Only in the minds of the media and the fans. The teams only pay a slight attention to those things
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2023 TEXANS DRAFT DISCUSSION
- Thread starter gwallaia
- Start date
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
Yeah, this is patently obvious, typical "2023 athlete" bullshit. Hostage-taker now or in the future, etc. We've seen this type of **** across multiple sports in the last 10-15 years. Even with our last guy who was, you know, part of that same crew.
I've had enough. He's not worth taking the chance on this ****. I've seen the pattern too much in sports and real life to not be able to spot it here. There is more to things than on-field play. No thanks.
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TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
It's a hundred percent clear that this is the situation with this agent ****. The fact that some people still want this around this team is mind blowing.
Let the player be good for someone else if he's gonna be good. I don't care. Don't want the headache.
Not only that, but it's clear that this is their playbook on their clients and approach to business overall. Not only would I not draft this guy, I wouldn't take or sign or deal with any player who had this guy as his agent. Like some teams refusing to deal with Boras. There's plenty of good players. We don't need to deal with this.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
Yes. Yes. ******* thousand percent yes.
This "have to draft a qb" **** is just extracurricular commentary from the periphery that manifests into "truth" or reality.
It's the same bullshit that led my Suns to fire Mike D'Antoni and install Terry Porter as coach because we "didn't play defense!!" even though it was rebounding that was the issue. They promptly fired Porter by February and brought back Gentry/SSOL.
As I was catching up, someone posted something about would you rather swing and miss or pass and have someone end up good elsewhere. Let me tell you a couple of tree things, there's plenty of great players all over the league. Not everyone is gonna play for the Houston Texans. Drafting someone and striking out involves hope lost, coaching and effort lost, time lost, capital lost and so on. A swing and a miss is *infinitely* more costly. Again, look at the Suns who drafted DeAndre ******* Ayton instead of Luka Doncic. And often times a, a swing and a miss results in all that time wasted and then boom, 5 more years on top of a "new rebuild cycle."
No. I'm not willing to sacrifice that much more time.
On another note, given that Haener is smaller but has a warrior mentality (watch his game against UCLA for starters or at least the 4th quarter), is smart, has a great work ethic,etc and his concern is "size" then maybe you get him to be your cheap Bryce Young. Focus your top capital on other players and make sure you get Haener later and develop him. It's a smart compromise. It's personality traits that jump off the ******* page watching as a Fresno fan these last few years, insofar as me watching college.
Edit: Damn, just watched this clip with Mariucci:
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This is what I think, but can't really prove
Part of the value at 3 currently is taking a QB off the market by a so-called QB-needy team at two. Instead of two QBs with the Colts lurking at 4, if the market forces the Texans to take the pass rusher then there are three QBs, and maybe even three is not worth less.
While I like adding more picks as anyone, the point of picks is to get players and the Texans have double digits picks for the next two years already, but are weakest at the two positions being considered at 2...pass rusher and QB. If the Texans can get near equal or better by trading down great, for me I not trying to chase value as much as let's get good football players on the roster.
Yeah! Draft enough 4-7th round QBs and you just might find yourself a TJ Yates! Who needs a potential top-tier QB when you could get a guy like Yates later- think of all that draft value you saved.
So am I the only horndog who wanted to keep the conversation on Haener's mom?
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Bengals won 2 games no matter your division. Their talent pool was bad, go look ar the production of said players. Green was washed and wanted out injured, Ross was pretty much a bust before we get to the ol. You're acting like the Texans fielded XFL players or something. In today nfl where half the teams make the playoffs from the year before are new is because of parity. The Dolphins gutted their roster, won 5 games before winning 10. Again, 5 years to rebuild was pre salary cap nfl rebuild, not post salary and rookie cap nfl. Plus none of those had 2 1st rd picks 3 years in a row
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leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Last year, the Texans drafted right in front of the Jets twice, yet somehow the Jets drafted the DROY and all pro along with the OROY. What does either have to do with franchise qb?
bigbrewster2000
Veteran
You absolutely can every time. It works 60 percent of the time.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
The issue here was that allegedly Stroud committed to going to that camp and being at that camp. As like a counselor, I guess, and then he didn't show up for some reason.
BQ's point was that this is a guy who doesn't follow through and breaks his word, and that's not the kind of guy you want as your franchise QB. And then a bunch of people (many with Mulugheta connections) jumped on BQ's ass.
Stroud says he didn't commit and he wasn't getting paid for it.
It was a whole thing.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Yes, AJ Green had been to the pro bowl every year until he missed the year from injury in 2019.
Both were horrible. But neither are why the Texans were losers.
That Bengals team that won 2 games scored 17.4 points per game to the Texans 16.5
Texans defense gave up 32 points more.
Bengals had a pro bowl player (that was not injured). Texans had none
Both teams had bad rosters, but to say the Bengals had a worse on is laughable.
