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bah007 Texans Mock

infantrycak said:
16 drops a year in the NFL would be horrific. TO maybe comes closest to your rationalization and he wasn't near that bad. A lot of times when you go long it's because you have to go long. An otherwise perfectly executed long gain critical play ending in a drop is crushing to a team far beyond the one play on the stat sheet.
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The game is changing. If you have a WR with 2000 receiving yds and 20+ TD's, I think you may have to overlook 16 drops. All I'm saying is that for a draft prospect, you have to evaluate the whole package. Dropped balls are certainly a negative.
 
Number19 said:
The game is changing. If you have a WR with 2000 receiving yds and 20+ TD's, I think you may have to overlook 16 drops. All I'm saying is that for a draft prospect, you have to evaluate the whole package. Dropped balls are certainly a negative.
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Well no kidding. Any idea where we can find that guy?

The reason the drop issue keeps following Fuller is because he has so many more than the next worst guy in that category.
 
bah007 said:
Well no kidding. Any idea where we can find that guy?

The reason the drop issue keeps following Fuller is because he has so many more than the next worst guy in that category.
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For a long time 2000 yds was only a dream for RB's. The game changed and 2000 yds became an achievable goal. The game is currently changing again to favor QB's and Receivers.

Just to be clear, I'm not higher on Fuller because of his drops. I'm just BS'ing - sneaking in a few posts while at work, waiting for tonight.
 
Number19 said:
For a long time 2000 yds was only a dream for RB's. The game changed and 2000 yds became an achievable goal. The game is currently changing again to favor QB's and Receivers.

Just to be clear, I'm not higher on Fuller because of his drops. I'm just BS'ing - sneaking in a few posts while at work, waiting for tonight.
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I do understand your argument in risk vs reward, and why drops shouldn't immediately take a guy off your board. You have to take the entire package into account.

I was just pointing out that the drop risk with Fuller is way, way higher than it is with other similar players. And that's why it keeps getting brought up.
 
bah007 said:
I do understand your argument in risk vs reward, and why drops shouldn't immediately take a guy off your board. You have to take the entire package into account.

I was just pointing out that the drop risk with Fuller is way, way higher than it is with other similar players. And that's why it keeps getting brought up.
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How much different is Kolby Listenbee than Fuller ?
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
How much different is Kolby Listenbee than Fuller ?
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Athletically they are actually pretty identical. I have two issues with Listenbee that I don't have with Fuller. Production is one. I can't deny that Fuller put the numbers up. The second is route running. Neither really ran a variety of routes. But the times that they did Fuller looked like a receiver that just needed more practice. Listenbee looked like a track guy in pads. His athleticism is very straight-line.
 
bah007 said:
Athletically they are actually pretty identical. I have two issues with Listenbee that I don't have with Fuller. Production is one. I can't deny that Fuller put the numbers up. The second is route running. Neither really ran a variety of routes. But the times that they did Fuller looked like a receiver that just needed more practice. Listenbee looked like a track guy in pads. His athleticism is very straight-line.
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I'm not sure you draft just a speed guy in the first if you can get one later . I'm thinking Ginn , Paterson , and 5 guys the Raiders picked just on being fast .
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
I'm not sure you draft just a speed guy in the first if you can get one later . I'm thinking Ginn , Paterson , and 5 guys the Raiders picked just on being fast .
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Preaching to the choir.

I can get speed just about anywhere in the draft if that's all I care about. Give me a guy that runs a little bit slower but can high point the ball, jump out of the gym, cut on a dime, and never drop a pass.
 
bah007 said:
I'm meh on North. He ran the 40 0.05 faster than Moore at the combine and Moore outperformed him in every other test. He also has numerous issues off the field and his best season production-wise would have been Moore's fourth-best. Just don't see any reason to take North over Moore.

I don't see any way Braverman is still available at this point in the draft. I would definitely have taken him over Moore if I did.
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I thought North had a great Frosh yr and then got hurt. I didn't know he had off the field issues. Do these make him not Texans worthy?

North did run a 4.42 had a better shuttle about the same 20 yd and did 17 lifts to Moore's 10. North is 6'2 223 Lbs and Moore is 6'1 206.

The things Moore beats North in is the vert 37 in. to 35 in. and the 3 cone 6.76 to North's 6.90. I also rate North higher due to the fact he hadn't played in 2 yrs.

In short North is bigger/faster/stronger and can jump almost as high. I like North alot but wonder about his football IQ. The most recent Vols WR's have busted for different reasons. Hunter/Rodgers were studs in college and failed. That's why I wouldn't spend more than a low rd pick on him. But the god given ability is there.

Totally agree with you about Braverman. What rd do you see Braverman going in? I could see late 4th early 5th by a team like the Pats or the Bears.
 
bah007 said:
9 3/8.

