I still don't like spending a lot of money early in FA. Unless you think you're that one player away. But yeah, if we can get a Mitchell Schwartz for $6M a year, I'm down.
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State of the O-line
- Thread starter jradMIT
- Start date
I still don't like spending a lot of money early in FA. Unless you think you're that one player away. But yeah, if we can get a Mitchell Schwartz for $6M a year, I'm down.
Davenport looked poor yesterday , came right in and gave up a sack .... was so badly out of position that he took the RB out of the play too so he couldn't help.
Her might turn out to be good but he's got a lot of work to do.
Thanks Doc!
badboy
Hall of Fame
No one knows but I think Antonio Garcia in 3rd would have been interesting if Patriots had not selected him 4 spots earlier. When Foreman was there at #89 he was no brainer. Davenport played some but IIRC at super tackle or blocking TE as he did a lot versus Bengals.
What position was he playing (LT, RT, Blocking TE, etc..) when he gave up the sack? Just curious. I've been trying to follow how much he's been playing and what position he's been playing. I did see a replay where he was playing as an extra blocking TE next to Griffin. I think it was on the 1st TD pass to Fuller.
On that play he was lined up at TE next to Guacamole.
The Outside rusher was lined up very wide and Davenport was late off the snap and took a false step - He never had a chance.
OK, thanks for the info. Sounds like they will use him mostly as a blocking TE like they did with Lamm in his 1st and 2nd years. I just hope he can develop into a solid NFL lineman. The more he plays the better he will get but I think the Texans realize he has a long way to go before he can hold his own against the better NFL pass rushers. Hopefully he will use the off season to get stronger and quicker.
Dawkins was available.
If you had to have Watson, Great move.
Then trading up for Robinson is what I would've done. Gotta give your rookie QB all of the protection he can get.
Dawkins was available.
If you had to have Watson, Great move.
Then trading up for Robinson is what I would've done. Gotta give your rookie QB all of the protection he can get.
I think he was playing exclusively on the right side as a RT or blocking TE and he's still a fish out of water when he's not playing on the left side which is all he knew in college. He was at Bucknell which is was like JUCO in competitive level so it's gonna be a while befero he's ready to seriously compete for a stating job in the NFL.
What does next year's group of O-line grads/potential draftees look like. Is there "gold" to be mined in the mid rounds? I know the talking heads were saying the 2017 draft O-line group was kinda sad once you got past the top 5-6.
It's a really good group. IMHO
If you want a day 1 starting OT Ricky is going to have to move up to the top or middle of rd 2. The interior OL OG's in particular are very good and if the proper homework is done Ricky should be able to find a starter in Rd 3/4. The interior OL is one of the strengths of this draft. IMHO
badboy
Hall of Fame
to clarify, he rarely got beat and was head/shoulders above other olinemen. He was considered quick study.
Well if true that is grounds for optimism for Davenports development next year as a potential starter in our Oline.
badboy
Hall of Fame
edit : hmm or sooner. If a rookie QB can start so can an offensive tackle and yes I understand draft position, level of opponents etc. I would have liked to have seen Davenport at LT when we got way ahead last Sunday for a series or so. I am not saying he should be given the job but snaps would be good
I hear you, because with that big lead and the game put away it was the perfect opportunity for him to be gaining experience at his position.
Texas Jake
Rookie
I think the Watson's second-slowest average time to throw is a misleading stat. He is extending broken plays and finding receivers downfield and throwing completions on the run. The time-to-throw makes it appear he his holding the ball too long and hurting his o-line. The truth is he is extending plays due to his elusiveness and mobility and turning busted plays into positive gains. His ability is actually making his line look better, not worse. The o-line is definitely AIDED by Watson.
Excellent point man and way to clarify what is probably a misleading stat for a team with a QB like Watson. Such a stat might make sense for teams with QBs who are vey immobile like say the Ravens with Flacco.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Davenport was always going to be a developmental tackle. Thus far, he has appeared completely lost out there. He is very unlikely to have a miraculous progression this season to be anything but a liability, as he doesn't move quickly and demonstrates my initial concern of weak physicality. Like Lamm who was also specifically picked as developmental, I am skeptical that he can get it together even in year 2.
Stats always needed to be taken into context.
In this case, PFF grouped too many situations together (they even said so).
But the scheme helped the O-line; but they also did help themselves.
