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O'Brien vs. Kubiak

maverick512000 said:
When the defense won the game it was RAC, when the defense lost the game it was RAC. Same applies to OB and the offense.



Really, now you are going to start requiring facts. So should I go back through all your posts and point out every time you gave an opinion and not facts. None of us are in the Texans .org so none of us have “facts” and neither do any of the reporters everyone likes to quote. If hard facts are the requirement then here is then here is one.

Kubiak with the Texans: 8 seasons with the Texans. 3 winning seasons, 2 division titles, 2 playoff wins.

O’Brien with the Texans: 6 seasons with the Texans. 5 winning seasons, 4 division titles, 2 playoff wins.

Does that tell the whole story, hell no but those are the only “facts” we have and if you look at them they say OB is the better coach.
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The biggest fact with OB is 4 blow-outs in the play-offs.
And a win over a QB that doesn't even belongs in the NFL.
 
76Texan said:
Oh, there are more facts coming, you can rest assured.
Pray tell me where I present opinions as facts in this thread.

.....

Facts are everywhere in the OP.
You have yet to counter them.
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I'm not trying to counter them because I dont care. Kubiak didn't take them team past the 2nd round and I dont foresee OB taking this team past the second round. Difference is we moved on from Kubiak.

Honestly I'm not sure what you are trying to prove or disprove. Kubiak isnt coming back, OB isnt leaving for at least 2-3 years, no one is really happy about but some seem to realize we cant do anything about it and constantly posting complaints on these forums isnt going to change it.

You want me to say Kubiak is and was better than OB sure if that will make you happy. Doesnt change the fact OB is here and Kubiak isnt.
 
maverick512000 said:
I'm not trying to counter them because I dont care. Kubiak didn't take them team past the 2nd round and I dont foresee OB taking this team past the second round. Difference is we moved on from Kubiak.

Honestly I'm not sure what you are trying to prove or disprove. Kubiak isnt coming back, OB isnt leaving for at least 2-3 years, no one is really happy about but some seem to realize we cant do anything about it and constantly posting complaints on these forums isnt going to change it.

You want me to say Kubiak is and was better than OB sure if that will make you happy. Doesnt change the fact OB is here and Kubiak isnt.
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It's more important to me that steelb responds because he was the one that asks for this thread.

And oh, BTW, the second win was due to the FACT that OB borrowed from the future.
 
76Texan said:
It's more important to me that steelb responds because he was the one that asks for this thread.

And oh, BTW, the second win was due to the FACT that OB borrowed from the future.
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So you made an entire thread just to argue with Steel? Man he really is living inside people’s heads. I gotta admit I am impressed. So let’s say that Steel says that Kubiak was better than OB, what will you have achieved? OB will still be the king of Kirby, Kubiak will still not be here and in another week or so we will find some other variation of the same topics to argue over.

Oh and nobodies mind will have been changed about anything.
 
maverick512000 said:
So you made an entire thread just to argue with Steel? Man he really is living inside people’s heads. I gotta admit I am impressed. So let’s say that Steel says that Kubiak was better than OB, what will you have achieved? OB will still be the king of Kirby, Kubiak will still not be here and in another week or so we will find some other variation of the same topics to argue over.

Oh and nobodies mind will have been changed about anything.
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Oh, I have fun with him; don't you worry about that.
 
76Texan said:
Myself, I had brought one point (drafting and player development - in the OP) that gives the first score to Kubiak as nobody can refute it yet.
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I’m not so sure Kubiak’s drafting was all that good, myself.

Okoye was an absolute clanger, as were most of his mid-round selections.

His system went against the grain at the time and so he was able to piece together his OL from later round picks.

His final draft he seemed to take an awful lot of flyers on players with character issues, none of which worked out at a time when we desperately needed some solid depth.

OB’s record with first round picks is terrible, though. Especially the number he’s paid forward. The deal to get rid of Osweiler was particularly hideous when you consider that they sat on their hands with the cap space they opened up. They could have carried him on the roster that year and kept their picks.

Neither can be viewed too positively. At least Kubiak knew what he was looking for in a player on his side of the ball.
 
76Texan said:
Developing players? NO

Kubiak was able to develop some UDFAs and low-round draft picks, cast-offs, you name it.

Besides, Rick Smith brought all the goods for Kubiak from 2007 on, just the same.
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And they have about the same record as BOB does.

Sad thing is RS and Kubiak were aligned and grew up in the same system.

BOB/RS aligned? LMAO, and again still about the same mediocre record.
 
TheKDog said:
@schadjoe: Bill O’Brien noted of Laremy Tunsil: “I feel really good about being able to get a proven left tackle to protect Deshaun Watson. They’re hard to draft. They’re hard to develop.”

