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Week 6 trade deadline (TJ)

I lay the Wand problem on Kubiak. Something happened when Wand was released. Kubiak seems to get down on people, for example Morency, and he doesn't let go. I think many thought Morency was better than Lundy and blocking better than Lundy. Morency was let go and had been on Kubiak's xxxt list for whatever reason. The same is true of Wand and I said I didn't think he would be back because of it. That so far has been one of things that I have been very disappointed in with Kubiak.
 
Cheroqui said:
Should we try to get TJ Duckett from Washington? I only ask because I think we should have a pounder like him and Washington isn't using him so why not. Other than our D stopping the run, and tightening up on pass defense that's the only missing piece IMO to have a more complete setup and get wins after things fall in place. We can also rotate with Jameel Cook. So once we get a HB to step up and hopefully be able to catch out of the backfield it may help. Good move or why bother?
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No, we need to get Morency back. Duckett is the same as Dayne and Gado.
 
Hervoyel said:
The idea that this coaching staff refuses to bring back a player who almost started for them this year (according to their version of events) makes me concerned. When Spencer went down someone on the sideline (Gary Kubiak) should have spoken into his headset to someone upstairs and said "While you're at it see if we still have Seth Wands phone number somewhere".

The fact that this obviously didn't happen makes Gary Kubiak look arrogant to me.
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Making a critical judgment like this, most probably without knowing all of the relevant information, might seem arrogant to some.

Ibar_Harry said:
I lay the Wand problem on Kubiak. Something happened when Wand was released. Kubiak seems to get down on people, for example Morency, and he doesn't let go. I think many thought Morency was better than Lundy and blocking better than Lundy. Morency was let go and had been on Kubiak's xxxt list for whatever reason. The same is true of Wand and I said I didn't think he would be back because of it. That so far has been one of things that I have been very disappointed in with Kubiak.
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Or perhaps, lacking evidence to the contrary, you might consider that there may be a reason that a coach of Kubiak's experience and stature felt it necessary to cut ties with these players.

People seem quick to defend players who have been in the league a very short time like Wand and Morency, but can't give a coach who has been in the league for years, and has a good reputation, the benefit of the doubt?

Surely you agree that you don't know the whole story.

I may be wrong, but I'll stack my chips with the HC on these moves.
 
mexican_texan said:
...perhaps...or perhaps the linemen sucked.
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Some of them maybe. But then why couldn't Weary get into serious contention before and now is considered a key backup and probable future guard. Or maybe the linemen sucked due to bad decisions like bringing in Wade for a fat contract, Riley, etc. Or maybe bad decisions like converting a guard to a center who plays much better at guard. Or dancing a player back and forth from guard to tackle. There are definitely talent levels involved but coaching seems like an abyss of talent on this issue.
 
I think the root of the problem was keeping McKinney at C. The line played much better when McKinney played G, for those two or three games.
 
michaelm said:
Or perhaps, lacking evidence to the contrary, you might consider that there may be a reason that a coach of Kubiak's experience and stature felt it necessary to cut ties with these players.

People seem quick to defend players who have been in the league a very short time like Wand and Morency, but can't give a coach who has been in the league for years, and has a good reputation, the benefit of the doubt?

Surely you agree that you don't know the whole story.

I may be wrong, but I'll stack my chips with the HC on these moves.
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I usually tend to agree that the HC knows best, but in the case of Wand and our runningbacks... something doesn't smell right. Maybe I just have baggage left over from Capers. I'm afraid that these questionable personnel moves are going to be the reason we start the "Fire Kubiak Club" in a few years.
 
I also read somewhere on this board that they are "quietly" bringing in players to tryout for LT. If this is true, doesn't it seem kinda sneaky?
 
TheOgre said:
I know this sounds insane, but why not bring Seth Wand back (if he is available) to back up Salaam? He knows the offense and would be better than a backup guard as our LT.
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[[Gary Kubiak]];460347 said:
Now it really does not make sense why we cut out pre season starting LT. Bedell > Wand ............ I dont know.
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[[Gary Kubiak]];459138 said:
Forget it, Lets stuff PITTS at LT!!!!!!!