Don't know why you are bringing up 5 year rebuild.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Buchsbaum [may he rest in peace] was a true football savant with a photographic memory. Despite being referred to as scout, Buchsbaum rejected the notion that he was one. He always said, 'I don't evaluate players, I listen to the right people,' '' This article recounts some amazing stories and facts about the man that many have never heard. A true football fan cannot help but enjoy his story.
***************************************************************************************************************************************************
The Legend of Joel Buchsbaum
April 29th, 2021
1(This is a repost of a previously published article Joe runs as an annual tradition for the morning of the first day of the NFL draft.)
Joe’s going to go slightly personal here, a rare, albeit tiny window into Joe’s background on this holiest of high football holidays.
Joe got hooked on the NFL draft as a kid from an alien-like voice that floated through the Midwestern night air and originated from a city Joe finally visited for the first time in September 2012.
Growing up as a kid, there were two people who turned Joe into the football freak he is today. One was Joe’s high school football coach, a guy who played for a virtual who’s who of football coaches: John Madden, Tom Landry, Gene Stallings and Lou Holtz. It kills Joe how much he has forgotten about football from a man unknown by 99.99999 percent of the populace.
Joe remembers covering his first NFL training camp warmly. There, grizzled Stallings was the head coach of the old St. Louis Cardinals. He vividly remembered Joe’s high school coach playing for him. After learning Joe played for one of his protegés, Stallings treated Joe like one of his family members.
The second source fueling Joe’s unwavering football fetish came from an unlikely location: an unkept Brooklyn apartment.
Joe first heard of Joel Buchsbaum on a blowtorch radio station out of St. Louis, KMOX. There, each Monday night (prior to Monday Night Football), and Sunday night (during the offseason), Buchsbaum, the original draftnik, would talk to strangers throughout the Midwest, giving listeners knowledge on college football players and the NFL that, to this day, Joe finds unmatched — not even by Mel Kiper, not even by Pat Kirwan or Michael Lombardi.
People would call the show and ask Buchsbaum about (pick a player), and often before the caller finished his question, Buchsbaum would interrupt and begin rattling off the talents and drawbacks of said player, often beginning his responses with “Ooohhh-KAY!” as if he was revving up the engine of a Mustang just before putting the rig into gear.
Periodically, Buchsbaum would invoke his favorite saying of lesser players, “Looks like Tarzan; plays like Jane.”
Pleasantries were not a forte of Buchsbaum. He was not rude, not even close, but he was very short and impatient with rambling callers.
Joe remembers some guy asking Buchsbaum about (name of the player long ago forgotten), who the caller claimed was a starting cornerback at Utah. Buchsbaum, in his shrill, nasally, thick Brooklyn accent, corrected the caller almost immediately. No, the player is not from Utah, Buchsbaum said, but from Utah State. And in fact he was a backup cornerback.
This did not stop Buchsbaum from launching into why the player was not starting and why coaches didn’t start him despite the promise he showed. Mind you, this was long before the days of laptops, so Buchsbaum couldn’t have Googled the player’s name in five seconds to pull up his information (partially because neither Google nor the Internet existed).
It was unreal what this guy knew. And in Joe’s circle of fellow football friends, guys who rarely if ever listened to an AM station, Buchsbaum was like fresh honey to flies. He was like the Rain Man.
Fast forward maybe 15 years and the Sporting News decided to find out who was the best draftnik. They researched Buchsbaum, Mel Kiper and a third guy Joe had not heard of before and still can’t remember. The Sporting News broke down each man’s final mock draft through four rounds for three consecutive years.
Buchsbaum won not only the race, but he had more correct picks each year.
Buchsbaum, a recluse, died 18 years ago. In a perverted way Joe was jealous of the guy. All he did was study football, read football, write football, talk football and work his many NFL and college inside sources. Included at the top of the list was Bill Belicheat, who tried to hire Buchsbaum several times but was spurned with each offer.
So as Day 1 of the draft is here, and maybe by midnight we find out if Elijah Moore or Travis Etienne will be terrorizing Bucs opponents for the next decade, Joe can’t help but remember Buchsbaum and that unforgettable voice.
Here’s a nugget from acclaimed football scribe, and friend of Buchsbaum, John McClain of the Houston Chronicle.
Chad Finn of the Boston Globe decided to dig up Buchsbaum’s breakdown of Tom Brady coming out of Michigan and with the “positives,” Buchsbaum nailed the analysis.
Urban legend is that Belicheat, one of the few friends Buchsbaum had, took a flyer on Brady based on Buchsbaum’s recommendation. Belicheat since has acknowledged he would annually go over his draft board with Buchsbaum — a non-team employee — in the hours leading to the draft, a practice which is absolutely unheard of in NFL circles.
Joe will raise a bottle of beer tonight for Buchsbaum … after the draft and when Joe is finished banging out story after story.
