Does it really matter?
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Texans don’t plan to hire a G.M. in 2020
- Thread starter TheKDog
- Start date
Does it really matter?
Texan Asylum
Hall of Fame
Texan Asylum
Hall of Fame
I also believe that BoB is trying to 'shoe horn" DW into his idea of how this offense should look instead of building an offense around DW's strengths and talents...much like Andy Reed is doing with Mahomes. We seen glimpses of what it could be when OB first put DW in when he replaced Savage.
Seegara
Guitar Picker, Dog Lover, Woodworker
Amen. The team put itself in must win NOW mode with its trades, and to justify them it must not only win now, it must win the SB or else. And since the Texans aren't going to win the SB, Billy the Perp just walks away dusting off his hands and leaves the wreckage to somebody else.
Agreed, but that doesn't answer the question
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
He could do a better job like Reid or Harbaugh. I wouldn’t disagree that OB tries to run his system instead of looking to capitalize on the strengths and hide weaknesses. You will get no argument from me.
I would also add we need to stop this Jekyl and Hyde offense. We need more consistency.
Texan Asylum
Hall of Fame
You wrote "but how much of this success is on DW's talent and ability rather than the system in place?" and I asked if that mattered. Still waiting for that answer
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
If OB is in charge of the draft again, we'll go with another TE.
Well duh! The last 3 drafted have just 25 catches this year.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
I think what's bothering alot of people is that if it does blow up in our face and we go into this rebuild mode, we don't have two 1st's and a 2nd round draft pick the next two seasons to help with this rebuild. We are sort of putting all of our eggs in this BOB basket, at least for the next two seasons.
I'll be ok with this if it does work out in the this small window. I just don't feel confident that we continue to give additional power to a guy that hasn't proven to do his one primary job well.
Texaninlild
Veteran
So I have noticed that Mollywhopper = Debbiedowner on most all threads.
Texan Asylum
Hall of Fame
Hmmm, now you got me looking at this from another side. I would say right off, sure it matters if for some unforeseen reason that DW is taken out of the equation; but on the other hand, if you build an offense around one player, like I said earlier, and he IS taken out of the equation, then you can't reinvent the wheel in mid-stride. Interesting question.
I'm just happy that the Texans are appearing to be a successful team for now
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
The biggest rebuild we would have is the front and back office. The “rebuild” isn’t like what Kubiak had to do. We don’t have these huge holes at different positions. The only argument to be had is if we lose Tunsil after franchising him for one or two years. Outside of that - who could we lose that couldn’t be replaced with a draft pick in the 3rd round?
People can’t comprehend that the 1st and 2nd round draft picks are already on the team. They haven’t been lost. Just with any draft pick, you have to see if the player works out (which Tunsil has shown he will. Just need the contract signed.) Just like we did with Mario Williams, Clowney (yes I know the trade was bad) and most middle round draft picks we have missed on during the RS days.
Texan Asylum
Hall of Fame
And I am too...it's been an awkward, bipolar, season so far. I hope above all hope that the New England win was the turning point of the season. It very well could be the 'thing' this team needed to see to show them they have what it takes to go far into the playoffs...and maybe even win it all. Call me a homer, but it can happen.
Texan Asylum
Hall of Fame
Yep, a number of our first picks haven't panned out too well.
Rich Schmidt
Myopicone
I am not sure I agree with this win now talk, we don't have a draft etc. I agree leadership is about delegation, but, let's see what happened DURING BOB having multiple hats.
We rebuilt the secondary on the fly. It cost us the 3rd rd pick from Seattle for Clowney for Conley, Hargraeves was a freebe as was Adams for Safety and room leadership. We have great depth now with Roby, Conley, V, Jjo and LJ. JJo may retire and Admas will be gone, so resign Roby and no further draft capital needed for secondary. So instead of waiting, then developing a high pick, the so called overloaded flat organisation fixed this during the year for a third.
RB, we have a productive tandem in Duke and Carlos. Need to make a decision to resign Carlos and/or draft or develop a UDFA RB. Miller is gone. Don't need high draft capital, already too many offensive weapons.
WR, Nuk, Fuller, Stills gives us a lot of punch. Can find a Carter or Keke somewhere
TE, are set, we even have to see if Warring is any good.
