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Patriots Fined: Camera confiscated after claims of Pats spying on Jets

gjmac2 said:
Your exactly right. That argument would not work in getting out of a speeding ticket.

That argument also did not work in this case either. Belichek was caught, and he and the Patriots have been punished.

My point that there is to much, IMO, fake shock and astonishment that an NFL team would stoop to cheating to get an advantage. To me, some of people commenting on this are casting stones while living in glass houses.
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The astonishment comes from it being the patriots, the closest thing to a modern day dynasty in the NFL & current superbowl favorites. It's also the whole "world class organization" tag that has been given to them. In other words, Most people would probably guess they'd be the last ones to cheat, or at least get caught doing it.

I agree it's overblown a tad bit but hey, doesn't the media do this to almost everything?
 
infantrycak said:
Have you tried out that argument with the cop when he pulls you over for speeding. Good luck to you.
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Yes I have. Got stopped one time and was asked why I was speeding and I siad because I have not seen a cop on this road in over 9 months so I thougt what the hell.



He let me go with a warning.
 
infantrycak said:
Have you tried out that argument with the cop when he pulls you over for speeding. Good luck to you.
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No doubt about it. The Pats got caught and will pay a steep price.

But the way some folks act, you get caught speeding and they want to take away your car, suspend your license, and fine you $50,000.00.

Bringing Vick into this discussion is not even a weak arguments. It's apples and oranges to compare killing dogs for a blood sport with anything of this nature. Lame.
 
Double Barrel said:
It's not about teams stealing each others signals. It's about the Patriots violating the rule book that specifically mentions video cameras. I'm fine with the punishment fitting the violation in the NFL's eyes.

It's a very interesting sociology study to watch the witch hunt among media and fans, though. I've heard some pretty angry demands as harsh as a lifetime ban on Belichick. It's like the dude killed their kitten or something.
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No kidding!

All this holier-than-thou sanctimonious 'uproar' is pretty silly if you ask me.

Belichick has always been somewhat of a maverick to the league. Something that was mentioned on the NFL network, is that every off-season, Belichick pushes rule changes to the Competition Committee, especially rule changes to ones that he considers obsolete, or ineffective, given today's environment.

And if he doesn't get his way, he has been known to "create the situation" that forces the issue, leading them to adopt the change that he's requesting. It will be very interesting to see what, if any, changes are made to rules regarding video cameras.

Belichick is one sly dog.
 
Vinny said:
lol at this thread (I haven't read it till now)...funny, sad and obnoxious all in one place. nice
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If you don't mind taking the time Vinny, what do you find funny, what do you find sad, and what do you find obnoxious?

Just curious, that's all . . . am interested in your take.
 
gjmac2 said:
In what way? Please, enlighten us with your brillance, oh mighty sage!

:confused:
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The patriots were caught trying to get an edge stealing signals...all teams do this and coaches know this because they cover their mouths when they speak on the sidelines. The Pats took it one step further but they got caught and they are being punished. The Pats got a really stiff punishment but some fans want "the death penalty".....and they seem serious about it. Some of this reaction is hilarious...but then I see that people are serious about some of what they are posting...then it turns sadly obnoxious that people think like this...jmo.
 
Vinny said:
The patriots were caught trying to get an edge stealing signals...all teams do this and coaches know this because they cover their mouths when they speak on the sidelines. The Pats took it one step further but they got caught and they are being punished. The Pats got a really stiff punishment but some fans want "the death penalty".....and they seem serious about it. Some of this reaction is hilarious...but then I see that people are serious about some of what they are posting...then it turns sadly obnoxious that people think like this...jmo.
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I agree 100%, I mean if Bill would have gotten a few games to go along with it I would have had no issue either.
 
I do wonder if some journalist out there will begin reviewing film or tape of games last year and/or in preceeding seasons to try and fan the flames higher.

I wonder what everyone here would think if that should happen. Say that this continues to spin up instead of winding down and somebody out there produces film (we're speaking hypothetical here, keep that in mind) of this same guy doing this two years ago or in a Super Bowl (or two) and whips the public into a bigger stink than they are now. What does the NFL do then?

