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Watson’s a top 5 qb. Do you agree?

the situation has already changed. just look at Bill OBriens record before Watson entered the fold. This team wins in spite of Bill OBrien and if they can field an average defense then they will always be contenders with Watson.

There is good reason why OBrien is purging the ranks, so that nobody can actually hold him accountable and he's dug in like an Alabama tick. Nothing to do but shrug. Make fun of him every chance you can .. and hope that Deshaun can save the offense again next year while the defense has more talent than HEB baggers and club bouncers to slow someone down. If they dont address the talent discrepancy on defense then its just negligent management and we will always be first round fodder.
 
Uncle Rico said:
the situation has already changed. just look at Bill OBriens record before Watson entered the fold. This team wins in spite of Bill OBrien and if they can field an average defense then they will always be contenders with Watson.

There is good reason why OBrien is purging the ranks, so that nobody can actually hold him accountable and he's dug in like an Alabama tick. Nothing to do but shrug. Make fun of him every chance you can .. and hope that Deshaun can save the offense again next year while the defense has more talent than HEB baggers and club bouncers to slow someone down. If they dont address the talent discrepancy on defense then its just negligent management and we will always be first round fodder.
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Did you even watch the last month of the season? DW4's part of the problem. BTW, so is BOB.
 
Marcus said:
No, Watson is not part of the problem. And leave Mahomes out of it.
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He is the best thing they have going for themselves, but that doesn't mean he can't also be part of the problem. He is, based on the fact that he can't sit there and be effective from the pocket. Any smart DC worth his salt can see this on film and can try to keep him inside where he has to scan the field and make throws. Not an easy task though. Watson is obviously very quick and fast, so it doesn't happen just because you want it to. If you can contain him there, he has shown game after game where he struggles to find the open receivers and is very vulnerable to getting strip sacked in those situations. It seems like 95% of the plays I watch Watson make are always on the run or when he gets flushed out of the pocket and is rolling out somewhere. That is a weakness he needs to work on a lot in the off season. Pocket movement and better instincts to buy time where he is more comfortable and teams can't try to force him there as a strategy.
 
Marcus said:
No, Watson is not part of the problem. And leave Mahomes out of it.
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Did I bring up Mahomes in that post?

If you think BOB's all that's wrong with DW4 then you're either 1. Blind 2. Didn't watch the last month of the season.
 
Texecutioner said:
He is the best thing they have going for themselves, but that doesn't mean he can't also be part of the problem. He is, based on the fact that he can't sit there and be effective from the pocket. Any smart DC worth his salt can see this on film and can try to keep him inside where he has to scan the field and make throws. Not an easy task though. Watson is obviously very quick and fast, so it doesn't happen just because you want it to. If you can contain him there, he has shown game after game where he struggles to find the open receivers and is very vulnerable to getting strip sacked in those situations. It seems like 95% of the plays I watch Watson make are always on the run or when he gets flushed out of the pocket and is rolling out somewhere. That is a weakness he needs to work on a lot in the off season. Pocket movement and better instincts to buy time where he is more comfortable and teams can't try to force him there as a strategy.
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It hasn't been fixed in 3 seasons, so it must not be that easy to fix.
 
Texansballer74 said:
All because he had a not so good month doesn’t mean he isn’t top 5. Shoots A. Rodgers had a down YEAR and he’s still considered to be top 5-10.
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And the Jags game/Panthers game 1st Colts game etc...

Anytime a defense keeps him in the pocket game.
 
steelbtexan said:
It hasn't been fixed in 3 seasons, so it must not be that easy to fix.
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When you account for 33 TD's in one season, you're still a very QB. He threw for like 26 TD's and ran for 7 and had around 4,000 yards. And that is only from a 3rd year starter which is very good no matter what NFL historical standard you want to find for a 3rd year QB. And he's playing with a HC that has a horrible reputation of running an offense who failed miserably with 4 QB's before Watson came in as a rookie behind an atrocious offensive line. He has to work on his passing from the pocket, but he has a lot of other attributes that make up for it for now. Pretty much every QB in the league has minor weaknesses and things they need to work on. Watson is in a very good spot in his career for a 3rd year QB.
 