My comparison was only meant to show that Fuller-lite could be had at a much better bargain later in the draft. I didn't mean this to turn into a Will Fuller thread. But by making the comparison in the first place I should have foreseen this happening.
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That's what I thought. That's why I couldn't figure out why that other guy was waxing on about tiny 8 1/4" hands. Didn't want to call him out... probably wouldn't have mattered either way.
 
Mr teX said:
Off the top of my head: Megatron, Julio Jones, Randy Moss........probably our very own AJ...

honorable mention probably Desean jackson, Deion Sanders (lol), santana moss.....joey galloway...
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Cloeman/Fuller kind remind me of Santana Moss. A 10 yr starter would be a great pick. (Even if they are somewhat limited in their route running early in their careers.)
 
bah007 said:
Preaching to the choir.

I can get speed just about anywhere in the draft if that's all I care about. Give me a guy that runs a little bit slower but can high point the ball, jump out of the gym, cut on a dime, and never drop a pass.
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bah007 said:
Preaching to the choir.

I can get speed just about anywhere in the draft if that's all I care about. Give me a guy that runs a little bit slower but can high point the ball, jump out of the gym, cut on a dime, and never drop a pass.
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Coleman is intriguing because he has explosion and he had some gaudy numbers but doesn't have the route experience . I like Shepard and Miller before Fuller . I think Kelly then Shepard would be fine with me
 
steelbtexan said:
I thought North had a great Frosh yr and then got hurt. I didn't know he had off the field issues. Do these make him not Texans worthy?

North did run a 4.42 had a better shuttle about the same 20 yd and did 17 lifts to Moore's 10. North is 6'2 223 Lbs and Moore is 6'1 206.

The things Moore beats North in is the vert 37 in. to 35 in. and the 3 cone 6.76 to North's 6.90. I also rate North higher due to the fact he hadn't played in 2 yrs.

In short North is bigger/faster/stronger and can jump almost as high. I like North alot but wonder about his football IQ. The most recent Vols WR's have busted for different reasons. Hunter/Rodgers were studs in college and failed. That's why I wouldn't spend more than a low rd pick on him. But the god given ability is there.

Totally agree with you about Braverman. What rd do you see Braverman going in? I could see late 4th early 5th by a team like the Pats or the Bears.
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Stop with the Texans worthy when you and I talk about prospects. You and I have talked football for a long time and you know that isn't a thing for me and never has been. But the ability to stay on the field is. I don't care if it's injuries, stupidity, or whatever. If you can't stay on the field for me then you aren't worthy.

Moore also performed 7 inches better in the broad jump, which is the most useful test for determining lower body explosion. I have North's 40 at 4.48 and Moore's at 4.53.

North is bigger and has a stronger upper body. But quickness is pretty even with a slight edge to Moore and he also has a stronger lower body. So call strength even. And North is faster by 0.05.

And North's great freshman year was only 38/496/1. He did play some over the last two years. I can understand why you thought he hadn't played the last two years though because in 13 combined games he only went for 36/378/4.

Respect your opinions but I just don't see it here.

I see Braverman going in the 4th. Could slip into the 5th because of his size but I still don't think he makes it to us there.
 
bah007 said:
I do understand your argument in risk vs reward, and why drops shouldn't immediately take a guy off your board. You have to take the entire package into account.

I was just pointing out that the drop risk with Fuller is way, way higher than it is with other similar players. And that's why it keeps getting brought up.
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What's his big play risk? Not to argue with you, but to go a little further on the "entire package" thing you were saying. T.O. dropped a lot of balls, but he made a lot of plays. He made a heck of a lot more plays than drops & that's why I think he should have gone into the HOF before Marvin.

If I thought this guy (Fuller) was a one trick 9 route pony I wouldn't even think about him in the first round. But this kid has good size & knows what to do with the ball in his hands. He'll turn a 5 yard slant into an 80 yard TD... well, he could. Guys like that don't always pan out... Corderelle Patterson, Percy Harvin & they're more of a luxury pick than anything. Then your coach has to be committed to getting him involved in the receiving game. Kinda like pounding the rock for 3 yards & a cloud of dust. stick with it & know that it's going to pay off.

Anyway...
 
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bah007 said:
Stop with the Texans worthy when you and I talk about prospects. You and I have talked football for a long time and you know that isn't a thing for me and never has been. But the ability to stay on the field is. I don't care if it's injuries, stupidity, or whatever. If you can't stay on the field for me then you aren't worthy.

Moore also performed 7 inches better in the broad jump, which is the most useful test for determining lower body explosion. I have North's 40 at 4.48 and Moore's at 4.53.

North is bigger and has a stronger upper body. But quickness is pretty even with a slight edge to Moore and he also has a stronger lower body. So call strength even. And North is faster by 0.05.

