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State of the O-line

jradMIT

jradMIT

Veteran
According to last year

PFF rank the unit 18th overall

I don't think it's quite as bad as the general sentiment, but definitely it needs to be better to pick up the slack for the qb situation.

LT- Brown played much better than expected after the injury last year, going forward can he remain at the same level? Stay healthy? I somewhat cautiously optimistic he can be next year, but regardless his replacement needs to be acquired through draft this year, it's my number 1 priority in the draft a guy who can become the LT

LG Xman - Good run blocker, pass blocking not so much, Does he have any more progression in him? Probably not, maybe he can be coached up.

C - Mancz I thought had was a pleasant surprise, filling in for Martin he was the 2nd best Olineman on the team, question becomes can he move to guard?

RG- Allen - big letdown FA acquisition, was getting his manhood taking from him against the run and wasn't much better in pass protection. What happened? Can you blame the injuries? This guy started for KC and was a 2nd round pick. Is it too soon to write him off?

RT Newton/Clark - Newtons career might be over, he was serviceable at best, Clark was absolutely trash. One positive I can say about him is that he was very good at holding at the right time to prevent sack fumbles. This is the most pressing need and preferably needs to be addressed through FA with a solid starter.

Nick Martin when he comes back can he or Mancz play guard? If you believe Allen was hampered by injuries, then maybe the situation inside is ok especially with another player added via the draft.


I think Bergstrom is gone, any thoughts about the other guys on the roster and the PS? Do they fit into the mix?

All in all, I think if you add a decent starter at RT and get something from Martin or from Allen next year, the play should greatly improve. Tackle depth is sorely needed behind a starter, I think the inside is in much better shape. Like to get some other thoughts.


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I'd say that RT is our most pressing need. If Martin comes back strong, then we have a few options inside to include Aboushi who did ok as well. LT is something we need to consider as well and if the guy we draft has some ability, then perhaps he starts at RT and eventually replaces Brown. Ideally, we draft or pickup 2 OTs this off-season.
 
This is merely looking to next year based on what we have now ...

Brown is still solid but no telling when that nosedives, these things usually do.

Mixed bag at LG, but no less than adequate on the whole.

Hopeful for a big contribution from Martin. Won't not be a question mark there though until we see it.

Trash at RG.

Trash at RT.

Bottom line - We need two new faces to come in (FA or draft) and hit the line running or we're in trouble.
 
Can Mancz or Martin play guard? Looks like Mancz started out as guard in college and moved to center his senior year.


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Must be the off season again...


We need an instant starter at RT, depth for LT and a QB.

And decent playcalling... yeah we definitely need decent play calling
 
jradMIT said:
According to last year

PFF rank the unit 18th overall

I don't think it's quite as bad as the general sentiment, but definitely it needs to be better to pick up the slack for the qb situation.

LT- Brown played much better than expected after the injury last year, going forward can he remain at the same level? Stay healthy? I somewhat cautiously optimistic he can be next year, but regardless his replacement needs to be acquired through draft this year, it's my number 1 priority in the draft a guy who can become the LT

LG Xman - Good run blocker, pass blocking not so much, Does he have any more progression in him? Probably not, maybe he can be coached up.

C - Mancz I thought had was a pleasant surprise, filling in for Martin he was the 2nd best Olineman on the team, question becomes can he move to guard?

RG- Allen - big letdown FA acquisition, was getting his manhood taking from him against the run and wasn't much better in pass protection. What happened? Can you blame the injuries? This guy started for KC and was a 2nd round pick. Is it too soon to write him off?

RT Newton/Clark - Newtons career might be over, he was serviceable at best, Clark was absolutely trash. One positive I can say about him is that he was very good at holding at the right time to prevent sack fumbles. This is the most pressing need and preferably needs to be addressed through FA with a solid starter.

Nick Martin when he comes back can he or Mancz play guard? If you believe Allen was hampered by injuries, then maybe the situation inside is ok especially with another player added via the draft.


I think Bergstrom is gone, any thoughts about the other guys on the roster and the PS? Do they fit into the mix?