Texecutioner said:
When you account for 33 TD's in one season, you're still a very QB. He threw for like 26 TD's and ran for 7 and had around 4,000 yards. And that is only from a 3rd year starter which is very good no matter what NFL historical standard you want to find for a 3rd year QB. And he's playing with a HC that has a horrible reputation of running an offense who failed miserably with 4 QB's before Watson came in as a rookie behind an atrocious offensive line. He has to work on his passing from the pocket, but he has a lot of other attributes that make up for it for now. Pretty much every QB in the league has minor weaknesses and things they need to work on. Watson is in a very good spot in his career for a 3rd year QB.
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How many seasons are you going to give him before you realize whats wrong with DW4 can't be fixed.

4-5, maybe 10?
 
steelbtexan said:
And the Jags game/Panthers game 1st Colts game etc...

Anytime a defense keeps him in the pocket game.
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Dude credit the defense for making their paychecks. And again that’s on the freaking OC. He kept killing drives right off the bat with that run up the middle crap. Then add in the penalties. Now Watson threw a couple interceptions trying to force stuff. But it’s the OC job to put his team in position to be successful. This is where OB is failing the entire offense. He has the talent but he’s not utilizing them right.
 
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Texecutioner said:
He is the best thing they have going for themselves, but that doesn't mean he can't also be part of the problem. He is, based on the fact that he can't sit there and be effective from the pocket. Any smart DC worth his salt can see this on film and can try to keep him inside where he has to scan the field and make throws. Not an easy task though. Watson is obviously very quick and fast, so it doesn't happen just because you want it to. If you can contain him there, he has shown game after game where he struggles to find the open receivers and is very vulnerable to getting strip sacked in those situations. It seems like 95% of the plays I watch Watson make are always on the run or when he gets flushed out of the pocket and is rolling out somewhere. That is a weakness he needs to work on a lot in the off season. Pocket movement and better instincts to buy time where he is more comfortable and teams can't try to force him there as a strategy.
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This is some what correct. Reason being, he has stood tall in several games in the pocket and delivered. But if these receivers can’t get open, ( something they have a big time problem with especially when Fuller is not playing). These DC are forcing Watson to stay in the pocket and keeping a spy on him. They know if he gets outside, magic tends to happen. This is where OB needs to make adjustments. Also these DC’s know the Texans usually runs on 1st down. We are so predictable. You make the stop for a very short game or a loss, it’s a win for the defense. Now on second down they know it’s a passing situation so bring the heat.
 
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steelbtexan said:
How many seasons are you going to give him before you realize whats wrong with DW4 can't be fixed.

4-5, maybe 10?
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Until the end of his career here in Houston. And that’s going be a long, long, long way off. Given the track record of finding QBs, you’re not going to do any better.

It still just boggles my mind that you have a problem with him.
 
But you aren't going to change his mind - and he doesn't have to change his mind, he is entitled to his opinion. So you can keep engaging him on the subject, and he will keep replying or you can stop. If you like engaging and not getting anywhere by all means continue, it's the off-season (already) and topics are short.
 
Marcus said:
Until the end of his career here in Houston. And that’s going be a long, long, long way off. Given the track record of finding QBs, you’re not going to do any better.

It still just boggles my mind that you have a problem with him.
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Where we disagree is I think you can find alot better. Not in the next 2-3 yrs but better. After 3 seasons he hasn't really improved and I don't expect him to improve. The best of DW4 was the 1st 7 games.

When BOB is gone and the next HC fails maybe then you will be able to see what I'm talking about.
 
Texansballer74 said:
Dude credit the defense for making their paychecks. And again that’s on the freaking OC. He kept killing drives right off the bat with that run up the middle crap. Then add in the penalties. Now Watson threw a couple interceptions trying to force stuff. But it’s the OC job to put his team in position to be successful. This is where OB is failing the entire offense. He has the talent but he’s not utilizing them right.
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I'm not saying BOB is blameless.
 
steelbtexan said:
Where we disagree is I think you can find alot better. Not in the next 2-3 yrs but better. After 3 seasons he hasn't really improved and I don't expect him to improve. The best of DW4 was the 1st 7 games.

When BOB is gone and the next HC fails maybe then you will be able to see what I'm talking about.
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What improvements are you looking for?

