Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍
All encompassing Rick Smith thread
- Thread starter djohn2oo8
- Start date
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I didn't really even take it as abrasive.......just you also making your point.
RagingBull
Hall of Shame
In retrospect, Derek Carr was probably worth #1 overall. I would take him over Clowney with the hindsight of their two careers. Never would have happened with the history of his brother though.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Probably more correctly, wouldn't have happened with the history of his father.
If I am reading the last couple of pages correctly, the Texans w(c)ould not mess with a QB because of the messy divorce with another sibling which involved the whole family...A few years later, the team has to pay extra to dump another QB in an if anything messier divorce, after they paid for an expensive wedding and honeymoon for this QB that they really did n't know...Leaving out the 8 or 10 QBs that they dated over the pass few years also.
Soap Opera city...man
You're spot on in your assessment.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Lombardi has always been one of the most reliable sources in the NFL.:
***************************************************
April 5 The Ringer NFL Show
Tom Savage
Mike Lombardi on The Ringer NFL podcast: Now, they [the coaches] like Tom Savage, they have liked Tom Savage ever since theyve had him. They liked him all last summer, they liked him more last summer than they did Brock Osweiler. In fact, if it was an open competition last summer, Savage would have won the job. Thats the missing link here. They like Savage, theyre prepared to play with Savage.
Mays: They like Tom Savage, but they didnt like Tom Savage enough not to go out and sign Brock Osweiler.
Lombardi: Wait, I think you've got to correct that. If we go back and really analyze the Brock Osweiler signing, I think Rick Smith went ahead, acted on his own as the general manager and went ahead and signed him. Billy O'Brien never met Brock Osweiler I think because of Rick Smith and his relationship with the Broncos, he knew Denver was trying to resign him... he was involved there. I think there was love in the building... Godsey and O'Brien... there was love for Savage.
When they got Osweiler they were like, "Really? We paid him $16 million?" I talked to the coaches there and there wasnt a lot of love [for Osweiler]. My sense of it is, yes youre right, you can make that statement. But I think the general manager made this [move] more than the coaching staff in a unified decision.
**********************************************
It was Smith screwing the pooch at its best.
***************************************************
April 5 The Ringer NFL Show
Tom Savage
Mike Lombardi on The Ringer NFL podcast: Now, they [the coaches] like Tom Savage, they have liked Tom Savage ever since theyve had him. They liked him all last summer, they liked him more last summer than they did Brock Osweiler. In fact, if it was an open competition last summer, Savage would have won the job. Thats the missing link here. They like Savage, theyre prepared to play with Savage.
Mays: They like Tom Savage, but they didnt like Tom Savage enough not to go out and sign Brock Osweiler.
Lombardi: Wait, I think you've got to correct that. If we go back and really analyze the Brock Osweiler signing, I think Rick Smith went ahead, acted on his own as the general manager and went ahead and signed him. Billy O'Brien never met Brock Osweiler I think because of Rick Smith and his relationship with the Broncos, he knew Denver was trying to resign him... he was involved there. I think there was love in the building... Godsey and O'Brien... there was love for Savage.
When they got Osweiler they were like, "Really? We paid him $16 million?" I talked to the coaches there and there wasnt a lot of love [for Osweiler]. My sense of it is, yes youre right, you can make that statement. But I think the general manager made this [move] more than the coaching staff in a unified decision.
**********************************************
It was Smith screwing the pooch at its best.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Let's watch the draft and we will see how much they love Savage.
Sigma
Veteran
do you think drafting a qb high could be a sign of them not really liking savage?
EDIT:
trading Savage to move up in the first round would be a sign now that I think about it
Number19
Hall of Fame
I've been saying all along that I think OB is fine with going into the season with Savage and Weeden. They need to draft a third QB, but using a high pick on one will be Smith's decision in consultation with McNair. OB will have some input, but the draft decisions will be Smith's.
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
Well that explains a lot. The godfather hasn't bothered to draft a QB early because he didn't want the current QB on his roster to think he wasn't loved.
Sounds like a good plan, worked wonders so far.
