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Replacement GM thread

powda said:
I think the article has a lot of value as far as revealing the structure of decisions but I still have questions.

If a draft has 400 eligible draftees do you think the Texans board has 400 people on it? I don't.

I think that number gets trimmed down for a number of reasons - talent, character, health, scheme fit, etc. Clearly the coaching staff would play a significant role in deciding the pool of players we'd find draftable. So if the original number of players is 400 and staff narrows it down to say 80 guys we would draft, the coaching staff can say "they're all players we agreed on."

What this doesn't say is the gm wants player A in the 3rd round. The coach wants player B in the 3rd round. Who wins?
The coach wins.
What part of HE'S NOT GONNA DRAFT GUYS WE DON'T WANT (from O'Brien's own MOUTH) don't you believe?

I guess my black eye peas haven't been cooked yet.
my black-eyed peas were left over from New Years Day. It's a southern thing we do for luck on New Years Day.
:D

Traditionally we've got a very solid 1st round draft history. Our 2nd to 4th round picks have been an outright disaster. Rick was here for a lot of it, Ob and gain for part of it. Based on longevity alone durring that time frame I naturally find it easier to blame Rick. Maybe that's not fair. Maybe they're collectively culpable?
That's the point I'm making here. We can't ONLY blame the GM when the coaching staff is also in on the assessment and decision making regarding player acquisition. That just seems fair to me. Now regarding contract extensions, that's mainly the GM. Although I think (Speculation Alert) the coaching staff has to let the GM know which guys are critical to success and which guys are "nice to have". If they don't bang the table, the the GM decides and that's when screw-ups can happen
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It was easier to imbed my responses in your post.

 
TheKDog said:
The point is he works with OBrien on the draft
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If this was true BOB would be gone.

I do believe BOB told Ricky we need to add speed on offense and Ricky went out and got Miller/Fuller. I dont believe BOB said get me Miller/Fuller specifically.
 
I'm holding out hope that this new deal for Gaine, O'Brien and Olsen finally ends the RS era for at least the next 4 years. Just getting a chance to look at the site...visiting Florence and Pisa today and tomorrow. This new team must nail this 8-Ball Draft to ensure RS remains in the shadows. Gaine needs to have a Lynch (49's) type of draft to move this team forward.
 
ObsiWan said:
It was easier to imbed my responses in your post.
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Until we have a definitive answer on who wins head to head on draft day I think my post paints a picture in which coaches get players they "like" instead of the player "They truly wanted." And that fits his quote.

This article and OB'S quote don't tell us who wins that battle head to head on draft day. Period.

And I'm not sure what kinda quote you expect OB to make. The quote was actually a very vanilla almost stock answer.

If your expecting him to say I wanted john doe but instead we got Kevin Johnson, your not gonna see it. If your expecting him to say "we've had knock down drag out fights" your not gonna see it.

I guess we interpret the article and the underlying power structure differently. I just don't see anything definitive here as outlined in my previous post. You do.
 
infantrycak said:
Yeah actually it does. Neither. If they disagree they can take it to McNair (who's sitting right there) for a decision. It's never gotten to that point.
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Your assuming their contracts don't say who has final call on draft day. If they do why take it to McNair?
 
powda said:
Until we have a definitive answer on who wins head to head on draft day I think my post paints a picture in which coaches get players they "like" instead of the player "They truly wanted." And that fits his quote.

This article and OB'S quote don't tell us who wins that battle head to head on draft day. Period.

And I'm not sure what kinda quote you expect OB to make. The quote was actually a very vanilla almost stock answer.

If your expecting him to say I wanted john doe but instead we got Kevin Johnson, your not gonna see it. If your expecting him to say "we've had knock down drag out fights" your not gonna see it.

I guess we interpret the article and the underlying power structure differently. I just don't see anything definitive here as outlined in my previous post. You do.
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Except OBrien has done exactly that. He has blamed Rick through the media for many players
 
powda said:
Until we have a definitive answer on who wins head to head on draft day I think my post paints a picture in which coaches get players they "like" instead of the player "They truly wanted." And that fits his quote.

This article and OB'S quote don't tell us who wins that battle head to head on draft day. Period.

And I'm not sure what kinda quote you expect OB to make. The quote was actually a very vanilla almost stock answer.

If your expecting him to say I wanted john doe but instead we got Kevin Johnson, your not gonna see it. If your expecting him to say "we've had knock down drag out fights" your not gonna see it.