Here and here and here are some cool stories about Buchsbaum.
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
Loosen up Earl.
Smell the Roses, laugh at the shenanigan's and fools being fools. Life's too short to do otherwise. It's just entertainment.I suppose if it fails to entertain then there is always the option to watch C span for laughs.
We survived the Bud Adams years, this is a cake walk.
Number19
Hall of Fame
I'm sure all of us old timers knew and loved his reports.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Stroud skipping the Manning Academy after committing because he wasn't going to get paid is more of an egregious red flag than Bennett getting arrested for public intoxication. There is a disconnect and those who are in it for the money and not the love of the game, usually do not fare well for long in the arena.
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Number19
Hall of Fame
Thanks. Great read on Joel.
Porky
Hall of Fame
I go way back with Joel B. I started listening to him in the early-mid 80’s. At the time I think it was KTRH that had an afternoon sports talk show. Joel would come on and chop it up with the guys and I was just amazed at the guy. This was a decade before internet and he was like an encyclopedia. And he had these references on guys that would make me laugh. Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane is the one that sticks out but there were others.
it was essentially because of him that I started really paying attention to the draft. The first Draft I really paid attention to was the Mike Munchak draft. There was no TV yet, but I remember being elated with Munchak because I had heard Joel praise the guy. I wouldn’t have had a clue who he was but I felt I knew our incoming rookie thanks to Joel. Not too long after, Joel said he was writing for a publication called Pro Football Weekly.
I immediately subscribed and each week, I got this newspaper style publication in my mailbox that was a football fans dream. Every team, every stat, features galore, and yes there was Joel with his column…always so insightful.
It’s not overstating it to say that Joel made me the fan I became. I wouldn’t have become so enamored with this game if it wasn’t for Joel. It was a sad day when I heard he had passed. Thanks for the memories Joel. Somewhere up there, I imagine you giving scouting reports on the new Angels joining you up in Heaven. The guy never tried hard, but he was nice to his dog, so I’d take him on day 2, but let him spend a day in purgatory first.
Cherers Joel and may you always rest in peace.
it was essentially because of him that I started really paying attention to the draft. The first Draft I really paid attention to was the Mike Munchak draft. There was no TV yet, but I remember being elated with Munchak because I had heard Joel praise the guy. I wouldn’t have had a clue who he was but I felt I knew our incoming rookie thanks to Joel. Not too long after, Joel said he was writing for a publication called Pro Football Weekly.
I immediately subscribed and each week, I got this newspaper style publication in my mailbox that was a football fans dream. Every team, every stat, features galore, and yes there was Joel with his column…always so insightful.
It’s not overstating it to say that Joel made me the fan I became. I wouldn’t have become so enamored with this game if it wasn’t for Joel. It was a sad day when I heard he had passed. Thanks for the memories Joel. Somewhere up there, I imagine you giving scouting reports on the new Angels joining you up in Heaven. The guy never tried hard, but he was nice to his dog, so I’d take him on day 2, but let him spend a day in purgatory first.
Cherers Joel and may you always rest in peace.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
- https://theathletic.com/4420436/202...story/?source=freeweeklyemail&campaign=602288
- Dan Pompei
- 15 min read
At 5-foot-7, “Little General” Eddie LeBaron went to four Pro Bowls. Doug Flutie (5-10) had a 38-28 record as an NFL starter. Russell Wilson (5-11) is a Super Bowl champion. And Sonny Jurgenson (5-11) led the NFL in passing five times on his way to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
But if the hype is real, Alabama’s Bryce Young (5-10), the presumptive first pick of the NFL Draft, may stand above all other short quarterbacks one day. And for that to happen, Young may need to do things his larger counterparts cannot.
“He better walk on water,” Bill Parcells told The Athletic.
The saying has its roots in Matthew, Mark and John, but Parcells borrowed it from former Packers general manager Ron Wolf. And it applies to all short quarterbacks.
Jurgenson, whom Vince Lombardi called the best quarterback he ever saw and last suited up 49 years ago, probably is the only sub-6-foot quarterback who would figuratively pass the Parcells test.
The history of undersized NFL quarterbacks answers some questions about Young. And it raises others. The most significant is this — if a quarterback needs to have his uniform pants taken up, does that mean he cannot reach the heights of his profession?
The traditional prototypical height for an NFL quarterback is 6-4. Think Troy Aikman, Tom Brady and Andrew Luck. Or Florida’s Anthony Richardson, another first-round prospect who is everything Young is not — a physically ideal quarterback with a thin resume and questionable quarterback intuition.
The ideal height for QBs has been smudged by the evolution of offenses — especially college offenses — and the ascension of athletic quarterbacks who can make more yards notwithstanding fewer inches.
The 2023 draft, in fact, may be remembered as the draft of the short quarterback. In addition to Young, players who could be selected include Fresno State’s Jake Haener, Georgia’s Stetson Bennett and Louisville’s Malik Cunningham, all of whom are 5-11.