This makes a lot of sense in retrospect. There's a lot of smoke regarding the relationship between BOB and Smith. Given the flame out of Hoyer against KC and Smith's connections with Denver I could see Smith being the catalyst behind the BO move.
I don't believe for one second that Rick "acted on his own" in this situation. I think BOB and McNair both signed off on him going after Brock based on what they saw of him on film and scouting reports. So what if BOB never met Brock. He wasn't allowed to since Brock was a FA. No, this mistake was made by the three of them and sometimes that's what happens when your team desperately needs a QB. They tried something and it didn't work. It's time to move on! They have to keep firing away until they hit on a franchise QB! It's the name of the game right now in the NFL.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
do you think drafting a qb high could be a sign of them not really liking savage?
EDIT:
trading Savage to move up in the first round would be a sign now that I think about it
I don't believe OB is in love with Savage or he wouldn't have been an afterthought in the Hoyer Mallett battle.
Sigma
Veteran
I was curious what you thought could be an indication, everybody seems dead certain that ob is in love with savage and that either we won't draft a qb untill late or if we draft one early he will not compete with savage
honestly I don't think us drafting a qb eary is enough to say that ob doesn't trust savage, but at the same time savage has done nothing to deserve the starting job without competition (at least in my eyes)
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
During the 2014 Hoyer Mallet battle, by O'Brien's own words, Savage in his rookie year would not have been considered as a starter, as O'Brien's philosphy is that he does not feel a rookie QB is prepared to be a starter in the NFL. In 2015, Savage's season was over after his A-C separation. After the big bucks Os acquisition in 2016......well, that speaks for itself. Not having "love" for Savage could in no way be deduced under these circumstances.
The owner put Rick Smith to task to finding a franchise QB. It appears that Rick Smith locked on Brock O as the best choice that the Texans could control getting. My speculation is that they got enough buy-in from O'Brien even with his liking of Savage. Here are words of the owner at the 2016 playoff loss to the Chiefs
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/texans-owner-on-no-1-offseason-priority-finding-a-franchise-qb/
Last edited:
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Hoyer v. Mallett was 2015 and Savage was not a rookie. Otherwise great theory.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
Well, if there's any accuracy/truth to Lombardi's take, not necessarily, although it depends who "they" is. Again, if Lombardi's take is on point, the draft will tell us how much Rick and the McNair's buy into O'Brien's love of Savage (which apparently wasn't much at all last off-season).
There's not much doubt in my mind that the Texans will draft a QB in the top two rounds. Unless they trade up in the first round to do it, they won't (or at least shouldn't) feel compelled to hand the starting job to that draft pick on day one. Unless that pick starts off incredibly hot (ala Dak Prescott last season), I don't see a realistic chance they force him to be the opening day starter.
What to me is a bit more of an unknown - and a little bit more interesting - is whether they end up bringing in a veteran - Cutler, Kaepernick, or maybe even a Shaun Hill or (shudder) Fitzmagic. That will tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that either the Tom Savage love doesn't run that deep, or OB and Rick Smith hate each other (or both!).
bah007
Hall of Fame
LOL I love that quote from McNair.
These guys don't want to waste draft picks trying to acquire QBs but they have no issue wasting draft picks getting rid of them. Geniuses on Kirby..
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
After all these years the David Carr bust is still dictating draft strategy. They are completely terrified of blowing it again.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I don't know that I can agree with that interpretation. McNair made it a public mandate that we WERE going out to find a franchise QB, by hook or by crook. After the Hoyer debacle, unless they made a big splash, I have no doubt that McNair was afraid of losing the fan base.......and lots of money. They made a big splash alright..........belly flops usually do those things............
frethack
Rookie
To add on top of these posts, Savage did not look good in his rookie appearance against the Colts and was injured as well. During the 2015 Hoyer-Mallett battle, there was little chance that a 2nd year player with very few reps, who bounced from team to team in college, was going to be able to compete with vets that had been in the system 3+ years. My opinion is that Ob wanted Savage to sit and marinate in the QB room for a while. Im not condoning this method, but it is what I think happened.
If Ob did not have at least *some* love for Savage he would be out of Houston like every other QB on the roster...besides Weeden.