And North's great freshman year was only 38/496/1. He did play some over the last two years. I can understand why you thought he hadn't played the last two years though because in 13 combined games he only went for 36/378/4.

Respect your opinions but I just don't see it here.

I see Braverman going in the 4th. Could slip into the 5th because of his size but I still don't think he makes it to us there.
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I didn't mean Texans worthy in a bad way, I'm asking what off field issues did he have and will they keep him off of the field. I'm not vouching for North but I think he's got enough ability to be worth a late rd pick.
 
thunderkyss said:
What's his big play risk? Not to argue with you, but to go a little further on the "entire package" thing you were saying. T.O. dropped a lot of balls, but he made a lot of plays. He made a heck of a lot more plays than drops & that's why I think he should have gone into the HOF before Marvin.

If I thought this guy was a one trick 9 route pony (Fuller) I wouldn't even think about him in the first round. But this kid has good size & knows what to do with the ball in his hands. He'll turn a 5 yard slant into an 80 yard TD... well, he could. Guys like that don't always pan out... Corderelle Patterson, Percy Harvin & they're more of a luxury pick than anything. Then your coach has to be committed to getting him involved in the receiving game. Kinda like pounding the rock for 3 yards & a cloud of dust. stick with it & know that it's going to pay off.

Anyway...
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The risk is that I do think he is a one trick 9 route pony for now. I think he has the ability to develop into more than that but for now that's what I see. In the NFL everybody is fast and those 9 routes aren't always going to be there. So he either needs to catch them when they are there or he needs to get more versatile so that he can get open in other ways. I have never said that he is not capable of doing that, only that he has not done it yet. That is why I grade him in the 2nd round and not the 1st. Obviously, a 2nd round grade is pretty high. I think pretty highly of the kid. But the insane number of drops mixed with the lack of developed route running skills give me pause about a 1st round selection.

He will never be like TO. Their games are so different that I can't even begin a comparison. Yes, TO did drop passes. But you could live with it because he gave you so much else. That's the argument. I'm not saying that Fuller can't be a guy that makes you okay with the drops. All I'm saying is that the drops give people pause and they should.
 
More often than not when teams draft speed they get a track star instead of a football player. Like when teams draft girth more often than not they get a fat guy instead of a football player.
 
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bah007 said:
The risk is that I do think he is a one trick 9 route pony for now. I think he has the ability to develop into more than that but for now that's what I see. In the NFL everybody is fast and those 9 routes aren't always going to be there. So he either needs to catch them when they are there or he needs to get more versatile so that he can get open in other ways. I have never said that he is not capable of doing that, only that he has not done it yet. That is why I grade him in the 2nd round and not the 1st. Obviously, a 2nd round grade is pretty high. I think pretty highly of the kid. But the insane number of drops mixed with the lack of developed route running skills give me pause about a 1st round selection.

He will never be like TO. Their games are so different that I can't even begin a comparison. Yes, TO did drop passes. But you could live with it because he gave you so much else. That's the argument. I'm not saying that Fuller can't be a guy that makes you okay with the drops. All I'm saying is that the drops give people pause and they should.
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Again, I wasn't trying to challenge your analysis (he's not on my board at all) I was just trying to add another dimension to the conversation (pretty poorly it seems), Fuller was just an example.
 
thunderkyss said:
Again, I wasn't trying to challenge your analysis (he's not on my board at all) I was just trying to add another dimension to the conversation (pretty poorly it seems), Fuller was just an example.
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I'm always fine with providing further explanation for my positions. No harm done.

I was just trying to expound on what you were asking me to. Sometimes I do get a little wordy with my responses.
 
steelbtexan said:
I didn't mean Texans worthy in a bad way, I'm asking what off field issues did he have and will they keep him off of the field. I'm not vouching for North but I think he's got enough ability to be worth a late rd pick.
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I just went back to look it up and I'm forced to admit that I was apparently talking out of my ass. I could have sworn that he was one of the guys caught up in the Curt Maggitt fiasco but it wasn't him. So he appears to be clean off the field. That actually makes me feel a little better about him.

But the shoulder, knee, and back injuries that have kept him off the field still linger and give me pause.

And to touch on our discussion earlier, I'm not against drafting North. I'm just against drafting North if Moore is still available.
 
bah007 said:
Preaching to the choir.

I can get speed just about anywhere in the draft if that's all I care about. Give me a guy that runs a little bit slower but can high point the ball, jump out of the gym, cut on a dime, and never drop a pass.
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Yep you want to open things up? Put doctson on one side and Hopkins on the other in the red zone.
 
Shishkabob said:
Is it to much to ask for a fat track star?
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0803_WorldOlympics_ShotPut.jpg
 
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