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State of the O-line

steelbtexan said:
Would you sign Smith if it meant having to let KJax go.
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Given the cap space we will have available, I do not see that we will have to make that choice. Assuming we release D. Thomas and then rescind the 5th year option on Kevin Johnson, we should have near $100 million in space. That should be sufficient to re-sign our own guys and still poach someone along the lines of D. Smith.
 
steelbtexan said:
Would you sign Smith if it meant having to let KJax go.
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Given the cap space we will have available, I do not see that we will have to make that choice. Assuming we release D. Thomas and then rescind the 5th year option on Kevin Johnson, we should have near $100 million in space. That should be sufficient to re-sign our own guys and still poach someone along the lines of D. Smith.
 
Childress79 said:
Given the cap space we will have available, I do not see that we will have to make that choice. Assuming we release D. Thomas and then rescind the 5th year option on Kevin Johnson, we should have near $100 million in space. That should be sufficient to re-sign our own guys and still poach someone along the lines of D. Smith.
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Hope you're right.
 
Childress79 said:
Given the cap space we will have available, I do not see that we will have to make that choice. Assuming we release D. Thomas and then rescind the 5th year option on Kevin Johnson, we should have near $100 million in space. That should be sufficient to re-sign our own guys and still poach someone along the lines of D. Smith.
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Has the 5th year option on KJo been picked up yet? Wouldn't it be better to rework DT with a 2 or 3 year deal so less dead money? I think he can still help
 
JB said:
Has the 5th year option on KJo been picked up yet? Wouldn't it be better to rework DT with a 2 or 3 year deal so less dead money? I think he can still help
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I dont know if it has been. Hopefully KJo retires.

I would like to see DT back. Have you noticed the run game has picked up since he came aboard? Also he's an upgrade as a RZ target.

That said if you have to let him go to get a LT like Smith, you let him walk.
 
steelbtexan said:
I dont know if it has been. Hopefully KJo retires.

I would like to see DT back. Have you noticed the run game has picked up since he came aboard? Also he's an upgrade as a RZ target.

That said if you have to let him go to get a LT like Smith, you let him walk.
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Yeah sorry, my first glance was wrong... cutting him would be a cap savings of $14M... but I still think reworking a 3 year deal would be beneficial. KJo is due $9M in '19, all of which could be saved by cutting him per OTC
 
If the Texans signed Smith to fill the hole at LT, I would absolutely trade back and then target Dalton Risner with the first pick. Why? Martin would then be the biggest question mark on the OL and O'Brien /Devlin have a fear for Mancz's health in regards to moving him to Center. Risner is being projected as a top NFL Center who can play every position on the OL....well maybe not LT but who the hell knows once he gains his NFL strength.

I'd also draft WR, Riley Ridley, Georgia to replace Fuller. Fuller has been injured each of his Texans seasons and Ridley is just a bigger version of Fuller who's just as fast. I wonder what type of draft pick Fuller would return if he were made available?

The signing of Smith would really allow the Texans to take advantage of a defense rich draft to possibly build the best unit in the NFL.
 
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JB said:
Has the 5th year option on KJo been picked up yet? Wouldn't it be better to rework DT with a 2 or 3 year deal so less dead money? I think he can still help
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I wouldn't be in any hurry to release DT..........his value is only now being appreciated.............re-negotiate.

KJo's 5th year option was picked up this past April. The 5th year is guaranteed for injury when the option is exercised. The option year becomes fully guaranteed on the 1st day of the league year in the 5th contract year (approximately March, 2019). Teams that pick up the option year rarely release a player before the full guarantee takes effect. KJo should be made the exception............unless the Texans feel they can find a trade partner (probably unlikely).
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I wouldn't be in any hurry to release DT..........his value is only now being appreciated.............re-negotiate.
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READ BOTTOM TO TOP:

patrick‏Verified account@PatDStat 3h3 hours ago


**DT blocking ILB or Safeties, forces corners to be the run support at times. Most are not excited to play a physical game vs the run. #Texans

**I also think it is a testament to the #Texans offensive staff. To understand their personnel. You see the change in how they use Fuller vs DT in the O to manipulate the running game.

