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2019 Training Camp

TheKDog said:
That would be Henderson and Kelemente?
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Henderson,Davenport, and Sharping have been given the bulk or RT from what i can gather. Fulton, Sharping, Kelemete have been mixing in at RG while Mancz has been playing C in Martins absence. Seems like Kalil has the LT job sowed up. Fingers crossed. Howard has been mixing in at LG/LT and then you have the 3rd stringers like Roderick Johnson who have shown some life, but will probably wind up on the practice squad.

Should think about playing Howard at RT some and see how he can manage it. At least it keeps him playing the edge.
 
thunderkyss said:
I thought the interior played worse than the tackles, especially in the run game. 3rd & short we defaulted to empty backfield, I think because our odds of converting on the ground was next to nil. Mainly because of the interior.

I thought Lamm played allright & felt the Texans thought Henderson was an upgrade. I thought Davenport did well, considering who he is & felt he would continue to improve.

I think Rankin Fulton & Sharping would be 100 times better than the interior we had last year. Allowing our tackles to play on an island.

I understand the importance of OTs, but I always believed you should build from the inside out.

But that's me.
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All solid and important commentary. You are definitely entitled to your opinion, and while a strong argument, in our particular scenario it makes you wonder what the hell this exact same coaching/personnel staff have been doing for the last 6 years with the disastrous amount of OL busts they have managed. From XSF, Allen, and Davenport. To this whole debacle.

I guess I could argue with obscure metrics like pass-block win rates which are used in this article to make a decent point: https://www.espn.com/blog/houston-t...ed-might-not-be-all-the-offensive-lines-fault that our offensive line was average and didnt need the high investment at all - but everyone knows better.

It would imply other areas of concern like Deshaun holding the ball too long (definitely something that could be improved) to the slow developing route tree that the offensive system employs (we talked about that stuff last year too). To what I felt was quite possibly the worst group of blocking TEs I have ever seen on a football field. I dont know how often I had to stop and watch Griffen and company blow assignments and get Watson killed. Enter DArren Fells - good blocker, but bad pass catcher FML. Hopefully Akins or Jordan has improved their blocking enough so that their pass catching can be utilized, or maybe Warring will be a good blocker, but for a system that relies so much on that HBack/TE guy to be a quality blocker it needs to also be dramatically improved for the offensive line as a unit to look better.

All that still wouldnt hide the fact that the offensive line is bereft of talent. My opinion is that the most dynamic and disruptive players tend to come from the DE/OLB positions and those guys are also paid handsomely for what they provide. Sacks, drive killers, TFLs, QB pressures etc... same reason why most OTs get paid more than your inside guys. You could go inside out, but IMO the talent pool for interior linemen is MUCH MUCH larger. Good offensive tackles, with the feet and punch and bend necessary to keep up with those dynamic edge guys are harder to come by, if you are taking a flyer on project guys then how do they get better by playing inside? It also goes back to the the whole "if inside was the problem", then why werent you drafting guys with that in mind? the whole draft was bungled. YOu could have gotten the best/2nd best CB and then picked up your guards in the 2nd or 3rd.

Differing opinions can still be civil. I appreciate your level head and patience in our exchanges so far.
 
Uncle Rico said:
All solid and important commentary. You are definitely entitled to your opinion, and while a strong argument, in our particular scenario it makes you wonder what the hell this exact same coaching/personnel staff have been doing for the last 6 years with the disastrous amount of OL busts they have managed. From XSF, Allen, and Davenport. To this whole debacle.

I guess I could argue with obscure metrics like pass-block win rates which are used in this article to make a decent point: https://www.espn.com/blog/houston-t...ed-might-not-be-all-the-offensive-lines-fault that our offensive line was average and didnt need the high investment at all - but everyone knows better.

It would imply other areas of concern like Deshaun holding the ball too long (definitely something that could be improved) to the slow developing route tree that the offensive system employs (we talked about that stuff last year too). To what I felt was quite possibly the worst group of blocking TEs I have ever seen on a football field. I dont know how often I had to stop and watch Griffen and company blow assignments and get Watson killed. Enter DArren Fells - good blocker, but bad pass catcher FML. Hopefully Akins or Jordan has improved their blocking enough so that their pass catching can be utilized, or maybe Warring will be a good blocker, but for a system that relies so much on that HBack/TE guy to be a quality blocker it needs to also be dramatically improved for the offensive line as a unit to look better.

