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State of the O-line

Insideop said:
Here is a quote from BOB in that article from the Chronicle:

“I’m going to play the guys that are playing the best,” O’Brien said. “That’s what we’re going to try to do — make it competitive in practice and try to put the best five out there.”

Sounds like "Billy" doesn't care if an UDFA beats out a drafted player or prize FA.
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This is what I was referring to when I said it wouldn't look like he's lying. I'm all for giving the paid/drafted players more opportunity, but without better play from the guards in training camp & preseason, Mancz should have been starting over one of them when the season started.

Insideop said:
BOB replaced XSF in the Jags game with Mancz and Mancz probably would still be there if it hadn't been for Allen getting hurt. So Mancz moved over to Allen's spot at RG and XSF had to come back in at LG. When Allen comes back I'm sure XSF will sit unless he's improved a lot and is one of the 5 best linemen. My guess is though he's probably playing his final season in a Texans uniform. I just can't see them bringing him back. JMO.
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I asked about this after that game. I wanted to hear that XSF was benched in favor of Mancz. As it turned out, X was out for an injury. I don't know if he'd have kept Mancz out there in favor of XSF had Allen not gotten hurt. I'd like to believe he would have, but I just don't know.
 
thunderkyss said:
This is what I was referring to when I said it wouldn't look like he's lying. I'm all for giving the paid/drafted players more opportunity, but without better play from the guards in training camp & preseason, Mancz should have been starting over one of them when the season started.



I asked about this after that game. I wanted to hear that XSF was benched in favor of Mancz. As it turned out, X was out for an injury. I don't know if he'd have kept Mancz out there in favor of XSF had Allen not gotten hurt. I'd like to believe he would have, but I just don't know.
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O'Brien is the mistery man.
Nobody can tell what he's doing.

Heck, he doesn't even know it himself.

:kitten:
 
thunderkyss said:
This is what I was referring to when I said it wouldn't look like he's lying. I'm all for giving the paid/drafted players more opportunity, but without better play from the guards in training camp & preseason, Mancz should have been starting over one of them when the season started.



I asked about this after that game. I wanted to hear that XSF was benched in favor of Mancz. As it turned out, X was out for an injury. I don't know if he'd have kept Mancz out there in favor of XSF had Allen not gotten hurt. I'd like to believe he would have, but I just don't know.
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I never heard it was an injury he was out for. In any case it must not have been that bad since he returned to LG when Allen got hurt and Mancz moved over to RG.
 
dang we gonna have a new generation of tit's fans occuping our board?

There is a specialty thread in the rival forum for that :D
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
One guard was a 2nd round pick and the other a prize FA signed after they let Brooks walk . How would it look if an UDFA can beat out both ?
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Well, RS and O'Brien might want to remove their "Rose-Colored Glasses" and realize....that's exactly what has happened!!!! I still go with Mancz at C during Camp and Pre-Season Games and groom Martin to play RG. At the moment, the Texans only have 3 legitimate NFL OL starters and 1 is holding out.

If the Texans get worked over the next 3 weeks...let me step back first, for the next 3 weeks, Fuller will be getting a lot of snaps at Center, the same for Davenport at LT and Martin at RG during practice and some rotation time during games. If the Texans find themselves at 1-4 by Week 6, the new OL to finish the season should feature:

LT- Veteran or Brown
LG- Mancz
OC- Fuller
RG- Martin
RT- Davenport

RS and O'Brien (if retained) should know what this group possibly offers as a unit going forward so there can be some type of gameplan for 2018 in regards to the draft and FA.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Well, RS and O'Brien might want to remove their "Rose-Colored Glasses" and realize....that's exactly what has happened!!!! I still go with Mancz at C during Camp and Pre-Season Games and groom Martin to play RG. At the moment, the Texans only have 3 legitimate NFL OL starters and 1 is holding out.

If the Texans get worked over the next 3 weeks...let me step back first, for the next 3 weeks, Fuller will be getting a lot of snaps at Center, the same for Davenport at LT and Martin at RG during practice and some rotation time during games. If the Texans find themselves at 1-4 by Week 6, the new OL to finish the season should feature:

LT- Veteran or Brown
LG- Mancz
OC- Fuller
RG- Martin
RT- Davenport

RS and O'Brien (if retained) should know what this group possibly offers as a unit going forward so there can be some type of gameplan for 2018 in regards to the draft and FA.
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They might as well go with the young guys and leave it . Those other guys have proved themselves .
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Well, RS and O'Brien might want to remove their "Rose-Colored Glasses" and realize....that's exactly what has happened!!!! I still go with Mancz at C during Camp and Pre-Season Games and groom Martin to play RG. At the moment, the Texans only have 3 legitimate NFL OL starters and 1 is holding out.

