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All encompassing Rick Smith thread

@LopezOnSports
With Jaelen Strong's release, 14 of the 18 Rick Smith 2nd-4th round picks between 2011-2015 no longer are with the club. Stunning ineptitude

10:18 AM - Sep 19, 2017

Rounds 2-4 since 2011

2011:
2-42 Brooks Reed --> Left as FA to Atlanta (5 yrs, $22.5M 9M guaranteed)
2-60 Brandon Harris --> Bounced around with Tennessee & Miami; currently in the CFL
4-117 Roc Carmichael --> Bounced around with Philadelphia & Arizona; currently in the CFL

2012:
3-68 DeVier Posey --> Traded with a 3rd, 5th & 7th round pick to NY Jets for a 3rd (Jaelen Strong) (Bounced around with NY Jets & Denver; currently in the CFL)
3-76 Brandon Brooks --> Left as a FA to Philadelphia (5 yrs, $40M 17M guaranteed)
4-99 Ben Jones --> Left as a FA to Tennessee (4 yrs, $17.5M 7.5M guaranteed)
4-121 Keshawn Martin --> Traded with a 6th round pick to New England for a 5th (D.J. Reader) (Bounced around with New England, San Francisco & Detroit; currently a free agent)
4-126 Jared Crick --> Left as a FA to Denver (2 yrs, $4M 1M guaranteed)

2013:
3-89 Brennan Williams --> Cut without ever playing a down; bounced aroudn with Jacksonville & New England; currently in professional wrestling
3-95 Sam Montgomery --> Cut without ever playing a down; bounced around with Oakland & Cincinnati; currently a free agent
4-124 Trevardo Williams --> Bounced around with Arizona, Indianapolis & Washington; currently a free agent

2014:
2-33 Xavier Su'a-Filo
3-65 C.J. Fiedorowicz
3-83 Louis Nix --> Bounced around with NY Giants, Washington & Jacksonville
4-135 Tom Savage

2015:
2-43 Benardrick McKinney
3-70 Jaelen Strong --> released

2016:
2-50 Nick Martin
3-85 Braxton Miller
4-119 Tyler Ervin

2017:
2-57 Zach Cunningham
3-89 D'Onta Foreman
4-130 Julien Davenport
4-142 Carlos Watkins
 
zshawn10 said:
@LopezOnSports
With Jaelen Strong's release, 14 of the 18 Rick Smith 2nd-4th round picks between 2011-2015 no longer are with the club. Stunning ineptitude

10:18 AM - Sep 19, 2017

Rounds 2-4 since 2011

2011:
2-42 Brooks Reed --> Left as FA to Atlanta (5 yrs, $22.5M 9M guaranteed)
2-60 Brandon Harris --> Bounced around with Tennessee & Miami; currently in the CFL
4-117 Roc Carmichael --> Bounced around with Philadelphia & Arizona; currently in the CFL

2012:
3-68 DeVier Posey --> Traded with a 3rd, 5th & 7th round pick to NY Jets for a 3rd (Jaelen Strong) (Bounced around with NY Jets & Denver; currently in the CFL)
3-76 Brandon Brooks --> Left as a FA to Philadelphia (5 yrs, $40M 17M guaranteed)
4-99 Ben Jones --> Left as a FA to Tennessee (4 yrs, $17.5M 7.5M guaranteed)
4-121 Keshawn Martin --> Traded with a 6th round pick to New England for a 5th (D.J. Reader) (Bounced around with New England, San Francisco & Detroit; currently a free agent)
4-126 Jared Crick --> Left as a FA to Denver (2 yrs, $4M 1M guaranteed)

2013:
3-89 Brennan Williams --> Cut without ever playing a down; bounced aroudn with Jacksonville & New England; currently in professional wrestling
3-95 Sam Montgomery --> Cut without ever playing a down; bounced around with Oakland & Cincinnati; currently a free agent
4-124 Trevardo Williams --> Bounced around with Arizona, Indianapolis & Washington; currently a free agent

2014:
2-33 Xavier Su'a-Filo
3-65 C.J. Fiedorowicz
3-83 Louis Nix --> Bounced around with NY Giants, Washington & Jacksonville
4-135 Tom Savage

2015:
2-43 Benardrick McKinney
3-70 Jaelen Strong --> released

2016:
2-50 Nick Martin
3-85 Braxton Miller
4-119 Tyler Ervin

2017:
2-57 Zach Cunningham
3-89 D'Onta Foreman
4-130 Julien Davenport
4-142 Carlos Watkins
Click to expand...
And the remaining 3 in 2014 can't contribute at the moment, one way or another.
So much for building through the draft.
 
infantrycak said:
Bogus to count players who did well enough their market value was more than the Texans chose to pay.
Click to expand...