All that still wouldnt hide the fact that the offensive line is bereft of talent. My opinion is that the most dynamic and disruptive players tend to come from the DE/OLB positions and those guys are also paid handsomely for what they provide. Sacks, drive killers, TFLs, QB pressures etc... same reason why most OTs get paid more than your inside guys. You could go inside out, but IMO the talent pool for interior linemen is MUCH MUCH larger. Good offensive tackles, with the feet and punch and bend necessary to keep up with those dynamic edge guys are harder to come by, if you are taking a flyer on project guys then how do they get better by playing inside? It also goes back to the the whole "if inside was the problem", then why werent you drafting guys with that in mind? the whole draft was bungled. YOu could have gotten the best/2nd best CB and then picked up your guards in the 2nd or 3rd.

Differing opinions can still be civil. I appreciate your level head and patience in our exchanges so far.
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First your last paragraph surprises me more than that it was a shock. TBH, I looked twice to see who posted. Excellent comments worded well in my opinion. I do not agree that the offensive line is bereft of talent but do agree that at this point it does appear to be average. Fortunately an average offensive line playing together for 16 games would be all Watson needs to take us deeper into the playoffs. I do agree with the majority of your post. Especially that we bungled the draft. Differing opinions can be civil and I look forward to your future posts. :clap:
 
Anyone going to the open practice? If so, jot down some notes to share with the rest of us. Thanks in advance.
 
zshawn10 said:
Ah crap I put all my training camp info in the other training camp thread
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Went looking for your stuff. Saw where Gillaspia is impressing. How could he be impressing when all the brains on this MB totally wasted him and the pick, lol.
 
Uncle Rico said:
You could go inside out, but IMO the talent pool for interior linemen is MUCH MUCH larger. Good offensive tackles, with the feet and punch and bend necessary to keep up with those dynamic edge guys are harder to come by, if you are taking a flyer on project guys then how do they get better by playing inside? It also goes back to the the whole "if inside was the problem", then why werent you drafting guys with that in mind? the whole draft was bungled. YOu could have gotten the best/2nd best CB and then picked up your guards in the 2nd or 3rd.
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I think you have to look at what was available. The only legit, ready to go LT in this draft was Jonah Williams. Everyone else needed some kind of work. Dillard, Little, & Howard were the only ones projected to play LT. Playing him inside on the left allows him to catch up to the speed of the game, but keeps him learning the left side. I see the reasoning there. I don't agree/disagree with it, just as soon have him start on the right side. But it's nothing to get bent out of shape about.

As far as Guards, again it depends on what is available. Atlanta took two guards in the first.
 
I'm more concerned with the unit as a whole. Wont know till the bullets fly. No one knew how bad it was till Jacksonville week 1 two yrs ago. Last year it didnt get better. So we drafted a few kids. Oh well. OB and his oline coach will be judged week 1.

I literally am numb to all training camp news. Not once did anyone predict we would have a failure at Oline any of the past two yrs.

I we drafted a competent guard. Great. If everyone's else sucks. Look out DW4
 
TheKDog said:
If he's amazing at guard he should get a shot at LT at some point IMO. Kalil is not a long term (or even short term) solution
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That may be their plan. I'm curious to see how many snaps he'll take at LT in preseason game 1. That may give is some insight as to what the Texans think of his future.

Playing guard this early in preseason doesn't mean what many think means.
 
ATXtexanfan said:
I'm more concerned with the unit as a whole. Wont know till the bullets fly. No one knew how bad it was till Jacksonville week 1 two yrs ago. Last year it didnt get better. So we drafted a few kids. Oh well. OB and his oline coach will be judged week 1.

I literally am numb to all training camp news. Not once did anyone predict we would have a failure at Oline any of the past two yrs.

I we drafted a competent guard. Great. If everyone's else sucks. Look out DW4
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Don’t know where Leander is but it can’t be on Earth. Texans lack of skill/depth on the OL the last two years were notorious. Same with S, CB, TE, ST’s, WR........and on.
 
ATXtexanfan said:
I'm more concerned with the unit as a whole. Wont know till the bullets fly. No one knew how bad it was till Jacksonville week 1 two yrs ago. Last year it didnt get better. So we drafted a few kids. Oh well. OB and his oline coach will be judged week 1.

I literally am numb to all training camp news. Not once did anyone predict we would have a failure at Oline any of the past two yrs.

I we drafted a competent guard. Great. If everyone's else sucks. Look out DW4
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Don’t know where Leander is but it can’t be on Earth. Texans lack of skill/depth on the OL the last two years were notorious. Same with S, CB, TE, ST’s, WR........and on.
 
