% or more) are signing black players that consist of 80% of the NFL players, does qualify as systemic racism? Is this a plantation mentality? Is this still a plantation mentality when those black players are making more than a $1 million per season?
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
Lots of buzz words and no answer... I, for one, never used any of those terms, even though it's probably all there given we're talking about mostly old white billionaires. What I know for a fact to be a problem in the NFL is systemic nepotism. And in my opinion it needs to be dealt with.
Anquan Bolden is wondering why you forgot him and his 4.72.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
If they haven’t forced Dan Snyder to sell they aren’t going to force Stephen Ross to sell.
If tanking has been a thing in the NFL there are teams like Detroit and Jacksonville that have been really bad at it.
If tanking has been a thing in the NFL there are teams like Detroit and Jacksonville that have been really bad at it.
GanadoUHCoog
Waterboy
Only way to make the hiring practice fair: make every team interview 15+ candidates for each opening they have- then if there are no minorities interviewed at all then you know that something is up statistically in that individual case because the number of black players/coaches that have a high level of knowledge and coaching skill in the game would require interviewing at least 1 or 2. As far as hiring, can't force a company to hire someone they don't want to hire, nor would I incentive it with draft picks as they have done. The "racist" teams in the long run would not be as good as they would draw from a smaller coaching pool limiting themselves. I think a reasonable "color blind" incentive to these owners to "hire the best" would be to not equitably share TV $. Winners get more $, losers get less $ - of course that will never happen though.
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I also heard that in the 100+ years of the NFL's history, there have been less than 30 minority head coaches.
Players are subject to a true meritocracy to earn their jobs, but coaches are subject to an antiquated oligarchical system of billionaires that exploit taxpayers that are never held accountable to those same taxpayers.
Number19
Hall of Fame
As pointed out, players are tested in various ways. There is the combine; and various means of grading a players performance such as PFF. What tests are there for coaching positions? Should there be? And what types of tests?
The two are apples and oranges. Coaches can be, and likely are, hired for myriad reasons beyond just previous performance.
Number19
Hall of Fame
Do you? The flaws in the Rule were recognized when it was implemented. But the Rule was implemented because minorities were not getting interviews for the coaching positions. Giving minorities the opportunities to interview would allow them to better their interview skills, as well, of course, as increasing the possibilities more might be hired.
Number19
Hall of Fame
I think you are missing the point. The Rule was passed to give minorities the opportunity to interview for the coaching positions. Before the Rule, minorities were not being interviewed.
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
Good questions. I agree, grading coaches is much more subjective than players.
Texian
Hall of Fame
I'm not sure there is a right or acceptable answer here. When it comes to racism, affirmative action and other matters of race, I always defer to people who are much smarter than me. Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams and Shelby Steele are (3) of the smartest people on the subject matter. They have written close to 100 books and have done decades amounting to 10s of 1000s of hours in research across the globe. I doubt there is anyone more knowledgeable than these three brilliant minds:
Walter Williams: Suffer No Fools - Full Video - YouTube
Discrimination and Disparities with Thomas Sowell - YouTube
Shelby Steele On “How America's Past Sins Have Polarized Our Country” - YouTube
ghostlight
Veteran
I wonder what the statistics are based on race, income, and corporation season tickets for the attendance at games. There should be 10k seats set aside for section 8 at $10.00 per ticket including 1 beer and 1 hotdog. The real problem is folks living on government subsidized income can't afford to go to a game. just a thought while we are talking stats
Texian
Hall of Fame
And yet a month ago, Stephen Ross had a black GM and HC and today he's a racist. It didn't take long for the media to go beserk and for the crazies to seek the racist mantle when there became only one. Only thing I am sure of is media will overreact and jump to conclusions like they always do.
You did see that I said 5.5 right?
Do you think Cooper Kupp was drafted over someone more qualified?
Better yet, tell me what you think I said. Maybe your reply will make sense.
Devil's advocate. How many people did the Giants interview? Did they honestly consider hiring all of them? Were they all minorities?
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
This is closer to an ideal situation, but what if everyone on this board applies for an NFL opening? Do they have to interview all of us? Now we're talking about maybe licensing coaches, some sort of coach school, classes, etc.
Has the Dolphins been called racist? I seem to have missed that.
The Giants are being called racist.
The Dolphins are just dirty bastids
I didn't think you literally meant 5.5
Being qualified doesn't matter.
Do you put a cap on qualified applicants at 10? 100? 1,000?
Is there a law that says there has to be equal opportunity, or do the owners who invested their money in their business get to hire who they think is the best person for their org? I know I would never hire Flores, notice how none of the Dolphins players are coming out in support of Flores? There's a reason for this.
vtech9
All Pro
No, I'm not missing the point. I'm saying it isn't really working as intended. By giving minorities the opportunity to interview, it was believed it would mean more minorities would be hired. It hasn't really worked out that way. Instead of punishing teams for not interviewing 2 minorities, a better way would be to incentivize the interviewing of more minorities. By incentivizing it, instead of punishing, more teams would willingly interview more minorities, and in turn, more minorities would be hired if they were qualified. As it stands now, you are only getting 2 minorities being interviewed by teams, and most of them are only token interviews to fulfil the letter of the rule. It's counterproductive.
vtech9
All Pro
I think you missed the "qualified" part. It is up to the team to determine who is qualified. I still don't think any rule is the way to go though. I think incentivizing the process would be a better option.
Something like this...give a team an extra supplemental 7th round pick for each minority that is interviewed. If the team interviews 2 minorities, that 7th is bumped to a 6th. If a team interviews 4 minorities, that 6th is upgraded to a 5th, and so on... Additionally, if a minority is hired as the HC, the team is given a supplemental 3rd round pick.
edit for clarity...each team can only get one supplemental pick from interviewing minorities, with an upgrade max of 3rd round (it would take 16 minority interviews). The supplemental pick for hiring a minority HC would be in addition to the supplemental pick received for interviewing. So, 2 total supplemental picks possible.
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vtech9
All Pro
No...If you do it this way, the team can interview as many as they want to interview. If they want to spend the time to interview that many potential candidates, have at it.
Number19
Hall of Fame
It may have been hoped that hiring would follow the interviews, but did anyone, among the 32 owners, believe it. The intent was to placate social pressure with a minor advancement. And I disagree with you. It worked sucessfully. But sucess is never enough for some people, they always want more. At its core, this is not a football issue. It's political.
