frethack
Rookie
Thanks for the nice breakdown. Just watched the game, so Im a little behind. Is it me or did NO run a lot of blitzes and stunts? Is this normal for preseason?
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- Thread starter PockyAF
- Start date
Thanks for the nice breakdown. Just watched the game, so Im a little behind. Is it me or did NO run a lot of blitzes and stunts? Is this normal for preseason?
They did. & I think that end around & jet sweep they ran was a little much as well.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Nice post A80!
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Savage got the ball out as quickly as he could have...........the pressure was immediate because Ervin can't pass block. Savage got hit just as he released the ball. Despite that, the pass was just slightly underthrown with Strong behind his man anyway. He went up and couldn't come up with the ball despite it hitting his hands first, and despite the fact that Latimore is more than 4 inches shorter than Strong, but jumped almost high enough to meet Strong. Strong should have been able to easily outjump Latimore (Strong was still above him) and come down with that ball. Watson "jump ball" examples were all with the D having indisputable position on the receivers.
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Texansballer74
The Marine
I truly think this was planned by both coaches. Because I never seen this many blitz and schemes in a preseason game.
I have.
I read that some coaches ( those that have a good relationship with each other) often agree to work on something.
I believe Kubiak and Sean P had such a relationship.
frethack
Rookie
Well if BOB and Peyton agreed to work on blitz protections and we were expecting it, we surely need a LOT more work.
amazing80
Hall of Fame
I agree, but Watsons ball hit Strong in his hands better and yet he still didn't catch it. Poor play on Strong's part.
amazing80
Hall of Fame
We sure do.
But let's not forget that Martin hasn't seen real pressure for a year and a half now.
Lamm himself, played mostly as the extra OT last year in the jumbo package (run, quick pass), with more bodies on the line to help out one another.
As a whole, these guys haven't played together with Giacomini being a newcomer himself.
amazing80
Hall of Fame
Our starting 5 are ok, but they have room to improve. The interior is more of a concern than the tackles at this point to me. They have not been playing well. I actually think X has best the most solid of the 3 interior guys with Allen and Martin struggling. I think martin played well the first two games, but really struggled vs the Saints. Allen has been the weak link each week.
PapaL
Loose Screw
Out of curiosity, are calling the run plays Savage checked into poor because of the end result or poor because of something you noticed formation/personnel wise?Here is the breakdown of every Savage pass
2nd and 4, good protection, nice on time throw to Ellington. First down
Not a pass attempt, but the next play Tom spent a lot of time at the line changing the play. He checked into a poor run play that went for 2 off the left side.
2nd and 9, 5 wide empty set. He made a good read and had Ellington coming open, but Martin (who struggled tonight) let his guy slip off the block last second and batted the pass down. It is worth nothing that this was a stunt. Allen picked up his guy, but Martin didn't get his guy quick enough coming off the switch. Lamm was starting to get beat here too, but Tom would have stayed clean with the throw coming out on time.
3rd and 9, and this is the exact play that Tom has done over and over again and what I think is his biggest flaw. He snapped the ball, locked onto Anderson who was smothered in coverage, but threw the ball to him anyway, even with a clean pocket. Just a terrible decision.
His next pass came on 2nd and 13, after a holding play on a run call (Martin was one of them). Tom had a nice pocket, made a quick read and threw it over the middle to Ervin.
3rd and 9 he throws short again to Ellington, gain of about 4. It's hard to see, but I think he had Anderson open near the first down, the pocket was clean, was just starting to collapse when he threw the ball.
The next series started off with a run, but Ervin got blown up. Both Allen and Martin failed from the start, plus Griffen completely ignored the LB who would have made the play if the DL didn't. That was just a terrible play from everyone, although the tackles looked good on an island.
2nd and 14, completed pass, but once again Savage locked on to Anderson before throwing it to him. He needs to be careful.
3rd and about 10, great throw for the first down. The RT got beat, but Savage uploaded it just in time with great accuracy.