I'm just asking because I see this as one of those things that can flare up and get out of control very quickly and I think the NFL would like to close the book on it as fast as they can now that they've handed out their punishment.

What if it doesn't go away?
 
Vinny said:
The patriots were caught trying to get an edge stealing signals...all teams do this and coaches know this because they cover their mouths when they speak on the sidelines. The Pats took it one step further but they got caught and they are being punished. The Pats got a really stiff punishment but some fans want "the death penalty".....and they seem serious about it. Some of this reaction is hilarious...but then I see that people are serious about some of what they are posting...then it turns sadly obnoxious that people think like this...jmo.
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I stand corrected. Good post.
 
Hervoyel said:
I do wonder if some journalist out there will begin reviewing film or tape of games last year and/or in preceeding seasons to try and fan the flames higher.

I wonder what everyone here would think if that should happen. Say that this continues to spin up instead of winding down and somebody out there produces film (we're speaking hypothetical here, keep that in mind) of this same guy doing this two years ago or in a Super Bowl (or two) and whips the public into a bigger stink than they are now. What does the NFL do then?

I'm just asking because I see this as one of those things that can flare up and get out of control very quickly and I think the NFL would like to close the book on it as fast as they can now that they've handed out their punishment.

What if it doesn't go away?
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When OJ went on trial all those gossip rags started looking thru their archives for pictures of OJ with those rare shoes on...I can see the press trying to whip the fans into a frenzy...they sell more mags, more advertising and make more money when the fans are whipped up and mindless.
 
Hervoyel said:
I do wonder if some journalist out there will begin reviewing film or tape of games last year and/or in preceeding seasons to try and fan the flames higher.

I wonder what everyone here would think if that should happen. Say that this continues to spin up instead of winding down and somebody out there produces film (we're speaking hypothetical here, keep that in mind) of this same guy doing this two years ago or in a Super Bowl (or two) and whips the public into a bigger stink than they are now. What does the NFL do then?

I'm just asking because I see this as one of those things that can flare up and get out of control very quickly and I think the NFL would like to close the book on it as fast as they can now that they've handed out their punishment.

What if it doesn't go away?
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Players still have to make plays. I saw Randy Moss covered by THREE guys last week and he still burned them. No amount of signal stealing is going to change the fact that Tom Brady is a great QB and Moss can be a great WR when he applies himself.

There are some truly myopic perspectives out there, and I think most of it is born from jealousy of the Patriots' success. If this had been the Cleveland Browns getting caught, I doubt it'd even be a front page story, much less the feeding frenzy currently going on.
 
I get that DB, I'm just wondering whether or not the NFL will find itself in a position where it almost has to overreact to the charges. I think it's a possibility. Right or wrong lots of fans seem to feel like the Patriots got off a little light (I believe it was just about right myself, maybe a tad cheap on the money) and if the press can prove (or even just come close to proving) that the Patriots have been doing this for years then a lot of those fans are going to go even more ape about it.
 
Oh, I don't disagree with you, Herv. (I was just piggy-backing your points.)

This situation could easily develop into a bigger feeding frenzy if the media keeps whipping up the masses into hysteria.
 
Interesting story for comparisons sake:

PARIS - The McLaren team was fined US$100 million and stripped of all of its points in the constructors' standings Thursday in the spy scandal that has rocked the sport.

The case broke open in July when a 780-page technical dossier on Ferrari cars was found at the home of McLaren's chief designer, Mike Coughlan, who was later suspended. Ferrari mechanic Nigel Stepney, who allegedly supplied the documents, was fired.
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Link

I wonder if they did the Dr. Evil voice when they announced the fine.
 
Nobody likes a cheater, period. They should be punished for breaking a rule, period. Yeah everyone does it in some form, but he went too far with it & got caught. What they got was a little harsh IMO, but Gooddell has set the precedent of being heavy handed with his punishments this off-season so it's only fair that he be the same way with them.
 
Mr teX said:
Nobody likes a cheater, period. They should be punished for breaking a rule, period. Yeah everyone does it in some form, but he went too far with it & got caught. What they got was a little harsh IMO, but Gooddell has set the precedent of being heavy handed with his punishments this off-season so it's only fair that he be the same way with them.
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I agree Mr. Tex... Good post.
 