Now don't tell something without using data to back it up. And please don't use examples in which every quarterback struggles with.


It's almost like you're looking for perfection even when he's not in a perfect situation. So how can any QB improve in this flawed system.
 
I have watched Mahomes. I have watched Jackson. I have watched a lot of Russell Wilson. I really don't think any of them except maybe Wilson would do better here, and even that would be a modest improvement. Leave everything else the same and just swap QBs. I don't see Mahomes doing any better here. I just don't. If you do, fine. You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how stupid and/or wrong it is.
 
eriadoc said:
I have watched Mahomes. I have watched Jackson. I have watched a lot of Russell Wilson. I really don't think any of them except maybe Wilson would do better here, and even that would be a modest improvement. Leave everything else the same and just swap QBs. I don't see Mahomes doing any better here. I just don't. If you do, fine. You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how stupid and/or wrong it is.
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Eli Manning retired today. He won two super bowl titles where his defense got hot and also he got hot. But especially his defense. His final win loss record is 117-117.. You put any decent qb with an awesome defense and a good running game, he has a shot at winning a SB title. But if you put a great qb with a bad defense and no running game, he has no shot. And Im not saying Watson is a great Qb yet but to say hes a reason why this team hasn’t gone to the SB is insane.
 
stingray said:
Eli Manning retired today. He won two super bowl titles where his defense got hot and also he got hot. But especially his defense. His final win loss record is 117-117.. You put any decent qb with an awesome defense and a good running game, he has a shot at winning a SB title. But if you put a great qb with a bad defense and no running game, he has no shot. And Im not saying Watson is a great Qb yet but to say hes a reason why this team hasn’t gone to the SB is insane.
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Facts!!
 
What exactly is the issue here that certain folks have with Watson? If it’s that he holds on to the ball too long, is that it? Well, of course he does.

The real issue is why.....why.....WHY does he hold on to the ball too long?

You can’t say Watson has not been given thr right tools, scheme, coaching, or whatever to succee, and then talk out the other side of your mouth and say Watson isn’t good enough. It just invalidates your entire argument.
 
Marcus said:
What exactly is the issue here that certain folks have with Watson? If it’s that he holds on to the ball too long, is that it? Well, of course he does.

The real issue is why.....why.....WHY does he hold on to the ball too long?

You can’t say Watson has not been given thr right tools, scheme, coaching, or whatever to succee, and then talk out the other side of your mouth and say Watson isn’t good enough. It just invalidates your entire argument.
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Three members are very adamant about him holding onto the ball too long. They don’t think he’s progressing at all. And finally they thinks he can’t read these defenses consistently.

I disagree of course.
 
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Texansballer74 said:
Three members are very adamant about him holding to the ball too long. They don’t think he’s progressing at all. And finally they thinks he can’t read these defenses consistently.

I disagree of course.
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I think there's more than 3 -- I'm one of them too. I'm also in the camp that thinks he's not progressing as he should -- I actually think he regressed some at the end of the season. But I'm also in the camp that thinks that none of this would be happening with a better scheme which is coaching. Whatever BOB is teaching needs to 'click' next year and Watson and his receivers need to be on the same page so he can process quicker, or we're screwed unless BOB changes things radically or gets canned.
 
Texansballer74 said:
What improvements are you looking for?

Now don't tell something without using data to back it up. And please don't use examples in which every quarterback struggles with.


It's almost like you're looking for perfection even when he's not in a perfect situation. So how can any QB improve in this flawed system.
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Tell me what in his game has changed since his rookie yr? Is he better at reading the blitz? Has he learned to consistently throw the ball accurately. Has his pocket presence improved? Accuracy? Anticipation?

Or does he still run around behind the OL after being well protected looking for the big or lucky play? He looks confused as he** to me.

But hey, he's the best the Texans have ever had so let's do this another decade.
 
steelbtexan said:
Tell me what in his game has changed since his rookie yr? Is he better at reading the blitz? Has he learned to consistently throw the ball accurately. Has his pocket presence improved? Accuracy? Anticipation?

Or does he still run around behind the OL after being well protected looking for the big or lucky play? He looks confused as he** to me.

