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All Encompassing Lockout Thread

The owners need the players unionized much more than the players need to be unionized. Both sides know this, and that's why decertification is an outstanding ploy by the players.

Why doesn't the NFL allow all players to enter the league as free agents and allow the teams to pay what they want on an open market? That sounds fair to everyone, right? The reason is that they cannon trust themselves, allowing that some teams will overspend and others will overspend. The CBA keeps the ownerships in check and produces an even playing field. And keeps the player costs known. It's the league that needs this CBA.

Sure , but the owners could sanction themselves and keep the league on even footing without the players being unionized - they could set cap restrictions with or without.
Some wouldnt want this as they have more to spend but the majority would want revenue sharing and the cap to remain in place. They know all too well what would happen without those restrictions , salaries would skyrocket and they would likely price themselves out of the market of even more fans with increased prices. Thats not a good business model - they may want to win but few want that at all costs.
 
Just heard this from another site

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211834

Boomer Easison, ex NFL Quarterback who co-hosts a morning sports program on WFAN radio program out of New York, stated this morning that he is very confident that a deal is close because he has talked too a couple of sources with INTIMATE knowledge in the meetings that he trusts that a deal between the owners and players is 80-85% complete with regards to the major issues and that there will be an 18 game season but not right away. He said a deal will be done soon....
 
I would rather lose the season than see a future 18 game season. The season already is a game of attrition, and it will only get worse with a longer season.
 
RT @littlebri88 what is your view of NFL now? more optimistic? about 2 hours ago

@adbrandt REPLIED: Yes, more realization of economic harm ahead for both sides.

------------------------

@adbrandt TWEETED: Not-so-secret-non-mediated-no-lawyer-confidential meetings continue between NFL Owners and Players. Translation: hope for a CBA floats. about 2 hours ago

RT @alanfredffb ASKS adbrandt: Does "no lawyers" mean that DeMaurice Smith is not there? about 2 hours ago

@adbrandt REPLIED: No, he's there. Lone lawyer.

------------------------

@mortreport TWEETED: Eventually attorneys will get involved if/when there is an agreement. Drafting any agreement could be time-consuming so sooner the better. about 3 hours ago

------------------------

@mortreport TWEETED: And the good news remains that discussions will continue and no attorneys present (except for De Smith). about 3 hours ago

------------------------

@mortreport RT @gregaiello: NFL-NFLPA Statement (continued): "Those discussions will continue.” End of statement.
 
http://twitter.com/#!/LanceZierlein

LanceZierlein Lance Zierlein
The #NFL #Lockout could be over sooner than you think. Two sources optomistic about starting the season on time: http://bit.ly/k4lweH

http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootba...-lockout-could-be-over-sooner-than-you-think/

According to a couple of sources, NFL lockout could be over sooner than you think
After reading a report from an online newspaper that an agreement had been reached and that the NFL lockout was likely over, I decided to call a couple of league sources (both on the players’ side) to find out whether or not they knew if there was any truth to this report. The first source said that the report was impossible because the players hadn’t been asked to vote on any new proposal. However, there was also some very good news.

After lengthy discussions with both sources, they both conveyed to me a great deal of hope that a deal would be done by July and possibly as early as late June. Why the sudden optimism? According to one of the sources, “both sides are focusing on the percentage of total revenue coming in (would include the first $1 billion the owners are currently taking off the top) and if that deal gets done, the other issues will probably fall into place fairly quickly according to what I’m hearing.”
 
You'd rather have no football than an 18 game season!?

I think we're going to see the 18 game season eventually. I don't like it, but as long as they add in another bye week (perhaps even three bye weeks a season) and expand the roster it would help some to mitigate the injury issue that will rise from the expanded season.

Just count me in with the crowd that is against the 18 game season.
 
You'd rather have no football than an 18 game season!?

If losing this season would prevent a future of 18 game seasons, then yes. I am vehemently opposed to 18 game seasons.

The 3 main reasons:

1) They are too long- injuries will become far more prevalent

2) It will not reduce cost to fans- they will just add game rates to the 2 extra games

3) Historical stats become meaningless- by adding 2 games a season, you are adding a season for every 8 years a player plays, even more when compared to older generations.
 