Also being considered are three players still considered short by NFL standards at 6-1 — Max Duggan of Texas Christian, Jaren Hall of BYU and Dorian Thompson-Robinson of UCLA.
Since 2000, 368 quarterbacks have played in the NFL; only nine have been shorter than 6 feet. Only three current quarterbacks in the league are under 6-0 — the Broncos’ Wilson, the Cardinals’ Kyler Murray (5-11) and Bears backup P.J. Walker (5-10).
And 6 feet is a line of demarcation. There have been numerous quarterbacks who slayed defenses at that height, among them Drew Brees, Len Dawson, Sid Luckman, Fran Tarkenton, Joe Theismann, Y.A. Tittle, Michael Vick and Steve Young, who was listed at 6-2 throughout his career but later admitted that measurement was a couple of inches too generous.
There are nowhere near as many examples of successful 5-foot-something quarterbacks.
Eastern Illinois quarterback Sean Payton knew that when he met with NFL teams in 1986. Bears scout Jeff Shiver measured Payton, who compiled 10,000-plus passing yards and 75 touchdowns directing the prolific “Eastern Airlines” offense, at 5-11 7/8. Payton says he “begged” Shiver to list him at 6-0, and Shiver complied.
Brees’ official height from the combine was 6-0 2/8, but some scouts who measured him during his college days claimed he was a tick below 6-0. Payton, Brees’ longtime coach in New Orleans, argues otherwise, partly because he looked up to his quarterback.
Norv Turner was the offensive coordinator of the Chargers when San Diego selected Brees out of Purdue. The starter on that team was Flutie. Turner says he gets nervous about quarterbacks who are not at least 5-10. Young, officially listed at 5-10 1/8, is about the same size as Murray and Wilson, so he makes Turner’s cutoff.
“When I watch him play, I don’t see his size hindering him,” Turner says. “He has great athleticism and great feel in the pocket.”
A high-ranking NFC talent evaluator granted anonymity because he was not authorized by his team to speak on the record says Young was limited by his size only when he tried to escape a big defender. “He’s elusive, but when a big guy gets his hand on him, he is going to go down,” he says. “Young can’t break away from someone like bigger quarterbacks can.”
Weight arguably is a more significant concern than height.
“If there’s a reason he doesn’t succeed, it will be durability,” the NFC evaluator says. “It won’t be height, accuracy, decision-making or arm strength.”
Wilson and Murray have been durable — Murray tore his ACL last December in a non-contact injury — but both are more thickly built than Young. “Kyler and Russell both know how to slide to where they can stay out of harm,” says former Cardinals general manager Steve Keim, who drafted Murray with the first pick of the 2019 draft.
While Young was 204 pounds at the combine, it will be a surprise if he weighs that much in the fall. When scouts visited Alabama during Young’s time there, he weighed about 190 pounds, according to more than one of them.
“His weight was manufactured for the combine, then his agents didn’t allow him to get weighed at his pro day,” says an AFC front-office person also granted anonymity. “He’s a 185- to 190-pound guy frame-wise.”
That said, after starting 34 college games while playing in the SEC, Young either knows how to avoid injury or he’s been charmed.
“You don’t see him getting his head taken off like (Kentucky’s 6-4) Will Levis did,” says the NFC evaluator, who ranks Young No. 1 in the class of quarterbacks. “He knows where the blitz is coming from and knows who’s picking it up. He has a knack to slip some of it. He has special awareness, even when he’s under pressure.”
Young missed one game at Alabama because of a sprained shoulder. Besides that, he never had a significant injury, even in high school.
“The lack of bulk doesn’t bother me because he’s such a good athlete,” Turner says. “I coached a lot of years against Joe Montana. He was probably a 190-pound guy. I know it was a different era, but he could avoid the rush and run. Bryce is similar.
You don’t see him take a big hit very often.”
Bryce Young’s slight build concerns some NFL scouts, but he showed a knack for avoiding big hits in college. (Kevin C. Cox / Getty Images)
Can Young compensate for his size?
If he can’t, he won’t last, because quarterbacks lacking in size must do more than their taller counterparts to level the field.
The hesitation about short quarterbacks is mainly because 5-10 can’t see over 6-5 (the average height of the 28 offensive tackles at the combine this year). Short QBs sometimes struggle to find throwing lanes.
“You can’t shy away from the fact that they’re all going to have some issues with seeing the field in a conventional offense or getting balls batted down from time to time,” Keim says. “So they have to have compensating abilities, whether that’s arm strength, accuracy, ability to throw on the run or ability to escape and extend plays with their feet.”
The AFC front-office person believes short quarterbacks struggle if their arm angle upon release is three-quarters or lower. Young has an over-the-top release but is capable of changing his throwing angle when it’s advantageous.