The next play Savage changed the play at the line and checked into another poor run play. Martin got blown off the ball and walked into the backfield.
2nd and 11, Ervin got blown up and allowed the LB to get right into Tom's face. He threw the ball up for grabs to Strong, 50/50 ball, almost picked off the tip. Something of note IMO, his throw up to Strong is no different then Watson's throw ups. One isn't more accurate than the other in that type of throw.
3rd and 11, I noted this play yesterday. This is the exact same play that confused the OL and the QB later in the game that allowed a blind side sack on Watson. No one touched the outside guy and he came free to the QB, the difference here with Savage is his throw was in the middle of the field to Anderson, where Watson's throw was to the right side and he had his back to the defender. The catch was short of the sticks.
1st and 10, nice play action pass to Griffen for the first. Was a two yard pass, but a nice run and gain. Good play that was executed well
1st and 10, quick throw to Ellington on a screen, nice throw and run. We went hurry up right before that.
The next play was a run to the right, Martin and Allen got zero push, might have lost about a yard.
3rd and 2, throws to Griffen on a quick pass, he had a LB cut in front of Griffen, chasing Ervin out of the backfield, Savage was patient enough to wait for it to clear before he threw it. Good pass.
1st and 10, quick out pass to Anderson (TE), the throw was slightly behind Anderson and he dropped it when the LB fell on him during the tackled. Similar off target throw we see occasionally from Watson, should still have been caught.
2nd and 10, Savage recognized the CB blitz and threw it right away to Ellington on the curl for a nice throw and run.
2nd and 7, 5 wide empty set, they blitzed up the middle, bringing 6 with only 5 blockers, Savage got rid of right away to Strong, slightly behind him, but good throw and catch. Illegal formation, 5 yard penalty.
2nd and 12, his first read was covered, he came off it late, the pocket was being pushed back, he drifted and threw up a lob to Ellington on his back foot.The placement was good, Ellington should catch it.
3rd and 12, Ervin with another terrible block attempt, he did a pathetic chip before escaping out the backfield, Savage tried to throw it to him, but it was blocked. This is a play Watson had the ability to run and get a better line of sight, Savage was just too slow. Either way Ervin failed him on the block assist.
That was the end of Savage and the starting oline. I hate that we pulled them all so early. This unit needs more reps than they got, including Savage.
amazing80
Hall of Fame
Great question!
I guess thats hard to answer because I don't know what the original play was, but from my view, checking into runs for those plays didn't seem so obvious to me. Not sure what he saw to make him do that. Obviously the end result wasn't great.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Texans pay visit to shelter for Hurricane Harvey at NRG Center
10:50 PM CT
HOUSTON -- Tom Savage stood in the center of the shelter for those affected by Hurricane Harvey at the NRG Center on Thursday, surrounded by cots, passing out hats and taking pictures with fans.
Savage, along with 54 of his teammates and members of the Houston Texans' staff, spent more than an hour meeting with some of the people who have been displaced by flooding caused by Hurricane Harvey. They also took photos and signed autographs.
Chris, a 10-year-old fan, ran up to Savage to ask him to sign his football, and then a game of catch ensued. It started with a short pass, and then Savage told him, "Go deep."
Chris ran back and made the catch.
"Go deeper," Savage said, and Chris ran behind a row of cots. He dropped two balls before catching the third pass. Savage put his arms in the air, and Chris ran toward him, cheering.
Chris' mom, Antonia, who requested her last name not be used, looked on with tears in her eyes.
"I was sitting down on the cots trying to figure out which bills I could pay," Antonia said. "I didn't know what we were going to do.
REST OF THE STORY
10:50 PM CT
- Sarah BarshopESPN Staff Writer
HOUSTON -- Tom Savage stood in the center of the shelter for those affected by Hurricane Harvey at the NRG Center on Thursday, surrounded by cots, passing out hats and taking pictures with fans.
Savage, along with 54 of his teammates and members of the Houston Texans' staff, spent more than an hour meeting with some of the people who have been displaced by flooding caused by Hurricane Harvey. They also took photos and signed autographs.