But hey, he's the best the Texans have ever had so let's do this another decade.
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Could this be just a case where you don’t have Rick Smith to kick around anymore, so you need a new punching bag to latch onto.
 
steelbtexan said:
Tell me what in his game has changed since his rookie yr? Is he better at reading the blitz? Has he learned to consistently throw the ball accurately. Has his pocket presence improved? Accuracy? Anticipation?

Or does he still run around behind the OL after being well protected looking for the big or lucky play? He looks confused as he** to me.

But hey, he's the best the Texans have ever had so let's do this another decade.
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His accuracy has improved. His pocket awareness has to improve no doubt but let's not act like the line always done there jobs and receivers created enough separation or coaching schemed his skill players open. It's been posted on here. As far anticipation is concerned receivers needs to consistently do there jobs. Offensive line has to clean up their acts. That way he could have those windows to throw in. You need to learn to factor in all parts of the equation. Ask yourself why verses trying to stick it to a player you clearly doesn't like.
 
Texansballer74 said:
His accuracy has improved. His pocket awareness has to improve no doubt but let's not act like the line always done there jobs and receivers created enough separation or coaching schemed his skill players open. It's been posted on here. As far anticipation is concerned receivers needs to consistently do there jobs. Offensive line has to clean up their acts. That way he could have those windows to throw in. You need to learn to factor in all parts of the equation. Ask yourself why verses trying to stick it to a player you clearly doesn't like.
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Not near enough

The rest is a bunch of deflections and excuses that have gotten old after almost 3 years.
 
People keep talking about receivers not getting open and they aren’t but there is more to that than just the scheme. I will agree Watson has become much better at reading and avoiding the blitz to the point it’s dangerous to blitz him. So what did teams do, they started doing what Corrosion said and sending 4 blitzers to try and keep him in the pocket and dropped 7 back knowing Watson will at some point scramble and can’t throw guys open.

The reason our offense looks so different with Fuller on the field is because he is the only receiver that can create separation. Hopkins has never been good at creating separation, that’s not his thing and never will be. What he does is beat the guy(s) that are covering him which is great but it does mean you have to put it on the dot to give him the best chance and if he is doubled it’s often not worth it to try.

Where I blame the scheme is it doesn’t seem to use the middle of the field much, lots of plays where there is just flat out nobody on either on offense or defenses there so that allowed defenders to group up and receivers trip over each other. This is compounded by the fact Watson doesn’t throw guys open because you pretty much can’t while scrambling. That’s the advantage a pocket passer has over a duel threat, they focus on putting the pass right on the dot.

The reason people say Mahomes is so good is because he has shown he can throw guys open like a pocket passer while extending the play like a duel threat. Even in and coming out of college there were concerns about Watson’s arm strength and accuracy. That’s not to say he can’t hit a receiver, even while scrambling, but there is a difference between hitting a 6 foot man and throwing a ball through a tire 30 yards away. Issue is OBs schemes more require hitting that tire, that’s why he prefers pocket passers, than it does hitting the man while running
 
Marcus said:
(sign) I knew it wouldn’t be long before you once again started acting like you’re the smartest person in the room. I’m out.
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I'm not the smartest man in the room at all.

Point out what I said about DW4 that's inaccurate instead of making a post like this.

What has he improved upon out of the things I listed.
 
Texansballer74 said:
He’s stuck on his observation as well his strong dislike for Watson. Now if this was someone he wanted, his observations would only be positive.
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Care to expound on how the heck you came up with this. Who have I ever been this way with? Nobody, that's who.

You just cant refute my post so you're just pulling crap out of your butt.

After the Chiefs game for instance I posted 51-7 it's time to clean house.
 
steelbtexan said:
Care to expound on how the heck you came up with this. Who have I ever been this way with? Nobody, that's who.

You just cant refute my post so you're just pulling crap out of your butt.

After the Chiefs game for instance I posted 51-7 it's time to clean house.
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If we had the quarterback of your choice you would not be giving him the same freaking treatment you give Watson. You most definitely wouldn't have called the S word.

Example: the offensive line.

They made some moves you like so you're not cutting it down like you did before. Your last comment on them was they improved a lot . Bump the fact that they have a lot of negatives going on with that unit.
 