THE REST OF THE STORY
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
A.J. Green Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com
Checkout the latest stats for A.J. Green. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.
www.pro-football-reference.com
Aj was washed bro. Hurt in 2018, didn't play 2019, didn't want to be there in 2020. Cooks was a better wr in 2020 and 2021 than AJ.
Just looking at the draft. The Texans really control this draft. I don't think any team will play with Arizona until the Texans take their pick.
4,7, 8, 11 will be looking for QB's.
Are the Colts at 4 locked in on Levis or are they Stroud truthers? Feels like they are the most likely trade partner.
Is Vegas going to move up? Prepare to get a haul similar to the Bears considering many teams consider Stroud and Young as the only 1st round guys per reports.
Feels more likely the Texans take Stroud at 2.
If they want Anderson and or Wilson they would just trade back with the Colts at this point who wouldn't want to be leap frogged at 3 for their guy.
So there is an interesting option at 4. Question is would the Texans want to trade the QB they passed on to a division rival? I think you are setting yourself up for getting fired if the QB hits and the one you draft doesn't.
Raiders, Titans, Falcons, all need a QB and it feels like that's the spot for a potential bidding war.
Pick 2 QB
Pick 3 QB
Pick 4 QB
Also surprised we aren't seeing more trade chatter for the Seahawks pick at 5. The seahawks were built on draft capital in later rounds. Not top picks. Even Earl Thomas was drafted in the mid first. Chancellor, Sherman, Wagner etc were all later round guys.
Houston trades 12, 33 for 5. Selects Will Anderson or Tyree Wilson. Both guys have a good shot at falling here.
Great Options for Houston Thursday night.
4,7, 8, 11 will be looking for QB's.
Are the Colts at 4 locked in on Levis or are they Stroud truthers? Feels like they are the most likely trade partner.
Is Vegas going to move up? Prepare to get a haul similar to the Bears considering many teams consider Stroud and Young as the only 1st round guys per reports.
Feels more likely the Texans take Stroud at 2.
If they want Anderson and or Wilson they would just trade back with the Colts at this point who wouldn't want to be leap frogged at 3 for their guy.
So there is an interesting option at 4. Question is would the Texans want to trade the QB they passed on to a division rival? I think you are setting yourself up for getting fired if the QB hits and the one you draft doesn't.
Raiders, Titans, Falcons, all need a QB and it feels like that's the spot for a potential bidding war.
Pick 2 QB
Pick 3 QB
Pick 4 QB
Also surprised we aren't seeing more trade chatter for the Seahawks pick at 5. The seahawks were built on draft capital in later rounds. Not top picks. Even Earl Thomas was drafted in the mid first. Chancellor, Sherman, Wagner etc were all later round guys.
Houston trades 12, 33 for 5. Selects Will Anderson or Tyree Wilson. Both guys have a good shot at falling here.
Great Options for Houston Thursday night.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
His height doesn't bother me honestly. Qbs don't throw over the top of linemen as much as they throw through lanes. I remember when Simms was in a battle with I think Applewhite at UT. Simms at 6'5 got way more passes batted down at the line than the 6ft applewhite.Bryce Young at No. 1? The history of short NFL QBs shows little margin for error
- https://theathletic.com/4420436/202...story/?source=freeweeklyemail&campaign=602288
- Dan Pompei
- 15 min read
At 5-foot-7, “Little General” Eddie LeBaron went to four Pro Bowls. Doug Flutie (5-10) had a 38-28 record as an NFL starter. Russell Wilson (5-11) is a Super Bowl champion. And Sonny Jurgenson (5-11) led the NFL in passing five times on his way to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
But if the hype is real, Alabama’s Bryce Young (5-10), the presumptive first pick of the NFL Draft, may stand above all other short quarterbacks one day. And for that to happen, Young may need to do things his larger counterparts cannot.
“He better walk on water,” Bill Parcells told The Athletic.
The saying has its roots in Matthew, Mark and John, but Parcells borrowed it from former Packers general manager Ron Wolf. And it applies to all short quarterbacks.
Jurgenson, whom Vince Lombardi called the best quarterback he ever saw and last suited up 49 years ago, probably is the only sub-6-foot quarterback who would figuratively pass the Parcells test.
The history of undersized NFL quarterbacks answers some questions about Young. And it raises others. The most significant is this — if a quarterback needs to have his uniform pants taken up, does that mean he cannot reach the heights of his profession?
The traditional prototypical height for an NFL quarterback is 6-4. Think Troy Aikman, Tom Brady and Andrew Luck. Or Florida’s Anthony Richardson, another first-round prospect who is everything Young is not — a physically ideal quarterback with a thin resume and questionable quarterback intuition.
The ideal height for QBs has been smudged by the evolution of offenses — especially college offenses — and the ascension of athletic quarterbacks who can make more yards notwithstanding fewer inches.