Our new GM admitted last year that drafting and developing is too hard for him
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Well, I guess he doesn't have to worry about that now.
 
76Texan said:
I don't see how you can call it a draw when:
(1) You agree that Kubiak is a better game manager with a legit scheme.
(2) You haven't refuted how Kubiak failed in the draft as compared to O'Brien's draft record that I had laid out in the OP.
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Because RS/Kubiak were aligned, RS/BOB weren't aligned and RS was calling the shots in the warroom. Dont believe me, then believe Cal. Look at the actions Cal's taken since RS left the building and the different way BOB's gone about acquiring players since RS left.
 
powda said:
I didn't see your op post and didn't realize I had anything to refute. I'll look for it. One of kubes biggest downfalls was his allegiance to guys like Bush on defense. Do you have a case study on defense and special teams vs the other?

I don't have a horse in the race and openly said I have no ideal how our draft picks compare to other teams. Or how the 2 coaches compare in that regard. What's the winning percentage for each while coaching here? Ultimately I think we're trying hard to date the least hefty girl at a Jenny craig convention. I can be swayed.
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Yep, looks like we're going to spend this offseason debating whether Kubiak/BOB are mediocre HC's. The answer is both were very mediocre and worked with a very mediocre owner who was/is more concerned with making $$$$ than putting a producy on the field that Houston can be proud of.

Hey Cal, prove me wrong and spend the $$$$ on Byron Jones and Suh this offseason. You've still got DW4 on his rookie contract and an option yr.
 
thunderkyss said:
I'm not yearning for Kubiak. But there are times where it's appropriate to say, "Kubiak did more with less." & some people can't handle it even though they know it's true.
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Mediocrity reigned under Kubiak and still does under BOB.

The difference is under Kubiak the GM/HC were aligned or atleast should've been.

Under BOB the GM/HC weren't aligned at all for 4 yrs and I can make a case that the GM was trying to get the HC fired more than trying to help him. #Dysfunctional
 
I would have liked to see what BOB could have done with Kubiak's roster. He had Matt Schaub, Arian Foster, Andre Johnson and a really good defense all in their prime led by Wade Phillips. Comparing coaches is difficult when you have to factor in the roster they have.
 
TheKDog said:
So every bad pick is Rick Smith's. Every good pick is obrien's. But under Kubiak, every good pick is Rick Smith's.
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Yes, when Kubiak got fired RS took over personnel. When Smithiak was here there was true collaboration.

If you dont believe this then ask yourself how did BOB become not only HC but also GM?
 
76Texan said:
When the Texans won with defense, was that Crennel play calling that was good enough or was it O'Brien?




Likewise how?

What I read from these paragraphs are that:
You "think" Hoyer and Mallett were OB's hand pick guys, and you "hear rumor" that O'Brien wanted Jimmy G but Rick Smith took Savage instead.
You "guess" that Kubiak didn't have much say who was brought in after round 10 or 11.

I don't SEE any facts.
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Of course you don't and never will.

Facts? Mediocre is the common denominator. You just like Kuniak's brand of mediocre better than BOB's brand of mediocre. That is all.
 
maverick512000 said:
Kubiak didn't take them team past the 2nd round and I dont foresee OB taking this team past the second round. Difference is we moved on from Kubiak.
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Before Kubiak this team had never had a winning season. In eight years we only had two losing seasons. We won the division twice. Were never one & done in the playoffs. This team was better when Kubiak left than when he got here

O'Brien had inherited a team that had won a playoff game in two of its three previous seasons. We have had one losing season in six years, won the division three of the last six, but still can't get past the divisional round. IMO that's what O'Brien was brought in to do.
 
thunderkyss said:
Before Kubiak this team had never had a winning season. In eight years we only had two losing seasons. We won the division twice. Were never one & done in the playoffs. This team was better when Kubiak left than when he got here

O'Brien had inherited a team that had won a playoff game in two of its three previous seasons. We have had one losing season in six years, won the division three of the last six, but still can't get past the divisional round. IMO that's what O'Brien was brought in to do.
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We only had 4 seasons as a franchise before Kubiak took over - and even then it took Kubiak 4 more years to get us a winning season.
 
maverick512000 said:
So you made an entire thread just to argue with Steel? Man he really is living inside people’s heads. I gotta admit I am impressed. So let’s say that Steel says that Kubiak was better than OB, what will you have achieved? OB will still be the king of Kirby, Kubiak will still not be here and in another week or so we will find some other variation of the same topics to argue over.

Oh and nobodies mind will have been changed about anything.
Click to expand...