Texansballer74 said:
If we had the quarterback of your choice you would not be giving him the same freaking treatment you give Watson. You most definitely wouldn't have called the S word.

Example: the offensive line.

They made some moves you like so you're not cutting it down like you did before. Your last comment on them was they improved a lot . Bump the fact that they have a lot of negatives going on with that u seenit.
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You're right, the QB of my choice in that draft was Mahomes and I wouldn't be as critical of him because he has progressed into a true superstar. Unlike what DW4 has done despite what many here think. The Texans have a slightly above avg young QB that seems to have topped out.


U was critical of the Howard pick and my thoughts on him changed as he improved once he moved to RT. I've often said the IL isn't as good as it's talent level says it should be and Devlin should be fired. So you're FOS on this point.

BTW, I called for BOB to be fired after 51-7 so I'm beginning to think you have DW4DS disease.
 
For everyone arguing that we should give up on Watson, I am curious to hear your solutions? Who exactly do you think we are going to replace him with? Who do you actually think we could get in the draft or trade for? Of all the people I am reading who have given up on him, I am not hearing many solutions.
 
RGV82 said:
For everyone arguing that we should give up on Watson, I am curious to hear your solutions? Who exactly do you think we are going to replace him with? Who do you actually think we could get in the draft or trade for? Of all the people I am reading who have given up on him, I am not hearing many solutions.
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Thats my million dollar question. They thiink this is Fantasy football where they can just hit up their buddy and trade a Watson for Russell Wilson straight up. Some mentioned Burrows, but nobody has any idea if Cinci would even go for a trade like that. And even if you do, are you willing to gamble on a guy who just proved it for one year in college?

And if you do trade him for a top pick and a rookie qb, how long is it going to take for these lazyboy experts to already decide that hes not the guy like they have with Watson? Six games? One year? Two years? Reminds me of people who like the new car smell and trade in their car every two years They don’t need a new car but they just want the new feel of it.
 
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stingray said:
Thats my million dollar question. They thiink this is Fantasy football where they can just hit up their buddy and trade a Watson for Russell Wilson straight up. Some mentioned Burrows, but nobody has any idea if Cinci would even go for a trade like that. And even if you do, are you willing to gamble on a guy who just proved it for one year in college?

And if you do trade him for a top pick and a rookie qb, how long is it going to take for these lazyboy experts to already decide that hes not the guy like they have with Watson? Six games? One year? Two years? Reminds me of people who like the new car smell and trade in their car every two years They don’t need a new car but they just want the new feel if it.
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So far Watson has a 24-13 record with us, 101.0 QBR, with 3 playoff appearances, in just over 2 seasons. All this with a weak defense and poor coaching. I would be surprised if anyone can find another QB with those credentials in his first 2-3 seasons, and was released by his team. Watson is going nowhere and deserves to be here.
 
RGV82 said:
So far Watson has a 24-13 record with us, 101.0 QBR, with 3 playoff appearances, in just over 2 seasons. All this with a weak defense and poor coaching. I would be surprised if anyone can find another QB with those credentials in his first 2-3 seasons, and was released by his team. Watson is going nowhere and deserves to be here.
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Imagine if we would have a stud like Allen or Tannehill. Not bad for a game manager. :stirpot:
 
RGV82 said:
For everyone arguing that we should give up on Watson, I am curious to hear your solutions? Who exactly do you think we are going to replace him with? Who do you actually think we could get in the draft or trade for? Of all the people I am reading who have given up on him, I am not hearing many solutions.
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stingray said:
Thats my million dollar question. They thiink this is Fantasy football where they can just hit up their buddy and trade a Watson for Russell Wilson straight up. Some mentioned Burrows, but nobody has any idea if Cinci would even go for a trade like that. And even if you do, are you willing to gamble on a guy who just proved it for one year in college?

And if you do trade him for a top pick and a rookie qb, how long is it going to take for these lazyboy experts to already decide that hes not the guy like they have with Watson? Six games? One year? Two years? Reminds me of people who like the new car smell and trade in their car every two years They don’t need a new car but they just want the new feel of it.
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There is an entire thread about this so maybe go check it out, there are some really well crafted and thought out strategies in there. Yes you can make the case of "We don't know if X would agree to that" no we sure don't but the same can be applied to the "2020 HC candidates" and the "2020 Free Agents" threads so that's a weak argument. Also the only person you might could say has "given up" on Watson is Steel and to be fair he wasn't very high on him to begin with.