Chris, a 10-year-old fan, ran up to Savage to ask him to sign his football, and then a game of catch ensued. It started with a short pass, and then Savage told him, "Go deep."
Chris ran back and made the catch.
"Go deeper," Savage said, and Chris ran behind a row of cots. He dropped two balls before catching the third pass. Savage put his arms in the air, and Chris ran toward him, cheering.
Chris' mom, Antonia, who requested her last name not be used, looked on with tears in her eyes.
"I was sitting down on the cots trying to figure out which bills I could pay," Antonia said. "I didn't know what we were going to do.
REST OF THE STORY
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
John McClainVerified account@McClain_on_NFL 51m51 minutes ago
Hopkins on Savage "I expect him to continue where he left off in preseason. I think he can b real good. He knows this offense."
Hopkins on Savage "I expect him to continue where he left off in preseason. I think he can b real good. He knows this offense."
People know a lot of things. Hopefully Savage can effectively apply his knowledge physically on the field on a elite level.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Here is a link to a piece about Brown. But what's interesting is the video half way down titled "Hopkins Signs Extension" (begins at 30 secs) where Adam Wexler talks about Savage vs. Watson and who might play when.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Pushing the same narrative. What rookie quarterback comes in ready to run their teams original offense? None that's why the offense at that time is built around what they do best. They are also brought along slowly. And by year 3 they are given the entire playbook.
Savage only really looked good against the Patriots. I like that he stood tall in the pocket under all that heat the Saints brought on him.
But Bill O'Brien was never going to play Watson this year. Well if Savage gets hurt then thats a different story. He is going to ride and die with Savage. Which should install that confidence for Savage to go out there and perform to the best of his abilities. You don't want the man thinking if he messes up, he's going to get pulled. Come guys its just that simple
Texansballer74
The Marine
Pushing the same narrative. What rookie quarterback comes in ready to run their teams original offense? None that's why the offense at that time is built around what they do best. They are also brought along slowly. And by year 3 they are given the entire playbook.
Savage only really looked good against the Patriots. I like that he stood tall in the pocket under all that heat the Saints brought on him.
But Bill O'Brien was never going to play Watson this year. Well if Savage gets hurt then thats a different story. He is going to ride and die with Savage. Which should install that confidence for Savage to go out there and perform to the best of his abilities. You don't want the man thinking if he messes up, he's going to get pulled. Come guys its just that simple
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Pushing the narrative? I simply posted a video.............I wasn't filmed for the video..........I didn't produce the video.............I didn't even attach an opinion-oriented commentary to the video. I didn't push any narrative. Your extensive response though did push a narrative...........twice.
Texansballer74
The Marine
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Has nothing to do with my feelings. On its face, it is hard bent to interpret your "pushing the narrative" as not responding directly to my posting this video. But if the comment was meant to be directed towards Adam, we're good.
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CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Dougherty in a podcast stated since the Texans haven't supposedly shown that much of the pie, he and Vandermeer essentially asked John Harris "How much of the pie have we seen of what O'brien, Savage and the offense has to offer?" Harris responded "It's one of those teeny tiny pieces that you say, hey I don't want that one and pass it around the dinner table."
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I can believe it considering that we haven't had a qb skill or tenure-wise here to execute what OB may want to try to do on offense. Every qb he's had here seems as if they've had to pair the offense down to either make it easier for them to grasp or execute b/c they've lacked 1 or both of the elements above. Savage is actually the 1st qb to start a game for us in Ob's time here who has at least 1 of those elements - tenure in it to learn it's nuances. If he can bring a modicum of skill to add to the tenure, our offense may just be watchable.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Aaron Wilson@AaronWilson_NFL 11m11 minutes ago
Tom Savage on QBs coach Sean Ryan: 'i can't say enough about Sean and what he's done for the quarterback room. He's simplified it'
Tom Savage on QBs coach Sean Ryan: 'i can't say enough about Sean and what he's done for the quarterback room. He's simplified it'
Watchable would be an improvement over the steaming pile of awful we've been accustomed to .... Hell mediocre might be enough if the defense is as good as last year.