QB is fine.
OL, lot's of young talent, focus more on development (new coach...)
LB's, BMAC, Zach, Scarlett, Jacob Martin, Mercilus. Mingo gone, Kalambayi is a good ST and backup. Cole probably bck after rehab. Probably need to inject a high pick on edge here.
DL, Reader, Dunn, Blackson, JJ, Watkins. Solid group
Safeties, all good here
So the biggest offseason issue is contracts I think. Historically this is a strength. FA decisions, Roby, Mercilus, Jjo, Dunn, Addae, Reader Cole. Offense McCarron, Hyde, Fells, Rod JOhnson. Extend early, Tunsil, DW4, maybe talk to Cunningham
My take is people behind the scenes is doing their job very well and BOB actually lets this happen. We jumped on Hyde, Conley, VH, seemed to know Jacob Martin could chase QB's, etc. So it does seem to be working and just because we are doing things different does not make it wrong or bad. We basically lost some draft picks for players that could be more evaluated by their time in the NFL for skill sets, team fit, culture fit so better chance of hitting and they were further developed, but lose some early years of cheap contracts and maybe some boom or bust drafts.
PS, I am down as BOB is middling, could do better and could do worse. I always saw him as too conservative and such. 2019 is not conservative on or off the field, so I am optimistic some things are changing, but change is slow. He even took a TO in the not my job moment against the Pats one year later. I do think Cal has given him some feedback and as many of you say, DW4 fixes a lot of ills!
We rebuilt the secondary on the fly. It cost us the 3rd rd pick from Seattle for Clowney for Conley, Hargraeves was a freebe as was Adams for Safety and room leadership. We have great depth now with Roby, Conley, V, Jjo and LJ. JJo may retire and Admas will be gone, so resign Roby and no further draft capital needed for secondary. So instead of waiting, then developing a high pick, the so called overloaded flat organisation fixed this during the year for a third.
RB, we have a productive tandem in Duke and Carlos. Need to make a decision to resign Carlos and/or draft or develop a UDFA RB. Miller is gone. Don't need high draft capital, already too many offensive weapons.
WR, Nuk, Fuller, Stills gives us a lot of punch. Can find a Carter or Keke somewhere
TE, are set, we even have to see if Warring is any good.
QB is fine.
OL, lot's of young talent, focus more on development (new coach...)
LB's, BMAC, Zach, Scarlett, Jacob Martin, Mercilus. Mingo gone, Kalambayi is a good ST and backup. Cole probably bck after rehab. Probably need to inject a high pick on edge here.
DL, Reader, Dunn, Blackson, JJ, Watkins. Solid group
Safeties, all good here
So the biggest offseason issue is contracts I think. Historically this is a strength. FA decisions, Roby, Mercilus, Jjo, Dunn, Addae, Reader Cole. Offense McCarron, Hyde, Fells, Rod JOhnson. Extend early, Tunsil, DW4, maybe talk to Cunningham
My take is people behind the scenes is doing their job very well and BOB actually lets this happen. We jumped on Hyde, Conley, VH, seemed to know Jacob Martin could chase QB's, etc. So it does seem to be working and just because we are doing things different does not make it wrong or bad. We basically lost some draft picks for players that could be more evaluated by their time in the NFL for skill sets, team fit, culture fit so better chance of hitting and they were further developed, but lose some early years of cheap contracts and maybe some boom or bust drafts.
PS, I am down as BOB is middling, could do better and could do worse. I always saw him as too conservative and such. 2019 is not conservative on or off the field, so I am optimistic some things are changing, but change is slow. He even took a TO in the not my job moment against the Pats one year later. I do think Cal has given him some feedback and as many of you say, DW4 fixes a lot of ills!
dream_team
Hall of Fame
Besides Tunsil, I'm also worried about Mercilus and Watt. At a lesser degree, worried about Reader, Cunningham, Roby & Fuller.
I won't list Watson because there's absolutely no way we should let him go.
BTW, I fixed it for ya (see bolded)
Texan Asylum
Hall of Fame
Very good analysis and points all around.
lol! Amateur Hour on Kirby Drive.