Dejaview said:
Don’t know where Leander is but it can’t be on Earth. Texans lack of skill/depth on the OL the last two years were notorious. Same with S, CB, TE, ST’s, WR........and on.
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Yes, OL and CB have been bad. But S was ok in '19 and WR was strong. TE and special teams were on the coaching.
(Don't know where Leander is? Kidding, right? Pronounced lee-ANN-der, not LEAN-der. One of the best towns in Texas, to the north of Cedar Park. The two have grown into mutual contact, just as Cedar Park now contacts Austin to the south on 183. Leander sports one of the best building material stores and an excellent Mexican restaurant. Put an O before its name and you have spelled one of the world's most poisonous plants.)
 
Seegara said:
Yes, OL and CB have been bad. But S was ok in '19 and WR was strong. TE and special teams were on the coaching.
(Don't know where Leander is? Kidding, right? Pronounced lee-ANN-der, not LEAN-der. One of the best towns in Texas, to the north of Cedar Park. The two have grown into mutual contact, just as Cedar Park now contacts Austin to the south on 183. Leander sports one of the best building material stores and an excellent Mexican restaurant. Put an O before its name and you have spelled one of the world's most poisonous plants.)
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That’s nothing, I had a friend nice that lived up in Greenspoint and didn’t know how to get to Baytown. Some people just stay in a small area and are happy there.
 
TheKDog said:
If he's amazing at guard he should get a shot at LT at some point IMO. Kalil is not a long term (or even short term) solution
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Rankin could move back out to LT, although I haven't heard whether he's taking snaps there this training camp.

It's said here that he doesn't have the feet, but based on what? He was injured in last years training camp, fell behind and then was moved around during the season. He started only 3 games at LT, as a rookie.

If Howard proves to be dominate at LG, I'd move Rankin outside to LT, and leave him there sufficiently long to settle in, so we would know if he could find a permanent spot there on the outside.

But Howard & Rankin should be considered, for now, as our future left side, barring any trade for William's.

Kalil will likely be our starter this season, if he remains healthy, and will possibly split time with one of the younger players, to ease them into the position.

What has gone unsaid, is that with our brutal opening schedule, we need a veteran presence out at LT who can give us solid, quality protection for Watson. If healthy, and reports are that he is, Kalil gives us that.
 
thunderkyss said:
I think you have to look at what was available. The only legit, ready to go LT in this draft was Jonah Williams. Everyone else needed some kind of work. Dillard, Little, & Howard were the only ones projected to play LT. Playing him inside on the left allows him to catch up to the speed of the game, but keeps him learning the left side. I see the reasoning there. I don't agree/disagree with it, just as soon have him start on the right side. But it's nothing to get bent out of shape about.

As far as Guards, again it depends on what is available. Atlanta took two guards in the first.
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So with the ultimate goal being directed towards playing LT is the best position after LT itself to develop and mold a player for that goal LG or RT ?
I can see pros and cons for playing a younger prospect, especially a rookie like Howard at either position.
I appreciate the expertise guys like you and SteelB, Badboy, and et al., have when it comes to offensive line play.
 
IDEXAN said:
So with the ultimate goal being directed towards playing LT is the best position after LT itself to develop and mold a player for that goal LG or RT ?
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I think it's more common to start them on the right side. But with guys like Watt, Cameron Wake, & Von Miller playing on the right I don't think it's as "safe" as it used to be.

Then we know it's not particularly easy to flip from one side to the other in a game. The fact is dropping to your left is different from dropping to your right & that 280 lbs of bad news in front of you is not going to take it easy on you.

So if you're thinking about possibly moving Howard outside if your starter gets hurt, it makes sense to keep him on the left side. & if your plan is to have him starting at LT sometime this year, it makes sense to keep him on the left.
 
thunderkyss said:
I think you have to look at what was available. The only legit, ready to go LT in this draft was Jonah Williams. Everyone else needed some kind of work. Dillard, Little, & Howard were the only ones projected to play LT. Playing him inside on the left allows him to catch up to the speed of the game, but keeps him learning the left side. I see the reasoning there. I don't agree/disagree with it, just as soon have him start on the right side. But it's nothing to get bent out of shape about.

As far as Guards, again it depends on what is available. Atlanta took two guards in the first.
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Then you get caught in the 'drafting for need' vs 'best available' conversation. Taking your highly regarded tackle prospects and moving them inside is still showing a significant talent evaluation shortfall. Instead of the offensive line getting stronger THIS YEAR, now we have to bank that the tackles will become good guards, then cut or demote the existing inside guys and then you pray to the heavens that the lackluster veterans you have on the outside are average, AND THEN you're still where you started .. looking for franchise bookends or taking the lumps at that time in moving those young guys back to the outside if the vets are abysmal. Sorry I just dont see the benefits.

