Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
Actually, the WC offense is predicated on shorter, underneath routes. It's a ball control offense. Although, to be more effective, you have to be able to stretch the field once in a while.
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Adam Schein: "Texans Shouldn't Give up on Carr now"
- Thread starter Texans_Chick
- Start date
I wonder where some of you posters get your opinions from because it is certainly not the facts. "...limited ability and value as a QB." Did you know that Major is UT's all-time leader-in among other things- passing yds (between 8-9000) and 60tds? Did you know that Applewhite got these stats despite 'riding' the bench for a year and a half so Sims could start? Applewhie threw the ball all over the field and was a very accurate passer and didn't get 8000+ yds in 30 games by dinkin' and dunkin.'
Major was not drafted by the pros because of his bad knees (limited mobility) and height. He was signed by the Patriots as a FA and eventually signed on by the Pats but-because of his knees-gave back his signing bonus...since then, he has become a 'top notch' coach moving up the collegiate ladder--now on Nick Saban's staff at Alabama.
http://riceowls.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/applewhite_major00.html
The other emphasis is scoring points, which Kubiak mentioned at the end of the year.
Cutler only started 5 games but if you avg those 5 games over 16 you get the kind of stats that Carr has never had--3204yds/29tds/16ints/7.3ypa/42sacks/38throws between 20-40yds
Carr has had some of these #'s but not all in the same year. Cutler's sack totals are a little high --will be something to watch...
Irony is expecting Kudos when a 5 year starter performs as well as a rookie.
IF this were Vince's fifth year, and he's throwing for 208 yards in his better games, I'd be criticizing Vince as well.
I also mention that it is not too shabby because he did as well as Peyton & Brady against us.
Really. Why? How can you tell after one year?
& what difference does it make anyway??
There will be plenty of SuperBowls to go around. Cutler may win one. Vince may win one. the Texans will win one. Carr might....
plenty to go around.
S
SESupergenius
Guest
I still havn't seem one viable plan after we let Carr go.
TwinSisters
Veteran
It is the fact and my opinion.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/peter_king/news/2002/06/06/king_insider/
there are other interviews out there with Belichick's quotes
----
A football field is 53 1/3rd yards wide. The NFL uses every inch of it, and some when you consider the Rice/Carter one handed one foot in bounds out route.
College is nothing even remotely close to this.
Those quick hit passes are bullets that travel 20-25 yards. Mid range outs push up into 35-45 yards.
S
SESupergenius
Guest
Not with that defense. People tend to forget them and make Carr the "Scapegoat boy". Giving him too much credit in wins and too much credit in losses. In case anyone was looking, the defense lost the game to VY, and that's when the Carr threads started to pour on.
It's not like we're having to replace an all-pro, just the opposite. 11 tds in his 5th year? Ball taken out of his hands? Legacy of under achievement that is everyone elses fault...coddled, special treatment, different set of rules...
...a state of mind so fragile that Capers had to call Carr before the team drafted Ragone, so he wouldn't be up set and take it the wrong way/absolutely zero competition for 5 yrs/and, when finally benched (and his replacement did a 'lights out) for poor play, Kubiak 'tripped' all over himself apologizing to David for benching him and publicly apologizes in the papers, claiming Carr was the 'man'...
...give me a break...what is it going to take for this team to start/play someone besides Carr?...absolutely insane!!
No, I don't want Jake. I think Huard would be a good choice, even Sage--draft a newbie to learn the ropes....don't talk about Huard's mobility in the WC because it's not there with Carr either nor is a vertical passing game of any kind.
There is nothing Carr has gone through that other QBs have not experienced--only difference is excuses and results---we have too much of the former and not much of the latter...
no, David fumbled the ball twice. once, right after Kubiak told him to take care of the ball. Then getting himself benched in that game, of all games, turned a lot of posters on David Carr.
Besides, in the game you are talking about, the Defense put the ball in the offenses hands twice with a score of 0-0. The offense couldn't do anything with it.
the defense holds Tennessee to 3 points. the offense gets the ball, and we get nothing.