The 2023 draft, in fact, may be remembered as the draft of the short quarterback. In addition to Young, players who could be selected include Fresno State’s Jake Haener, Georgia’s Stetson Bennett and Louisville’s Malik Cunningham, all of whom are 5-11.
Also being considered are three players still considered short by NFL standards at 6-1 — Max Duggan of Texas Christian, Jaren Hall of BYU and Dorian Thompson-Robinson of UCLA.
Since 2000, 368 quarterbacks have played in the NFL; only nine have been shorter than 6 feet. Only three current quarterbacks in the league are under 6-0 — the Broncos’ Wilson, the Cardinals’ Kyler Murray (5-11) and Bears backup P.J. Walker (5-10).
And 6 feet is a line of demarcation. There have been numerous quarterbacks who slayed defenses at that height, among them Drew Brees, Len Dawson, Sid Luckman, Fran Tarkenton, Joe Theismann, Y.A. Tittle, Michael Vick and Steve Young, who was listed at 6-2 throughout his career but later admitted that measurement was a couple of inches too generous.
There are nowhere near as many examples of successful 5-foot-something quarterbacks.
Eastern Illinois quarterback Sean Payton knew that when he met with NFL teams in 1986. Bears scout Jeff Shiver measured Payton, who compiled 10,000-plus passing yards and 75 touchdowns directing the prolific “Eastern Airlines” offense, at 5-11 7/8. Payton says he “begged” Shiver to list him at 6-0, and Shiver complied.
Brees’ official height from the combine was 6-0 2/8, but some scouts who measured him during his college days claimed he was a tick below 6-0. Payton, Brees’ longtime coach in New Orleans, argues otherwise, partly because he looked up to his quarterback.
Norv Turner was the offensive coordinator of the Chargers when San Diego selected Brees out of Purdue. The starter on that team was Flutie. Turner says he gets nervous about quarterbacks who are not at least 5-10. Young, officially listed at 5-10 1/8, is about the same size as Murray and Wilson, so he makes Turner’s cutoff.
“When I watch him play, I don’t see his size hindering him,” Turner says. “He has great athleticism and great feel in the pocket.”
A high-ranking NFC talent evaluator granted anonymity because he was not authorized by his team to speak on the record says Young was limited by his size only when he tried to escape a big defender. “He’s elusive, but when a big guy gets his hand on him, he is going to go down,” he says. “Young can’t break away from someone like bigger quarterbacks can.”
Weight arguably is a more significant concern than height.
“If there’s a reason he doesn’t succeed, it will be durability,” the NFC evaluator says. “It won’t be height, accuracy, decision-making or arm strength.”
Wilson and Murray have been durable — Murray tore his ACL last December in a non-contact injury — but both are more thickly built than Young. “Kyler and Russell both know how to slide to where they can stay out of harm,” says former Cardinals general manager Steve Keim, who drafted Murray with the first pick of the 2019 draft.
While Young was 204 pounds at the combine, it will be a surprise if he weighs that much in the fall. When scouts visited Alabama during Young’s time there, he weighed about 190 pounds, according to more than one of them.
“His weight was manufactured for the combine, then his agents didn’t allow him to get weighed at his pro day,” says an AFC front-office person also granted anonymity. “He’s a 185- to 190-pound guy frame-wise.”
That said, after starting 34 college games while playing in the SEC, Young either knows how to avoid injury or he’s been charmed.
“You don’t see him getting his head taken off like (Kentucky’s 6-4) Will Levis did,” says the NFC evaluator, who ranks Young No. 1 in the class of quarterbacks. “He knows where the blitz is coming from and knows who’s picking it up. He has a knack to slip some of it. He has special awareness, even when he’s under pressure.”
Young missed one game at Alabama because of a sprained shoulder. Besides that, he never had a significant injury, even in high school.
“The lack of bulk doesn’t bother me because he’s such a good athlete,” Turner says. “I coached a lot of years against Joe Montana. He was probably a 190-pound guy. I know it was a different era, but he could avoid the rush and run. Bryce is similar.
You don’t see him take a big hit very often.”
Bryce Young’s slight build concerns some NFL scouts, but he showed a knack for avoiding big hits in college. (Kevin C. Cox / Getty Images)
Can Young compensate for his size?
If he can’t, he won’t last, because quarterbacks lacking in size must do more than their taller counterparts to level the field.
The hesitation about short quarterbacks is mainly because 5-10 can’t see over 6-5 (the average height of the 28 offensive tackles at the combine this year). Short QBs sometimes struggle to find throwing lanes.
“You can’t shy away from the fact that they’re all going to have some issues with seeing the field in a conventional offense or getting balls batted down from time to time,” Keim says. “So they have to have compensating abilities, whether that’s arm strength, accuracy, ability to throw on the run or ability to escape and extend plays with their feet.”