All in all, I think if you add a decent starter at RT and get something from Martin or from Allen next year, the play should greatly improve. Tackle depth is sorely needed behind a starter, I think the inside is in much better shape. Like to get some other thoughts.


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Good post jrad!

I agree Newton is probably done and Clark probably gone. If they look to the Draft for a starting RT they will probably have to get one within the first 2 rounds. This draft doesn't have any real studs (Thomas, Munoz, or Pace) that can step right in at a high level. All of them in this draft will need some time to develop but they could develop into a decent RT during the course of the year. A couple of names that could be there when the Texans pick 25th are: Ramczyk and Bolles. Ramczyk is considered by many to be the best OT in this years draft but he just had hip surgery which should throw up a bunch of red flags for any team both short term and long term! Bolles on the other hand, who played at Utah, is a little light (296 lbs) and is projected as more of a "zone blocking" OT. Not sure either of these fits what BOB is looking for.

With the O-line now, Brown should be good for at least a couple more years and maybe longer, and XSF I think will get better in his pass-pro and as you stated he's good at run blocking so I don't think he is going anywhere. Again, Mancz has been a pleasant surprise with his play although I think he got off to a rough start like most of the O-line in those early games. His development as a Center could be key in moving Martin to RG or at least Martin might have a tough time getting the OC spot back again. Right now I just don't know about Martin and how good he could be but now Mancz has a whole year's experience that Martin just lost out on. Either way, they will have a good backup OC if the starter goes down. Allen will be back but in what capacity I don't know. I had heard he had some injuries later in the season that might have affected his play (Like when he came back from his concussion.) but I just don't know how much he was affected by them. I do know he looked awful bad in the first half of the Bengals game and gave up at least 1 sack. Poor Savage had literally no time to throw and was getting killed back there! The Texans can't allow that to happen again, and whether they draft another RG or put Martin or Mancz in there I don't think they can just blindly hand the job back to Allen without some serious competition for that spot. If Allen wins it back fine. But just don't hand it to him!

As for others on the roster that have a chance to help, I think Aboushi has earned some playing time and could challenge Allen for the RG spot. Lamm is another UDFA from 2 years ago that has managed to stick around and is developing into solid backup who gets in there sometime as a 6th linemen on certain packages.

I think the key for this O-line and how good (or bad) they will be is going to rest on who they get for RT this coming season, whether it's in FA or the Draft. JMO!
 
Mancz at guard is an option. But his current weight is listed at 310. Allen is about the same. So this may or may not be an issue. Martin I believe is about 300. He undoubtably will put on some weight. X I believe is about 320. So the question becomes one of whether the team wants to move to the heavier power guard in the 320 - 330 range or stay with the lighter quicker guard.
 
jradMIT said:
Can Mancz or Martin play guard? Looks like Mancz started out as guard in college and moved to center his senior year.


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Martin played guard in college as well.
 
Every time I really watch XSF I wonder what other people are seeing. I'm reminded of Boomer(?) talking about a couple of great lead blocks by XSF and then he calls up a replay to show one of them, and then has to struggle to find something to say. XSF's greatest achievement was not tackling himself on the play, because he was a mess trying to pull and certainly wasn't the reason for what Miller made of the run. He and Mancz spend most plays together double teaming, and left alone usually get abused ... Allan and XSF opinions would probably be swapped if they were used similarly (junk unless 2v1). I forget which game it was, but I re-watched every offensive snap and they (XSF+Mancz) spent 95% of the game 'successfully' double teaming run and pass, the other 5% was solo duty with both getting wrecked.

I want to see these replays where folks are seeing the positive outlook on XSF as well as Mancz.

Edit: I also wonder about those worried about the decline of Brown. Dude played this season on one leg and was still quite a monster. Not his usual self obviously, but we can hope that with the next 5+ months of rest and rehab he'll be much more capable (which would return him to the elite category).
 
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As always it depends on health.

Will Brown be even better with another offseason to recover? Or will age finally start to show?

Will Martin return healthy?

Will Allen make it through a season without the injury issues that plagued him this season?

Can Mancz/Martin play guard and win the RG spot allowing Allen/X to battle it out for the LG position? Would moving one of them to RG be a significant upgrade over a "healthy" Jeff Allen?