**Here is an example of DT. He is in the slot with a tight split. Look at his seal vs the safety and how it cuts off flow of the LBs. This is a huge element to the #Texans O.



**DT is part of the blocking scheme. They can send him vs. Safeties or even ILB. For example, Fuller would pull defenders out of the box with his routes. DT is able to block in the box and Miller has less players to beat. If that makes sense.
 
Lucky said:
Are the Texans really going into Sunday with 6 offensive linemen? With 4 o-linemen sitting on the practice squad? Surely, someone will be promoted today.
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No way they don't call up at least 1. Roderick Johnson is so bad, they really have only 3 to choose from. Slade and Fuller are the only ones with any significant experience in this offense, although I'd love to see what Steinmetz could do in this line.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
No way they don't call up at least 1. Roderick Johnson is so bad, they really have only 3 to choose from. Slade and Fuller are the only ones with any significant experience in this offense, although I'd love to see what Steinmetz could do in this line.
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I think it would have to be Slade or Fuller unless they think Steinmetz can play guard but at 6-8?
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
READ BOTTOM TO TOP:

patrick‏Verified account@PatDStat 3h3 hours ago


**DT blocking ILB or Safeties, forces corners to be the run support at times. Most are not excited to play a physical game vs the run. #Texans

**I also think it is a testament to the #Texans offensive staff. To understand their personnel. You see the change in how they use Fuller vs DT in the O to manipulate the running game.

**Here is an example of DT. He is in the slot with a tight split. Look at his seal vs the safety and how it cuts off flow of the LBs. This is a huge element to the #Texans O.



**DT is part of the blocking scheme. They can send him vs. Safeties or even ILB. For example, Fuller would pull defenders out of the box with his routes. DT is able to block in the box and Miller has less players to beat. If that makes sense.
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Looks like BOB is making adjustments to the offense and talent he has on hand. Despite what some around these parts think.
 
JB said:
I think it would have to be Slade or Fuller unless they think Steinmetz can play guard but at 6-8?
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Not exactly the best height for anchor. But there are 15 OGs that are 6'6" including Norwell. In addition to technique, probably the isolated height measurement is not as important as maintaining a stocky weight to height ratio in order to not lose anchor.
 
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CloakNNNdagger said:
Donovan Smith: Buccaneers Iron Man, Free Agent to be...

Having not missed a start in his career, Donovan Smith is the current Buccaneers “Iron Man” and is looking to continue to improving his play in order to cash in next off-season.

By Kyle_Marks Jul 15, 2018, 3:00pm EDT

**********************************************


Briefly technically, he broke his "iron man" label with an MCL sprain in August which required missing the last 2 weeks of TC...........but most importantly "iron man" to date still has not lost a regular season game to injury. Smith has a significant upside, especially when placed in an OL that is not made up of only slugs. Smith would have a good chance of having fans forgetting "the other #76.:texflag:
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Given a choice between these two FA Left Offensive Tackles Trent Brown is a superior choice.

FF Total Offensive Blocking Grade
Age 2012 / 2016 / 2017 / 2018

Donvan Smith 25.4 62.8 / 63.9 / 64.9 / 63.8


Trent Brown 25.6 64.0 / 61.9 / 73.0 / 71.2
 
Given a choice between these two FA Left Offensive Tackles Trent Brown is a superior choice.

FF Total Offensive Blocking Grade
Age / 2012 / 2016 / 2017 / 2018

Donvan Smith 25.4 / 62.8 / 63.9 / 64.9 / 63.8


Trent Brown 25.6 / 64.0 / 61.9 / 73.0 / 71.2

Brown has improved every year, while Smith is basically what he has always been, a backup talent OT. Basically a younger Chris Clarke.
 
AggiebyMarriage said:
Given a choice between these two FA Left Offensive Tackles Trent Brown is a superior choice.