The AFC front-office person believes short quarterbacks struggle if their arm angle upon release is three-quarters or lower. Young has an over-the-top release but is capable of changing his throwing angle when it’s advantageous.
THE REST OF THE STORY
The1ApplePie
Hall of Fame
Richardson/Stroud at 2
Bjian at 12
Best WR at 33
The rest defense
Bjian at 12
Best WR at 33
The rest defense
KoolAid Sipper
AFCEVET
You're looking at it wrong, see the S2 is the precursor of things to come. Today's QBs are tomorrow's coaches...Hanna-Barbera tried to tell us:
Yes, but you are looking in hindsight. In 2020, he was still a WR coming off 1000 yard seasons in 6 of his 7 seasons with the other being 964 yards and well on his way to another 1000 yard season and pro bowl when he was hurt in 2018. He was still demanding doube teams through most of 2020.A.J. Green Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com
Checkout the latest stats for A.J. Green. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.
Aj was washed bro. Hurt in 2018, didn't play 2019, didn't want to be there in 2020. Cooks was a better wr in 2020 and 2021 than AJ.
I'm done here, we were talking rosters and if you want to compare head to head between 2019 Bengals and 2021 Texans then go ahead.
Try to do it without your hindsight judgement of the players. Neither of us is going to change their mind so I will leave you with your wrong-headed pessimistic version of how things were.
Texansballer74
The Marine
theCATALYST
Football Messiah
Surely they are. Probably coming from the Colts camp or the Raiders camp.
Landon Oliver is making **** up
Surely though for the half of the league that uses the S2 scores they know the real results and 'fake' leaks won't matter..
And for the other half that doesn't really use/regard the S2, well.. 'fake' leaks shouldn't matter just the same..
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
No hindsight, after that injury, he wasn't the same and they put the tag on him and he didn't want to be there. Some of those young guys developed vs being good at the time. All in all, they won 6 games in 2 years.Yes, but you are looking in hindsight. In 2020, he was still a WR coming off 1000 yard seasons in 6 of his 7 seasons with the other being 964 yards and well on his way to another 1000 yard season and pro bowl when he was hurt in 2018. He was still demanding doube teams through most of 2020.
I'm done here, we were talking rosters and if you want to compare head to head between 2019 Bengals and 2021 Texans then go ahead.
Try to do it without your hindsight judgement of the players. Neither of us is going to change their mind so I will leave you with your wrong-headed pessimistic version of how things were.
The1ApplePie
Hall of Fame
My mistake, I missed that when checking PFR
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
Bruh....smokin
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
Why do you always go back to the agency? No one is saying the Texans have an issue with Athletes 1st (or whatever it's called). But Mullageta who is just one of the agents for that agency.
The Texans do not have bad blood between themselves & Bryce Young's agent, or Bobby Slowick's agent, or anyone other than (allegedly) Mulagheta (sp)
banned1976
sleeper mode
Vegas is feeling sorry for all the gamblers and are giving away free money.
Dammmm.... too bad Carolina is taking him with the number 1 pickBryce Young at No. 1? The history of short NFL QBs shows little margin for error
- https://theathletic.com/4420436/202...story/?source=freeweeklyemail&campaign=602288
- Dan Pompei
- 15 min read
At 5-foot-7, “Little General” Eddie LeBaron went to four Pro Bowls. Doug Flutie (5-10) had a 38-28 record as an NFL starter. Russell Wilson (5-11) is a Super Bowl champion. And Sonny Jurgenson (5-11) led the NFL in passing five times on his way to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
But if the hype is real, Alabama’s Bryce Young (5-10), the presumptive first pick of the NFL Draft, may stand above all other short quarterbacks one day. And for that to happen, Young may need to do things his larger counterparts cannot.
“He better walk on water,” Bill Parcells told The Athletic.
The saying has its roots in Matthew, Mark and John, but Parcells borrowed it from former Packers general manager Ron Wolf. And it applies to all short quarterbacks.
Jurgenson, whom Vince Lombardi called the best quarterback he ever saw and last suited up 49 years ago, probably is the only sub-6-foot quarterback who would figuratively pass the Parcells test.
The history of undersized NFL quarterbacks answers some questions about Young. And it raises others. The most significant is this — if a quarterback needs to have his uniform pants taken up, does that mean he cannot reach the heights of his profession?
The traditional prototypical height for an NFL quarterback is 6-4. Think Troy Aikman, Tom Brady and Andrew Luck. Or Florida’s Anthony Richardson, another first-round prospect who is everything Young is not — a physically ideal quarterback with a thin resume and questionable quarterback intuition.
The ideal height for QBs has been smudged by the evolution of offenses — especially college offenses — and the ascension of athletic quarterbacks who can make more yards notwithstanding fewer inches.
The 2023 draft, in fact, may be remembered as the draft of the short quarterback. In addition to Young, players who could be selected include Fresno State’s Jake Haener, Georgia’s Stetson Bennett and Louisville’s Malik Cunningham, all of whom are 5-11.