Its happened before .... 85 Bears and 2000 Ravens.
gs27
Veteran
Hypothetical question - What if Savage stays healthy and plays well this season?
Lets say 4000+ YDs, 25+ TDs, +/-10 INTs, +/-65% CP, which would make him a top 10 QB; not a MVP candidate, but much better than we have had and better than the odds say you will get from a 1st round QB (less than 1 in 3 1st round QBs become a top 10 QB).
Do we pay Savage a 20+ M/YR contract (meaning we would likely not be able to sign Clowney), franchise tag Savage at +/-$22M and delay decision, or let Savage go and risk taking a chance that Watson beats the odds and becomes a quality starter the following season?
With good QB play so hard to find, I would franchise tag Savage and hold off on offering Clowney a long term contract until after his 5th year option, thus delaying the decision a season. If both stayed healthy and played well I would give Savage the long term contract. If either are injured or play poorly the decision is easy.
Please don't reply with your absolute certainty that this couldn't happen, I am aware the odds are not in Savages favor, just curious what most think we should do if it does happen. Seems like most fans are dead set on Watson being the future and Savage just being a place holder, regardless of how Savage performs this season.
Either way Rick Smith will probably be blamed for doing the wrong thing 3 years down the road
Lets say 4000+ YDs, 25+ TDs, +/-10 INTs, +/-65% CP, which would make him a top 10 QB; not a MVP candidate, but much better than we have had and better than the odds say you will get from a 1st round QB (less than 1 in 3 1st round QBs become a top 10 QB).
Do we pay Savage a 20+ M/YR contract (meaning we would likely not be able to sign Clowney), franchise tag Savage at +/-$22M and delay decision, or let Savage go and risk taking a chance that Watson beats the odds and becomes a quality starter the following season?
With good QB play so hard to find, I would franchise tag Savage and hold off on offering Clowney a long term contract until after his 5th year option, thus delaying the decision a season. If both stayed healthy and played well I would give Savage the long term contract. If either are injured or play poorly the decision is easy.
Please don't reply with your absolute certainty that this couldn't happen, I am aware the odds are not in Savages favor, just curious what most think we should do if it does happen. Seems like most fans are dead set on Watson being the future and Savage just being a place holder, regardless of how Savage performs this season.
Either way Rick Smith will probably be blamed for doing the wrong thing 3 years down the road
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
Hypothetical question - What if Savage stays healthy and plays well this season?
Lets say 4000+ YDs, 25+ TDs, +/-10 INTs, +/-65% CP, which would make him a top 10 QB; not a MVP candidate, but much better than we have had and better than the odds say you will get from a 1st round QB (less than 1 in 3 1st round QBs become a top 10 QB).
Do we pay Savage a 20+ M/YR contract (meaning we would likely not be able to sign Clowney), franchise tag Savage at +/-$22M and delay decision, or let Savage go and risk taking a chance that Watson beats the odds and becomes a quality starter the following season?
With good QB play so hard to find, I would franchise tag Savage and hold off on offering Clowney a long term contract until after his 5th year option, thus delaying the decision a season. If both stayed healthy and played well I would give Savage the long term contract. If either are injured or play poorly the decision is easy.
Please don't reply with your absolute certainty that this couldn't happen, I am aware the odds are not in Savages favor, just curious what most think we should do if it does happen. Seems like most fans are dead set on Watson being the future and Savage just being a place holder, regardless of how Savage performs this season.
Either way Rick Smith will probably be blamed for doing the wrong thing 3 years down the road
IF Savage stays healthy all year, and IF Savage does all you propose, and IF Savage obviously proves he's the guy, then trade Watson and get a draft pick or two back for him.
But it's not going to happen. Any of it.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Hypothetical question - What if Savage stays healthy and plays well this season?