For the record I think BOB/Kubiak are both avg/mediocre HC's they're just mediocre in different ways.
 
thunderkyss said:
Before Kubiak this team had never had a winning season. In eight years we only had two losing seasons. We won the division twice. Were never one & done in the playoffs. This team was better when Kubiak left than when he got here

O'Brien had inherited a team that had won a playoff game in two of its three previous seasons. We have had one losing season in six years, won the division three of the last six, but still can't get past the divisional round. IMO that's what O'Brien was brought in to do.
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I agree OB was brought in to get us past the divisional round and so far I haven’t seen anything that says he can/will do that. I’ve never said otherwise, I just think Kubiak had hit his wall here in Houston as well and taken us as far as he could.

That’s actually not a reflection on either as a HC, just like how some players that were meh on one team become all pros on another some coaches work better in different systems. BB wasn’t anything to write home about in Cleveland.

Maybe it would be more accurate to say as the Texan’s HC both are mediocre, but seeing as this is the Texans forums we really only care about their time as the Texans HC. At least that’s all I care about in regards to these forums.
 
RGV82 said:
Yes. We never had a winning season under Kubiak until we had Arian Foster and Brian Cushing. Like I have always said, I would LOVE to have seen what BOB would have done with the 2009-2012 Texans.
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Honestly Foster wouldn’t have been what he was if he had been under OB. RBs in OB’s world are meant to be bulldozers that plow a path through the defense, it’s why the only RB we’ve had that looked decent has been Hyde. Foster was so great because he could do every job you could want a RB to do so while he could be a power back just using him that way would be a waste.

Honestly if I had to pick one guy I wish the Texans could have gotten a couple of years back in F/A it was Bell. It was never going to happen but he is exactly the kind of RB that fits the OB system. I had hoped getting Johnson was a sign that it was changing but....no.
 
I won't chime in on which was the better HC. In regards to overall results, they've been about the same.

I will say, though, that they were both brought in as offensive-minded coaches. Kubiak was clearly the superior offensive coach in all aspects... developing players, utilizing skillsets, play design and play calling.
 
maverick512000 said:
Honestly Foster wouldn’t have been what he was if he had been under OB. RBs in OB’s world are meant to be bulldozers that plow a path through the defense, it’s why the only RB we’ve had that looked decent has been Hyde. Foster was so great because he could do every job you could want a RB to do so while he could be a power back just using him that way would be a waste.
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I am not fully disagreeing with you, but to be fair, Lamar Miller is the only RB other than Hyde who has over 200 carries in a season under BOB. Not much to really compare to. Alfred Blue had a couple 150 carries seasons by "default". Do you really think Lamar Miller or Alfred Blue would have been that much better playing for Kubiak??
 
steelbtexan said:
Because RS/Kubiak were aligned, RS/BOB weren't aligned and RS was calling the shots in the warroom. Dont believe me, then believe Cal. Look at the actions Cal's taken since RS left the building and the different way BOB's gone about acquiring players since RS left.
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It's easier when you spend two future 1st and a second.
You get the players sooner, so you get better results in the short term.
It didn't pay off in the big picture though, and soon the decline will follow by the law of average.

The same same results don't mean roughly equal on the coaching level.
But there are things to lay out before coming to a final conclusion.

I have family visiting from out of state so won't have as much time as I'd like, but the "facts" will be presented little by little.

A bit similar to the KJax/Allen debate in the past.
 
76Texan said:
It's easier when you spend two future 1st and a second.
You get the players sooner, so you get better results in the short term.
It didn't pay off in the big picture though, and soon the decline will follow by the law of average.

The same same results don't mean roughly equal on the coaching level.
But there are things to lay out before coming to a final conclusion.

I have family visiting from out of state so won't have as much time as I'd like, but the "facts" will be presented little by little.

A bit similar to the KJax/Allen debate in the past.
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It's been proven that all they really spent on Tunsil was an extra 1st. Well worth it for a player of Tunsil's ability.
 
welsh texan said:
I’m not so sure Kubiak’s drafting was all that good, myself.

Okoye was an absolute clanger, as were most of his mid-round selections.

His system went against the grain at the time and so he was able to piece together his OL from later round picks.

His final draft he seemed to take an awful lot of flyers on players with character issues, none of which worked out at a time when we desperately needed some solid depth.

OB’s record with first round picks is terrible, though. Especially the number he’s paid forward. The deal to get rid of Osweiler was particularly hideous when you consider that they sat on their hands with the cap space they opened up. They could have carried him on the roster that year and kept their picks.