So its 10 players. I count 4 that left in FA. Crick and Reed didn't hurt us as much as Brooks and Jones which have hurt us. A lot. So now Rick missed on 50% of the FAs he should have keep. Makes you ask the question if he sees value in the Oline, or how they value the players through the draft and FA because there are multiple whiffs.

Add the Duane Brown drama and it makes you wonder.

Edit afterthought:

And how many picks were additionally wasted by the trades for Strong and Nix?
 
TexansBull said:
So its 10 players. I count 4 that left in FA. Crick and Reed didn't hurt us as much as Brooks and Jones which have hurt us. A lot. So now Rick missed on 50% of the FAs he should have keep. Makes you ask the question if he sees value in the Oline, or how they value the players through the draft and FA because there are multiple whiffs.

Add the Duane Brown drama and it makes you wonder.

Edit afterthought:

And how many picks were additionally wasted by the trades for Strong and Nix?
Click to expand...

Rick likes UDFA not counting ST , the Texans will play at least 5 Sunday . Moore , Lamm , Cole , Heath , and Mancz will all start vs the Pats . They will play 3 FA's JJo , Miller and Breno . The other 14 are players drafted by the Texans . Those UDFA are replacing high picks .
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
Rick likes UDFA not counting ST , the Texans will play at least 5 Sunday . Moore , Lamm , Cole , Heath , and Mancz will all start vs the Pats . They will play 3 FA's JJo , Miller and Breno . The other 14 are players drafted by the Texans . Those UDFA are replacing high picks .
Click to expand...

Read this twice and let it soak in.. Explains a lot about our ineptitude as a franchise. Lets blame Obrien for this too.

:coffee:
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
Rick likes UDFA not counting ST , the Texans will play at least 5 Sunday . Moore , Lamm , Cole , Heath , and Mancz will all start vs the Pats . They will play 3 FA's JJo , Miller and Breno . The other 14 are players drafted by the Texans . Those UDFA are replacing high picks .
Click to expand...
Product of the Salary Cap.
 
zshawn10 said:
@LopezOnSports
With Jaelen Strong's release, 14 of the 18 Rick Smith 2nd-4th round picks between 2011-2015 no longer are with the club. Stunning ineptitude

10:18 AM - Sep 19, 2017

Rounds 2-4 since 2011

2011:
2-42 Brooks Reed --> Left as FA to Atlanta (5 yrs, $22.5M 9M guaranteed)
2-60 Brandon Harris --> Bounced around with Tennessee & Miami; currently in the CFL
4-117 Roc Carmichael --> Bounced around with Philadelphia & Arizona; currently in the CFL

2012:
3-68 DeVier Posey --> Traded with a 3rd, 5th & 7th round pick to NY Jets for a 3rd (Jaelen Strong) (Bounced around with NY Jets & Denver; currently in the CFL)
3-76 Brandon Brooks --> Left as a FA to Philadelphia (5 yrs, $40M 17M guaranteed)
4-99 Ben Jones --> Left as a FA to Tennessee (4 yrs, $17.5M 7.5M guaranteed)
4-121 Keshawn Martin --> Traded with a 6th round pick to New England for a 5th (D.J. Reader) (Bounced around with New England, San Francisco & Detroit; currently a free agent)
4-126 Jared Crick --> Left as a FA to Denver (2 yrs, $4M 1M guaranteed)

2013:
3-89 Brennan Williams --> Cut without ever playing a down; bounced aroudn with Jacksonville & New England; currently in professional wrestling
3-95 Sam Montgomery --> Cut without ever playing a down; bounced around with Oakland & Cincinnati; currently a free agent
4-124 Trevardo Williams --> Bounced around with Arizona, Indianapolis & Washington; currently a free agent