Again, our defense holds them to three points. This time, we put the ball in Ron Dayne's hands, and viola....... instant offense. We get 7.
We force another punt, our offense does nothing. Our defense forces another punt before the half.
Ron Dayne leads us to another TD after the half.
Our defense forces another punt.
Ron Dayne tries to lead us to the endzone again, but you know one guy can only do so much..... so we punt.
Vince picks up 45 yards on two throws of a 63 yard TD drive. Our defense failed.
We put the ball in David's hands again. A 3 yard pass. a 2 yard pass. then an incomplete short pass. Then we punt.
OUr defense forces a 3 & Out.
Our offense........ well let's just say an illegal forward pass killed a drive. But we got a FG & the lead.
Our defense gives up a 90 yard drive for a touchdown.... 20-17, Tennessee.
David led us on a 31 yard drive for a FG. 20-20 with 2:08 left on the clock.
Our defense forces a 3 & Out, we get the ball back with 0:53 seconds on the clock, at the 10 yard line.
Our coach asks our QB what he'd like to do......
We take two knees. & go to OT.
Sheer genius. Hello, Mr. McNair? Please replace Rick Smith immediately.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
That is Rick Smith .
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You are mixing two games together.
In the 1st TN game Carr fumbled twice and got benched. In the 2nd TN game Carr didn't fumble and the game went to OT.
no I'm not.
I tried to use the words, "Besides, in the game you're talking about..." to differentiate between the two games.
I referenced the first game as the point where the number of anti-Carr posts really took an upswing.
The second game, the point was that the offense was given plenty of opportunities to take a lead, or extend a lead, or win the game in regulation.
I'm talking about two different games, there is no mix up there.
Goldeagle
Veteran
And after AJ cant catch passes and get open a time or two, he should keep his mouth shut.
Hulk75
Veteran
Why because Jake has played on better teams, a lot better teams. Rub the dirt out of your eyes, when comparring one player to another look at the team as a whole, thats the only way you can do it.
And Jake is not better then David Carr, not even close.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
still waiting for your response to getting called out on your 20 teams spewage on the other thread hulk.....
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Prove it .
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
Well. Well. Well. Another Carr bashing/loving thread. Geez this board is getting predictable.
As someone who had Carr's back going into the year, I for one was very disappointed in his play in 06.
However, I saw some changes in the offense after we lost 3 offensive lineman in one game.
Naked bootlegs with the QB throwing on the run. What happened to those?
They seemed to work so well early in the season.
What happened to the zone blocking scheme?
Also, Carr locked into AJ way too much. Can he be improved?
I submit exhibit 1...Jake Plummer
If the Kube can improve Jake he can improve Carr.
Remember...The Kube O is not something that is learned overnight. Even "The Great Jake" other posters are clamoring for took a couple of years to get it down.
DC is the most durable player I have seen in this league in a long time. Name me one QB in the NFL that could have taken the kind of beating this kid has taken the last 5 years and still not be slurring his words like Mahommed Ali?
Name one! Even the great P. Manning and Tom Brady would be sitting in a rubber room with a helmet on if they had taken that kind of pounding.
I agree with other posters.
If you can't upgrade the position, you have to keep him. Wait for a better QB class in the 08 draft and get your new franchise QB. If you wanted to upgrade through FA, Drew Brees was the guy you should have went after.
And no! Chris Simms, Sage Rosenfels, Jake Plummer or <insert your favorite backup QB name here> would not be an upgrade.
As someone who had Carr's back going into the year, I for one was very disappointed in his play in 06.
However, I saw some changes in the offense after we lost 3 offensive lineman in one game.
Naked bootlegs with the QB throwing on the run. What happened to those?
They seemed to work so well early in the season.
What happened to the zone blocking scheme?
Also, Carr locked into AJ way too much. Can he be improved?
I submit exhibit 1...Jake Plummer
If the Kube can improve Jake he can improve Carr.