Lets say 4000+ YDs, 25+ TDs, +/-10 INTs, +/-65% CP, which would make him a top 10 QB; not a MVP candidate, but much better than we have had and better than the odds say you will get from a 1st round QB (less than 1 in 3 1st round QBs become a top 10 QB).
Do we pay Savage a 20+ M/YR contract (meaning we would likely not be able to sign Clowney), franchise tag Savage at +/-$22M and delay decision, or let Savage go and risk taking a chance that Watson beats the odds and becomes a quality starter the following season?
With good QB play so hard to find, I would franchise tag Savage and hold off on offering Clowney a long term contract until after his 5th year option, thus delaying the decision a season. If both stayed healthy and played well I would give Savage the long term contract. If either are injured or play poorly the decision is easy.
Please don't reply with your absolute certainty that this couldn't happen, I am aware the odds are not in Savages favor, just curious what most think we should do if it does happen. Seems like most fans are dead set on Watson being the future and Savage just being a place holder, regardless of how Savage performs this season.
Either way Rick Smith will probably be blamed for doing the wrong thing 3 years down the road
I'll be honest, this is what I'm hoping happens. I don't have much hope because there's just not much evidence there that Savage is going to suddenly kick it up a notch but I have this unrealistic hope that he finally answers our ongoing QB questions.
If he did that statistically then I do hit him with the tag for a season and I say "Do it again". I say this because it's not just about whether he can do those things or not. It's about whether he can stay upright and in the game for a whole season and I want to see him do it twice before I basically turn Watson into trade bait and sign Savage up for a big, fat franchise QB contract. I'd need him to do it again to make myself really believe what I'd just seen.
Also I don't think the Clowney conflict you mention is going to be a problem. I bet we don't even get to see Clowney for more than 10 games this year. I just don't think he's ever going to be particularly durable. I hope proves me wrong just like I hope Savage proves us all wrong but I think Clowney's knees are going to preclude him ever being the player he could have been and I think that the Texans will let someone else pay him a buttload of money when the time comes.
Mr.Scarface
Rookie
Hypothetical question - What if Savage stays healthy and plays well this season?
Lets say 4000+ YDs, 25+ TDs, +/-10 INTs, +/-65% CP, which would make him a top 10 QB; not a MVP candidate, but much better than we have had and better than the odds say you will get from a 1st round QB (less than 1 in 3 1st round QBs become a top 10 QB).
Do we pay Savage a 20+ M/YR contract (meaning we would likely not be able to sign Clowney), franchise tag Savage at +/-$22M and delay decision, or let Savage go and risk taking a chance that Watson beats the odds and becomes a quality starter the following season?
With good QB play so hard to find, I would franchise tag Savage and hold off on offering Clowney a long term contract until after his 5th year option, thus delaying the decision a season. If both stayed healthy and played well I would give Savage the long term contract. If either are injured or play poorly the decision is easy.
Please don't reply with your absolute certainty that this couldn't happen, I am aware the odds are not in Savages favor, just curious what most think we should do if it does happen. Seems like most fans are dead set on Watson being the future and Savage just being a place holder, regardless of how Savage performs this season.
Either way Rick Smith will probably be blamed for doing the wrong thing 3 years down the road
u tag Savage and trade him......for a #1.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
yep..Watson is the heir apparent and you go ahead and trade Savage to some qb thirsty team for a 1st or a 2nd.
The Texans have been a QB thirsty team for years... now you want to get rid of one they finally hit on?
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Apparently not some of us. Some of us are dead set on Watson no matter what Savage does.
That's called being a real special kind of stupid and is also a good way to get yourself a gig as a GM of the Cleveland Browns.
amazing80
Hall of Fame
Yea, I love Watson as a player and really believe in him as much as the next guy, but if Savage comes out and lights it up and then does it again in 2018, how can you ignore that for an unknown player in Watson? That's crazy. I love the Texans and whatever QB they start, except for Schaub. I didn't like him much, aside from two years.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Schaub could be hard to warm up to. I felt that way too. I have never been able to put my finger on why exactly but I just never had a lot of faith in him even when he was producing. I knew enough not to want to throw him away though. Not until it became obvious that he was no longer even the player he had been prior to that injury.