2014:
2-33 Xavier Su'a-Filo
3-65 C.J. Fiedorowicz
3-83 Louis Nix --> Bounced around with NY Giants, Washington & Jacksonville
4-135 Tom Savage

2015:
2-43 Benardrick McKinney
3-70 Jaelen Strong --> released

2016:
2-50 Nick Martin
3-85 Braxton Miller
4-119 Tyler Ervin

2017:
2-57 Zach Cunningham
3-89 D'Onta Foreman
4-130 Julien Davenport
4-142 Carlos Watkins
Click to expand...
C. J. Swearinger, 2nd RD #57, 2013
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
Rick likes UDFA not counting ST , the Texans will play at least 5 Sunday . Moore , Lamm , Cole , Heath , and Mancz will all start vs the Pats . They will play 3 FA's JJo , Miller and Breno . The other 14 are players drafted by the Texans . Those UDFA are replacing high picks .
Click to expand...

My post wasn't about getting FAs in general. It's about the picks we missed on, the picks we used on missed picks, and the players that were actually worth anything were let go. Let's drill it down more and focus on the Oline since that is a big problem. 2 of the FAs out of the 4 were on the Oline. Again, an area that is a big problem. Who was picked up to replace them? Mancz? Lamm? Jah Reid? Giacomini? Clark? Jeff Allen? How much savings has there actually been?

The lack of talent on the oline appears to be from missing in the draft consistently, giving away picks for players they thought were must haves, and not resigning the players who were actually any good.
 
zshawn10 said:
Sean Pendergast

✔@SeanTPendergast
Fun fact — C.J. Fiedorowicz is 1st Rick Smith 3rd rd pick to get a 2nd contract w/ Texans..prev 10 cut or left in FA http://www.houstonpress.com/news/jaelen-strong-is-the-texans-latest-third-round-draft-casualty-9804472 …

9:19 AM - Sep 19, 2017
Click to expand...

Let's not forget cutting Daniel Manning and Owen Daniels in 2014, both in the last year of their contract, both worth a future compensatory draft pick the following year. In Manning's case not only was he cut he was be brought back and signed later that year but the Comp pick had already been forfeited when he was cut.
 
infantrycak said:
Nope. The cap hit for 4th+ round draftees is negligibly different from league minimum that applies to UDFAs.

Edit:

League min. - $465k
4.1 - $520k

That's squat in the NFL.
Click to expand...
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ - when all you can afford is vet minimums and rookie salaries YOU HAVE BEEN EFFECTED BY THE SALARY CAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BASIC ARITHMETIC!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
[If you are saying effected and mismanaged are one in the same , then yes .
Click to expand...

That's still unrealistic. Every team in the league relies on a healthy dose of rookie contracts and vet minimum type guys. It's how they pay so much to the stars/starters. A couple years ago the commentators were talking about how NE had the most players who were undrafted.
 
infantrycak said:
That's still unrealistic. Every team in the league relies on a healthy dose of rookie contracts and vet minimum type guys. It's how they pay so much to the stars/starters. A couple years ago the commentators were talking about how NE had the most players who were undrafted.
Click to expand...

NE has had a big advantage in Tom Brady . I think in last years SB it was said that Matt Ryan made 24 million and Brady made 13 million . I think in 2011 or so the 49ers had 30 players who made a million or better and the Texans had 16 . If you have a good QB who has a reasonable contract , you have a huge advantage . If you overpay for a position that's not a QB and you don't have a QB , you're screwed . If you have a QB but don't want to overpay for a good LT , screwed . It's a fine balance and you spend premium money on about 5 or 6 positions and fill in the rest .
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
NE has had a big advantage in Tom Brady . I think in last years SB it was said that Matt Ryan made 24 million and Brady made 13 million . I think in 2011 or so the 49ers had 30 players who made a million or better and the Texans had 16 . If you have a good QB who has a reasonable contract , you have a huge advantage . If you overpay for a position that's not a QB and you don't have a QB , you're screwed . If you have a QB but don't want to overpay for a good LT , screwed . It's a fine balance and you spend premium money on about 5 or 6 positions and fill in the rest .
Click to expand...