Mr teX said:
Nobody likes a cheater, period. They should be punished for breaking a rule, period. Yeah everyone does it in some form, but he went too far with it & got caught. What they got was a little harsh IMO, but Gooddell has set the precedent of being heavy handed with his punishments this off-season so it's only fair that he be the same way with them.
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I swear I will find a small animation of a smiley being run over by a bus.

Goddell has a huge bus and he has a lead foot.
 
Mark my word . . This WILL lead to a rule change that will allow all teams to use video cameras on the other teams, IMO is just what Belichick wanted. You can't stuff the technology genie back in the bottle.

The only reason why they got caught, was that the ***** was using a video camera large enough to be noticed.

Next time, they'll use their cell phones. You can't get away from it.
 
Marcus said:
Mark my word . . This WILL lead to a rule change that will allow all teams to use video cameras on the other teams, IMO is just what Belichick wanted. You can't stuff the technology genie back in the bottle.

The only reason why they got caught, was that the ***** was using a video camera large enough to be noticed.

Next time, they'll use their cell phones. You can't get away from it.
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And I believe that, although it faltered with the NFL committee this past offseason, this will be what gets comm gear for the D-Coordinator and middle linebacker/defensive captain to go through for the 08 season.

My $0.02
 
Exithios said:
And I believe that, although it faltered with the NFL committee this past offseason, this will be what gets comm gear for the D-Coordinator and middle linebacker/defensive captain to go through for the 08 season.

My $0.02
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i agree, i never understood why the QB & O-coordinator could get that but the D captain & D coordinator couldn't.
 
Wade Wilson says punishments inconsistent

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3019472

"
To me, they're holding the organization accountable instead of the person." On Sept. 1, the NFL suspended Wilson for five games and fined him $100,000 -- nearly a third of his salary as an assistant coach. Wilson, who has suffered from diabetes for 24 years, admitted he purchased medication -- believed to be HGH -- banned by the league's substance abuse policy, although he said he did not know the rule applied to coaches as well as players. Wilson did so while working as an assistant coach for the Chicago Bears and turned over phone records and credit card receipts in a seemingly successful attempt to convince the league he was taking them for his own personal benefit and not distributing them to players
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Marcus said:
Mark my word . . This WILL lead to a rule change that will allow all teams to use video cameras on the other teams, IMO is just what Belichick wanted. You can't stuff the technology genie back in the bottle.

The only reason why they got caught, was that the ***** was using a video camera large enough to be noticed.

Next time, they'll use their cell phones. You can't get away from it.
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If there is any rule change it will be to having radios on the D like the QB's had. 22 owners voted for it last year so they were only 2 short.

You have to be joking about cell phones--no way they have the resolution to get the job done.
 
Marcus said:
No kidding!

All this holier-than-thou sanctimonious 'uproar' is pretty silly if you ask me.

Belichick has always been somewhat of a maverick to the league. Something that was mentioned on the NFL network, is that every off-season, Belichick pushes rule changes to the Competition Committee, especially rule changes to ones that he considers obsolete, or ineffective, given today's environment.

And if he doesn't get his way, he has been known to "create the situation" that forces the issue, leading them to adopt the change that he's requesting. It will be very interesting to see what, if any, changes are made to rules regarding video cameras.

Belichick is one sly dog.
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The video recording is only one facet of this. A bigger issue in my view is the radio frequency discrepancy that was initially reported, coupled with Dr. Z's reports about radio problems in Foxboro for opposing teams. There should be a continued investigation into this. I don't know if there will be--this whole ruling looks to me like Goodell trying to nip it in the bud and whitewash the whole thing. The NFL wouldn't really benefit from a deeper disclosure of espionage techniques if, in fact, there is more to the story.
 
HoustonFrog said:
Wade Wilson says punishments inconsistent

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3019472

"
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I find it far worse that a coach is purchasing hgh than a team trying to steal signals. There is no decent test for hgh as far as I know. I used to get my roids via a strength coach from a College football team back in the early 80's so I think the NFL is spot on coming down as hard as they did on the Coach for hgh. Ignorance is never a good excuse when you break the rules. A lot of hgh users become diabetics because it is common practice to inject insulin when taking hgh....this may be a chicken and egg thing with the Coach.
 