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Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Depends on whether you think 1 season is a "hit" or not. I don't. We have his heir apparent who could actually be better and is younger on the bench & we don't have a 1st or 2nd pick for next year. We also need o-line help. The safer play is to go ahead and get what you could get for Savage instead of dropping 20+ million dollars in a "show me" season.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
It's more of a "do it again" season for Savage. Watson would be the "show me" and you are banking on the "his ceiling is so much higher" theory.
A bird in the hand is worth more than two in the bush.
Why go out for milk when you got a cow at home?
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
My biggest issue with Schaub was that due to his extremely limited physical skills everything had to go right on a play for him to be successful.. He didn't have the physical ability to overcome a broken play very often and in order to consistently beat winning teams you need a QB who can do that and Schaub couldn't. He didn't have the feet to escape preasure and he didn't have the arm strength to fire into tight windows, it also cost us huge plays down field (reason why Andre a HOF caliber WR never had 10+ TDs in his career)
Between the ears Schaub was as good as anyone in the NFL. He was extremely smart, knew where to go with the football, and was accurate as hell. However after his injury and his physical skills slipped even further his mental strength/accuracy could no longer mask/overcome his deficiencies and the wheels completely fell off.
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Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Look I like Savage...I was one of the few who was campaigning for him to get a look before Hoyer, Mallet and Oz...but draft capital was dropped on Watson & if the opportunity arises to recoup some of that to improve & build upon a burgeoning young core for our future, you take that.
Furthermore Savage would be by no means a bird in the hand. Rob Johnson, Derek Anderson, Blake Bortles, nick Foles, Ryan Fitzpatrick...all guys who put it together for 1 season, got paid & then went on to stink up the joint.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
So you have two QB's. One was drafted in 2017 and the other in 2014. In this scenario one has just had a top ten season in the first year he will have been given the job and the other has spent one year on the bench learning the system. You proceed to call getting rid of the only QB on your roster who has started a game and who presumably led the team to a winning season (based on the stats given) and finished in the top ten "The safer play"?
That just sounds nuts to me.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
& hauling off to pay a guy who hasn't shown that he can stay on the field top 5 money off the strength of 1 season b/c we're so qb starved just sounds knee jerk to me
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
It's a one year franchise tag.. if he performs like a top 10 QB, it's not a knee jerk to tag him and see if he can do it again. It would be ignorant to not see if he could do it again and put all your eggs in the basket of essentially a second year rookie. Especially when you've been searching for a top tier starter (hell just adequate starter) for how many years now?
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I don't see how using the tag with no future amount of money committed to him is knee jerk but OK.
You might want to get those picks traded for Watson back but they're gone and one top-ten season from Savage when he is about to be an unrestricted free agent who the Texans have no control over isn't going to get us anything but a compensatory pick. That's it. We're not getting a couple of picks for him. At least I don't think we can. We don't own him in 2018 at all and he doesn't owe us **** if we're not interested in keeping him after he plays a season like that.
I'm far from a cap expert or someone who understands how the finer points of the NFL player transactions work and I'll be the first to admit it. I don't know what we get for a QB who finished in the top ten. Is it based on his value to us when we lost him or on his draft position? Either way it doesn't go higher than a 3.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
You only tag him and bring him back if u can't get at least a 2nd for him. Bringing him back for 20 + million off the strength of 1 season is shortsighted. Watson, Foreman, Nuk, Fuller and a young stud LT taken in the 1st or 2nd next year with a pick we could get potentially get for Savage is the future.
The whole putting our eggs in basket thing...that's what we're essentially doing now as neither Savage or Watson has thrown a TD pass in the regular season...collectively 2 starts between them.
Go ahead and get the future started.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
That's just it. You can't get a 2nd for him. He's not under contract after this season at all. He's going to be an unrestricted free agent if I understand this correctly. All you can do is offer him a contract, tag him, or let him go and get your 3 or worse as compensation.