I thought what Ex player Geoff Schwartz had to say about position changes was interesting: https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2019/3...sive-linemen-switch-playoffs-2019-predictions

What is the most difficult position switch for an offensive lineman to make on the O-line that the majority of people think is easy? (ex: OT to OG or LT to RT etc) — @pmeredith77

I get asked this question more than any other. The majority of people believe switching positions is easy because they’ve never done it before. Moving from side to side is easy for some, but most often, it takes a while to adjust. In the immortal words of Josh Sitton, switching from one side to the other is “like wiping your ass with the other hand.”

Everything is awkward and different. I had to switch from the right side to the left side (LG) a couple times in my career. It always went bad. ALWAYS. I was never comfortable at left guard. I’d always punch like I was at right tackle and when I was being bull-rushed, I’d switch my stagger to anchor the bull like a right guard, thus allowing myself to get beat inside.

According to social media, switching from tackle to guard is the “easy” solution for a tackle who’s struggling. Not so fast my friend. If an offensive tackle has good hands, generally has good movement skills but might lack some foot quickness to play tackle, then moving inside could be productive. If an offensive tackle is struggling with his strike and punch location, plus has bad feet, then moving inside is a no-go. Things happen fast at guard. Your hands must be ready for action now. And if you miss with your hands, your base better be good so you’re able to recover.

So in short, moving a struggling OT to OG isn’t easy, and it’s rarely the solution.
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Get to put eyes on our brand new offensive line next week .. im sure everybody will remain level headed after the first preseason game right!? LOL

You're continued use of Atlanta as some sort of beacon of what is the proper way of drafting linemen isnt a very strong one either. Those picks that you are touting were lambasted by most every outlet, and just like the TExans at 23 were criticized for making a "panic move" because their top guy was selected at 13. Same with trading back into the 1st to draft a tackle only to play him at guard? The camp notes I just glossed over has McGary entrenched at the RT spot.

What was available was the best CB in the draft, but since the team shelled out 10Ms for a stopgap in Roby perhaps that would have been a bad selection too? Shrug.
 
Seegara said:
Yes, OL and CB have been bad. But S was ok in '19 and WR was strong. TE and special teams were on the coaching.
(Don't know where Leander is? Kidding, right? Pronounced lee-ANN-der, not LEAN-der. One of the best towns in Texas, to the north of Cedar Park. The two have grown into mutual contact, just as Cedar Park now contacts Austin to the south on 183. Leander sports one of the best building material stores and an excellent Mexican restaurant. Put an O before its name and you have spelled one of the world's most poisonous plants.)
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Dam...how did I not hear about it before. I mean people must be coming from all over the world, even Waco, to check out that building material store and rare good Mexican restaurant!. Just kidding. Thanks for the info. Now if I only knew where Cedar Park is..I Know, its up near a Dallas. Here is a fact. I’m a life long Texan, born in San Antonio, and I’ve never been to Dallas. Been to Fort Worth. Went through the Dallas airport several million times. Why never Dallas? The answer is why? Could care less about that part of Texas. IMO San Antonio, the western Hill Country and the mountain country of far west Texas rules.
 
Uncle Rico said:
Taking your highly regarded tackle prospects and moving them inside is still showing a significant talent evaluation shortfall. Instead of the offensive line getting stronger THIS YEAR, now we have to bank that the tackles will become good guards,
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We're still in the early stages of training camp. Hopefully the staff hasn't made up their minds about who is starting where.

First, they signed Kalil to play LT. They were conservative with his rehab so they haven't seen him "play" until now. So it's prudent to give him every opportunity to show he can play.

Second, playing Howard at LG keeps him in the game & moving forward in his development. Much better than sitting him on the bench or waiting behind the "starter." & if we need him to play LT it should be an easier transition sliding over one spot than flipping from left to right.

& let's watch what happens Aug 8. If Davenport comes in to play the majority of snaps when Kalil & Howard sits, then you're probably more right than not.

But if Howard takes the majority of LT snaps when Kalil sits.... he's most likely the longterm plan for LT. & if he is, is there really anything wrong with having two LTs active on game day that are better than Davenport? (& I like Davenport)
 
Brisco_County said:
There's a good possibility that by the end of the season fans will be saying firing Gaine was a terrible mistake.
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We can only hope that's the case because if so it will probably be because his only complete Draft (2019) turned to be at the very least relatively successful.
 