That is it! Weary gets Pitt's LG.
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Chance_C said:
Wonder why they are dead set against doing that?
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AggieTexanFan said:
Where is the Caveman in all of this, surely I thought he would step in?
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mexican_texan said:
He is raw enough as a rookie, and then he was moved to RT. He may get some snaps at LT, but not many, I would say.
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1) Because the coaches cut Wand and they aren't going to change their minds no matter what.

2) Because the coaches said Pitts is a guard and they aren't going to change their minds no matter what.

3) Because the coaches said Winston is a right tackle and they aren't going to change their minds no matter what.


Or in a word: stubborness. Some people say give the coaches a free pass because they are new and the experts, but they do seem to have a trend developing. That trend has led to Bedell playing at left tackle for us against a very strong pass rusher. The trend isn't just at left tackle but LT is the most obvious.

In addition, their interest in multi-role players and players they've had before seems detrimental to the team. I was very high on these coaches when they came in; I'd like to see them meet expectations too. I think they've done a fine job with Carr and some of the other aspects of the team, but I'd like to see them fix their own performance as they go along and become better coaches and the Texans a better team because of it.
 
Kubiak has been interviewed as saying that the bye-week is a time for introspection by the coaches. They look at what has been done right and wrong and where improvement can be made. My only hope is that they turn that magnifying glass back on themselves while honing in on the LT. Trust Sherman. Bring Wand back in and end all this sturm und drang at that position.
 
OSQ said:
Trust Sherman. Bring Wand back in and end all this sturm und drang at that position.
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If they brought Wand back in...How would that work salary wise ?? I'm not to familar with how the salary rules apply in the NFL....Isn't part of his salary still counting against us ?? and If we brought him back does that salary still count against us, plus his new salary? Does he even get a new salary or do they just pick back up where he left off ?

If Kubiak felt strongly enough to cut his once starting LT I doubt he brings him back anyhow...Would Wand want to come back ? Only to be cut again next year....
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
If they brought Wand back in...How would that work salary wise ?? I'm not to familar with how the salary rules apply in the NFL....Isn't part of his salary still counting against us ?? and If we brought him back does that salary still count against us, plus his new salary? Does he even get a new salary or do they just pick back up where he left off ?

If Kubiak felt strongly enough to cut his once starting LT I doubt he brings him back anyhow...Would Wand want to come back ? Only to be cut again next year....
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Assuming that Kubiak does the right thing and brings back Wand...

It's likely they will sign him to a 1 year contract. Wand will have a fair to good season at LT. Since Winston and Spencer are the future at tackle, it's doubtful that Wand gets an offer for 2007.

If I were Wand, I wouldn't accept a new contract for 2007 anyway, since we have demonstrated a lack of commitment to him.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
If they brought Wand back in...How would that work salary wise ?? I'm not to familar with how the salary rules apply in the NFL....Isn't part of his salary still counting against us ?? and If we brought him back does that salary still count against us, plus his new salary? Does he even get a new salary or do they just pick back up where he left off ?
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Wand was on a RFA non-guaranteed contract with no signing bonus. He isn't on the cap at all right now. They could bring him in for league minimum for a 4th year player--I think $540k.
 
He was getting the minimum tender when he got cut. 720K or so. If he would re-sign, the four year vet minimum is $450K or so, so he would be cheaper than if he had never been cut.

After that anything could happen. He might fail. He might shock the coaches and impress them and get a good offer from the Texans. Most likely he generates some good game tape and goes to another team because he isn't in the Texans' long term plans.


Edit: My numbers are estimates from memory. I'm in the ballpark, but if someone else has more exact numbers, believe them.
 
infantrycak said:
Wand was on a RFA non-guaranteed contract with no signing bonus. He isn't on the cap at all right now. They could bring him in for league minimum for a 4th year player--I think $540k.
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Runner said:
He was getting the minimum tender when he got cut. 720K or so. If he would re-sign, the four year vet minimum is $450K or so, so he would be cheaper than if he had never been cut.
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ehhh....That doesn't sound like a situation where Wand would want to come back to....To go from starting to cut....then to be asked back....I dunno...and then on top of that they would probably offer him less...