If losing this season would prevent a future of 18 game seasons, then yes. I am vehemently opposed to 18 game seasons.

The 3 main reasons:

1) They are too long- injuries will become far more prevalent

2) It will not reduce cost to fans- they will just add game rates to the 2 extra games

3) Historical stats become meaningless- by adding 2 games a season, you are adding a season for every 8 years a player plays, even more when compared to older generations.

1) I agree, that's why they'll need expanded rosters.

2) They weren't changing the overall number of games (20), just dropping two pre-season games.

3) Very true, then again, the same thing happened when they increased from 14 games.
 
Heres how I feel:

1) They are too long- injuries will become far more prevalent

Teams that make it to the playoffs regularly play an extra 1-4 games over teams that don't make the playoffs. Unless you have stats that show otherwise, I have yet to see any definitive evidence that teams that regularly make the playoffs have any negative uptick in injuries compared to teams that regularly miss the playoffs.

Players regularly get hurt in preseason games, and its my understanding that we will be losing some of those in order to add the extra 2 games, so it should be a net wash.


2) It will not reduce cost to fans- they will just add game rates to the 2 extra games

Fans have to pay full season prices to watch preseason garbage games. I'd much rather pay for a regular season game than a preseason game. 8 games a year is nothing compared to any other sport. 9 games is not going to break many fans budgets.


3) Historical stats become meaningless- by adding 2 games a season, you are adding a season for every 8 years a player plays, even more when compared to older generations.


In 1935 there were 12 games.
In 1943 there were 10.
From 1961 to 1977 there were 14.
It wasn't until '78 that we had a 16 game season.


The game evolves and the number of games changes. Its never been a problem with historical stats before, it shouldn't matter now either.
 
1) I agree, that's why they'll need expanded rosters.

2) They weren't changing the overall number of games (20), just dropping two pre-season games.

3) Very true, then again, the same thing happened when they increased from 14 games.

But do we really want to see shoddier football? If the stars get injured, it will be scrubs playing.

Do you normally pay full price for pre-season games? Legitimate question.

True, but that does not mean I like this one.
 
But do we really want to see shoddier football? If the stars get injured, it will be scrubs playing.

Do you normally pay full price for pre-season games? Legitimate question.

True, but that does not mean I like this one.

We get injuries every year, there's always some scrub playing, whether it's a QB or an OL.

Yes, Pre-Season games are FULL price. I pay for 10 games every year, it's just that 2 of them don't count right now.
 
18 game season + franchise expansion (both a matter of time) = watered down product

Then, add the increasing "safety rules" that are becoming more and more prevalent, and this ain't your dad's NFL!

Predicting trends, I can see myself eventually disinterested in the sport. Which is sad, but it's just not going to be the same football that I fell in love with as a kid.

But it is what it is. For every dude getting older like me, they have several younger fans to replace me. The league will continue whether I watch it or not.
 
18 game season + franchise expansion (both a matter of time) = watered down product

Then, add the increasing "safety rules" that are becoming more and more prevalent, and this ain't your dad's NFL!

Predicting trends, I can see myself eventually disinterested in the sport. Which is sad, but it's just not going to be the same football that I fell in love with as a kid.

But it is what it is. For every dude getting older like me, they have several younger fans to replace me. The league will continue whether I watch it or not.

Playing Devil's Advocate here, do you really believe that the league is a less competitive watered down version of what it was 30-40 years ago?

There is more parity now, the players are bigger, faster, stronger, etc.

I personally feel that the league is a constantly evolving force, which will change to meet whatever demands are put on it. 18 game season? Players with less injury problems and better endurance will start to replace higher risk players. Sure, you might lose guys like Bob Sanders, but is this a bad thing? On the one hand you never get to experience his amazing play in short bursts. But on the other hand teams won't take the chance on a guy who only gives you 5-6 games a year. So you'll get someone who is less talented but more consistent coming in.
 
Playing Devil's Advocate here, do you really believe that the league is a less competitive watered down version of what it was 30-40 years ago?

I would not say less competitive, because that's a perception thing.

But, it is certainly watered down. QB rules alone have heavily favored offenses. Is the guy a football player or not? It seems more and more like QBs are given a bubble around them, and while some rules are understandable (i.e. hits below the knee), others are just making defenders play less aggressive than they were in the 1970's and '80's.