If the Texans get worked over the next 3 weeks...let me step back first, for the next 3 weeks, Fuller will be getting a lot of snaps at Center, the same for Davenport at LT and Martin at RG during practice and some rotation time during games. If the Texans find themselves at 1-4 by Week 6, the new OL to finish the season should feature:

LT- Veteran or Brown
LG- Mancz
OC- Fuller
RG- Martin
RT- Davenport

RS and O'Brien (if retained) should know what this group possibly offers as a unit going forward so there can be some type of gameplan for 2018 in regards to the draft and FA.
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I could see them moving Fuller to OG eventually but right now Martin is grading out as their best O-lineman at OC, and that is a critical position, especially when you have a rookie QB in there.

Both Fuller and Davenport were drafted as developmental players that I think the Texans were hoping could sit and learn for awhile and maybe get in on a few series throughout the season. But, with the terrible state of the O-line as it is, I think BOB has realized he will have to speed up their development which is why Davenport was in on 35 to 40 plays, mostly as a blocking TE but sometimes at RT, and Fuller was in about 12 plays as a blocking TE. I think BOB stated that both did OK the times they were in there. With that said, they both still have a long way to go to be good NFL linemen. So, if the Texans are 1-4 going into week 6, you may indeed see Davenport at RT and Fuller as one of the OG's but it means they have probably given up on the season and I doubt you will ever see DB in a Texans uniform again!
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Well, RS and O'Brien might want to remove their "Rose-Colored Glasses" and realize....that's exactly what has happened!!!! I still go with Mancz at C during Camp and Pre-Season Games and groom Martin to play RG. At the moment, the Texans only have 3 legitimate NFL OL starters and 1 is holding out.

If the Texans get worked over the next 3 weeks...let me step back first, for the next 3 weeks, Fuller will be getting a lot of snaps at Center, the same for Davenport at LT and Martin at RG during practice and some rotation time during games. If the Texans find themselves at 1-4 by Week 6, the new OL to finish the season should feature:

LT- Veteran or Brown
LG- Mancz
OC- Fuller
RG- Martin
RT- Davenport

RS and O'Brien (if retained) should know what this group possibly offers as a unit going forward so there can be some type of gameplan for 2018 in regards to the draft and FA.
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Listening to Myers the other day on 610. He basically said the best way to build up our line is for players to have years of rep together. Unfortunately uncertainties have cost us that luxury.
 
I liked the way both Martin (C) and Mancz (RG) performed yesterday. More snaps at these respective positions should result in positive results. I think Su'a-Filo's is completely dependent on Brown being at LT. With the youngster Lamm or Clark covering LT, "X" just doesn't look anything like he did down the stretch last season. It would be nice to see DB report but that isn't happening anytime soon unless RS is willing to break one of his cardinal rules...that's right, he's broken the rule twice but he's drawing the line with DB. This is extremely foolish given the performance Watson turned in against the Patriots and how a better OL may really help in his development.

I'm good with O'Brien altering his playbook slightly to integrate more PA's and designed roll-outs to take advantage of Watson's athleticism while covering for a weak performing OL. It will be extremely interesting to see how RS addresses or elevates certain areas on this offense. RS might want to prepare himself on how to answer some defensive backfield concerns as well.

As for 2018, RS might want to focus on finding a top RT FA provided DB is with the team and LT is not an immediate concern. It would be nice to see Davenport take the Swing Tackle spot while developing for another season before competing for a starting OT spot. Again, unless DB returns my guess is Su'a-Filo is playing his last season as a Texan...this makes LG another area of concern with an answer needed by July of 2018. Maybe "Q" gets healthy and strong enough to make a push at one of the OG spots, either as a starter or quality backup. If DB, Martin, and Mancz are the returning starters and Fuller, Davenport and "Q" make up the OL Depth Chart, then RS would need to sign a couple of FA (RT / LG) offensive linemen to re-tool and maintain decent quality backups on the OL.