Remember...The Kube O is not something that is learned overnight. Even "The Great Jake" other posters are clamoring for took a couple of years to get it down.
DC is the most durable player I have seen in this league in a long time. Name me one QB in the NFL that could have taken the kind of beating this kid has taken the last 5 years and still not be slurring his words like Mahommed Ali?
Name one! Even the great P. Manning and Tom Brady would be sitting in a rubber room with a helmet on if they had taken that kind of pounding.
I agree with other posters.
If you can't upgrade the position, you have to keep him. Wait for a better QB class in the 08 draft and get your new franchise QB. If you wanted to upgrade through FA, Drew Brees was the guy you should have went after.
And no! Chris Simms, Sage Rosenfels, Jake Plummer or <insert your favorite backup QB name here> would not be an upgrade.
Well. Well. Well. Another Carr bashing/loving thread. Geez this board is getting predictable.
As someone who had Carr's back going into the year, I for one was very disappointed in his play in 06.
However, I saw some changes in the offense after we lost 3 offensive lineman in one game.
Naked bootlegs with the QB throwing on the run. What happened to those?
They seemed to work so well early in the season.
What happened to the zone blocking scheme?
Also, Carr locked into AJ way too much. Can he be improved?
I submit exhibit 1...Jake Plummer
If the Kube can improve Jake he can improve Carr.
Remember...The Kube O is not something that is learned overnight. Even "The Great Jake" other posters are clamoring for took a couple of years to get it down.
DC is the most durable player I have seen in this league in a long time. Name me one QB in the NFL that could have taken the kind of beating this kid has taken the last 5 years and still not be slurring his words like Mahommed Ali?
Name one! Even the great P. Manning and Tom Brady would be sitting in a rubber room with a helmet on if they had taken that kind of pounding.
I agree with other posters.
If you can't upgrade the position, you have to keep him. Wait for a better QB class in the 08 draft and get your new franchise QB. If you wanted to upgrade through FA, Drew Brees was the guy you should have went after.
And no! Chris Simms, Sage Rosenfels, Jake Plummer or <insert your favorite backup QB name here> would not be an upgrade.
Congratulations! Someone who gets it. I certainly hope that Smith and Kubiak see it that way.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Except his record and stats. I forgot, you saw him dodge a whole bunch of kids after they 5 Mississippi'ed him and his threw a laser to little Billy. Even a crappy Jake got the Cards to one playoff game. Your proof is no better than anyone elses.
... and neither is your assertion.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Isn't that what "anyone elses" means? Honestly I think someones stats under the same coach say something. Add to that the fact that he didn't have that same talent under a rudder-less Cards team and I'll give him credit for getting them to the playoffs and winning a game. Is he the savior?No. But what I just pointed out puts him ahead of who we have. I'll just never get why fans would like to "settle" for more of the same just to wait a year until we can draft a better guy. Doesn't the reaction of Duante and others last year make anyone go "hmmmm", maybe the team is ready for something else and are tired of the questions.
No it doesn't. Same coach but different team. Can't compare.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Except the Cards info I posted. They didn't have the talent around him. The "anyone else" comment meant that none of us know who would be better at this point. We only have stats as a comparison.
Just Curious.
Do you think the Cards should have stuck with Warner??
Do you think the 'boys should have stuck with Bledsoe??
Do you think the Dolphins should have stuck with Cullpepper??
Do you think the Titan's should have stuck with Collins??
Do you think the Raiders should have stuck with Brooks??
No, no, no, no, and no. Fortunately these teams had an opportunity to upgrade: Leinart, Romo, Harrington, Young...... But I do think that the Texans should stay with Carr more year. I don't want an old veteran and I don't see a young QB that's available. If Plummer is all we can get, I'd rather spend the dollars building up the rest of the team, give Carr another year, and see how it goes.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Lienart vs Plummer = Lienart
Romo vs Plummer = Romo
Harrington vs Plummer = Plummer
Young vs Plummer = Young
Walters vs Plummer = Walters
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
If you can't upgrade the position, you have to keep him. Wait for a better QB class in the 08 draft and get your new franchise QB. If you wanted to upgrade through FA, Drew Brees was the guy you should have went after.