I just disclaimer right now that I'm a BIG fan of great defenses, so this is my perspective.

Here's a good article from five years ago, and the rules are just getting more and more about protecting the marque players....errrr...QBs:

NFL rules about hitting the QB handcuffing defenders

•Questionable calls. Flags have been thrown in cases when defenders seemed unable to stop momentum.

•Passive grasps. Some defenders in position to tackle quarterbacks let them slip away because they feared a penalty.

----------------------

"It's almost like a punter, where you just try to avoid the guy," Smith said.

Roughing-the-passer is a judgment call. Mike Pereira, NFL director of officials, is clear on how crews should lean: "When in doubt, do make the call."

Do we really want defenders treating QBs like freakin' punters?? That's certainly not our dad's NFL, no doubt about it.

And another more recent article:

Peyton Manning: Consecutive QB Start Streak Record Will Soon Be Unimpressive

Peyton Manning made his 200th career and consecutive start yesterday, but unfortunately for him it came with a loss. And as we all know, his start streak is the second-longest in NFL history. But if, and when, he breaks Brett Favre's record, it won't be as impressive.

With the current "safety" rules in place in the NFL that are strictly enforced for the quarterback, it seems as if Peyton Manning will never get hurt. This all came to my attention after watching the Colts-Eagles game yesterday afternoon when on a fourth- and-18 late in the fourth quarter, Trent Cole was penalized for grazing Manning's helmet.

Now I do think some of the safety rules are valid, such as clearly hitting a defenseless player. But it is obvious from the above articles and others that officials are to call the benefit of the doubt for QBs, thus watering down defenses.

There is more parity now, the players are bigger, faster, stronger, etc.

Some folks see parity as equalling mediocrity.

I used to be a fan of parity. But honestly, after a decade as a Texans fan, we haven't seen any benefits of so-called parity. I'm not so sold on it these days.

Either way, it's good for business, as clearly revealed by increased ratings.

Is there more parity? This is from the 2009 season:

In N.F.L., Parity Is Taking a Turn for the Worse

In a league celebrated for its competitive balance, in which coaches say that games come down to “inches” and are won or lost on a “handful” of plays, the bottom of the standings has ballooned with more teams that appear worse than usual.

----------------------

In the N.F.L., this is not supposed to happen. With revenue sharing, the salary cap, draft rules that reward the highest draft selections to the teams with the worst records and schedules based, in part, on the previous season’s results, the standings are supposed to be swollen in the middle, filled with competitive teams fighting for playoff spots.

Parity, they call this concept that is highlighted toward the end of every season. So where is it?

As far as your other point, that "players are bigger, faster, stronger", this actually supports the notion that they are at a higher risk of injury as a result of being bigger, faster, stronger.

Concussions are more prevalent today, both because they are better diagnosed, but also because players are hitting and getting hit harder than ever due to the increase in size, weight, and strength.

And let's not forget that while you can increase your muscles, you cannot increase the strength of your joints. The torque put on knees is much greater today than before due to the increase in mass and strength (plus speed). Logically, this tends to lead to more injuries, which waters down the product because the top talent is more spread about among teams (which will only continue to trend if they expand the league).

NFL injuries cause concern as league evolves

“I think the game is unsafer. Just look at the physicalness of football now. Athletes are bigger and stronger and faster, and mass media has the effect of glamorizing big hits, and it increases risks of concussions,” said Dr. Adam Shunk, a neuropsychologist at St. Vincent Sports Performance Center in Indianapolis, in an Associated Press article. Training equipment maximizes a player’s ability to build muscle and gain more athletic ability.

Now it would seem a contradiction to point out the increased safety rules for QBs while also revealing the increase in injury statistics, but the key point here is that the league is heavily favoring one position over the others. QBs are highly protected because they help sell tickets. And it is this heavy marketing angle that starts to differentiate between today's game and the football that we grew up on.