Fitzpatrick was the starter in 2014. Hoyer didn't arrive until 2015. There was no Mallett/Hoyer 'battle' in 2014.
And as you said, Savage was written off during the 2015 season.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
FuzzyLogic
Mathematically Possible
Yeah it is pretty clear - he is the GM, I would think that is his job. I believe what most argue against is that he makes his picks with absolutely no input from scouts, coaches, OB. And some seem to think he makes the picks to spite those same people.
GM gets players, coaches coach them - doesn't seem unusual. When I see OB say, "I said I wanted x player" or "I said I want a player with these attributes" and "Ricky told me to **** off, you'll get what I give you" then we have a story.
GM gets players, coaches coach them - doesn't seem unusual. When I see OB say, "I said I wanted x player" or "I said I want a player with these attributes" and "Ricky told me to **** off, you'll get what I give you" then we have a story.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
When the head coach makes repeated remarks in which he words things in this way, it's apparent that his input isn't significant. Maybe he tells Rick the type of player he wants and participates in a very limited capacity in scouting the guys, but he's clearly not very involved with it or he wouldn't word it this way. He'd say "we try to draft players" this way, not "we coach whatever players Rick gives us."
It will not get any clearer. If you are waiting for what you said you are waiting on, you're never going to see the situation clearly. OB is smart too, he knows how these comments are going to look when people read over them, so I do think he is sending a message to people outside of the FO.
It's also not unusual, but listening to people here, they make it sound like this is a joint, closer to 50/50 process. It's not. Rick basically dominates this process with little input from his HC. I'd bet that the input from Cal and Bob is more significant than that of BoB. Again, it won't get any clearer.
It will not get any clearer. If you are waiting for what you said you are waiting on, you're never going to see the situation clearly. OB is smart too, he knows how these comments are going to look when people read over them, so I do think he is sending a message to people outside of the FO.
It's also not unusual, but listening to people here, they make it sound like this is a joint, closer to 50/50 process. It's not. Rick basically dominates this process with little input from his HC. I'd bet that the input from Cal and Bob is more significant than that of BoB. Again, it won't get any clearer.
texanhead08
All Pro
I don't have a ton of faith in Rick when it comes to drafting especially at the QB/RB positions, but I have even less faith in Cal and Bob.
FuzzyLogic
Mathematically Possible
I'm still confused on what you think I'm waiting on to get clearer... I basically agreed with you. Rick is the GM - he gets the players and OB is the coach he coaches them. Meh.
Whatever amount of input any of them have I don't know - for each one of the comments that say it's Rick with no input there are just as many quotes that say it is a collaborative effort.
And the funniest part is - no matter which camp you believe, it's "Boardroom style will never work you need a strong GM a "football" guy in charge - fire Rick!" OR "Rick is picking the players with no input from the coach" (being that strong GM) "fire Rick!".
Now look - I don't care about Rick Smith, I don't like to see anyone lose a job it's not in my nature to wish bad things on people, but if HE is the problem fire him. But I'm not letting Mr. O'Brien off the hook either... so you were saddled with an epically crappy QB - OK coach you can either A) get creative and find a way to move the ball on offence OR B) run the same damn four plays repeatedly until it works! I think we all know which the Texas offensive genius picked last year.
At the moment the Texans are a disorganized mess - this all falls on the McNairs they are in charge, so ultimately picking the GM/Coach/Head Janitor is their problem. If Rick isn't doing his job then fire him and get someone else, and hopefully learn to not mix business with "family". If Rick is doing his job and OB is having a fit because he lacks power, then find a flippin head coach that understands and accepts his role. But again ultimately all on the McNairs it's their show.
Whatever amount of input any of them have I don't know - for each one of the comments that say it's Rick with no input there are just as many quotes that say it is a collaborative effort.
And the funniest part is - no matter which camp you believe, it's "Boardroom style will never work you need a strong GM a "football" guy in charge - fire Rick!" OR "Rick is picking the players with no input from the coach" (being that strong GM) "fire Rick!".