And no! Chris Simms, Sage Rosenfels, Jake Plummer or <insert your favorite backup QB name here> would not be an upgrade.
This is what it all boils down to. Whether, in your opinion, it's possible to upgrade the QB position by going to someone other than Carr. And that's the point of all the discussion. Some people think that Carr is better than the alternatives and some people think that the alternatives are better than Carr. In my opinion, which is different than yours but just as valid (ie, either of us could be wrong), Carr has been irreparably broken and there are many QB's out there that would be an upgrade. A significant upgrade.
Why do you think Carr would be hard to replace?
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
I just don't buy into the ABC (Anyone But Carr) train of thought. He's not a great QB and probably has been too damaged. However, that anyone could be someone like A. Brooks.
Like others have said. With his contract, it would be very difficult to get enough value in return. If it makes people sleep better, renegotiate his contract. Make him compete for the starting job. Whatever.
I do not think you could get someone like Garcia, Huard, or Schaub to come in learn the offense and get the Texans to the playoffs next year. This team has way too many holes to fill.
Money that would be spent to get a washed up, has been/never was, like Plummer could be better spent addressing the other needs.
Face it. Casserly/Capers did significant damage to the team with their personnel moves. Anyone remember Tony Boselli?
It will take another year or two to dig out of the hole they put the Texans into.
Just grin and bear it until a quality young QB comes along in 08 draft and work on the other areas needing fixing.
Plummer = Carr 5 years from now.
& there is my question. What would make anyone think those guys are upgrades over anyone?? None of them have played a down in the NFL, and they all replaced QBs with proven trackrecords, and accolades out the wazoo.
Lienart
...replaced Kurt Warner..... Kurt's a ProBowler, League MVP, SuperBowl MVP, and SuperBowl champion. Personally, I don't believe the decision to go to Warner was because they thought Leinart gave them a better shot to win, but because they knew they weren't going anywhere, and they might as well get the rook some NFL experience..... you know, get the jitters out now, since they don't have a chance.
Romo
... replaced Bledsoe..... Led his team to the SuperBowl. Multible ProBowls, and his career stats are right up there with all the greats. Personally, I wouldn't have sat Bledsoe.... he's got experience, & he can make all the throws. If the Cowboys were going to the SuperBowl, it was going to be on the legs of Barber & Jones. If their Secondary wasn't like ours, Bledsoe wouldn't have had to take so many chances to stay in the game. Romo hadn't played a down, and it was pretty gutsy for Bill to put Romo in after he kept saying the kid wasn't ready.
Harrington
... over Cullpepper. Joey has shown zip, zilch, nada in the NFL. & I'm a fan. Cullpepper has done it all, short of playing in a Super Bowl. Who'd have thunk Harrington would be more effective??
Young
... over Collins. Regardless what Collins has done, he's become a bit of a joke over the last two..... three years. I think the only reason Tennessee signed him was so the fans wouldn't think Vince ruined their shot at the play-offs.
If you called all those changes, my hats off to you. You've got a better eye than I do.
I don't expect to see Plummer in Houston.
Texian
Hall of Fame
For me it is a little more complicated than that. I will try to simplify my explanation. Last year they gave Carr $13,000,000, 8 in signing bonus 5 in salary. Less than a year later they decide, it is time to get rid of Carr and bring in Plummer. Plummer will want a minimum of $8-10 million in gaurantees.
What will Plummer give you? Not much more than Carr, if any, could be worse.
This time next year they realize Plummer is not the answer, they are out over $20,000,000 in two years and they still don't have a QB. There is not a QB in league that makes $10,000,000 a year.