I wonder why he hasn't caught on with another team already...
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
ehhh....That doesn't sound like a situation where Wand would want to come back to....To go from starting to cut....then to be asked back....I dunno...and then on top of that they would probably offer him less...

I wonder why he hasn't caught on with another team already...
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Well, it's make 400-500K this year or start putting his computer degree to work. I'd come back, especially since it will help him make a team next year

I don't want Kubiak's ego to get in the way of doing the right thing. I expect no less of Wand.
 
Wand was a bust his first year as starter, and he was a bust last year, and IF resigned he would be a bust again. Have ya'll forgotten that our sack total was cut in half between year one & two with Pitts at LT, then in comes Wand and down goes Carr, then Capers starts Wand in year 4, and Carr's sacks are up, so in comes Riley, then Wand, Then Pitts, Then Wand. Wand is not the answer.
 
srstex said:
Wand was a bust his first year as starter, and he was a bust last year, and IF resigned he would be a bust again. Have ya'll forgotten that our sack total was cut in half between year one & two with Pitts at LT, then in comes Wand and down goes Carr, then Capers starts Wand in year 4, and Carr's sacks are up, so in comes Riley, then Wand, Then Pitts, Then Wand. Wand is not the answer.
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Interesting events, had they happened that way. They didn't.

Wand played full time in 2004. Our best year. He was about as big a bust his first year starting at LT as Pitts was. Capers should have let Wand show the same improvement that from his 1st to 2nd year starting as Pitts.

Capers fixed the line by benching Wand. The line - run and pass blocking - returned to being as bad as ever and our offensive performance and record followed down the tubes. Wand hasn't been the LT since Riley took over. There was no going back and forth between Riley, Pitts, and Wand.

There were a handful of people who were downright giddy about Wand being cut. I said the team would be weaker without him. Well, we are weak at left tackle right now.

I don't expect any of the fans who were happy about the Wand cut to change their opinion even as the team craters again - they would rather see Bedell get handled by the likes of Jason Taylor than admit they may have been wrong.

I just expect our coaching staff to make a better decision for our team by reviewing all of the options for making this team better.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
ehhh....That doesn't sound like a situation where Wand would want to come back to....To go from starting to cut....then to be asked back....I dunno...and then on top of that they would probably offer him less...

I wonder why he hasn't caught on with another team already...
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That was going through my mind the whole time reading this thread. Look, there's obviously a reason why he was cut as well as still being unemployed at this time. We have yet to employ a good strong LT. It's time to make this position a priority in the offseason. We can't just keep putting bandaids on something that has been a problem since day 1. OK, I'm done with my rant. :)
 
HOU-TEX said:
That was going through my mind the whole time reading this thread. Look, there's obviously a reason why he was cut as well as still being unemployed at this time. We have yet to employ a good strong LT. It's time to make this position a priority in the offseason. We can't just keep putting bandaids on something that has been a problem since day 1. OK, I'm done with my rant. :)
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My feeling exactly. We keep replacing Wand and the replacement keeps failing to work out. It is kind of funny that fixing the o-line revolves around replacing Wand anyway. In 4 years of record setting badness Wand played one.

4 years * 5 positions = 20.
1 year * 1 position = 1.
1/20 = .05

Wand has played 5% of our offensive line total. Good thing for Weigert, McKinney, Pitts, etc. that they don't get put under the same microscope and with responsibility weighted accordingly.

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Why hasn't he been picked up?

How many teams have made moves at tackle since Wand was cut? Teams like to keep their offensive lines together unless forced to make a move. They don't move around like positions like running back during the season.

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Edit to add:

We are on pace to give up 16 sacks from the left tackle spot this year. I expect that to get worse if Bedell remains the hobbled Salaam's back-up. Weigert is on pace to give up 12 from the RT slot.

Wand gave up 12 his first year starting, and he was markedly better this pre-season. Interesting. We need to fix something.
 
Runner said:
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Why hasn't he been picked up?

How many teams have made moves at tackle since Wand was cut? Teams like to keep their offensive lines together unless forced to make a move. They don't move around like positions like running back during the season.
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Except the Texans. LOL!