I personally feel that the league is a constantly evolving force, which will change to meet whatever demands are put on it. 18 game season? Players with less injury problems and better endurance will start to replace higher risk players. Sure, you might lose guys like Bob Sanders, but is this a bad thing? On the one hand you never get to experience his amazing play in short bursts. But on the other hand teams won't take the chance on a guy who only gives you 5-6 games a year. So you'll get someone who is less talented but more consistent coming in.

I understand where you are coming from, but there is a breaking point somewhere. There cannot be an infinity placed on the game, where extending the season and diluting the talent has no implications on the product.

Now, instead of multiple dynasties of the past, we have wars of attrition, where injury reports are much more of an impact on the game because bench talent is nowhere near the level that it was 30 years ago.

Teams like the Patriots and Colts excel because they have elite QBs - who are already highly protected by the league - exploiting the weakness of teams often decimated by injuries or teams just not good because there are simply not enough good secondary players to go around. Add to that the hogtied rules of defenders as it relates to interference, holding, and zone hits, and defenses are clearly being weakened in order to continue the trend of increasing scores which is directly correlated to ratings numbers.

I'm not criticizing the NFL here, at least that's not my objective. It's a good product, but it's not our dad's NFL anymore. And I can see a point 10-20 years from now when some fundamental aspects have shifted so much that it's not even my NFL anymore.

That's not a "good" or "bad" thing, but like you said, it's an evolution that I can either accept or reject. JMO
 
18 game season + franchise expansion (both a matter of time) = watered down product

Then, add the increasing "safety rules" that are becoming more and more prevalent, and this ain't your dad's NFL!

Predicting trends, I can see myself eventually disinterested in the sport. Which is sad, but it's just not going to be the same football that I fell in love with as a kid.

But it is what it is. For every dude getting older like me, they have several younger fans to replace me. The league will continue whether I watch it or not.

Agree. I'll always be interested...Cowboys, Texans, fantasy, etc but overall I think it is watered down. The guys might be bigger and faster but there seems to be alot more scrubs in the groups when in the old days it was best of the best it seemed to me. I hate the 18 game schedule because it makes games watered down...we already have guys barely creeping through a 16 gamer. But the commish will push it despite being a hypocrite abotu safety. I was hoping players would stand up to the 18 game thing but who knows.

Well said.
 
I would not say less competitive, because that's a perception thing.

But, it is certainly watered down.

Man, I wish I could rep this post.

Teams in the '70s could actually BUILD their team. The ones that were good at it (Steelers, Raiders, Cowboys, among others) were dominant. Today, you have teams jumping up from last to first and then back to last. I don't consider that "better". Maybe it's more fun for fans on that roller coaster ride, but I rather enjoyed watching the Oilers build a team, rather than just putting together a puzzle. And defense mattered back then. Now, if you hold a team to 30 points, you played good defense. That's crap, and it's a direct result of rules changes over the years.

Meh, NFL is better now in some ways, particularly marketing and exposure. But the actual product was better before, on balance. JMO.
 
I was against the 18-game season.

But having a taste of this mini-term lockout has made me think that the players are going to have to concede some things. An extra two games should not be a walk-away catalyst in the talks, IMO.

At this point, I just want my football. I've been conditioned for the past 30 years of my life for this rhythm:

1. Super Bowl ends, a little bit of off-season coaching changes and the dorky Pro Bowl that I say I will never watch again yet end up watching. Again.

2. The long drought of nothing but NASCAR and golf and (gulp) N-B-A.

3. THE DRAFT!!! Cue the Howard Dean scream...

4. The buildup to rookie signings, discussing the schedule of games, and free agent talks.

5. CAMPS!!!! Daily reports, debating with other fans about how our players look out there and who is doing good and who is not. Quotes from coaches in the media. From players. From analysts. Etc.

6. Pre-Season! The first inkling of football season hits you when the Hall of Fame Game is played. You care nothing about Saints-Lions in the reg season, but you are damn sure watching them play in the Hall of Fame Game. You know you do. So don't lie.

7. Reg Season. Bring this **** on. BRING IT!!! Sundays are for football. Nothing else to say. Weekdays are for living for Sundays.

So, if that 30-year pattern is broken for me...well, the universe will unravel.

An agreement helps me continue the rhythm even if there's been a hiccup for the past 90 or so days.

Besides, THIS is the year Kubiak has to get us to the playoffs...or else. Right? LOL.
 