I guess we interpret the article and the underlying power structure differently. I just don't see anything definitive here as outlined in my previous post. You do.
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I think you are headed in the right direction, but the step my speculation takes further is that the method is "we are coming up on pick #33 and these are the guys on our board let's discuss who we want to take since they are raked pretty close" ...and the team's draft board especially since coaches and scouts are involved in the process, will have very few if any guys that either coach or GM truly just "hates." In fact, it probably was too many guys that are liked by a lot of people over loved by anyone.

In a corporate culture, the draft board is put together by committee and the pick is made by committee...and like anything done by committee the result is often not anyone's option A, but and Option B or C of both. it is called compromise. For that, all members are to be held accountable equally.
 
TheKDog said:
Because that's what McNair told them to do
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You know what's defined in their job description? Why would they bother McNair if the argument is settled in writing before it happens?

I'm not saying I'm wrong or right. All I'm suggesting is the OB quote isn't concrete like some posters think it is. It does not reveal final say - be it gm, hc, or committee. Who gets the final call? Read the article as many times as you like, it doesn't say.
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
In a corporate culture, the draft board is put together by committee and the pick is made by committee...and like anything done by committee the result is often not anyone's option A, but and Option B or C of both. it is called compromise. For that, all members are to be held accountable equally.
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I believe our failures drafting in rounds 2-4 could very well be the cause of more then 1 person and not exclusively a gm. Agreed.

Perhaps I'm out of sorts here as I'm not familiar so much with a corporate or board room power structure? I work more in a military power structure for my 40 hours a week. It's easy for me to picture the gm as a captain while the hc is a lieutenant. The underlying authority for both would be in writing through policy or contract. A disagreement between the 2 would defer to that policy - so why bother an owner - ever?
 
ObsiWan said:
Are saying O'Brien lied?

I still haven't seen anyone post a quote (or I forgot it, which is also possible) where O'Brien SAID, "I wanted Jimmy Garappolo bad and Rick wouldn't get him". Show me that or it didn't happen.
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Lol, I said nothing of the sort...this is all speculation on my part. All I’m saying is just b/c they agreed on the picks they wound up making ...which is all BoB really copped to, doesn’t necessarily mean that it was either guys’ 1st choice.

Bob could’ve wanted one guy, Smith another, but by the time their pick came up, both of their guys were gone and they subsequently agreed on a consolation prize that both or neither were thrilled with, but agreed to take the player anyway.

However the willingness to go get said player in the draft that either wants is made clear by BoB in the article....he wasn’t responsible for draft day strategy, rick was and looking back on the 2014 draft it’s clear that it was definitely a mistake to sit back like Smith did.....which is why I believe he moved up to get Watson last year..Rick just wasn’t going to make the mistake he made in 2014...he went after Watson.
 
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Mr teX said:
Lol, I said nothing of the sort...this is all speculation on my part. All I’m saying is just b/c they agreed on the picks they wound up making ...which is all BoB really copped to, doesn’t necessarily mean that it was either guys’ 1st choice.

Bob could’ve wanted one guy, Smith another, but by the time their pick came up, both of their guys were gone and they subsequently agreed on a consolation prize that both or neither were thrilled with, but agreed to take the player anyway.

However the willingness to go get said player in the draft that either wants is made clear by BoB in the article....he wasn’t responsible for draft day strategy, rick was and looking back on the 2014 draft it’s clear that it was definitely a mistake to sit back like Smith did.....which is why I believe he moved up to get Watson last year..Rick just wasn’t going to make the mistake he made in 2014...he went after Watson.
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For years now durring drafts, players we reportedly wanted were taken just before we picked. Runs began on positions we needed before our pick. I've seen enough to believe we have a mole in our draft room. In the last 2 drafts we've traded up to circumvent that somewhat. I'll be curious to see what occurs in the next couple of drafts and if those trends continue.
 
powda said:
I believe our failures drafting in rounds 2-4 could very well be the cause of more then 1 person and not exclusively a gm. Agreed.

Perhaps I'm out of sorts here as I'm not familiar so much with a corporate or board room power structure? I work more in a military power structure for my 40 hours a week. It's easy for me to picture the gm as a captain while the hc is a lieutenant. The underlying authority for both would be in writing through policy or contract. A disagreement between the 2 would defer to that policy - so why bother an owner - ever?
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Plenty of owners i.e. CEOs, etc actually want to be bothered (their money, power/authority issue, appear to be smart, or even genuine concern for the enterprise)
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
Plenty of owners i.e. CEOs, etc actually want to be bothered (their money, power/authority issue, appear to be smart, or even genuine concern for the enterprise)
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Fair enough. For every boss that appreciates and encourages dissenting opinion in a think tank, there are dozens who only want "yes men."