Neither can be viewed too positively. At least Kubiak knew what he was looking for in a player on his side of the ball.
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All of this will be addressed.
Like I said, when it was KJax vs. Allen (partially), I came at it with great length.
No rock shall be left unturned.

The system works well, yes.
But there are always talents at the collegiate level that a ZBS can tap into today.
Look at the Niners, the Vikings, the Bills, the Panthers, the Packers, the Chiefs, the Eagles, the Hawks.
Lots of teams are using it over the years, and even now.
Kubiak still has success everywhere he goes, especially considering the short time he's been having at these later stops.

*** Even the Texans used the ZBS from time to time.
 
The second point I'd like to make is the roster that these two HCs inherited when they first arrived to Houston.
I'm going to go through it slowly so that people can have a chance to chip in.
I may overlook or forget something.

....................

Kube’s inheritance:
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/htx/2005_roster.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/htx/2006_roster.htm

In 2005, the Texans no. 1 RB was Domanick (Davis) Williams who played in 11 games
230 rushes for 976 yards, 2 td, & 39 catches for 337 yards and 4 td
https://www.chron.com/sports/texans/article/Texans-reward-Davis-with-5-year-21-1-million-1494904.php

Before the season started, the Texans had re-upped him.
$5M bonus, of which only $1M was charged in 2005, and $4M to be applied from year 2006 forward.
$8 million in total guaranteed money, of which only $1.38M was charged in the 2005 cap space.
He never played a down for Kubiak, yet cost $6.62 in cap space; money that could be spent on a good free agent at that point in time when the pay scale was still low.
.................

In contrast, when the Texans resigned Foster in 2012, the $20.75 million guaranteed was all paid out in 2012-13.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/miami-dolphins/arian-foster-7982/cash-earnings/

O’Brien had the luxury of holding on to Foster for just $6M in 2014,
to the tune of 1,246 yards rushing (8 TDs), and 38 catches for 327 yards (5 TDs).
.................

So, which HC had the advantage here?
 
76Texan said:
Nope, the Texans got better from a single first rounder: Duane Brown.
Did you forget that?
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What does this have to do with Tunsil?

You obviously see Tunsil in a different light than I do. The forced trade of DB is what eventaully forced the Tunsil trade. Who could they have drafted in last yrs draft that would've been remotely as good as Tunsil is as we speak right now and for the next decade for that matter?
 
76Texan said:
The second point I'd like to make is the roster that these two HCs inherited when they first arrived to Houston.
I'm going to go through it slowly so that people can have a chance to chip in.
I may overlook or forget something.

....................

Kube’s inheritance:
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/htx/2005_roster.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/htx/2006_roster.htm

In 2005, the Texans no. 1 RB was Domanick (Davis) Williams who played in 11 games
230 rushes for 976 yards, 2 td, & 39 catches for 337 yards and 4 td
https://www.chron.com/sports/texans/article/Texans-reward-Davis-with-5-year-21-1-million-1494904.php

Before the season started, the Texans had re-upped him.
$5M bonus, of which only $1M was charged in 2005, and $4M to be applied from year 2006 forward.
$8 million in total guaranteed money, of which only $1.38M was charged in the 2005 cap space.
He never played a down for Kubiak, yet cost $6.62 in cap space; money that could be spent on a good free agent at that point in time when the pay scale was still low.
.................

In contrast, when the Texans resigned Foster in 2012, the $20.75 million guaranteed was all paid out in 2012-13.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/miami-dolphins/arian-foster-7982/cash-earnings/

O’Brien had the luxury of holding on to Foster for just $6M in 2014,
to the tune of 1,246 yards rushing (8 TDs), and 38 catches for 327 yards (5 TDs).
.................

So, which HC had the advantage here?
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It doesn't matter both Kubiak/BOB inherited 2-14 teams and have close to the same record.
 
maverick512000 said:
Likewise with a Kubiak I’d guess by around 10 or 11 he didn’t get much say in who was brought in. So no I think pretty much every draft pick from about 10 to when he left was on RS, good and bad.
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Nonsense. Rick was getting him the guys he wanted. Kubiak actually did his research
 
maverick512000 said:
No Wade Phillips play calling was good enough to win a SB, Elway handed Kubiak a team built for the Super Bowl and it was all around the defense. All Kubiak has to do was babysit it and use the offense to score a few points, don’t turn the ball over and let the defense rest. Kubiak knew his job and Manning did to, manage the game and win with defense. That’s why Osweiler was benched even though he was actually having wetter season than Manning, Osweiler wanted to win it with offense and that was never going to happen.
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He made osweiler look good enough for O'Brien to gizz his pants and give him a massive contract.