Here is a nicely constructed analysis by Andrew Brandt, a guy whose tweets I have been posting in this thread (I think he has great inside connections on this topic).

Hope Floats? Mtgs. Continue, Doty Waits, Player Contact

Below is just a small portion of the article, a lot more can be found at the linked article's location.

The motion to dismiss

The Owners’ answer to the initial complaint of Brady v. NFL was due last week. Instead, they filed a motion to dismiss, saying the Players have no claim and judicial resources should not be wasted.

I would put this motion in the “it doesn’t hurt to ask” category. It also delays the process -- the hearing on the motion is not until August 29th -- and time is not on the Players’ side. Speaking of timing,

The Doty ruling

Still pending is an expected windfall for Players when Judge David Doty rules on the Owners' negotiations with television networks regarding lockout funding. Doty is expected to hand the Players a large damage award that could be a financial safe haven if paychecks are missed.

Doty may be holding his ruling to see what comes of the current negotiations, as it could derail the momentum of the talks. Even with a large award, the Players’ problem is timing. Doty’s ruling will be appealed to the Eighth Circuit; with tight schedules and summer vacations ahead, it may not be heard until fall. Doty represents yet another judge indicating he would rather have the parties make a deal instead of inserting his view into it.

Raheem’s “whoops” comment

On a recent radio interview, Buccanneers coach Raheem Morris let it slip out that he sees and talks to his players during this no-contact period. Morris was probably quickly got a couple phone calls from management and/or league officials.

The no-contact rule is frustrating to coaches (although many players don’t mind being off limits in the offseason). To think that there is not contact going on between coaches and players is naïve. My sense is that the NFL knows that it is occurring, but we are dealing with a slippery slope.

The no-contact rule prohibits NFL “business”: negotiations, coaching, etc. The NFL cannot prevent “social” contacts. As league executive once told me when I was with the Packers about contact with a suspended player: “We can’t tell you who your friends are.” The same is true here.

Many coaches and players are friends as well as colleagues. They talk to each other about their families, the weather, sports, etc. Do conversations sometimes leak into “football” discussions? I’ll let you answer that.
 
After being on vacation the past week it was nice to see some progress on this BS made when I got back on the web. At this time everything's sounding very optimistic from both sides. After being absent from the latest meetings, the lawyers are back in the mix and Schefter believes it's a good sign. Per his Twitter:

After taking off past two rounds of talks in Chicago and on Long Island, lawyers back involved in these meetings. This time it's good.
 
It is good news, but the way these dufus' have been handling things, the situation could take a 180 degree turn in the matter of minutes.

Actually, I think we're nearing the "dotting the i's and crossing the t's" stage.

The lawyers are involved now, and it's for making sure the language and the structure of the deal will be indicative of the agreements they are likely reaching right now.

I wonder if the extended meeting means they are wanting to wrap this thing up and have it done, which means everybody needs to be ready to enter the final phases and stay longer to get it finalized.

By the way, the word "finalized" was coined by Dwight D. Eisenhower back during WWII when he was the Supreme Allied Commander for the Allied Expeditionary Force. It wasn't a word until Ike made it a word. Cool, huh?
 
Actually, I think we're nearing the "dotting the i's and crossing the t's" stage.

The lawyers are involved now, and it's for making sure the language and the structure of the deal will be indicative of the agreements they are likely reaching right now.

I wonder if the extended meeting means they are wanting to wrap this thing up and have it done, which means everybody needs to be ready to enter the final phases and stay longer to get it finalized.

By the way, the word "finalized" was coined by Dwight D. Eisenhower back during WWII when he was the Supreme Allied Commander for the Allied Expeditionary Force. It wasn't a word until Ike made it a word. Cool, huh?

Oh, man. That's rad. I love trivia like that. Thanks for sharing. :)

Labor Negotiations 80-85 Percent Complete

One source with intimate knowledge of the discussions tells me negotiations are 80-85 percent complete. They've made such fast progress, I'm told, it's catching many of the principals by surprise. Some are now canceling vacations, believing an agreement will be reached within a matter of days.

Woah.
 