FF Total Offensive Blocking Grade
Age / 2012 / 2016 / 2017 / 2018

Donvan Smith 25.4 / 62.8 / 63.9 / 64.9 / 63.8


Trent Brown 25.6 / 64.0 / 61.9 / 73.0 / 71.2

Brown has improved every year, while Smith is basically what he has always been, a backup talent OT. Basically a younger Chris Clarke.
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If the Texans draft a LT in RD1 or RD2, they could go with the cheaper of the two and let him work as a bridge for the drafted LT. In this scenario, Davenport could be released to make room for the new talent.
 
AggiebyMarriage said:
Given a choice between these two FA Left Offensive Tackles Trent Brown is a superior choice.

FF Total Offensive Blocking Grade
Age / 2012 / 2016 / 2017 / 2018

Donvan Smith 25.4 / 62.8 / 63.9 / 64.9 / 63.8


Trent Brown 25.6 / 64.0 / 61.9 / 73.0 / 71.2

Brown has improved every year, while Smith is basically what he has always been, a backup talent OT. Basically a younger Chris Clarke.
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I'd be looking at Brown's pass blocking before sticking your neck out.

Patriots offensive tackles ranked sixth worst in the NFL when it comes to pass blocking
New England needs to improve its tackle play, at least when judged by a new ESPN metric.

By Bernd Buchmasser@BerndBuchmasser Oct 23, 2018, 5:00am EDT
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Brady has been knocked around pretty well this season (even after this article), much of the pressure coming form the left side. His problem with pass protection this year is a consequence of the labrum surgery he was IR'ed for last season. Labrum problems for an OT is something that can follow him throughout the remainder of his career.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Kjax is too versatile to get rid of. Miller, if he continues to show what he is showing through the playoffs, would be a mistake to release. Griffin and KJo would not be missed.
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100% agree on your take of Kjax and Miller.

The TE class is supposed to be deep in this draft, so I’d be okay releasing Griffin and drafting a TE. (I like Mitchell Wilcox because he’s well rounded in blocking and the passing game)

Kevin Johnson hasn’t lived up to his draft grade after his rookie season. I just haven’t seen much growth because of all the injuries. I think we’ll draft 1-2 CBs this year, but I don’t know if Kjo will be kept.
 
I'm coming round to the idea that perhaps coaching up OL is the way to go in this league right now.

Even FA talent seems to take a long while to settle in to a new scheme.

I'd like them to take several prototype players later on in the draft with a view to bringing them along slower if needs be.

I see enough signs of steady if slow improvement in what we have, and importantly, a healthy Watson covers a few deficiencies here.
 
Some thoughts, starting Oline plays entire game well with no injuries. Donovan Smith is avg at best and who wants over pay for Chris Clark young or not? We have 2 good rookie Yes that don't pass enough to, don't need another; cut Griffin use cap savings on one of our own young FA to be like Covington. Put a TE on P.S. Kevin Johnson's $9m + a smartly reworked D.Thomas 2019 $14 m in an extension can get Le'veon Bell. Can lower DT's cap and lock him in. Small sample but he's real deal and a scorer. A solid corner FA and team could be powerhouse 2019
 
badboy said:
Some thoughts, starting Oline plays entire game well with no injuries. Donovan Smith is avg at best and who wants over pay for Chris Clark young or not? We have 2 good rookie Yes that don't pass enough to, don't need another; cut Griffin use cap savings on one of our own young FA to be like Covington. Put a TE on P.S. Kevin Johnson's $9m + a smartly reworked D.Thomas 2019 $14 m in an extension can get Le'veon Bell. Can lower DT's cap and lock him in. Small sample but he's real deal and a scorer. A solid corner FA and team could be powerhouse 2019
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My answer to getting Bell is NO! If his own team didn't care if he came back or not that should tell you all you need to know about him.
 