BS, stop the insanity. Quit throwing away money and live with your mistake. Give Sage a fair chance and make for the best plans in 08 to fix the QB long term if things don't work out. Take the money you save from not cutting Carr and the money you save from not signing Plummer and use it to sign Luke Pettigout. Sage, Carr and Van Pelt may the best man win.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Here is what I don't get and none of you, myself included can answer. Romo was a 3rd stringer all his life and pretty much a guy no one was talking about UNTIL Parcells had the guts to replace Bledsoe. All of a sudden the line of the Cowboys looked alot better, etc. None of you can sit here and say that Romo is an upgrade on anyone on the list pre-replacement. Same with Leinart..a rookie who hadn't played or Young, whom many on this board said couldn't hold Carr's or others jock strap. Harrington was a castoff and was backing up an ex-pro bowler who was supposed to get the Dolphins to the SB. So how can any one you without hindsight say that these guys were/are better. Yet we are supposed to ignore the fact that MAYBE Rosenfels and Plummer might be better than our alternative? You are making the anti-Carr argument. Guys who weren't supposed to play and who were backups or rookies making a difference. The fact that Plummer actually won with Arizona makes it even more considering some above are saying Plummer is Carr in 5 years..with the exception of a playoff win on a horrible team.
P.S..I'm looking up and seeing TK wrote some similar things. Sorry. I just don't get the circular reasoning which makes no sense. The only reason people are answering those QBs are better is because of hindsight...at the time they were inserted they were non-entities. Sound familiar. Without seeing what else they can do, none of those aother guys would have improved their team.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
I guess there are 2 different trains of thought here....
1. Just get to the playoffs at 10-6. Lose in the first round with an old QB that will have to be replaced again.
2. Build a dynasty.
For me. I prefer option #2.
If you can really upgrade at the QB position, with a young QB. Then go for it.
If you want Sage, make him compete for the job. Make Carr compete for the job. Hell. Make Van Pelt compete for the job. Cut Carr's salary. I don't really care.
The laundry list for the Texans is almost as long as the Federal Budget document the President sends to Congress.
Please...
Spend the money wisely. Don't ignore the other obvious problems on the team by just focusing on the QB spot.
You can have a great QB.
But if your defense is horrible. No running game. No O line.
The results will be the same.
If you want option #2, then the 08 draft is your best shot for a QB upgrade unless someone like Matt Hasselbeck falls into your lap this off season.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
OK, if we follow your scenario then you sign Plummer to go 10-6 and lose in the first round while he starts again in year #2 with the rookie of your choice learning the system from a guy who has gone to the playoffs multiple times under the coach OR you have a rookie from 07 learn under the same guy too. That's just from your scenario....without the drama of the QB deal we have now. There is no reason why you can't slihghtly upgrade and still build that dynasty with a rookie. You can still upgrade in other areas especially after we just did in the last draft.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
Sorry. You won't change my mind on ABC or Plummer. We will have to agree to disagree.
Plummer will want too much cash. We have to spread the money around.
Get by with the 3 QBs you already have for the time being. The bed was made, now we have to lay in it.
If Kubiak did wonders for Plummer (I mean we are talking about Jake Plummer right?), he can do wonders for the other QBs we already have.
The Denver retreads are already getting old with me.
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Anyone who has watched the NFL knows that not all QBs are created equally. The sad part is that the convo is Jake v. Carr. That is sad in itself. The biggest problem is that you can only "get by" for so long. That is why you start losing the AJs and others to free agency. I'll agree to disagree though and I'll take that 10-6 and the Texans first playoff appearance. I think most would. One of the first things you do to change a team is to change the atmosphere of losing. Another "get by" year doesn't do it.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
If Kubiak had not told McNair to pull the $8,000,000 trigger last year, I might tend to agree with you.
And remember...
Plummer did not just click under Kubiak his first year either.
Hulk75
Veteran
What would you like me to do, tell you were and who i have heard it from? why in the bloody heck would i share anything with most! of you? there are people who know around here, I dont care to say who, they know.