Now look - I don't care about Rick Smith, I don't like to see anyone lose a job it's not in my nature to wish bad things on people, but if HE is the problem fire him. But I'm not letting Mr. O'Brien off the hook either... so you were saddled with an epically crappy QB - OK coach you can either A) get creative and find a way to move the ball on offence OR B) run the same damn four plays repeatedly until it works! I think we all know which the Texas offensive genius picked last year.
At the moment the Texans are a disorganized mess - this all falls on the McNairs they are in charge, so ultimately picking the GM/Coach/Head Janitor is their problem. If Rick isn't doing his job then fire him and get someone else, and hopefully learn to not mix business with "family". If Rick is doing his job and OB is having a fit because he lacks power, then find a flippin head coach that understands and accepts his role. But again ultimately all on the McNairs it's their show.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
That's what you're waiting on. The story is already there. Most people think that the effort is more collaborative than I think the evidence shows.
This is the truth and this comes directly from the McNair's
Yep, These guys are geniuses.
Would you be willing to give up Fuller/this yrs 1st and next yrs 1st for Wentz right about now? Goff? I would. Ricky wont because these decisions are franchise altering decisions that get people fired.
To get Mahomes I would trade up to whatever a 1st and a 3rd this yr and a 2018 1st. What I would rather Ricky do is wait until Rd.5 and draft Kelly. Use the rest of the draft to fill in the holes on the OL/DB's and see if Kelly is the future next yr. If he isn't you can draft another QB in the 2018 QB rich draft.
Darnold/Rosen/Stidham/Josh Allen/Kyle Allen/Mason Rudolph are all guys I like more than every QB in this draft other than Mahomes.
Last edited:
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
On Hard Knocks, they were split between James and the other bigger corner. Smith seemed to be in James corner while OB was in favor of the bigger corner. Who got cut? That was a example of how they operate. Imo
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
You're talking about late preseason, after acquisition decisions have been made. I'd hope the HC has the say there, or what the hell are we even doing?
I don't think Rick is sabotaging BoB,
And I don't think he's maliciously hurting the team. I do think he has control over acquisitions, for the most part, and is simply not good at it.
frethack
Rookie
Cant find the clip, but I think this scenario was opposite. Rick Smith wanted the longer corner and OB wanted James
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk
Right, but next year you will like the 2019 class better than the 2018 class. And so on.
That's not specifically you, just draft gurus in general. The grass is always greener next year. At some point, you have to throw your line in the pond to catch a fish.
Kyle Allen? Mason Rudolph? Really?
I get what you're saying and generally agree. But in the last 3 drafts I really liked the 2014 class and was wrong on Bortles/Manziel, right on Jimmmy G/Carr who I didn't want the Texans to draft, due to my dislike of Roger Carr.
Wrong on Mettenberger and McCarron is probably going to be good. So it's a crap shoot but some classes are better than others and next yrs class the odds are better.
I get what you're saying and generally agree. But in the last 3 drafts I really liked the 2014 class and was wrong on Bortles/Manziel, right on Jimmmy G/Carr who I didn't want the Texans to draft, due to my dislike of Roger Carr.
Wrong on Mettenberger and McCarron is probably going to be good. So it's a crap shoot but some classes are better than others and next yrs class the odds are better. I liked Goff a lot and admittedly didn't know much about Wentz. Although I did like what I saw of him at the Sr Bowl
I really like Rudolph a lot. He is a lot like McCarron. Kyle Allen has as much ability as any QB in this class. Sumlin jacking around with the QB position didn't really give him or Hill the chance to succeed.
Last edited:
revan
Waterboy
You are right. Since the Schaub days I have been hearing how current years draft class sucks compared to next years draft. We are going on a decade of evading QBs, enough is enough.
Wrong if your talking about my. I liked the 2014 draft class a lot and really liked Winston and Mariotta although I worried about Mariotta's ability to stay healthy. He was hurt a lot in college.
I think the evidence shows it's much more collaborative than you suggest. There's been a major shift in the type of players we draft between the Kubiak era & the O'b era.
XSF & Martin. Back to back 2nd round picks on the OL. Never happened in Kubiak's time (mainly because Kubiak could coach up 3rd, 4th, & later round prospects) & they don't fit Kubiak's "mold."