Insideop said:
My answer to getting Bell is NO! If his own team didn't care if he came back or not that should tell you all you need to know about him.
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Don't be so sure.....the only thing that gave the Steelers the luxury of not making a move was the emergence of Conor. If Conor isn't having the season he's had, the Steelers would've been doing everything to get Bell back on the field.

Steelers had Conor and Bell held out. That could be very good for any other team who decides Bell could check the "Need Respected RB" box....not to mention, his body was given a full season of rest which is sure to add some productive mileage to his odometer.

I would definitely sign Bell and with an improved OL.....Bell could be a beast for the Texans in 2019.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Don't be so sure.....the only thing that gave the Steelers the luxury of not making a move was the emergence of Conor. If Conor isn't having the season he's had, the Steelers would've been doing everything to get Bell back on the field.

Steelers had Conor and Bell held out. That could be very good for any other team who decides Bell could check the "Need Respected RB" box....not to mention, his body was given a full season of rest which is sure to add some productive mileage to his odometer.

I would definitely sign Bell and with an improved OL.....Bell could be a beast for the Texans in 2019.
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I would never spend that kind of $$$$ on a RB. I mean you can get Ingram/Coleman at a fraction of the cost. Plus I've got a sneaking suspicion although Bell is a really good RB most of his success is related to the Steelers OL.

Spend the $$$$ on fixing the CB/OL and draft a RB.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Don't be so sure.....the only thing that gave the Steelers the luxury of not making a move was the emergence of Conor. If Conor isn't having the season he's had, the Steelers would've been doing everything to get Bell back on the field.

Steelers had Conor and Bell held out. That could be very good for any other team who decides Bell could check the "Need Respected RB" box....not to mention, his body was given a full season of rest which is sure to add some productive mileage to his odometer.

I would definitely sign Bell and with an improved OL.....Bell could be a beast for the Texans in 2019.
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Why does a full season of rest equate to adding mileage? Is the man a year older or not? Missing a full season during your prime is detrimental to your overall mileage.
 
NitroGSXR said:
Why does a full season of rest equate to adding mileage? Is the man a year older or not? Missing a full season during your prime is detrimental to your overall mileage.
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Yep it's a very rare player (even moreso a RB) that can miss a full season and come back without missing a beat. Liable to take Bell 1/3 of season to round into playing shape and he will never make back the money he lost
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Don't be so sure.....the only thing that gave the Steelers the luxury of not making a move was the emergence of Conor. If Conor isn't having the season he's had, the Steelers would've been doing everything to get Bell back on the field.

Steelers had Conor and Bell held out. That could be very good for any other team who decides Bell could check the "Need Respected RB" box....not to mention, his body was given a full season of rest which is sure to add some productive mileage to his odometer.

I would definitely sign Bell and with an improved OL.....Bell could be a beast for the Texans in 2019.
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steelbtexan said:
I would never spend that kind of $$$$ on a RB. I mean you can get Ingram/Coleman at a fraction of the cost. Plus I've got a sneaking suspicion although Bell is a really good RB most of his success is related to the Steelers OL.

Spend the $$$$ on fixing the CB/OL and draft a RB.
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NitroGSXR said:
Why does a full season of rest equate to adding mileage? Is the man a year older or not? Missing a full season during your prime is detrimental to your overall mileage.
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As pertains to an NFL RB, age is a major factor in decline.......27 is typically the tipping point........Bell will be 27 1/2 the next time he appears in a regular season game. A carry of 350-370 in one season has proven to be a curse for follow up performance..........Bell carried 321 times in the 2017 regular season...........in only 15 games, as he was rested for 2 weeks prior to the playoffs..........he played in 1 playoff game and carried 16 times (for a total of 337 carries).

Although published in 2012, this article still holds true.

Why and When Do NFL Running Backs Start to Decline?
Ty SchalterJuly 25, 2012
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I'd be looking at Brown's pass blocking before sticking your neck out.