That's the balance right there that makes a good GM. I know of a team that may have a position open soon so i will drop your name to management.
 
banned1976 said:
Sam Montgomery and Louis Nix III. And where the hell is Jeoffrey Pagan? Is he even playing football anymore? I know Nix and Montgomery are both out of the NFL, sitting on their couches. Along with Travardo Williams. DJ Swearinger is on his 4th team. Alan Bonner has yet to play a down in the NFL. Brenan Williams is a wrestler. That's all just 2 drafts, 2013 and 2014.
Click to expand...
Jeez, the hate is strong on this board. Nix and Montgomery were 1st round talents who were knuckleheads - exactly the kind of players all the Smith / McNair haters constantly b!tch that the Texans should get more of - until they don't work out then you b!tch some more.

The Williams, I would start to agree with you (wasting a 3rd round pick on the OL) but then you have to bang the Bonner and Pagan cards. Seriously? They were 6th rounders!

I decided to look at "comps" for the Texans 2014 6th rounders. To be fair to other GMs I compared the Texans players to players drafted before the Texans player.

#177 Jeoffrey Pagan DL, Texans. Career 11 tackles, 0 sacks, out of the league. Comp - #172 (late 5th) Jimmy Staten DL, Seahawks. Career 0 tackles, 0 sacks, out of league.

#181 Alfred Blue RB, Texans. Career 452 carries, 1646 yards, will be in RB rotation when recovered from injury. No RBs taken in 5th round, had to go to 4th round for first RB before Blue. Comp #138 Lorenzo Taliaferro RB, Ravens. Career 82 carries, 339 yards (although only 14 for 47 since rookie season), out of league.

#211 Jay Prosch FB, Texans. Career 10 carries, 42 yards, starter. Not many FBs drafted, and the running stats are not that relevant for a FB, still had to compare to a RB. Comp #204 Tyler Gaffney RB, Panthers (although spent more time with Patriots). Career 0 carries, 0 yards, out of league.

#216 (1st pick of 7th, close enough) Andre Hal DB, Texans. Career 113 tackles, 6 INTs. Comp #206 Jemea Thomas DB, Patriots. Career 0 tackles, 0 INTs, out of league.

Do you think this proves the Seahawks, Ravens, Panthers, and Patriots GMs are bad? I don't, I think it shows that it is counter productive to the argument that Rick Smith is terrible to whine about 6th rounders from 4 and 5 years ago not being on the team or in the league.
 
Texian said:
Let's not forget cutting Daniel Manning and Owen Daniels in 2014, both in the last year of their contract, both worth a future compensatory draft pick the following year. In Manning's case not only was he cut he was be brought back and signed later that year but the Comp pick had already been forfeited when he was cut.
Click to expand...

And Daniels went on to catch a TD in the Super Bowl
 
Texian said:
What's worse is the number of drafts picks they traded away to move up to collect this heap of garbage.
Click to expand...

animals-cockroach-roach-chore-household_chore-garbage-dren25_low.jpg
 
Fred said:
Jeez, the hate is strong on this board. Nix and Montgomery were 1st round talents who were knuckleheads - exactly the kind of players all the Smith / McNair haters constantly b!tch that the Texans should get more of - until they don't work out then you b!tch some more.

The Williams, I would start to agree with you (wasting a 3rd round pick on the OL) but then you have to bang the Bonner and Pagan cards. Seriously? They were 6th rounders!

I decided to look at "comps" for the Texans 2014 6th rounders. To be fair to other GMs I compared the Texans players to players drafted before the Texans player.

#177 Jeoffrey Pagan DL, Texans. Career 11 tackles, 0 sacks, out of the league. Comp - #172 (late 5th) Jimmy Staten DL, Seahawks. Career 0 tackles, 0 sacks, out of league.

#181 Alfred Blue RB, Texans. Career 452 carries, 1646 yards, will be in RB rotation when recovered from injury. No RBs taken in 5th round, had to go to 4th round for first RB before Blue. Comp #138 Lorenzo Taliaferro RB, Ravens. Career 82 carries, 339 yards (although only 14 for 47 since rookie season), out of league.