Fiedorowicz is a different type of TE than OD, Griffin, Dressen, & the other TEs Kubiak brought in.
Will Fuller, no doubt in my mind that's O'bs guy.
Same thing with FAs, Chris Polk was here because O'b thought he had a really good game against us. John Simon was here because Vrabel coached him at Ohio. Vince wouldn't have come here had it not been for Crennel & Vrabel being on the staff.
Personally, I think Rick has demonstrated a willingness to work with his head coach, bringing in players O'b wants.
But O’Brien appears to resist players Rick brings in. Players like Mallett, Osweiler, XSF, Aboushi, & maybe a few others.
If I'm McNair watching these two work, I'm more inclined to be thinking about an O'Brien replacement than a Rick Smith replacement.
Let's say the rumor that O'b wanted Garoppolo instead of XSF is true. If I were McNair I look at Rick Smith's reasoning, he believed we could get him at the top of the third, & what happened, N.E. took him "early." & decide whether I think Rick should have foreseen that.
I don't. So I don't hold that against Rick. He had a good plan that just didn't work. Probably because Godsey leaked to N.E. we were planning on taking Garropolo in the third.
Then I look at what O'b has done with developing young QBs. Mallett, Savage, Osweiler... tells me that drafting Garropolo wouldn't have worked out any better for us.
I see Rick Smith thinking, acting, working in a Texans first manner. I see O'b thinking, acting, working in an O'b first manner.
I'm keeping the Texans first guy.
I think you gotta like the guy. If I'm looking at this year's draft & I don't like they guys that will go in the first round, I'm not going to draft him simply because he's the best available. I'll look to next year.
If next year's crop don't perform up to par, then I stop liking them, I'll look to the next year. Simple as that.
If I see a guy I like & he performs up to expectations then I'll move heaven & earth to get him.
What our problem here is, is that O'O'b has been willy nilly about what he wants & made some bad decisions concerning the QB position. If we signed Fitzpatrick to be the stop gap until we found our QB of the future, why did we cut him, sign Hoyer, then cut him a year later?
Imagine Savage was the plan, we kept Fitzpatrick & he played as well for us in 2015 as he did for the Jets. He's still under contract for a third year so we don't have the drama the Jets did trying to resign him. He either has as good a year in 2016, or he bombs & we move on to Savage.
People are quick to blame Rick for our QB situation, but O'b has done plenty to screw it up himself.
But no one has come out of those drafts. They turned out as bad as they were thought to be. Bortles wasn't ready, Bridgewater is fragile.
Brady Quin sucked... us drafting one of those QBs wouldn't have changed that.
OK, at some point you have to ask yourself, "Why don't I ever like these QBs?" Other teams find QBs. Why is our criteria so difficult to meet? Aren't most college QBs in need of some repair? We need a Jeff Spicoli who can look at a college QB and say, "I can fix this."
revan
Waterboy
How do you know Bortles and Bridgewater would have had the same fate on this team?. Matt Cassel looked like a pro bowler with NE but didn't look anything close to that after he left. Its all with finding the right player with the right coaching staff. My point is we will never know since they refuse to take a chance on a QB.
Who's found a QB? Kirk Cousins & Derek Carr?
If we're talking about having to draft a first round guy, I stand by my statement. None of them have proven to be anything other than what we thought them to be. Trash.
I'm not arguing against drafting guys in the 2nd or later. Tj Yates, Savage, even bringing in Case Keenum. Taking a looksee at former first rounders like Lienart & Weeden.
Even though I have not seen it, I think NFL coaches should be able to get early Dalton, or Tannehill production out of some of these prospects while they're waiting for the next Andrew Luck.
Bridgewater's frailty had nothing to do with the team he was playing for.
All I said was Bortles wasn't ready... meaning he shouldn't have been drafted at #3 overall, much less #1 overall.
& O'b hasn't done crap with developing young QBs. I hope Savage proves me wrong, but I don't believe their plan is to start him this season.
They're saying that now, but I bet something happens between then & now. Being what it is, I'm sure it's going to be something as stupid as Fitz, cutting Fitz to start Hoyer, or giving Brock $37M.