Watson having to scramble does not score as good points for the Oline, but they did play better as well. Either that, or the D wasn't playing very well.
(For example, when the back end allowed a wide open receiver right off the bat, both the QB and the offensive line can look good (since the latter don't have to block for too long).
Texas Jake
Rookie
I think Watson changes the game for every position on the offense because the defense has to play a different game because of him. To add to that, players play better when things our clicking and momentum is on their side. Their confidence in themselves and their team increases and they play with more effort and energy. That is how a player like Watson elevates the play of those around him - it is a combination a players stepping up their game and the opposition changing their game.
I disagree Doc. He's had some bad moments, but some good ones as well. He's inconsistent, he needs to improve his base, but I wouldn't be surprised, or worried if he's forced into the lineup later this year. I'm not expecting him to play at an all-pro level, but it's not like he'll be replacing an all pro.
TheRealJoker
Hall of Fame
Correct. PFF can be useful but all their extra stats can definitely be misinterpreted. One of Watson’s strengths is his quick release.
For the last few years we've been complaining that our receivers fail to get separation. However, watching Watson's quick reads & anticipatory throws, I'm wondering how much the "failed to get open" observation was due to the QBs being late on the throw, poor ball placement, poor communication, or a mixture of all of the above.
Which is something else that puzzles me. Watson throws with so much anticipation, you'd think he'd been working with Hop, Fuller, Griffen, & Miller all off-season... But we know he hasn't. Consistently throwing the ball behind them on crossing routes & over throwing Fuller on the 9s say as much.
He's got room to grow, but he's very well progressed at the same time. Puzzling.
Number19
Hall of Fame
It's just my opinion, but there are two types of developemental projects: one, the player has the physical build to suceed but lacks the physical skills, that is, he needs coaching up. The second, the player lacks both the build and the skills.
Players which only require coaching up can often make an impact by their second year, but if a player needs to add strength and mass, it's more likely a lengthy developmental project - their third or forth year before they get to where they need to be.
Davenport needs to get so much stronger and developed, I'm tending to agree with CnnnD that this player could be a lengthy project. Realistically, without peds, I don't know how many off seasons in the weight room and with a designed diet, it will take.
Texas Jake
Rookie
I think it is the way he sees the field/game. He is throwing guys open. He plays very intuitively. That is something that is hard to teach and invaluable to possess.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
You really have to be careful with PFF, I agree.
In the Jaguars vs Steelers preview, they point out that Bouye has allowed the sixth lowest QB rating at 35.2, but at the same time is allowing 1.21 yards per coverage snap, which is ranked 67th. Penalties count too.
So, just looking at one of their stats can be very misleading.
This highlights the need to actually watch the games rather than judge a player by stats alone. Any semi serious Texans fan knows that AJ is a penalty machine that negates a lot of things he does well. That's hard to tell when just looking at stats.
badboy
Hall of Fame
How many snaps at left tackle are you basing this on? I still like what I see especially if I remember he only played LT in 44 games at Bucknell. My preference would have been for him to train behind Brown and some behind whomever started at RT.
We haven't seen him at LT and I'd rather not for the time being as the snaps he has gotten at RT and as a blocking TE he's been horrible. Not physically outmatched but very poor technique and just generally not knowing what the hell he's doing. He takes false steps and steps in the wrong direction , late off the ball .... Big dude with physical tools but he's got a long way to go to be anything close to an NFL quality player. If he's going to be on the field at all , leave him as the blocking TE or on the right side - he'd get Watson killed on the left side.
badboy
Hall of Fame
we have talked About left and right not being same. I have not seen him much at right tackle. IIRC he did not activate one of 1st two games and no snaps tonight. Seems like not much to evaluate at left tackle.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
And yet there are posters here who constantly post the Bouye PFF memes that only focus on the one good stat and lament about how the Texans let an amazing talent walk away for nothing.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
54 snaps. Inactive one game. Less than 5 snaps in two others. You have an extremely strong opinion about the man's career for such a small sample size at the beginning of his rookie season.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Well he was pretty damn good in 2014 as well as 2016 & most here and in media usually point to only 2016.
2014: 14 games 59 tackles with 10 passes defended 3 INTs 1 TD
2015: 15 games 16 tackles with 6 passes defended 2 INTs
2016: 15 games 63 tackles with 16 passes defended 1 INT and 1 sack
2017: Jags 5 games with 2 INTs 7 passes defended
He signed huge deal [5 years $67.5 m with $26 m guaranteed] that I would not have given him and it appears we are getting a 3rd round comp in 2018.
sandman
Brexit Advisor
He is also tied for second in the league for PI penalties. And he has been burned a few times on deep passes.