Rapoport with his "Sources say" article. Someone is leaking it for whatever reason, but it's Bush League at best.
Good franchises keep this crap in house. Nobody should have any idea what the Texans FO plans to do in 2020.
Either the source sees a dumpster fire on the horizon, or the source is pro-O'Brien and is getting ahead of it.
O'Brien has not earned the respect and amount of power that he's been given with this franchise. (i.e. *cough*1 playoff win*cough*)
Daddy McNair is not around to bring any sort of balanced perspective, so now Cal can BFF O'Brien and just run it into the ground. Like a chimpanzee with an AK-47.
As long as we have #4, this team has a chance. But, it also masks some serious deficiencies in various areas. His talent can only put so many sprinkles on the brownie.
Rapoport with his "Sources say" article. Someone is leaking it for whatever reason, but it's Bush League at best.
Good franchises keep this crap in house. Nobody should have any idea what the Texans FO plans to do in 2020.
Either the source sees a dumpster fire on the horizon, or the source is pro-O'Brien and is getting ahead of it.
O'Brien has not earned the respect and amount of power that he's been given with this franchise. (i.e. *cough*1 playoff win*cough*)
Daddy McNair is not around to bring any sort of balanced perspective, so now Cal can BFF O'Brien and just run it into the ground. Like a chimpanzee with an AK-47.
As long as we have #4, this team has a chance. But, it also masks some serious deficiencies in various areas. His talent can only put so many sprinkles on the brownie.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
I'd say more likely that this "reporter" heard something some where and decided to write an article about it. Texans are actually VERY good at keeping things in house. Want proof? Why was Gaine fired? I don't mean theories of Caserio being hired or BoB staging a take over or the racial lawsuit I mean the real, evidence backed reason he was fired or even a statement from him or actual people in the F/O office.
Also Bob McNair didn't exactly have a good track record of "balanced perspective" or are we going to rewrite history on that to and forget that whole RS/BoB fight with McNair being "the deciding vote"? Cal has actually made bigger changes to the F/O in a shorter time that his father ever did, you may disagree with those changes but you can't say he hasn't rocked the boat.
As far as BoB not having earned it what does that even mean? How does a first time GM "earn it"? Ok he has one playoff win, didn't realize you had to have won in the playoffs to be a GM but whatever. You go back and look at NE history and BB didn't have a stunning record for franchises when he was handed the keys to the kingdom. Best thing he had done really was start rebuilding the Browns before they moved to Baltimore and he got kicked to the curb and then he screwed over the Jets by writing his resignation on a napkin and announcing he was leaving at the press conference that was called to announce him being named HC. In fact when he was given the keys, pre-Tom Brady and six SB wins, everyone thought Kraft had lost his mind and that NE was doomed.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Tunsil we actually have for another year before we have to sign him and even then he can be tagged. It's not what I hope happens but everyone is acting like it was a one season rental and it wasn't even close to that. Watt is what it is and honestly he may be willing to take less money in order to finish out here. He's not stupid and he sees the injuries piling up and he knows he's not the same JJ of even 2 years ago so he may just decide to ride it out here if they give him a decent contract.
As for the rest they've all shown flashes but none of them have been the blue chip player that you can trust in every game. Don't get me wrong they've been solid but not to the point where I'd say we couldn't replace them with a F/A signing or 3rd+ round pick. Would it be ideal no but rarely do you get ideal anyway. If a team wants to overpay one of them then its just Honey badger all over again. You can't really say we've been missing him or that KC got a great deal on that one.
Bob McNair would not have fired a GM after 17 months. I feel that's a safe thing to assume. His interviews are clear that he wanted balance at the boardroom table.
Cal hasn't done jack except give O'Brien more power. He's most likely a beta male personality that is used to alphas running the show. His daddy was alpha, and so is Billy O.
It's pretty obvious why Gaine was fired. He was not "aligned" with Bill O'Brien after all. Same for Rick Smith. Specific reasons we will probably never know, but big picture is fairly simple to ascertain with the use of logic, reason, and simple understanding of basic human nature.
As far as earned it, I'm talking about the power that has been granted a six-year HC that has one playoff win.