If it were up to me the radio would come out of the quarterbacks helmet and the various teams would be forced to either shuttle plays in and out with personnel or signal them in like they did in the old days. Back then we had better quarterbacks (I believe) and the good ones were like offensive coordinators on the field.

Getting caught with a camera would be a one year suspension for any team that was caught doing it and the forfeit of the game it was used in.

That's how I feel about it. I know that won't happen and I even know that maybe it shouldn't happen but it's the way I like to think of NFL football. It's the way I like to imagine it to be and I know that there are many, many fans who feel the exact same way.

I think it's a reflection of the fans perception of football being a game/sport and it also being a business. I've been watching NFL football for all of my adult life. I started watching it when I was in elementary school. I was raised on it and from an early age I bought into the illusion. I was able to suspend my disbelief and think of it only as a game. Today there are too many things going on that get in the way of that illusion.

But make no mistake, I understand that what I want to see is probably not the best thing for business and without the business the game doesn't exist.
 
Vinny said:
I find it far worse that a coach is purchasing hgh than a team trying to steal signals. There is no decent test for hgh as far as I know. I used to get my roids via a strength coach from a College football team back in the early 80's so I think the NFL is spot on coming down as hard as they did on the Coach for hgh. Ignorance is never a good excuse when you break the rules. A lot of hgh users become diabetics because it is common practice to inject insulin when taking hgh....this may be a chicken and egg thing with the Coach.
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Well, they both point to "Integrity of the Game" issues.

I feel the opposite way that you do. To me it's more of "Active" vs. "Passive" cheating. While it's within the realm of possibility that Wilson was actually buying the HGH for himself (who the hell cares if HE's on roids or not), there is no other reason to spy on signals, if not to benefit your team...possibly during THAT game.

I too think Belichick is a very good coach and Brady is an excellent QB, but think about this... Isn't that a circular argument if the Offense knows what the Defense is doing? Wouldn't that have the potential to MAKE you Good when you're really not?
 
So.. are spies ALWAYS cheaters??? :spy:

Reminds me of something said back when Electronic Surveillance was in its infancy.. like 1910... “Gentlemen do not read each other’s mail”….


By the way, its ironic that this guy happens to be a BIG Patriots fan...

liddy-lookin-up.jpg


I'm surprised that the Commish didn't say anything about the extra radio equipment found in the Patriots gear. All Roger talked about was video cams...

Bugs were planted.. but where? Coaches Box, Sideline, Jets lockeroom??? I'm curious...

By the way, SIGINT gives you much more data than IMINT..
 
the problem is that with technology improving daily you have to nip the problem at the bud now. if a coach has good enough eyes and ears where he can pick up some things to key on, that is just good coaching but if you are using magnification, microphones, or other technology you need to be punished harshly. The technology is just too readily available to be abused.

goodell should have levied a heavier price to pay as far as draft picks but I guarantee you that the next team that is caught doing it will be punished severely. I think they should have lost both their extra picks. 1st and 3rd round and Bill DEFINITELY needed to be suspended for a game..that would have sent a better message. Goodell went light but don't expect it next time. I think any subsequent violation by Bill or any other coaching staff will be punished much more harshly.
 
The Patriots should've had to forfeit the game to the Jets, and Belicheat should've been suspended for 4 more games, with no contact between him and his team allowed during that time.
 
I found this article interesting, because the issue is not about stealing signals. It is solely how the Patriots did it.

Jaguars coach Jack Del Rio believes stealing signals in football happens as routinely as it does in baseball.

It's just not supposed to include videotape.

"It's quite obvious that when you're signalling defensively, the other bench is like a guy on second base," Del Rio said Wednesday. "If the pitcher or catcher is giving away signals, then he can relay things. But that's part of the game. You're not talking about having a camera set up on the centre-field fence that you're looking and shooting the catcher's signals and then studying that before you go play that opponent.

"That's a different issue. Do we look at each other's sidelines and look for hints at what might be coming? Sure. I think all teams do that. That's been going on forever. That will continue to be part of our game."
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Source
 
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