Also being considered are three players still considered short by NFL standards at 6-1 — Max Duggan of Texas Christian, Jaren Hall of BYU and Dorian Thompson-Robinson of UCLA.
Since 2000, 368 quarterbacks have played in the NFL; only nine have been shorter than 6 feet. Only three current quarterbacks in the league are under 6-0 — the Broncos’ Wilson, the Cardinals’ Kyler Murray (5-11) and Bears backup P.J. Walker (5-10).
And 6 feet is a line of demarcation. There have been numerous quarterbacks who slayed defenses at that height, among them Drew Brees, Len Dawson, Sid Luckman, Fran Tarkenton, Joe Theismann, Y.A. Tittle, Michael Vick and Steve Young, who was listed at 6-2 throughout his career but later admitted that measurement was a couple of inches too generous.
There are nowhere near as many examples of successful 5-foot-something quarterbacks.
Eastern Illinois quarterback Sean Payton knew that when he met with NFL teams in 1986. Bears scout Jeff Shiver measured Payton, who compiled 10,000-plus passing yards and 75 touchdowns directing the prolific “Eastern Airlines” offense, at 5-11 7/8. Payton says he “begged” Shiver to list him at 6-0, and Shiver complied.
Brees’ official height from the combine was 6-0 2/8, but some scouts who measured him during his college days claimed he was a tick below 6-0. Payton, Brees’ longtime coach in New Orleans, argues otherwise, partly because he looked up to his quarterback.
Norv Turner was the offensive coordinator of the Chargers when San Diego selected Brees out of Purdue. The starter on that team was Flutie. Turner says he gets nervous about quarterbacks who are not at least 5-10. Young, officially listed at 5-10 1/8, is about the same size as Murray and Wilson, so he makes Turner’s cutoff.
“When I watch him play, I don’t see his size hindering him,” Turner says. “He has great athleticism and great feel in the pocket.”
A high-ranking NFC talent evaluator granted anonymity because he was not authorized by his team to speak on the record says Young was limited by his size only when he tried to escape a big defender. “He’s elusive, but when a big guy gets his hand on him, he is going to go down,” he says. “Young can’t break away from someone like bigger quarterbacks can.”
Weight arguably is a more significant concern than height.
“If there’s a reason he doesn’t succeed, it will be durability,” the NFC evaluator says. “It won’t be height, accuracy, decision-making or arm strength.”
Wilson and Murray have been durable — Murray tore his ACL last December in a non-contact injury — but both are more thickly built than Young. “Kyler and Russell both know how to slide to where they can stay out of harm,” says former Cardinals general manager Steve Keim, who drafted Murray with the first pick of the 2019 draft.
While Young was 204 pounds at the combine, it will be a surprise if he weighs that much in the fall. When scouts visited Alabama during Young’s time there, he weighed about 190 pounds, according to more than one of them.
“His weight was manufactured for the combine, then his agents didn’t allow him to get weighed at his pro day,” says an AFC front-office person also granted anonymity. “He’s a 185- to 190-pound guy frame-wise.”
That said, after starting 34 college games while playing in the SEC, Young either knows how to avoid injury or he’s been charmed.
“You don’t see him getting his head taken off like (Kentucky’s 6-4) Will Levis did,” says the NFC evaluator, who ranks Young No. 1 in the class of quarterbacks. “He knows where the blitz is coming from and knows who’s picking it up. He has a knack to slip some of it. He has special awareness, even when he’s under pressure.”
Young missed one game at Alabama because of a sprained shoulder. Besides that, he never had a significant injury, even in high school.
“The lack of bulk doesn’t bother me because he’s such a good athlete,” Turner says. “I coached a lot of years against Joe Montana. He was probably a 190-pound guy. I know it was a different era, but he could avoid the rush and run. Bryce is similar.
You don’t see him take a big hit very often.”
Bryce Young’s slight build concerns some NFL scouts, but he showed a knack for avoiding big hits in college. (Kevin C. Cox / Getty Images)
Can Young compensate for his size?
If he can’t, he won’t last, because quarterbacks lacking in size must do more than their taller counterparts to level the field.
The hesitation about short quarterbacks is mainly because 5-10 can’t see over 6-5 (the average height of the 28 offensive tackles at the combine this year). Short QBs sometimes struggle to find throwing lanes.
“You can’t shy away from the fact that they’re all going to have some issues with seeing the field in a conventional offense or getting balls batted down from time to time,” Keim says. “So they have to have compensating abilities, whether that’s arm strength, accuracy, ability to throw on the run or ability to escape and extend plays with their feet.”
The AFC front-office person believes short quarterbacks struggle if their arm angle upon release is three-quarters or lower. Young has an over-the-top release but is capable of changing his throwing angle when it’s advantageous.
THE REST OF THE STORY