With regards to Belichick, you should read up on your Ravens history. He set up that franchise. He trained Ozzie Newsome, who credited Belichick with setting up the franchise for success. It was well documented in first person interviews on Cleveland '95: A Football Life, which was produced by NFL Films.
And yeah, Kraft gambled and it paid off. Difference is the genius of Belichick was obvious to many insiders, including Bill Parcells. Are you really trying to compare Belichick and O'Brien?? Belichick has been coaching in the NFL since 1975 (including DC on champion NY Giants teams). O'Brien had one gig working with an already HoF HC and QB. It's just silly to try to spin it.
Here, for your reading pleasure:
Please elaborate why you think O'Brien DESERVES this consolidated power?
dream_team
Hall of Fame
I guess the way I look at it is there's only ONE team in the NFL that currently has a HC that doubles as the GM. That is Bill Belichick. What exactly has Bill O'Brien done to warrant the Texans to be the 2nd such franchise? What has he done to deserve more power to be thrusted onto him?
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
Well, the system was in place 3 years before DW4 got here. What did it look like then?
I've commented several times now that the talent on this team is good enough stay in and win games, regardless of play calling, scheme, coaching, etc. But because of play calling, scheme, coaching, they're going to be inconsistent, which they are.
God forbid something happens to Watson, OB isn't going to look as good as he's looking right now. Oh wait, that actually happened once already.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
See I asked you to name facts about Gaine and you can’t do it so it’s back to your theory. You assert “logic” based on your own beliefs and narrative. Nothing about the Gaine situation was simple and if Gaine was fired unfairly why hasn’t he spoken out about it? Again I asked for facts not personal opinion.
I have read my Ravens history, I’m a long time Ravens fan and BB thought he was going to get to go, and had actually been told he was, then the team was moved without him. If you had read what I wrote I said BB started the rebuild process in Cleveland.
Also stop assuming things, I never said I thought he deserved more power I asked you what winning in the playoffs has to do with being a GM since many GMs have never even coached.
Fact is so far it’s working, that’s not spin that’s fact Texans are winning games that no one thought they should win and the roster is deeper than it has been in years. You can go on and on about deserve all you want but no one cares about who deserves what they only care about results.
Again back to this deserve crap, what does any first time GM do to deserve it. Hell for that matter what does any first time anything do to deserve it. Just because only NE has done it is no reason not to try it. We’ve tried about everything else and it hasn’t worked.
I don’t think it will work long term but frankly I don’t care. It’s working for now and worst case scenario is we get set back what, 5 years, 6 maybe? A drop in the bucket for an NFL team life span.
Go ask Detroit or Cleveland or Arizona or Tampa Bay or any New York team fan what real long term disappointment looks like. Texans have been around 17 years, there are teams that haven’t made the playoffs in longer than this team has existed.
BattleBull
Practice Squad
If their master plan all along was to still hire Caseiro why even leak this to the media that they’re standing pat? It really has no upside unless they want to put the pressure on him to leave. And even then it seems counter productive.
dream_team
Hall of Fame
I would say be some type of assistant GM or director of a successful team. To flip the situations... what if a GM fired his HC and named himself the HC, which he's had no prior coaching experience? Crazy, right?
We can go on and on with this. We both hope it works out, so lets leave it at that.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
Sorry. I don’t remember Gaine because I have had ______ last longer than he did at his job.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
Thanks for saying what I was trying to say more smarter. Lol.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I am not for certain
But on a good news front I do have a message on my mobile that O'Brien wants to talk to me after the season. Now back to reality, O'Brien will be there, The Scouting Department representative and probably Easterby. Who else is needed?
badboy
Hall of Fame
You don't think that O'Brien had this in his back pocket? I believe he was okay with Casario but is 100% okay with it as it stands
badboy
Hall of Fame
If Fells leaves in free agency we might need to draft one. We seem to go with three tight ends and one on the practice squadIf OB is in charge of the draft again, we'll go with another TE.
Only time will tell who's right.
What if Brady was the one who took time to develop? Learned not only the game, but true leadership as well.
& What if Peyton was the one that had everything catered to him.
I'd love to have had a Peyton Manning type QB here for the last 14 years, even if it came with only 1 Lombardi.