From Uncle Rico's post "switching from one side to the other is “like wiping your ass with the other hand.” is best explanation I've ever heard for OT switching sides. That actually is easier for some. I've been right hand dominant in all things but have tried just for fun to use left for things occasionally. I still see Davenport as the starting vet continuing at LT barring TWill trade.
 
badboy said:
From Uncle Rico's post "switching from one side to the other is “like wiping your ass with the other hand.” is best explanation I've ever heard for OT switching sides. That actually is easier for some. I've been right hand dominant in all things but have tried just for fun to use left for things occasionally. I still see Davenport as the starting vet continuing at LT barring TWill trade.
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I think it's possible that some guys might be better on one side than another but I don't think that it's anywhere near as pronounced as left hand/right hand coordination differences. I think it's more about footwork and sliding or shuffling left vs right (which I don't think makes a difference for most people). I played on both sides and it was exactly the same for me. The only difference was who I was lined up against -- not which side. Just my experience and would be interested in hearing from anyone else w/ experience w/ playing both sides. I just think it's overplayed on here as another way to say how our coaches are screwing things up by having a guy on the wrong side. Just my 2 cents.
 
Max said:
I think it's possible that some guys might be better on one side than another but I don't think that it's anywhere near as pronounced as left hand/right hand coordination differences. I think it's more about footwork and sliding or shuffling left vs right (which I don't think makes a difference for most people). I played on both sides and it was exactly the same for me. The only difference was who I was lined up against -- not which side. Just my experience and would be interested in hearing from anyone else w/ experience w/ playing both sides. I just think it's overplayed on here as another way to say how our coaches are screwing things up by having a guy on the wrong side. Just my 2 cents.
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Agree but thought left hand translated to left sided including footwork. My bad.
 
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Reactions: Max
Heard shcharping had a good day. Henderson had some bad plays. Receivers looked awesome.

Foreman looked bad...again...

Dylan Cole crushed foreman in one on one pass pro

Higdon looked good on goal line.

Foreman fumbled on goal line.

Foreman avoiding contact in pass pro
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
Heard shcharping had a good day. Henderson had some bad plays. Receivers looked awesome.

Foreman looked bad...again...

Dylan Cole crushed foreman in one on one pass pro

Higdon looked good on goal line.

Foreman fumbled on goal line.

Foreman avoiding contact in pass pro
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Does Foreman make the team ?
 
TheKDog said:
He looked so promising as a rookie. Disappointing to hear the latest reports. Achilles injuries are tough
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I'm wondering if they are going to be patient with him since thats a pretty serious injury or will they just cut ties and move on. If they move on this will go down as another 2-3rd round whiff by the front office.
 
Achilles is not involved so much in pass pro or fumbling. Seems focus and mental effort are the bigger issues. Not saying the achilles may be an issue or hurting his confidence but dude has bigger issues then his achilles
 
texanhead08 said:
I'm wondering if they are going to be patient with him since thats a pretty serious injury or will they just cut ties and move on. If they move on this will go down as another 2-3rd round whiff by the front office.
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Foreman wasn’t exactly a whiff. He was having his breakout game when he tore his Achilles. Who would’ve thought an injury that serious would happen in his rookie season?
 
Uncle Rico said:
Duane Brown was the only other 1st round lineman drafted to be the FRANCHISE LT for this team and he didnt need time at a GUARD position to figure it out .. he took his lumps and was baptized by fire and turned into an ALL PRO LT .. why do we need to babysit Howard? He was also drafted to be a franchise LT (you would hope) and yet he needs to be coddled? That is all of a sudden is the tried and true method of player development? Sorry if Im not too excited about that. At the very least he should be playing RT. It is not just disturbing, but incompetent.
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Brown had a much better OL coach than what the current guys were given. Devlin has a big fat zero by his name in regards to who he's developed.
 
Max said:
I think it's possible that some guys might be better on one side than another but I don't think that it's anywhere near as pronounced as left hand/right hand coordination differences. I think it's more about footwork and sliding or shuffling left vs right (which I don't think makes a difference for most people). I played on both sides and it was exactly the same for me. The only difference was who I was lined up against -- not which side. Just my experience and would be interested in hearing from anyone else w/ experience w/ playing both sides. I just think it's overplayed on here as another way to say how our coaches are screwing things up by having a guy on the wrong side. Just my 2 cents.
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It's really not an excuse Max. We have 5 years of data to prove that point. Each year the line play has gotten worse. Mainly because these players are not being utilized in their natural positions. Some have experienced coming with multiple positions. But some has played one position their entire career.

Now the two we drafted has the experience to play multiple positions. So hopefully Delvin can coach them up and get the very best out of them.

I'm trying to remember who it was but an ex NFL tackle stated it was very difficult to switch sides like that.
 
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