For Watson's sake, I hope RS also identifies and handles this situation with success.
 
Did anybody notice if Davenport, Fuller, or Lamm played yesterday? It looked to me like they stuck with the same 5 linemen (Clark LT, XSF LG, Martin OC, Mancz RG, Giacomini RT) for the whole game. I didn't notice anyone else.
 
I would like to see Quess get some more reps at LG. I haven't heard whether or not he's all the way back or not. I do know that when he was in during preseason, he looked quick, aggressive, and fully committed .... in other words .... like X !
 
justmy2cents said:
I would like to see Quess get some more reps at LG. I haven't heard whether or not he's all the way back or not. I do know that when he was in during preseason, he looked quick, aggressive, and fully committed .... in other words .... like X !
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DQ is on the Practice Squad. He hasn't been called up to my knowledge.
 
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infantrycak said:
Wtf, have Davenport 'develop for another year? That's ridiculous.
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What makes you think he's ready to be a starting OT? He's going to need another off-season to build quality NFL strength and another full camp to improve his technique. If RS can somehow focus on obtaining a better than average veteran RT for next season, that buys Davenport quality developmental time and allows the Texans to have him focus primarily on playing LT....even though he would be a swing tackle in 18'.

If this whole fiasco goes upside down in regards to DB, RS is going to have a big decision; does he chase a LT in FA or has Davenport developed enough after 1 season to take helm at LT? For the best interest of the Texans going forward....RS needs to get DB in here and let Davenport work with him for the rest of this season and all of 2018. At that point, the Texans may have their next DB for another 10 seasons.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
That was against the Pats defense...the Titans defense will be a little more telling as to how the teams are truly performing. I'll keep my expectations in check until that game has been played.
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That's literally in the first sentence. Who else would they be graded against?
 
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OptimisticTexan said:
That was against the Pats defense...the Titans defense will be a little more telling as to how the teams are truly performing. I'll keep my expectations in check until that game has been played.
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The Titans DL is stout in the middle, their LBs are pretty good. Who are their edge rushers?
 
OptimisticTexan said:
What makes you think he's ready to be a starting OT? He's going to need another off-season to build quality NFL strength and another full camp to improve his technique.
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Who said anything about right now? He should be ready to start 2018. But you are suggesting 2019. That should be unnecessary.
 
infantrycak said:
Who said anything about right now? He should be ready to start 2018. But you are suggesting 2019. That should be unnecessary.
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To me...it depends on what type of product you would like to see on the field. Securing a veteran FA RT during the FA signing period would allow Davenport to focus on becoming DB's replacement for the 2019 season, therefore gaining 2018 as a period of time to execute what he has learned from a Swing Tackle roll before taking on a starting position, especially on the left side. I can't see how this approach would be bad.
 
It's a waste of time and money. Lots of OLmen start as rookies and you want to arbitrarily wait 2 years. There's only so much players learn from the bench. If he isn't ready fine but no point delaying just to delay.
 
Why are the PFF ratings of our OTs vs NE not increbibly encouraging news,
and is the Pats Dline not comparable to the Titans DLine ?
 
IDEXAN said:
Why are the PFF ratings of our OTs vs NE not increbibly encouraging news,
and is the Pats Dline not comparable to the Titans DLine ?
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IMO, our OL played about as well in the preseason vs NE as this last game and that was w/ Lamm at OT. Night and day difference between both NE games and the Jags game -- you'd expect a poorer performance against a better DL but there shouldn't be that much of a disparity in performance.

I think Watson instantly improves our OL because moving the pocket plays more to our OL strengths, plus D's will generally have to bring 1 less person because of W's run threat. W sells the play action better than recent qb's we've had and we're generally able to have more deception with our offense all because of W's mobility keeping the D guessing. The biggest factor may be W's ability to erase OL mistakes w/ his sense of the pocket and ability to move. Hopefully all of this adds up to better OL play as the season progresses but I have no idea what to expect and don't feel much better about them because of one decent performance against NE.
 
I felt like this was worth bringing up. When O'Brien told both McNair and RS that he was rolling with Savage as his starting QB, which would have been sooner than it was announced to the press....then why:

1. Didn't RS acknowledge this point and realize that with Savage's lack of mobility set out to improve his OL to better afford Savage an opportunity at success?

2. Didn't O'Brien realize, Savage has limited mobility and a poor OL protecting him adjust his playbook to take advantage of running a faster pace gameplan with quick-hit slants to take advantage of his accuracy?