Peyton barely had an arm and he managed to get enough out of him.

He called it perfectly. The offense looked better with those guys than obrien's with Watson, which is really sad
 
steelbtexan said:
Yes, when Kubiak got fired RS took over personnel. When Smithiak was here there was true collaboration.

If you dont believe this then ask yourself how did BOB become not only HC but also GM?
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They worked together as has been reported many times. He is now gm because he wants the power to make incredibly dumb decisions others would sensibly oppose. He wants "consensus" which means anyone who disagrees with an idea is fired
 
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maverick512000 said:
Meh, I won't speak for Kdog but for me the punching back and forth is fun. Doesn't mean I dont mean what I say but also doesn't mean I have any real hard feelings. I've told Kdog before I actually have a lot of respect for him in that unlike some other posters he doesnt just put anybody that talks crap to him on ignore. He takes the hit and then gives one back.
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I feel the same! This is a forum right? It's meant to discuss things we don't always agree on. It's not personal and it's how we can learn new things even if we don't always change our minds
 
RGV82 said:
We only had 4 seasons as a franchise before Kubiak took over - and even then it took Kubiak 4 more years to get us a winning season.
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Correct. 4 seasons where this organization went backwards from its inception. Kubiak had a retirement home of overpaid past their prime "athletes" he had to manage through. We had no cap space & little talent to show for the capital we spent.

In his 2nd season the team didn't finish with a losing record. It wasn't a winning record, but it wasn't a losing record.

O'Brien had other issues to deal with & overcome. But nothing like Kubiak had to deal with.
 
steelbtexan said:
It doesn't matter both Kubiak/BOB inherited 2-14 teams and have close to the same record.
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I know it will come to this, but I will still lay it all out for you, brother.

Regarding the no. 1 RB, he's like a car that you need to go to places, right?

Kubiak got saddled with a car loan that he never took out, and still didn't have a car to drive.

OB got a good car for cheap without having to do anything.
This car was in the shop basically for the whole 2013, which contributed to 2-14.

With Foster, the Texans wouldn't have been 2-14; there were many close losses.

So, NO.
O'Brien only inherited 2-14 on paper.
 
thunderkyss said:
Correct. 4 seasons where this organization went backwards from its inception. Kubiak had a retirement home of overpaid past their prime "athletes" he had to manage through. We had no cap space & little talent to show for the capital we spent.

In his 2nd season the team didn't finish with a losing record. It wasn't a winning record, but it wasn't a losing record.

O'Brien had other issues to deal with & overcome. But nothing like Kubiak had to deal with.
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Kubiak also improved the offense every year. In fact with Carr he had an average offense... Same as obrien with Watson

Unfortunately we are going to go through a very long rebuilding period with the next coach as he works through obrien's terrible contracts and limited draft picks
 
TheKDog said:
He made osweiler look good enough for O'Brien to gizz his pants and give him a massive contract.

Peyton barely had an arm and he managed to get enough out of him.

He called it perfectly. The offense looked better with those guys than obrien's with Watson, which is really sad
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There were a lot of dropped balls, too.
Especially in the play-offs.
I had discussed this with others on a thread in either the NFL section or the draft section.

This was why many Broncos fans turned sour on DT, the receiver that the Texans rented for half a season.

But maybe we shouldn't stray too far???
 
76Texan said:
In fact, Foster was known to be a guy that mostly runs between tackles at U of Tennessee.
He didn't have the glide and cut until he got to Houston.

Nor the outside zone run.
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We brought in another undrafted guy with Foster, also had a good college career but fell out of favor as a senior. Can't remember his name. But I remember that preseason thinking he would be the one to make the team. I was a little upset we held on to Foster.

Shows what I know.
 
RGV82 said:
I am not fully disagreeing with you, but to be fair, Lamar Miller is the only RB other than Hyde who has over 200 carries in a season under BOB. Not much to really compare to. Alfred Blue had a couple 150 carries seasons by "default". Do you really think Lamar Miller or Alfred Blue would have been that much better playing for Kubiak??
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Blue no he was what he was, decent second back to give the main guy rest. Miller yeah I kind of do because Miller whole thing was speed. Hell we brought him in because he out ran our entire defense. Some backs like Smith or Sanders can use that speed up the middle because they can stop and turn on a dime. Miller is no Smith or Sanders, he had to have at least a little be of open space to get ovine and rarely do you get that running up the middle.
 
thunderkyss said:
1 pick & two years to be comparable to what we got in Tunsil.
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For the first year with the Texans, yes.

But I don't see the footwork in Tunsil to reach the All-Pro level.

I need to spend more time studying him before I make a final call though.
 
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