#211 Jay Prosch FB, Texans. Career 10 carries, 42 yards, starter. Not many FBs drafted, and the running stats are not that relevant for a FB, still had to compare to a RB. Comp #204 Tyler Gaffney RB, Panthers (although spent more time with Patriots). Career 0 carries, 0 yards, out of league.

#216 (1st pick of 7th, close enough) Andre Hal DB, Texans. Career 113 tackles, 6 INTs. Comp #206 Jemea Thomas DB, Patriots. Career 0 tackles, 0 INTs, out of league.

Do you think this proves the Seahawks, Ravens, Panthers, and Patriots GMs are bad? I don't, I think it shows that it is counter productive to the argument that Rick Smith is terrible to whine about 6th rounders from 4 and 5 years ago not being on the team or in the league.
Click to expand...

Why do you think I hate Smith?

Listen, you know I can go through and name a bunch of other players he missed on and you can keep naming other GM's that have missed too. I've never said Smith is a terrible GM, I think he's middle of the pack. What else do you have, what proof that I hate Rick Smith? Nothing? Then move along. I'm not whining about ****, just pointed out some shitty players that played like **** because they had a shitty attitude and didn't do **** to help out their own careers.

So kiss my ass with you're BS that I complain and whine about Smith all the time or that I will if he makes more picks that fail. Unless you have a Magic 8 ball that really is magic.

Now, all that said if this season goes sideways the organization needs to change HC's and GM's IMHO. Want to defend O'Brien now?
 
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banned1976 said:
Why do you think I hate Smith?

Listen, you know I can go through and name a bunch of other players he missed on and you can keep naming other GM's that have missed too. I've never said Smith is a terrible GM, I think he's middle of the pack. What else do you have, what proof that I hate Rick Smith? Nothing? Then move along. I'm not whining about ****, just pointed out some shitty players that played like **** because they had a shitty attitude and didn't do **** to help out their own careers.

So kiss my ass with you're BS that I complain and whine about Smith all the time or that I will if he makes more picks that fail. Unless you have a Magic 8 ball that really is magic.

Now, all that said if this season goes sideways the organization needs to change HC's and GM's IMHO. Want to defend O'Brien now?
Click to expand...


Fred is a guy that thinks I'm a Pats fan because I respect the way they go about doing their business.

I'm still laughing at Fred today. If he only knew me.
 
zshawn10 said:
@LopezOnSports
With Jaelen Strong's release, 14 of the 18 Rick Smith 2nd-4th round picks between 2011-2015 no longer are with the club. Stunning ineptitude
Click to expand...
infantrycak said:
For a reference point NE has 7 (1 starter) of 20 players selected 2-4, 2011-15.
Click to expand...

Another point here is the time period falls smack with a HC change in the middle. That always results in a huge amount of turnover for new players to fit new systems.
 
Do any of you remember when ESPN.com ranked all 32 NFL GM's? Where was Rick Smith rated again? And do you think he's gone higher or lower since then?
 
Bulls on Parade said:
Do any of you remember when ESPN.com ranked all 32 NFL GM's? Where was Rick Smith rated again? And do you think he's gone higher or lower since then?
Click to expand...

I think he has been rated as high as 8 over the years. I always thought that was high even in 2011 and 2012.

Forthewin has him ranked #18 this year. I see that as fair.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/05/nfl...2017-bill-belichick-john-schneider-john-elway

Foxsports has him at #24.

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/galler...jerry-jones-belichick-kraft-franchises-011117

I haven't seen ESPN's rankings for GM's, not sure they even do that anymore. I couldn't find anything from 2016, but I didn't look that hard.

I think it's fair to rank Smith between 18 and 24. Signing Brock and trading him for a 2nd round pick a year after hasn't helped him.
 
infantrycak said:
Love you to find a single example of me complimenting RS.
Click to expand...

You do seem to defend all things Texans when it comes to the way they go about their business. It's been that way for yrs. Care to point out posts where you've been critical of the way the Texans go about their business. (Excluding firing your guy Kubiak)
 
steelbtexan said:
You do seem to defend all things Texans when it comes to the way they go about their business. It's been that way for yrs. Care to point out posts where you've been critical of the way the Texans go about their business. (Excluding firing your guy Kubiak)
Click to expand...