I still look at this as pi$$-poor management from RS and poor adjustment from O'Brien. Because of the failure from 2 critical positions, Savage will be forced to salvage his career elsewhere.

For Watson's sake, I hope they take better care of him and get him all the proper support he needs to realize his full potential. RS must somehow focus on improving this OL, adding a true WR1 since I see Hopkins more as a dominant WR2 or SWR (on occassions) than carrying the torch from the WR1 slot, and an additional TE1 type. I know this is asking for a lot with the reduction in "fix-it" picks in the 2018 NFL Draft but RS created this mess, it's his responsibility to find solutions.

One move looking him in the face....Green Bay might be willing to pay a decent price to obtain Miller to cover their current RB delimna. Not sure what he'd bring but it might surprise more than a few based on their absolute need. This frees up Foreman to take on the load and at some point having Blue there to help him out.
 
I have been thinking about Watson and the decision to start him and then the quick hook on savage. What if we had it wrong this whole time. What if OB wanted to start Watson the whole time but RS said no let him sit. Then at halftime OB said F this let's play the kid. OB did nothing but send high praise towards Watson all off season and throughout TC. Maybe I'm reaching some but it would make sense.
 
They did not think Brown was going to hold out for starters. The offensive line was middle of the pack once they got healthy. Better yet they were pretty solid towards the end. So neither Rick or O'Brien thought they would regress to bottom of barrel bad. OptimisticTexan this is what you keep missing in your excellent deliberation.

Again this is another failure to develop players by Bill O'Brien and his offensive staff. But we have a lot of season left, so things could go north over the next few weeks.
 
amazing80 said:
I have been thinking about Watson and the decision to start him and then the quick hook on savage. What if we had it wrong this whole time. What if OB wanted to start Watson the whole time but RS said no let him sit. Then at halftime OB said F this let's play the kid. OB did nothing but send high praise towards Watson all off season and throughout TC. Maybe I'm reaching some but it would make sense.
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Doubt it. I think OB just didn't think Watson was ready and Savage probably practices a lot better than he plays.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
I felt like this was worth bringing up. When O'Brien told both McNair and RS that he was rolling with Savage as his starting QB, which would have been sooner than it was announced to the press....then why:

1. Didn't RS acknowledge this point and realize that with Savage's lack of mobility set out to improve his OL to better afford Savage an opportunity at success?

2. Didn't O'Brien realize, Savage has limited mobility and a poor OL protecting him adjust his playbook to take advantage of running a faster pace gameplan with quick-hit slants to take advantage of his accuracy?

I still look at this as pi$$-poor management from RS and poor adjustment from O'Brien. Because of the failure from 2 critical positions, Savage will be forced to salvage his career elsewhere.

For Watson's sake, I hope they take better care of him and get him all the proper support he needs to realize his full potential. RS must somehow focus on improving this OL, adding a true WR1 since I see Hopkins more as a dominant WR2 or SWR (on occassions) than carrying the torch from the WR1 slot, and an additional TE1 type. I know this is asking for a lot with the reduction in "fix-it" picks in the 2018 NFL Draft but RS created this mess, it's his responsibility to find solutions.

One move looking him in the face....Green Bay might be willing to pay a decent price to obtain Miller to cover their current RB delimna. Not sure what he'd bring but it might surprise more than a few based on their absolute need. This frees up Foreman to take on the load and at some point having Blue there to help him out.
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People have questioned why Foreman has not been out there more often. From the repeated comments from the beginning (when he reported out of shape after the Draft) by O'Brien in virtually every live conference and interviews relating to Foreman up to the present, his need for "conditioning" and hitting the weights has been the focus.
This is also the feedback regarding his apparent limited "availability" that I have been able to garner.
 