Take the good and take the bad...
I liked the guy, wanted to keep him. But not for more money than we were paying Jjo & Jax. He was not going to start here over Jjo & Kjohns. In Jacksonville he knew he was going to start.
Now, if we were willing to trade Jjo, that's a different story.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Every good D team tries to carry 3 quality CBs. Some of the best CBs get their share of penalties and being burned on crucial plays. We could have used some the salary cap money that is still burning a hole in Rick' S pocket.
Texans thought they had 3 quality corners... how many carry 4? Hindsight is great
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
No need for hindsight. One, rookie Tecoud could not have been expected to be up to speed for this regular season, especially with him missing all of OTAs and minicamp because of the school graduation rule. Another one, KJo, was already seen to not be progressing normally from his first foot surgery, and instead of taking him back to surgery, the Texans tried to rehab his poorly responding foot way too long before deciding very late to perform the second "revision" foot surgery. JJo was the only one that could have been reasonably count on.
I agree. I'd have tried to keep him. I wouldn't have paid that much. I like him better than Kjax, but I like Kjax's contract a lot more than $13M/yr for Bouye.
Jonathan Joseph, Kevin Johnson, Kareem Jackson ...
yup, that's 3
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
TK, the Texans should have known that something wasn't right with KJo when 2 months after his 2nd foot surgery, the time when they released Bouye, he was not essentially ready to go (so unready that he wasn't even able to run until 4 months following this surgery)...........recognizably not a good sign for expecting him to be prepared for the 2016 season.I agree. I'd have tried to keep him. I wouldn't have paid that much. I like him better than Kjax, but I like Kjax's contract a lot more than $13M/yr for Bouye.
Jonathan Joseph, Kevin Johnson, Kareem Jackson ...
Seems pretty simple to me, a blind man could see, wonder how good Ricky is with brail.
TK doesn't want to admit Ricky screwed this up. This all goes back to trading Os for the 2nd rd pick. For the $$$$ Ricky didn't want to re-sign Bouye but probably would have, the lure of the 3rd rd comp pick was the lure that made Ricky let Bouye go according to Pancakes.
It's not that I don't want to admit it.
I admit I wouldn't have taken Jadaveon Clowney with the #1 overall. I think it was a mistake to add him to a 3-4 defense.
I admit it was a mistake to draft Tyler Ervin, much less in the 4th round.
I admit it was a mistake to let Ben Jones & Brandon Brooks go.
I admit I'd have told O'Brien to show me what he could do with Keenum & Yates before I paid Fitzpatrick $5M a year (if he didn't want to draft a QB in 2014 that is).
I just don't think it was a mistake to not sign Bouye for more than $9M/yr. Heck, he offered $12M. I would have thought that was a mistake.
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Well then I you must be enjoying the defense this yr.
Meanwhile that unused cap space sure is coming in handy. Letting your top players go seems to be a Ricky tradition. But hey, Ricky did re-sign Cushing/Schaub/Newton/Hal/Prosch etc....
# Part of the plan to get rid of BOB.
I think it was a mistake to give up that 2nd, especially if we weren't planning on using the extra money.
I don't think Bouye was worth 12M/yr. I think that would have led to cap issues down the line.
Scooter
Funky
Texans have 3 quality corners*. Somehow numbers 4+ didn't even make it to the regular season, since Banks was starting (getting toasted) with less than a week of prep when Kevin got injured (I'll leave this one to Steelb). That's where players like Brice McCain and AJ Bouye got paid, they rose above being castoff #4's. We failed to coach and keep replacement parts. Obviously #4 and #5 are not expected to be doing much heavy lifting, but we're doing something wrong if they aren't even on the team.
*Doc - most are lucky to have 2 quality corners.
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infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Every bad result or less than stellar player is not a mistake. The whole point of the salary cap is for teams to take calculated risks and have to use less than stellar players. It also means you can't keep every great player you get.
Hell 3/4s of the folks beotching about the OL would have used our 1st on OL (in a bad year) and we wouldn't have Watson.
Hell 3/4s of the folks beotching about the OL would have used our 1st on OL (in a bad year) and we wouldn't have Watson.