Brady has been knocked around pretty well this season (even after this article), much of the pressure coming form the left side. His problem with pass protection this year is a consequence of the labrum surgery he was IR'ed for last season. Labrum problems for an OT is something that can follow him throughout the remainder of his career.
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Doc I can not tell you how much I respect your opinion, but the statistics you are quoting are out of date. The latest Football Outsider and Football Focus grading puts the NE Offensive Lines as one of the top rated lines in the league.

Football Outsider (Statistical Based) Offensive Line Rankings 12/4/2018

NE: Pass Blocking Rank (1st) Adjusted Sack Rate (3.7%) Overall Offensive Line ranking (Both Run and Passing) (3rd)



Football Focus (Individual Player Grading Based) Offensive Line Rankings 12/4/2018

NE: Pass Blocking Rank (9th) (79.4 Grade) Run Blocking Rank (5th) (70.5 Grade)

In my opinion the Football Outsider grade is the most accurate because you are grading the unit not the individual player, so statistics should help even out any grading anomalies. But either way, the NE Offensive line is one of the best in the NFL.


As far as the labrum injury risk, you are the man and if you say this is an issue, then it better be considered.
 
AggiebyMarriage said:
Doc I can not tell you how much I respect your opinion, but the statistics you are quoting are out of date. The latest Football Outsider and Football Focus grading puts the NE Offensive Lines as one of the top rated lines in the league.

Football Outsider (Statistical Based) Offensive Line Rankings 12/4/2018

NE: Pass Blocking Rank (1st) Adjusted Sack Rate (3.7%) Overall Offensive Line ranking (Both Run and Passing) (3rd)



Football Focus (Individual Player Grading Based) Offensive Line Rankings 12/4/2018

NE: Pass Blocking Rank (9th) (79.4 Grade) Run Blocking Rank (5th) (70.5 Grade)

In my opinion the Football Outsider grade is the most accurate because you are grading the unit not the individual player, so statistics should help even out any grading anomalies. But either way, the NE Offensive line is one of the best in the NFL.


As far as the labrum injury risk, you are the man and if you say this is an issue, then it better be considered.
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Thanks for the additional info. The reason that the NE OL is rated as high (at least at pass protection) as it is now is because of Thurney and Cannon, not Brown.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Thanks for the additional info. The reason that the NE OL is rated as high (at least at pass protection) as it is now is because of Thurney and Cannon, not Brown.
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Not to mention Brady. His ability to get the ball out on time. His ability to read a defense and get the offense into the right play. Brady makes everyone better. He's not the GOAT for nothing.
 
Insideop said:
My answer to getting Bell is NO! If his own team didn't care if he came back or not that should tell you all you need to know about him.
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So..you admit you don't know why he held out? Steelers have a young RB IRRC rookie who is really good. Bell was offered two contracts; one reportedly 3 for $10 m and other 5 for $70 m. Unclear how arranged but guaranteed $ allegedly not enough. Again, IIRC offer on 5 year was $19 m G. My suggestion we guarantee that 1st season, signing bonus + 1st year with bonus prorated with cap for only $11 m cap. Guarantee year two and he should sign. He was best RB Steelers 2017 & 2nd best WR. IMO, he would be best RB and with Texans injuries WR corps that would be great. #1 free agent and we have cash. Bell not trouble maker or Diva.
 
badboy said:
So..you admit you don't know why he held out? Steelers have a young RB IRRC rookie who is really good. Bell was offered two contracts; one reportedly 3 for $10 m and other 5 for $70 m. Unclear how arranged but guaranteed $ allegedly not enough. Again, IIRC offer on 5 year was $19 m G. My suggestion we guarantee that 1st season, signing bonus + 1st year with bonus prorated with cap for only $11 m cap. Guarantee year two and he should sign. He was best RB Steelers 2017 & 2nd best WR. IMO, he would be best RB and with Texans injuries WR corps that would be great. #1 free agent and we have cash. Bell not trouble maker or Diva.
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A RB like Bell would minimize the devastating effect of losing our slot receiver.
 