By the way, the word "finalized" was coined by Dwight D. Eisenhower back during WWII when he was the Supreme Allied Commander for the Allied Expeditionary Force. It wasn't a word until Ike made it a word. Cool, huh?

When was the term "BS" coined?

Finalize has been frequently castigated as an unnecessary neologism or as United States government gobbledygook. It appears to have first gained currency in Australia (where it has been acceptable all along) in the early 1920s. The United States Navy picked it up in the late 20s, and from there it came into widespread use.

FINALIZE
 
John Clayton just said on ESPN that the difference is $200million per year & deal should be done soon with "back to normal" by July 4th weekend or the next, if the "lawyers don't screw it up."
 
I don't think the lawyers can screw this up. It has too much momentum.

The scolding from the 8th circuit judges seems to have lit a fire under both parties.

I'm thinking that maybe the players have pushed DeMaurice Smith into conceding the tough-guy act (which is why you see him having the so-called "jovial dinner" with Roger Goodell recently--A peace offering, of sorts).

Smith came into his position saying he wasn't going to be best friends with the commissioner. I think he held his line right up until about a week or so ago, and my hunch is that a few key players have expressed to him that now is the time to back off and to settle with the owners.

And, possibly the tough guy act has partially allowed the players to even get to this point where the owners, too, are ready to put away the spears and settle the dispute like gentlemen. Maybe both sides are worn down and know they need to rescue themselves from a bad situation growing worse as the summer drags along.

June has typically been spent in rather mild-mannered OTAs, as well as signing rookies from the draft. July is the real crunch time: Training Camps. I was not looking forward to the idea of possibly no camps and maybe even no preseason, as well. Now, it seems our team will be able to soak up Wade Phillips defensive philosophies like they need to.

Mort at espn.go.com has been saying all along it gets done prior to July 4th. We've spent so long without any legit football news that it's going to be a fast-moving landslide when business resumes in the next few weeks.
 
I don't think the lawyers can screw this up. It has too much momentum.

The scolding from the 8th circuit judges seems to have lit a fire under both parties.

I'm thinking that maybe the players have pushed DeMaurice Smith into conceding the tough-guy act (which is why you see him having the so-called "jovial dinner" with Roger Goodell recently--A peace offering, of sorts).

Smith came into his position saying he wasn't going to be best friends with the commissioner. I think he held his line right up until about a week or so ago, and my hunch is that a few key players have expressed to him that now is the time to back off and to settle with the owners.

And, possibly the tough guy act has partially allowed the players to even get to this point where the owners, too, are ready to put away the spears and settle the dispute like gentlemen. Maybe both sides are worn down and know they need to rescue themselves from a bad situation growing worse as the summer drags along.

June has typically been spent in rather mild-mannered OTAs, as well as signing rookies from the draft. July is the real crunch time: Training Camps. I was not looking forward to the idea of possibly no camps and maybe even no preseason, as well. Now, it seems our team will be able to soak up Wade Phillips defensive philosophies like they need to.

Mort at espn.go.com has been saying all along it gets done prior to July 4th. We've spent so long without any legit football news that it's going to be a fast-moving landslide when business resumes in the next few weeks.

Doubt three days more kills a deal. Its still on in my book until the 7th of July.
 
Attorneys almost blew up talks yesterday but Smith tells them to stand down.

One person close to the talks even went so far as to say, "This almost blew up yesterday."

How close it did is a matter of opinion. Fact is, the moment came shortly after lawyers from both sides were brought back into the process at an undisclosed location in the Washington, D.C., area. As tensions rose and anger grew, two sources said NFLPA leader DeMaurice Smith instructed his lawyers to "stand down."

With the lawyers removed from the direct negotiations, the process was said to get back on track and to a good spot. The scenario is an example of just how tenuous these talks can be and how quickly they can be derailed.

But it also is the ultimate proof that Smith and his players, and NFL commissioner Roger Goodell and the owners have taken the process out of the hands of the attorneys and demanded that they control it as the two sides try to hammer out a new collective bargaining agreement.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6663832
 
^^^^^^^

LOL...every dispute has one winner....the lawyers. Kicking them out is a good sign for sure.
 
I'm still somewhat hopefull, and I'm still pissed about it all, and I'm still in a holding pattern before I get seriously hopefull.
 
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