I think the only position that needs to be addressed on the Oline with a top free agent or top 2 round draft pick is RT. We've got a 2nd round pick entering the mix this season in Martin.

Other than RT I feel good about letting Martin/Mancz/X/Allen battle it out to see who our best interior 3 are this season.
 
TheRealJoker said:
As always it depends on health.

Will Brown be even better with another offseason to recover? Or will age finally start to show?

Will Martin return healthy?

Will Allen make it through a season without the injury issues that plagued him this season?

Can Mancz/Martin play guard and win the RG spot allowing Allen/X to battle it out for the LG position? Would moving one of them to RG be a significant upgrade over a "healthy" Jeff Allen?

I think the only position that needs to be addressed on the Oline with a top free agent or top 2 round draft pick is RT. We've got a 2nd round pick entering the mix this season in Martin.

Other than RT I feel good about letting Martin/Mancz/X/Allen battle it out to see who our best interior 3 are this season.
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Good analysis. My only addition would be to throw another OG into the mix - a third or forth round draft pick. I also think the organization may look for a veteran FA at OT, as you pointed out, but available cap space may dictate here.
 
Number19 said:
Good analysis. My only addition would be to throw another OG into the mix - a third or forth round draft pick. I also think the organization may look for a veteran FA at OT, as you pointed out, but available cap space may dictate here.
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The only reason I don't see them doing that is the emergence of Mancz this season. They only activate 7 Olinemen on game day.

If we draft another interior OL after spending a 2nd on Martin last season and Mancz being above average as a starter this season then that tells me X or Allen are gone before the draft. And I don't see that happening.
 
REM320232.png


Carolina Panthers FA started all 16 games at RT.
 
TheRealJoker said:
Remmers started last 2 seasons. The majority of this season as the starting LT when Oher went down. Anybody have info on how well he's played as a starter last 2 seasons?
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Last year: 9 sacks allowed, 49 total QB pressures, 15 penalties.
Not pretty.
 
  • This is from Walter football
  • Andrew Whitworth, OT, Bengals. Age: 35. 4 stars
    Andrew Whitworth would be rated at five stars if it weren't for his age. He's been one of the top left tackles in the NFL for a very long time. However, he just turned 35 and could begin to decline at some point in the near future.
  • Ricky Wagner, OT, Ravens. Age: 27. 3 stars
    Ricky Wagner looked lost when taking over for Michael Oher in the 2013 premiere. He's come a long way since then. The former fifth-round pick played very well at right tackle this past season and should be able to obtain a substantial contract as a result.
  • Riley Reiff, OT, Lions. Age: 28. 2.5 stars
    Riley Reiff was moved to right tackle this season after the Lions spent their 2016 first-round pick on Taylor Decker. Reiff has been a pretty average blocker throughout his career despite being a former first-round selection himself.
  • Ty Nsekhe (RFA), OT, Redskins. Age: 31. 2.5 stars
    I don't know how anyone can be a restricted free agent at 31, but it's a shame that Ty Nsekhe probably won't be able to cash out. Nsekhe took over for a suspended Trent Williams in the middle of the season and handled himself rather well.
  • Sebastian Vollmer, OT, Patriots. Age: 33. 2.5 stars
    Sebastian Vollmer has missed 38 games the past six years, including all of 2016. He's been great when healthy, but that hasn't been very often. He'll also be 33 in July, so his skills are eroding as well.
  • Matt Kalil, OT, Vikings. Age: 28. 2 stars
    Matt Kalil has dealt with numerous injuries over the past few years, and he's regressed as a consequence. He's performed on a replacement level recently. Perhaps Kalil will get healthy, but the Vikings can't trust him anymore.
  • Charles Leno, OT, Bears. Age: 25. 2 stars
    The belief was that Charles Leno was going to be a complete disaster as Chicago's left tackle heading into 2016, but he wasn't too bad. He's a below-average starter, but he's only 25, so perhaps he can continue to improve and evolve into a middling starter.
  • Austin Pasztor, OT, Browns. Age: 26. 2 STARS
    Austin Pasztor replaced the Kansas City-bound Mitchell Schwartz and did an OK job. Pasztor is a serviceable starter who pass protects well. He was a clear downgrade from Schwartz, however.
  • Andre Smith, OT, Vikings. Age: 30. 2 STARS
    Andre Smith used to be a terrific right tackle. It's unclear what happened to him, but perhaps the lethargy concerns teams had with him going into the 2009 NFL Draft can explain it. Smith has been awful the past two seasons, but it's difficult to ignore his talent level. Hopefully someone can motivate him.
  • Mike Remmers, OT, Panthers. Age: 28. 2 STARS
    Mike Remmers has plenty of starting experience, which is his best attribute. Remmers shouldn't be a starter, but he could serve well as a top backup swing tackle.
 