I don't propose to know what's what in the Texans power structure, only that Ob's quote in the article didn't mean much.
 
powda said:
Your assuming their contracts don't say who has final call on draft day. If they do why take it to McNair?
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Not assuming anything. OB explicitly said it's in their contracts to go to McNair.

“Now, we agree on a lot of things, there are a lot of things we agree on, but just like any organization, any successful place, you’re going to have some disagreements in the end,” O’Brien said. “One of the things that it states in our contract is we go to Bob (McNair) if we have a disagreement. We have never had to do that, we just work it out.
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infantrycak said:
Yes he does. They either agree I.e. neither makes final call over the other, it's joint, or if they couldn't agree then McNair had final say (which never happened).
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See my post on page 33 in which a coach might like a player enough to make him draftable - fitting ob's comments - but not be ultimately who he wants head to head.
 
TexansBull said:
What does that even mean “smart enough to be a GM?” Are coaches dumb?
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Perhaps that is the wrong description but to say that a coach is prepared to be a GM means he has had enough time to learn how to be a GM. I think you get the gist of what the poster meant. No need to pick nits over it.
 
powda said:
Until we have a definitive answer on who wins head to head on draft day I think my post paints a picture in which coaches get players they "like" instead of the player "They truly wanted." And that fits his quote.

This article and OB'S quote don't tell us who wins that battle head to head on draft day. Period.

And I'm not sure what kinda quote you expect OB to make. The quote was actually a very vanilla almost stock answer.

If your expecting him to say I wanted john doe but instead we got Kevin Johnson, your not gonna see it. If your expecting him to say "we've had knock down drag out fights" your not gonna see it.

I guess we interpret the article and the underlying power structure differently. I just don't see anything definitive here as outlined in my previous post. You do.
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This is the fatal flaw for the Texans. There is no definite answer to who wanted the draftee more, Smith or OB. The only ones who will ever know for sure were in the meetings and they won't be talking. It takes the McNair's being in the meetings before the draft to get a real good idea of who wanted whom more. It's a very poor way to run your organization.
 
Mr teX said:
Lol, I said nothing of the sort...this is all speculation on my part. All I’m saying is just b/c they agreed on the picks they wound up making ...which is all BoB really copped to, doesn’t necessarily mean that it was either guys’ 1st choice.

Bob could’ve wanted one guy, Smith another, but by the time their pick came up, both of their guys were gone and they subsequently agreed on a consolation prize that both or neither were thrilled with, but agreed to take the player anyway.

However the willingness to go get said player in the draft that either wants is made clear by BoB in the article....he wasn’t responsible for draft day strategy, rick was and looking back on the 2014 draft it’s clear that it was definitely a mistake to sit back like Smith did.....which is why I believe he moved up to get Watson last year..Rick just wasn’t going to make the mistake he made in 2014...he went after Watson.
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Oh then I agree totally. I'm thinking that happens all the time. That's why you have a list of guys graded out at each round and not just one guy/round. So in case the favored guy in round X gets snatched ahead of you, there's a list of fallback guys to choose from. But that's what they are, the plan B (or C or D) guys.

powda said:
But he doesn't explicitly say who has final call on draft day.
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There should be no HC "wins" or GM "wins".
That's a selfish way to look at it.
As O'Brien himself said, they talk through it and make the call that seems to make sense. There is no "he won". Or there shouldn't be. It should be which guy makes the in this round for this pick.
 
TheMatrix31 said:
Well apparently nothing is O'Brien's fault so it looks like it all falls on the GM.
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I don't think anyone believes O'Brien to be blameless or faultless, but those whose opinions matter (McNairs) think he has enough promise to keep around. The players still believe in him, perhaps a new GM can get the OL and secondary built
 
JB said:
I don't think anyone believes O'Brien to be blameless or faultless, but those whose opinions matter (McNairs) think he has enough promise to keep around. The players still believe in him, perhaps a new GM can get the OL and secondary built
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The owners may have made no changes at all but for circumstances. We may never know.
 
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infantrycak said:
The owners may have made no changes at all but for circumstances. We may never know.
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I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but is there fire where the RS/OB smoke is concerned? The McNair's could've acted upon insider knowledge of draft/FA issues and let RS save face.
 