Like I said what is my reson for lying? Why would I just make it up, you guys allready hate him so what does it matter right? I drop stuff on here from time to time for people who acctually care and trust me.
I write things and you think I am lying, well I am not a guy that goes around deseving people and lying to make others look good. You can believe me or not, thats up to you, I dont need to defend what I write because it is what it is. You guys make me laugh, who do you think might know a little something, you or me? I said 20 so you can believe it is 20 or not. You dont cause you think he is bad, and not having resources like other successfull QB means nothing to you. It is Carr, it is all on him, we want Quinn we want this guy, even Jake Plummer is better now, anyone but Carr, BUT 20 think other wise, I will blow your doors off with another bit, 1 team even offered a 1 rd pick!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Bill Walsh called him and told him how much he likes to watch Carr play, and how much respect he has for him, and he called to tell Carr that they would be crazy to get rid of him. So you can think I am lying about that to if you would like.
Where ever he goes, it will be were God wants him to be.
And Carr is better then Jake.
Hey believe me or not, it does not bother me. I send little things out for people who acctually care to read it, we have a saying, "You dont need to lie to hang out".
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
Nothing you say means anything to anybody. You lie because you don't know how to do anything else to try and save your brothers reputation in this place. I pointed out how mathmatically 20 teams couldn't possibly want carr as their starter. Just show me how im wrong on one? I have a saying too....The hulk doth protest too much
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Well we agree that we are stuck because of that contract however I don't think the hit for this year would be enough to stop what we should try and do. ....and ummmmm
Jake was 9-2 his first year under him with a 91.2 QB rating. Ratings are not the biggest thing to me but he was 62.6 percent with 15 TDs and 7 ints in 11 games. That isn't a bad "click."
HoustonFrog
Dallas Frog
Boom goes the credibility dynamite. He'd be gone.
SamuraiSword
Waterboy
but,but,but ROMO is supposed to be a backup quarterback for his entire career!!
Why not get Sage a shot in my opinion.
So we are actually shopping Carr?? Or is that still just media propaganda??
& are we talking high first round, mid first round, or late?? Just so I can update my mock.
Ok....
Glad to hear that.
That is not the point.
Hey......... if David goes on to the 49ers(or where ever), would you still be here rooting with us for the Texans to win??
TwinSisters
Veteran
This is good news.
Because I just got through with talking to Jesus and Jesus said that Carr needs to be headed to Oakland. There's plenty of proselytizing that needs to be done there. Those black sheep have fallen on a wayward path and are in dire need of a good shepherd. Randy, Jerry, Oxhead, and Warren need some guidance... and Dave's the Man to show them the Way.
Jesus said the Texans need not worry. Kurt Warner is going to sign for a league minimum ( and he is the best lead prayer in the NFL and will bring his buddy Faulk to the shindig ).
Jesus also said he doesn't like Jake either. As snakes are normally bad for everyone all the way round.
We're not talking about 'playoffs' next year--we're talking about scoring points--avg 12 tds/yr (16 best) for 5 seasons, for example, is not going to be something that almost any body can not better...-except Carr,maybe, as he slipped to 11...
It's real simple--credible posters back up their statements. Unfortunately for you, Carr is what Carr is and you can't change that.
Think about it. What does Carr have to offer any team? For starters-just to even see what Carr can do-a team has to surround him with a 'perfect' environment. It's not only players but schemes/play calling/decision making--everything has to be in place for Carr to even try to succeed. With cap considerations, how many teams have the monies available to upgrade the personnel they'll need for Carr.
Too, teams that are already set at almost every position are more than likely settled at QB. Carr is a gamble, not a sure thing by any means, and is expensive. What will Carr give a team for $5 million that a min pay QB won't?
Bottom line for a QB is putting up wins...Houston is already entrenched as the worse 5 yr old franchise in NFL history in winning percentage, below the likes of Tampa Bay and New Orleans.
I just hope enough of your BS is factual- 1 st rd draft choice, bring it on-to get Carr to another team...