thunderkyss said:
A RB like Bell would minimize the devastating effect of losing our slot receiver.
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Yes! 6'1 225 with quick feet benched 225 x 24 31.5 vertical, 20 yard shuttle 4.24 seconds at combine. He is considered a power runner with good cuts, sets up defenders in secondary with hard cuts and then bursts. No wear from 2018 and with Miller could become best backfield in NFL extending both careers. Options in 2020 extend Miller if he has another great year 2019 with reduced caps, don't extend and probably get a third round comp or trade during 2019 as he will be only 28. If we had cap issues or had no recent history of Chris Olson producing great contracts and leading team out of cap hell that would be one thing. IMO there is zero reasons not to pursue Bell. A FA runner like him allows us to go all in to Oline and a corner. We all should be looking for corner options for UFAs.
 
Insideop said:
So, what does he want?

Personally, I'm with steelb on this one. Spend the $$$$ on fixing the CB/OL and draft a RB.
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I respect your view, Bell wanted guaranteed money as did D. Brown and all players. A plus for me in signing Bell we can use draft picks on other priority needs. Our Oline is Davenport, Mankins, Martin and Lamm (UFA 2019). Sometimes starters Kelemete & Fulton cannot remain on field. First will be 29 and Fulton 28 next season. Arrange those six hoping we can retain Lamm; we can use 2-3 more. Kele should go as we can use his savings $2.5 m.
 
One thing I notice a lot is how SLOW Davenport is off the ball. This is killing him in pass protection. This is a very clean shot (although it was a run play)

hu0x3m.png
 
amazing80 said:
One thing I notice a lot is how SLOW Davenport is off the ball. This is killing him in pass protection. This is a very clean shot (although it was a run play)

hu0x3m.png
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It's been this way all yr and he doesn't have the feet to make up the difference. He regularly gets beat by speed and struggles to set the edge/holdup to counter moves. This is why the TE's are kept in to help mitigate Davenport's weaknesses.

Davenport has greatly improved in the run game to his credit. But he doesn't have the feet to be more than a backup LT in the NFL and that's god given, it's not something that can greatly be improved upon.
 
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badboy said:
I respect your view, Bell wanted guaranteed money as did D. Brown and all players. A plus for me in signing Bell we can use draft picks on other priority needs. Our Oline is Davenport, Mankins, Martin and Lamm (UFA 2019). Sometimes starters Kelemete & Fulton cannot remain on field. First will be 29 and Fulton 28 next season. Arrange those six hoping we can retain Lamm; we can use 2-3 more. Kele should go as we can use his savings $2.5 m.
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You think Davenport plays LT at an acceptable level.

SMH

BOB has had to spend practically all season scheming around Davenport's deficiencies. The draft/FA is where an acceptable LT will come from next offseason.

On an unrelated note, Holton Hill is looking good against the Vikes tonight. He sure would've looked good in a Texans uniform this last week.

BTW, he's had no issues since he's been in the NFL, just like I predicted after getting the chance to talk with his mom and dad during a game last yr. Olympic type athlete/honor roll student who smoked pot during college like most college kids do.
 
steelbtexan said:
You think Davenport plays LT at an acceptable level.

SMH

BOB has had to spend practically all season scheming around Davenport's deficiencies. The draft/FA is where an acceptable LT will come from next offseason.

On an unrelated note, Holton Hill is looking good against the Vikes tonight. He sure would've looked good in a Texans uniform this last week.

BTW, he's had no issues since he's been in the NFL, just like I predicted after getting the chance to talk with his mom and dad during a game last yr. Olympic type athlete/honor roll student who smoked pot during college like most college kids do.
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Cmon man you know everyone that signs with the Texans has to enroll in catechism classes and take a vow of celibacy.

On Leveon Bell: look what Miller is doing, now imagine Bell .. add to that WR type qualities in a RB and it really is a no brainier. Last thing I'd want is for him to go to Indy as has been rumored.

We just got .. got!

https://www.chron.com/sports/texans...yle-Fuller-Texans-practice-squad-13458486.php
 
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