DocBar said:
I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but is there fire where the RS/OB smoke is concerned? The McNair's could've acted upon insider knowledge of draft/FA issues and let RS save face.
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They did, he's on a leave of absence not fired
 
DocBar said:
I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but is there fire where the RS/OB smoke is concerned? The McNair's could've acted upon insider knowledge of draft/FA issues and let RS save face.
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That's plausible. So is that things are exactly as stated (unless someone has info the cancer is fake). That's my point

Hell McNair might have canned them both but for the cancer.

My prediction prior to cancer was both would be kept. OB on the potential combo with Watson and RS on a record setting expenditure of players on injury, i.e. calling upon depth like no other team.
 
DocBar said:
I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but is there fire where the RS/OB smoke is concerned? The McNair's could've acted upon insider knowledge of draft/FA issues and let RS save face.
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I know people will disagree with this but my suspicion is that McNair actually realized that Smith needed to go and would have fired him if not for his relationship with Cal and being the God father of Cal's child, so he allowed Smith a graceful exit for Cal's sake
 
So...what topic do we get to spend hundreds of hours on now? Will there be conflict between old coach and new GM? Surely seniors bowl and the East-West game plus free agency plus draft talk is not same as our own soap opera..
 
badboy said:
So...what topic do we get to spend hundreds of hours on now? Will there be conflict between old coach and new GM? Surely seniors bowl and the East-West game plus free agency plus draft talk is not same as our own soap opera..
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Most will continue their gay man crush with Jimmy G, moaning about how we “should have drafted him” and how “right” they are and how they “called it” once the guy they wanted doesn’t get drafted by us, proceeding to predict failure.
 
Mangler said:
Most will continue their gay man crush with Jimmy G, moaning about how we “should have drafted him” and how “right” they are and how they “called it” once the guy they wanted doesn’t get drafted by us, proceeding to predict failure.
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wow,I thought my cynicism was bad
 
badboy said:
So...what topic do we get to spend hundreds of hours on now? Will there be conflict between old coach and new GM? Surely seniors bowl and the East-West game plus free agency plus draft talk is not same as our own soap opera..
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Honestly, there is very "football" talk on the board anymore even by the guys who are better at that than drama talk.
 
badboy said:
So...what topic do we get to spend hundreds of hours on now?
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Let's see...

Watson's 6 games were a freak occurrence or he's bound for the HOF.

Watson/Ob need one another to be that productive or don't.

Watt will never be the impactful player he was. Restructure his contract.

The Cushing cut.

At least 1 player will have a freak injury causing him to miss the '18 season.

A texans player (at least 1) will be arrested this off-season.

Something - be it free agency, contract talks, draft, or other will happen related to the secondary and the names Glover Quinn, Ed Reed, and Aj Bouye will resurface. People here who liked those moves will pretend they didn't.

Shouldn't a back up qb have the same skill set as Watson so if he gets injured we don't overhaul the offense?

The draft as you mentioned.

Free agency as you mentioned - but did we miss on the free agent we wanted because of Mcnair's inmate comment?

The schedule when it's released.

Special teams will be revisited here when a new coach is hired and posters get bored enough.

McNair, the gm, and or Ob will make an offseason quote about some change or another and we'll disect it to death pretending we know what it means.

Thorson will stop by again and plead his case for Brandon Weeden.

Case Keenum is great and should've been our qb all along! How stupid is Ob for not knowing better?

I think that about covers stock offseason threads posters are loading up on. Throw in a freak unpredictable occurrence or 2 and we're all set.
 
'Ol Paw Paw said:
I know people will disagree with this but my suspicion is that McNair actually realized that Smith needed to go and would have fired him if not for his relationship with Cal and being the God father of Cal's child, so he allowed Smith a graceful exit for Cal's sake
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If this is the case, why would Bob McNair allow Smith to return as Exec. VP (or whatever VP title it is)? Why not let his leave of absence be permanent?
 
infantrycak said:
That's plausible. So is that things are exactly as stated (unless someone has info the cancer is fake). That's my point

Hell McNair might have canned them both but for the cancer.

My prediction prior to cancer was both would be kept. OB on the potential combo with Watson and RS on a record setting expenditure of players on injury, i.e. calling upon depth like no other team.
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IMO, the OB/Watson relationship would've been enough to keep OB. I also believe that the steep drop off in talent exposed Smith. Pure supposition on my part. I'm certainly not claiming anyone is faking cancer, just wondering if it offered a chance at a graceful exit. Having said that, why would McNair allow him to return with his VP title? This should probably be taken at face value.
 
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