Max said:
Hopefully all of this adds up to better OL play as the season progresses but I have no idea what to expect and don't feel much better about them because of one decent performance against NE.
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How about now? DW makes the line look tons better, and they will improve even more as chemistry builds
 
JB said:
How about now? DW makes the line look tons better, and they will improve even more as chemistry builds
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I honestly don't know. I do believe that the OL's 'improvement' is less about individuals playing better and more about scheme changes. As you mentioned, DW makes the line look better but they mix up the blocking scheme when he's playing. The designed roll-outs allow the lineman to run with their guy which I think works more to their strengths when almost all of them struggle at different times to hold a block for 3 seconds. With play action runs having the same movement -- there's more lateral movement or a zone blocking look which I believe also plays to their strength on running plays. There was still plenty of traditional drop-backs or shotgun pass plays today where we didn't move the pocket and they did quite well. But they've looked good earlier in the year with a traditional pocket with the huge exception of Jacksonville. With the scheme we're able to block w/ Watson, I think we're going to be ok against average DL's. The Giants were 9-7 in 2011 with a below average defense but still won the Super Bowl because of a good 4 man pass rush. Those are the teams that I think could throw us off this year, but Superman may be up to that as well -- we'll see.
 
Max said:
With play action runs having the same movement -- there's more lateral movement or a zone blocking look which I believe also plays to their strength on running plays.
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There was a lot of ZBS mixed in today. Not full ZBS but you'd see center-side flow and the other power. It was at least a tip of the hat to recognition zone scheming fits a scrambler like peas and carrrots.*

* never got that because I hate carrots in peas. But anyway...
 
infantrycak said:
There was a lot of ZBS mixed in today. Not full ZBS but you'd see center-side flow and the other power. It was at least a tip of the hat to recognition zone scheming fits a scrambler like peas and carrrots.*

* never got that because I hate carrots in peas. But anyway...
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We haven't always agreed, but you sure know how to eat.
 
infantrycak said:
There was a lot of ZBS mixed in today. Not full ZBS but you'd see center-side flow and the other power. It was at least a tip of the hat to recognition zone scheming fits a scrambler like peas and carrrots.*

* never got that because I hate carrots in peas. But anyway...
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Thanks for the insight...missed watching this game since I was in Poland. Hopefully, I can catch the replay at some point this week. Just nice to see this offense open a can of "Texas Whoop A*s" on an unsuspecting victim. This would have been fun to see live.
 
infantrycak said:
* never got that because I hate carrots in peas. But anyway...
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Lebanese 'peasant' food - bazella w riz
peas, carrots, beef served w/vermicelli rice

IMG_0913.JPG


Yum!
Cafe Lili offers this as a special on Tuesdays.
 
Boris said:
Lebanese 'peasant' food - bazella w riz
peas, carrots, beef served w/vermicelli rice

IMG_0913.JPG


Yum!
Cafe Lili offers this as a special on Tuesdays.
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1) anyone with a cow in Lebanon isn't a peasant.

2) I make that recipe, with carrots even, but they don't appear on the plate.

Carrots are fine for flavor but by the time they give it up they become paste. They're the heard but not seen vegetable.
 
amazing80 said:
I have been thinking about Watson and the decision to start him and then the quick hook on savage. What if we had it wrong this whole time. What if OB wanted to start Watson the whole time but RS said no let him sit. Then at halftime OB said F this let's play the kid. OB did nothing but send high praise towards Watson all off season and throughout TC. Maybe I'm reaching some but it would make sense.
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Makes no sense. The HC and his coordinators set the depth chart, not Rick Smith. So yeah, you are seriously reaching.

Now having said that, the O-line should have been improved no matter the starter.
That IS on Smith.
 
ObsiWan said:
Makes no sense. The HC and his coordinators set the depth chart, not Rick Smith. So yeah, you are seriously reaching.

Now having said that, the O-line should have been improved no matter the starter.
That IS on Smith.
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Interesting, considering so many posters on this board think OB is controlled in those decisions by Smith and McNair....
 
I had to work yesterday and didn't get to watch the game. Did anyone notice if Jah Reid played? And, how many plays was Davenport in on and what position?
 
steelbtexan said:
It's doubtful that it will be fixed next yr either.
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I don't know. 2017 was a week draft for OTs, but many here act as if they'd have been happy if Ricky would have drafted a guy, any guy in the third round.

Davenport may prove to be better than any tackle taken in the 2nd or third round.

& they may draft a stud in 2018's 3rd.

Who knows?
 
thunderkyss said:
I don't know. 2017 was a week draft for OTs, but many here act as if they'd have been happy if Ricky would have drafted a guy, any guy in the third round.

Davenport may prove to be better than any tackle taken in the 2nd or third round.

& they may draft a stud in 2018's 3rd.

Who knows?
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Agreed. Plus they'll have plenty of money to get in on the free agent OL sweepstakes.
 
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