But 6 Super Bowl championships?
Yeah, ain't nothing saying we're on the Brady path, or the Manning path... or that the Watson path is going to lead anywhere.
Just saying.
Or allow New England to relax & ease up on the Caserio front.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
I want to keep Roby and the rest of our secondary intact. My top priority as of now going into the offseason is pass rush. Scarlett can be upgraded (maybe Martin is that guy?) Maybe you add top grade beef in the defensive line who can stop the run AND get a more consistent rush? Someone to take the torch from Watt?
I want another pick or 2 on ol. Let's get a legit swing tackle instead of clark. Let's get another guy who can play the interior (how long will Fulton be here?)
On special teams: if there is a top tier kicker get him. More importantly, if there's an elite return man get him.
Do NOT draft another gd tight end!
That's only a few picks out of our 2020 draft armory. Let the rest of the draft go bpa.
Outside of player personnel find a new ol coach (finally.) Get the best available at any cost.
Fine all left tackles named Tunsil 25k for every false start.
Instil some discipline in this team for stupid penalties.
Invest more personnel and time in officiating trends / stats so we're better prepared in challenges and reviews.
Hire a clock management guy and listen to him in crunch time.
I dont like hearing on tv a reliant crowd almost as loud for an opposing team as I do for the Texans. Some teams travel better then others. I dunno how we fix that other then fan incentives to keep tickets vs teams like the Steelers...devise a way. You have a marketing department.
Roof time. You guys watched the ravens and niners in the rain? I loved it. Smash mouth football travels in bad weather. I know, I know, we'll keep it closed 99% of the time BUT - if we're facing a finesse team we should be able to out run/muscle and there happens to be heavy rain in the forecast why not open the roof? Let it play to our advantage. Do it once a year.
/end rant.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
McClain in his chat today said that as opposed to Rapaport's report, he feels that Caserio will still be coming to Houston.
badboy
Hall of Fame
perhaps but as of today it does not appear to me that Cal and O'Brien are running anything into the ground. I am not looking at what happened pre-2019 but what I see today. I don't care if Watson was O'Brien's choice or not. I do care how Watson is doing and he seems to be doing very well. I think maybe historically there has been one or two or three QBs who were so good they could mask deficiencies on the rest of the offense. I agree with you 100% on no one should know what our plans are for 2020.
Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
Confirmation right there. No Caserio.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Good points. Roby is going to command a five-year contract as he turns 28 in May of next year if I remember correctly. I expect an average of 13 to 15 million dollars per annum. His injury history and less than 69% overall PFF ranking does concern me. He had a very good game against Patriots but I just can't see giving him that kind of money as of today. He does have time to sell me.
I think our defensive line is set with Blackson, Omenihu and Watt for 2020. I wanted to see more of Watkins butt how do you take time away from JJ Watt for him? Now I see Omenihu passing him up. So there are four players for the DL and I don't see anyone before day 3 around 6.
Clarke is a joke but only brought in Late in the season. I see several udfa being brought in to earn roster spots. I don't want to spend much money backups or Veterans like Henderson.
I realize that it is just me but I do not want rain snow fog to be a part of the game. I want to see football players at their best or I can turn it over and watch the Weather Channel.
My statement stands. The ONLY reason we would wait until AFTER the draft was for Caserio. It was for contractural reasons only and not because somebody thinks that "waiting to get a GM" until after the NFL draft in May is a good plan.
It's not O'Brien's call to make, it's Cal's. Now if you want to make an argument that this is all part of some master plan by O'Brien to "show what he could do" until then...remember that Easterby is still around advising ownership.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Caserio essentially will be a free agent this offseason. That could mean a return to the Patriots or joining another team that could offer him more responsibility and a greater title. It seems that team will not be Houston, however. Or perhaps the Patriots could formalize the fact that Caserio essentially is serving as the team’s top personnel decision-maker and name him general manager or vice president of player personnel. Belichick has made it clear multiple times this season that Caserio handles trade discussions while Belichick coaches.
Read more at: https://nesn.com/2019/12/nfl-rumors-texans-wont-hire-nick-caserio-away-from-patriots-in-2020/
Read more at: https://nesn.com/2019/12/nfl-rumors-texans-wont-hire-nick-caserio-away-from-patriots-in-2020/
Texaninlild
Veteran
After seeing the Patriots roster this year, not sure I would want that.