'Cak is often critical of management. He's just as critical or more so of particular wording or stating opinion as fact. Bias toward each other due to knowledge is a dangerous thing. You are not so very different from each other, but the way you express yourself and what you focus on it radically different
 
JB said:
'Cak is often critical of management. He's just as critical or more so of particular wording or stating opinion as fact. Bias toward each other due to knowledge is a dangerous thing. You are not so very different from each other, but the way you express yourself and what you focus on it radically different
Click to expand...

True and that's why we are friends.

He's a little rough around the edges, as am I.

But he's good people. I like pulling his chain and he returns the favor.
 
Elsewhere it was discussed that a good qb makes a coach look good (which I agree with). I would argue that a good coach makes a gm look good as well. I get the impression that BoB is trying to bring NE to Houston with their culture of not putting up w/ guff or a poor performance or two from players but he left their playbook and any ideas on how to implement it in NE. So players like Strong are cut based on performance when there isn't any opportunity to perform because of an inept offense. I would be fine with getting a new GM, but something that doesn't add up for me in evaluating RSmith is why has the defense performed so well but the offense so poorly? Doesn't it make sense that RSmith has given BoB more input on the offensive side of the ball because he was supposedly a guru? Players brought in on the defensive side of the ball have their potential realized when offensive players have their's squandered -- same GM for both offense and defense but different coaches. Seems like the evidence points to the offensive coach as being the problem to me. All of this to say that their may be some hope for the future of the franchise if we keep RSmith around but find a better coach (or by some miracle, BoB pulls his head out of his ass and turns out to be the offensive guru he was purported to be after all).
 
**Honoring Earl 34 Post #1823 Did Not Post Before Reply**

True...Tom Brady is a smart QB who realizes as long as he keeps winning, his endorsement monies can far exceed what he may try to gain on his NE contract. Far too many players are short sited on their contract demands versus looking at the big financial picture of what winning brings to the table. As such, Elway parlayed his winning into owning almost every dealership in Denver....if you lived in Denver, why wouldn't you want to buy a vehicle from John Elway? Successful players should know that the city in which they had their success will always take care them if they invest not only their time but their money into positive local ventures.
 
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OptimisticTexan said:
**Honoring Earl 34 Post #1823 Did Not Post Before Reply**

True...Tom Brady is a smart QB who realizes as long as he keeps winning, his endorsement monies can far exceed what he may try to gain on his NE contract. Far too many players are short sited on their contract demands versus looking at the big financial picture of what winning brings to the table. As such, Elway parlayed his winning into owning almost every dealership in Denver....if you lived in Denver, why wouldn't you want to buy a vehicle from John Elway? Successful players should know that the city in which they had their success will always take care them if they invest not only their time but their money into positive local ventures.
Click to expand...
Right.
And who's to say Brady isn't in some deals that were spearheaded by Kraft?
There could be more than 1001 ways to get paid.
 
"I think stability in the organization is important, and Rick's doing a good job for us," McNair said. "He works hard. He knows what our objectives are, and he goes about achieving them the right way.

"Rick's very diligent. He communicates well. He knows what our objectives are. He's put together a good scouting staff, and he works well with the coaching staff. I thought this was a good time to get this done." - Bob McNair
Click to expand...

To be perfectly honest, I seriously doubt that Bob McNair would know a good scouting staff from a bad scouting staff. The Texans former Director of College Scouting, Mike Maccagnan, now GM for NY Jets, has created a real dumpster fire in New York.

McNair rewarded Smith for getting Osweiler signed. Sometimes I wonder if McNair even has a clue. Clueless in Houston!!!
 
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TexansSeminole said:
Except that the players haven't accomplished anything with other teams. If they didn't fit the new system, that's one thing, but they actually don't belong in the NFL at all.
Click to expand...

Doesn't change the fact players are much more likely to stick with the schemes/coaches they are selected for.
 
infantrycak said:
Doesn't change the fact players are much more likely to stick with the schemes/coaches they are selected for.
Click to expand...

I agree, but the schemes are not so different throughout the league to where a player only fits one. If those players were NFL players, they'd be on a roster. They aren't expensive.
 
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