Wand was cut, he's gone. IMO, he was average at best. We need to make LT a priority decision. I know I sound like a broken record but gee wizz this is getting rediculous (not that it hasn't been for the past 4 years). One of these days DC isn't going to be able to handle one of these blindside sacks and get hurt.
 
HOU-TEX said:
That was going through my mind the whole time reading this thread. Look, there's obviously a reason why he was cut as well as still being unemployed at this time. We have yet to employ a good strong LT. It's time to make this position a priority in the offseason. We can't just keep putting bandaids on something that has been a problem since day 1. OK, I'm done with my rant. :)
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Well I guess the question you'd have to ask yourself is.....Does Kubiak think that Spencer is our Long term Solution....If Not...I say we grab Joe Thomas and end all of the madness....But I'm of the opionion that Spencer can fill that role, and all we need is depth....
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Well I guess the question you'd have to ask yourself is.....Does Kubiak think that Spencer is our Long term Solution....If Not...I say we grab Joe Thomas and end all of the madness....But I'm of the opionion that Spencer can fill that role, and all we need is depth....
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I think Spencer could well be our long term solution. The severity of the injury is the only question in my mind. He has the talent to very good; he has some issues he needs to fix but I think he is fully capable of doing that as his career progresses.

It just comes down to predicting how his injury will turn out.

Yes, we are very thin for depth right now.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Well I guess the question you'd have to ask yourself is.....Does Kubiak think that Spencer is our Long term Solution....If Not...I say we grab Joe Thomas and end all of the madness....But I'm of the opionion that Spencer can fill that role, and all we need is depth....
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I believe he could as well. It depends how well he responds to this injury he's sustained. Kubiak made it sound like a serious injury. Oh well, what can ya do? Sit back and support who we have now I guess.:crutch:
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
and all we need is depth....
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Speaking of depth. Salaam has a groin injury - those have a high rate of recurrence without plenty of rest. Weigert generally loses a few games to injury. If we don't make a move soon, we could end up with Bedell and Winston manning the two tackle slots with...Breuner backing them up. Ok - Pitts.

I think we'll be seeing a move.
 
Runner said:
Interesting events, had they happened that way. They didn't.

Wand played full time in 2004. Our best year. He was about as big a bust his first year starting at LT as Pitts was. Capers should have let Wand show the same improvement that from his 1st to 2nd year starting as Pitts.

Capers fixed the line by benching Wand. The line - run and pass blocking - returned to being as bad as ever and our offensive performance and record followed down the tubes. Wand hasn't been the LT since Riley took over. There was no going back and forth between Riley, Pitts, and Wand.

There were a handful of people who were downright giddy about Wand being cut. I said the team would be weaker without him. Well, we are weak at left tackle right now.

I don't expect any of the fans who were happy about the Wand cut to change their opinion even as the team craters again - they would rather see Bedell get handled by the likes of Jason Taylor than admit they may have been wrong.

I just expect our coaching staff to make a better decision for our team by reviewing all of the options for making this team better.
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I still don't think Wand is that good. Despite his obvious athleticism, his technique is rough, his play is average at best, and I liked Spencer's future with the team over Wand's. You reference his being a starter in 2004 but IMO the success was more "in spite of" rather than "because of." I still agree with the Wand cut at the time it was made insofar as it was decided that Spencer would play above him.

That said, now that Spencer is done for the year, I wouldn't mind bringing Wand back in. I think we should give it a serious look. I don't think he's much worse than Salaam and I think he's better than Bidell. And I would hope that our coaching staff can honestly evaluate his play and, if he is one of our best options available (and short of Winston being ready to go, I suspect he is at this point) go ahead and bring him back in.

Part of the excitement of the NFL is that many times, players not well thought of end up receiving a second chance, and make the most of it. Well, this could be Wand's chance to do just that. Will be interesting to see if he is called back in or in any event, who the coaches look to in replacing Salaam if he can't go.
 
jerek said:
I don't think he's much worse than Salaam and I think he's better than Bidell.
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Isn't Bedell a young player ??? Maybe Kubes would rather Bedell gain some experience than bring back Wand who'd probably be gone next year....I could possibly see them bringing Wand back if we were seriously expecting a play-off run...But Maybe Kubes is thinking more along the lines of what's better for our future....
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Isn't Bedell a young player ??? Maybe Kubes would rather Bedell gain some experience than bring back Wand who'd probably be gone next year....I could possibly see them bringing Wand back if we were seriously expecting a play-off run...But Maybe Kubes is thinking more along the lines of what's better for our future....
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IMO, the more we try players out at LT, the more DC's going to get the crap knocked out of him from the blindside.