He has not spoken out for several reasons. It's unprofessional and he most likely wants to work in the NFL again. And have you ever heard of a non-disclosure agreement? It's most likely in his contract, and he's also still getting paid by the Texans, so why kill the golden goose.
Then why are you reaching for a comparison with Belichick's situation and O'Brien? Seems like a desperate argument.
It's a results driven business. Playoff wins > regular season results. At least for the non-pom pom fans.
And btw, most coaches have never been GMs. You won't answer my question: Please elaborate why you think O'Brien DESERVES this consolidated power?
This is truly the definition of myopic.
GMs are not judged in a single season. Or they shouldn't be, but the Texans do it anyway, so I guess I should expect nothing less from some Texans fans.
Then what is your point? Just being a troll?
See, I don't think it will work long term, as well, which is why my perspective reflects that. You, however, seem to be an O'Brien apologist and that's okay. I have no animosity toward any Texans fan. It's been a fun conversation, but obviously we'll just have to agree to disagree (or agree, depending on whatever you're trying to spin).
Fair enough. I hope you're right. NFL history, though, reveals that meddling owners and HCs over their head usually end up running franchises in the ground, deplete draft capital, and leave a salary cap hell behind. Theyv'e got some years to go before any of this comes to fruition, so I'll just enjoy the ride and hope for the best.
That said, I'm not going to deny my natural cynicism and comprehension of historical cycles. Hopefully O'Brien is the genius that Cal is banking on. Otherwise. . .
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
I am not buying what Belicheck is selling. If memory serves, Belicheck handles the Garrapolo trade. Contradicts what he is saying.
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
Again so many assumptions, I keep asking for facts but you don't have any so you fall back on assumptions and "logic". Trouble is your very arguments are killing your original point that the Texans can't keep anything in house. IF he does has a NDA that is keeping him silent then that by its definition is keeping things in house.
Nothing desperate about it, Dream was right that there are only two teams that have ever done the HC/GM combo so therefore NE and BB are the only thing we have to compare it to and my entire point was that when NE first did it BB hadn't shown that he could make it work either and everyone thought Kraft had lost his mind. Its only hindsight now that shows it was a good idea.
And again you completely ignore what I said in favor of hammering home the same point. You keep using the "only one playoff win" as proof that he shouldn't be a GM but then turn around and agree that playoff wins have nothing to do with being a GM. I also did answer your question you just ignored my answer, I said I didn't think he deserves it but I'm not hung up on what people do and don't deserves because that's just asinine. You think winning more would mean he "deserves" it well tell that to all those GMs out there that haven't won crap or hell even been that good in the draft.
You say this but then you continue to beat a dead horse about BoB not deserving more power. GMs are not judged on one season you say but you are judging whether BoB can be a HC and a GM based on less than one season and whats hilarious is you are making this judgement when they are actually having a good year. Guess I should expect nothing less from some Texan fans.
How can I be a troll when you replied to me? Again we come back to this Bill O'Brien "nut hugger" BS that anyone that is willing to acknowledge when he is doing well gets hung with. I have been VERY consistent in what I have said since I got here and the few times I have changed my mind I have acknowledged that I'm changing my mind about something. I don't have to spin anything because unlike some on here when you get down to it I actually don't care what the Texans do. Its not going to affect my day to day life so all this is just for fun. They fire Bill O'Brien tomorrow I'm not going to lose any sleep nor would I if Cal came and said he was selling BoB the team for a dollar.Then what is your point? Just being a troll?
See, I don't think it will work long term, as well, which is why my perspective reflects that. You, however, seem to be an O'Brien apologist and that's okay. I have no animosity toward any Texans fan. It's been a fun conversation, but obviously we'll just have to agree to disagree (or agree, depending on whatever you're trying to spin).
maverick512000
Hall of Fame
That one is complex because rumors and reports said that BB wanted to make Jimmy G the QB of the future but Brady went to Kraft and basically pressured them to trade him. No idea if its true or not but it was reported by the Boston Globe and they are usually pretty pro-Pats.