jradMIT said:
  • Sebastian Vollmer, OT, Patriots. Age: 33. 2.5 stars
    Sebastian Vollmer has missed 38 games the past six years, including all of 2016. He's been great when healthy, but that hasn't been very often. He'll also be 33 in July, so his skills are eroding as well.
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Worth a tire kick, at least. Spent five years here in college and played with OB his first three years in NE.
 
ObsiWan said:
Wagner and Kalil are the ones I'd take a closer look at
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Wagner is the pick of the litter, he would make a good addition. Could be part of new young nucleus, he won't be cheap definitely in the 8-11 mil range.



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jradMIT said:
  • This is from Walter football
  • Andrew Whitworth, OT, Bengals. Age: 35. 4 stars
    Andrew Whitworth would be rated at five stars if it weren't for his age. He's been one of the top left tackles in the NFL for a very long time. However, he just turned 35 and could begin to decline at some point in the near future.
  • Ricky Wagner, OT, Ravens. Age: 27. 3 stars
    Ricky Wagner looked lost when taking over for Michael Oher in the 2013 premiere. He's come a long way since then. The former fifth-round pick played very well at right tackle this past season and should be able to obtain a substantial contract as a result.
  • Riley Reiff, OT, Lions. Age: 28. 2.5 stars
    Riley Reiff was moved to right tackle this season after the Lions spent their 2016 first-round pick on Taylor Decker. Reiff has been a pretty average blocker throughout his career despite being a former first-round selection himself.
  • Ty Nsekhe (RFA), OT, Redskins. Age: 31. 2.5 stars
    I don't know how anyone can be a restricted free agent at 31, but it's a shame that Ty Nsekhe probably won't be able to cash out. Nsekhe took over for a suspended Trent Williams in the middle of the season and handled himself rather well.
  • Sebastian Vollmer, OT, Patriots. Age: 33. 2.5 stars
    Sebastian Vollmer has missed 38 games the past six years, including all of 2016. He's been great when healthy, but that hasn't been very often. He'll also be 33 in July, so his skills are eroding as well.
  • Matt Kalil, OT, Vikings. Age: 28. 2 stars
    Matt Kalil has dealt with numerous injuries over the past few years, and he's regressed as a consequence. He's performed on a replacement level recently. Perhaps Kalil will get healthy, but the Vikings can't trust him anymore.
  • Charles Leno, OT, Bears. Age: 25. 2 stars
    The belief was that Charles Leno was going to be a complete disaster as Chicago's left tackle heading into 2016, but he wasn't too bad. He's a below-average starter, but he's only 25, so perhaps he can continue to improve and evolve into a middling starter.
  • Austin Pasztor, OT, Browns. Age: 26. 2 STARS
    Austin Pasztor replaced the Kansas City-bound Mitchell Schwartz and did an OK job. Pasztor is a serviceable starter who pass protects well. He was a clear downgrade from Schwartz, however.
  • Andre Smith, OT, Vikings. Age: 30. 2 STARS
    Andre Smith used to be a terrific right tackle. It's unclear what happened to him, but perhaps the lethargy concerns teams had with him going into the 2009 NFL Draft can explain it. Smith has been awful the past two seasons, but it's difficult to ignore his talent level. Hopefully someone can motivate him.
  • Mike Remmers, OT, Panthers. Age: 28. 2 STARS
    Mike Remmers has plenty of starting experience, which is his best attribute. Remmers shouldn't be a starter, but he could serve well as a top backup swing tackle.
Click to expand...