Man, I'm trying to quit talking about the o-line today.:)
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Isn't Bedell a young player ??? Maybe Kubes would rather Bedell gain some experience than bring back Wand who'd probably be gone next year....I could possibly see them bringing Wand back if we were seriously expecting a play-off run...But Maybe Kubes is thinking more along the lines of what's better for our future....
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Bedell is a year or two older than Wand. I don't think he is any more in the long term plans for the team than Wand. I just think we need to fix something right now to make the team better this year.

I think Winston is going to get his shot at RT this year. Other than him, I don't know who we'd play now to prepare for the future anyway. I don't think Wand or Bedell will be with the team next year in any event, unless one of them takes the chance and plays like a pro-bowler. What are the odds?

HOU-TEX said:
IMO, the more we try players out at LT, the more DC's going to get the crap knocked out of him from the blindside.
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Yep. We need to get the right player in now.
 
srstex said:
Wand was a bust his first year as starter, and he was a bust last year, and IF resigned he would be a bust again. Have ya'll forgotten that our sack total was cut in half between year one & two with Pitts at LT, then in comes Wand and down goes Carr, then Capers starts Wand in year 4, and Carr's sacks are up, so in comes Riley, then Wand, Then Pitts, Then Wand. Wand is not the answer.
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He was also the second gunman on the grassy knoll. :sarcasm: It's always nice to back up arguments with accurate facts.

Nobody is expecting Wand to be a pro-bowler. But I get the impression that most everyone else agrees that he is the lesser of two evils. Except for Kubiak

We are not going to get a stud LT for 2006, we are going to have to wait until 2007 at best. We have to deal with it.

Salaam and Bedell are backups. Wand is a starter. It's really that simple.

Honestly, I think we have lost Wand. Seeing this side of Kubiak is what bothers me the most.
 
HOU-TEX said:
Man, I'm trying to quit talking about the o-line today.
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What else are you going to talk about:

If 60 yards per game is a good running attack?

If our defense is better than our offense?

Should Dave be happy when he scores a touchdown?

It's kind of pick your poison right now. :cool:
 
Runner said:
What else are you going to talk about:

If 60 yards per game is a good running attack?

If our defense is the better than our offense?

Should Dave be happy when he scores a touchdown?

It's kind of pick your poison right now. :cool:
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At least no one has mentioned Reggie or Vince yet... oh, oops...
 
Runner said:
What else are you going to talk about:

If 60 yards per game is a good running attack?

If our defense is better than our offense?

Should Dave be happy when he scores a touchdown?

It's kind of pick your poison right now. :cool:
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Well, we could talk about Dave's wife. LOL! JK
 
Runner said:
What else are you going to talk about:

If 60 yards per game is a good running attack?

If our defense is better than our offense?

Should Dave be happy when he scores a touchdown?

It's kind of pick your poison right now. :cool:
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I tried to discuss the Coriolis effect, but you were the only one who bit on it...
 
Runner said:
I was disappointed in that too. I even threw in sophism and didn't get any bites.
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Boy, them's some fancy words you's usin'.

Satisfied? :)

I consider myself quite well studied in the language and I had to look up what sophism meant.
 
Our system is better suited for backs drafted in the later rounds. Can't you tell?

No running back will succeed without offensive line support. For an example, look to how well the Edge is performing in Arizona.
 
jerek said:
Boy, them's some fancy words you's usin'.

Satisfied? :)

I consider myself quite well studied in the language and I had to look up what sophism meant.
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I dated a girl named Sophie once. Is that to whom you are refering? Let's face the LT position is crap now. If Spencer is the future, we still need another high quality tackle. Not a guard scootching over & certainly not a "player hoping to get in the way just long enough to get Carr a concussion rather than a casket".
 
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