Some of you seem to have trouble with the "what if" way of thinking or at least a "what if" that you don't agree with or like. That's fine but just realize that not every conversation is centered around "we should do this and do this right now" like the fire OB conversations tend to become. No Watson isn't going anywhere, everyone knows that and most everyone agrees with that but news flash OB isn't going any where either and if you think its a sure thing that OB will go before Watson does you haven't been paying attention the last 6 years.
 
maverick512000 said:
No Watson isn't going anywhere, everyone knows that and most everyone agrees with that but news flash OB isn't going any where either and if you think its a sure thing that OB will go before Watson does you haven't been paying attention the last 6 years.
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I really have not seen anyone imply this or say this. Also, my only point really comes down to optimism vs. realism. I am not criticizing people for being optimistic about the best case scenario for our QBing situation, I am simply pointing out that realistically, there is no better option now, and it could be a lot worse.
 
RGV82 said:
I really have not seen anyone imply this or say this. Also, my only point really comes down to optimism vs. realism. I am not criticizing people for being optimistic about the best case scenario for our QBing situation, I am simply pointing out that realistically, there is no better option now, and it could be a lot worse.
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I'm going to assume you mean within the Texans org because if you mean on these forums then you really haven't been reading what people have been saying. To your other point I understand about realistically and again I agree with you but the people theory crafting know this to. No one expects Cinni to be willing to give up the number 1 or even Miami to give up their picks but that's where the "what if" part comes in. I don't know if you've been around here during an off season but it gets very long and topics in short supply. Since we don't have a first round pick it will be even longer and topics in even shorter supply. Even the most rabid of the hate OB crew get tired of just making the same post in the same thread so the wild scenarios keep things a bit interesting.

Again no one believes we would be willing to trade Watson and even if we were the price range is all over the place. Its just a way to try and fill the football boredom that is the Texans off season.
 
maverick512000 said:
I'm going to assume you mean within the Texans org because if you mean on these forums then you really haven't been reading what people have been saying. To your other point I understand about realistically and again I agree with you but the people theory crafting know this to. No one expects Cinni to be willing to give up the number 1 or even Miami to give up their picks but that's where the "what if" part comes in. I don't know if you've been around here during an off season but it gets very long and topics in short supply. Since we don't have a first round pick it will be even longer and topics in even shorter supply. Even the most rabid of the hate OB crew get tired of just making the same post in the same thread so the wild scenarios keep things a bit interesting.

Again no one believes we would be willing to trade Watson and even if we were the price range is all over the place. Its just a way to try and fill the football boredom that is the Texans off season.
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I've brought up all types of scenarios for this team or that team to trade for the Burrows pick. I just don't want to see the kid end up on the Bengals.
 
maverick512000 said:
I'm going to assume you mean within the Texans org because if you mean on these forums then you really haven't been reading what people have been saying. To your other point I understand about realistically and again I agree with you but the people theory crafting know this to. No one expects Cinni to be willing to give up the number 1 or even Miami to give up their picks but that's where the "what if" part comes in. I don't know if you've been around here during an off season but it gets very long and topics in short supply. Since we don't have a first round pick it will be even longer and topics in even shorter supply. Even the most rabid of the hate OB crew get tired of just making the same post in the same thread so the wild scenarios keep things a bit interesting.

Again no one believes we would be willing to trade Watson and even if we were the price range is all over the place. Its just a way to try and fill the football boredom that is the Texans off season.
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I have been a Texans fan since 2002, but only on this forum for several weeks. You can not expect me to know everything that has been said on this forum in its entirety. I go based on the interactions I have with people and the threads that I have read so far, and most the fans in real life that I have known since 2002. If you think my posts are somewhat ignorant, oh well. Not much I can do. You can not expect me to read the history of this entire forum. I base my opinions based on who I talk to and what I read, and the people I have talked to in real life for the past 18 years. If you aren't happy with that, not much I can do.
 
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