Wow! Not a very good group of FA OT's. Whitworth and Wagner seem like the only ones worth going after and they will probably have many suitors and be asking for a lot of $$$. Especially Wagner who is in his prime. Maybe Whitworth, because of his age, would be the best one to go after. He may not be able to command as much money as Wagner since he's probably on his last contract and may only want to play a couple more years. He would be good for the Texans because he can play the RT spot while they groom a younger OT they draft this year or next.
 
I would go after one of the good guards in Fa like Decastro or zeitler first. Then try and sign one of the older OTs to cheaper contract. In the draft, draft a good young OT. That and re-signing our key FA would be top priorities this offseason.
 
thunderkyss said:
The way he played, he should consider every year a contract year. If it were up to me, he'd be unemployed as of yesterday.
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Do we know what his injury status was? Did he have injuries that were not disclosed or was he just playing thru pain? The coaching staff would know
 
JB said:
Do we know what his injury status was? Did he have injuries that were not disclosed or was he just playing thru pain? The coaching staff would know
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If he was playing well despite injury I could understand. But that Aboushi was a healthy scratch late in the season I really can't even begin to imagine what they were thinking.
 
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thunderkyss said:
If he was playing well despite injury I could understand. But that Aboushi was a healthy scratch late in the season I really can't even begin to imagine what they were thinking.
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I don't like Devlin. I don't think he's done a good job in any aspect. That's just my opinion, but it's really hard to gauge the Line as a whole because the whole offense was crap
 
JB said:
I don't like Devlin. I don't think he's done a good job in any aspect. That's just my opinion, but it's really hard to gauge the Line as a whole because the whole offense was crap
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Where we ended up with sacks allowed and rushing yards, it's hard to say Devlin did a bad job considering what he thought he'd have compared to what he had.

Watching the games I can definitely see the argument for a change.
 
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thunderkyss said:
Where we ended up with sacks allowed and rushing yards, it's hard to say Devlin did a bad job considering what he thought he'd have compared to what he had.

Watching the games I can definitely see the argument for a change.
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There wasn't a lot of sacks but there was a ton of pressures and hits. The running game was abysmal despite the numbers
 
JB said:
I don't like Devlin. I don't think he's done a good job in any aspect. That's just my opinion, but it's really hard to gauge the Line as a whole because the whole offense was crap
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I don't think Devlin was the problem. I have to agree with TK, I think it was more a lack of talent than coaching and most of that can be attributed to injuries and a lack of depth. Losing Martin and Newton for the season really left them short-handed and if Allen was as banged up as some believe he was, then it only added to the problem. As TK eluded to earlier, I think the coaches did the best they could with what they had. It's nothing that a good FA and a couple draft picks can't fix!
 
Insideop said:
I don't think Devlin was the problem. I have to agree with TK, I think it was more a lack of talent than coaching and most of that can be attributed to injuries and a lack of depth. Losing Martin and Newton for the season really left them short-handed and if Allen was as banged up as some believe he was, then it only added to the problem. As TK eluded to earlier, I think the coaches did the best they could with what they had. It's nothing that a good FA and a couple draft picks can't fix!
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It's not like our opponents don't have their share of injuries. It seems like the Texans caught plenty of breaks this year in that regard, at least enough to offset their own.

The Colts line has been a mess.
The Titans start a rookie, a third year man, 2 UDFAs, and a guy the Texans didn't resign for some reason.

And it doesn't seem to matter what the Patriots have on their line. :kitten:
 
zshawn10 said:
O-line weigh in; Garcia is pretty good but his hands are small for a guy over 6'6"

https://walterfootball.com/seniorbowl2017weighinOL.php
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I've been waiting to look at Asiata and Lamp.

Hope to see more from Garcia.

Lamp doesn't have the long arm and the bulk one looks for at OT, so "they" been wanting to see him at OG.
But his hand size does explain part of his success at OT.

I still think he's a good candidate; he's like Winston with bigger mitts.
Everything you look for in an OT besides arm length and bulk.
 
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