Texian
Hall of Fame
Both losses were quality starters. Initial reports about Brown's injury is that more than 50% do not return from that injury and Newton was a shell of himself last season.
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2016 Offensive Line thread
- Thread starter Texian
- Start date
Both losses were quality starters. Initial reports about Brown's injury is that more than 50% do not return from that injury and Newton was a shell of himself last season.
TexansFight
Veteran
Truth hurts. Like me, Texian is a diehard Texans fan and we want nothing more for these guys to win. They continue to **** up. Don't blame us for pointing it out.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Well said TF, Kool Aid drinkers can't handle it, don't want to hear it. Attention to the OL was piss poor management. OB's focus was squarely on improving offense speed and the OL was neglected as a result.
I agree we have depth issues. I wouldn't say our OL is in shambles just yet. Allen only missed the game last week because of a death in the family. Duane Brown will be coming back, it's just a matter of when.
Mancz... I think he's been doing a fine job this preseason. Nothing special, but adequate.
My only issue with Newton has been against speed rushers. Yes, I've been wanting an upgrade there for some time now, but I never thought it would be easy to replace him, much less upgrade.
I agree with you about Clark. He's not a 16 game starter, but Brown will be back.
Once Brown & Newton gets back, Clark is the swing tackle. I think that's good depth.
XSF is healthy, Allen is healthy, we got Aboushi (who the Texans obviously like) & Berg strum who will also back up Center.
I know you don't see it, but the Texans like Lamm. UDFA & all that, they like him & if they can develope him... great.
I expect to see a competent line against the Cardinals Sunday. If we struggle to protect Osweiler, or create running lanes, then I'll change my stance to shambles.
Texansballer74
The Marine
You guys are not the only ones who want to see this team succeed and win a SuperBowl. You are not the only diehard fans either lol.
Now expressing your displeasure on every freaking thread is insane. It tends to kill the high spirit of that particular thread.
And compadra I'm new here and I already know Ole buddy is still butt hurt about the Kubiak firing. Bwhahaha get over it already. That regime is ancient history now. So let's try to enjoy the new regime.
banned1976
sleeper mode
The Texans took XSF in the 2nd in 2014 and Martin in the 2nd of 2016. I think they should have drafted La'el Collins in the 2nd in 2015. Other than that, I don't think they've made a misstep on the OL since O'Brien got here. Can't fault them on Filo and Martin at this time. I do think they'll be long term starters here...just wish we had Collins.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Not butt hurt, actually thought he should have been fired after Frank Bush fiasco. I did say that McNair fired Kubiak in a fit of rage for pulling Keenum and that was the wrong reason to fire Kubiak. Could've fired him for losing control of the players. McNair had a QB problem or didn't you see Schaub self destruct before your very eyes so McNair's answer was to fire the coach. Not real logical and doesn't make a lot of sense for the reasons McNair did it.
I dont have a problem with the focus on speed in the draft. IF they would've spent some of the 10 mil that is left on the cap to address the OL. 1 quality vet could've made a huge difference. Jerod Bushrod or Okung for instance.
Texian
Hall of Fame
For all practical purposes they really only have $5MM available, the other $5MM will be used for IR, Practice Squad and LTBE bonuses.
Brandon420tx
Flounder
He's making a claim that the Texans paid low value for the current projected starting Oline, which is clearly the 2nd string Oline because of injury to the starters. What is shocking is that he seems to be ignoring that they are being paid like, what do you know? 2nd String players. It's just a horrible argument when there are much better ones for how crappy we all knew the Oline would probably be this season. I actually expect much better from Texian.
(not you though, TF)
(not you though, TF)
Texansballer74
The Marine
That was the last straw though. You can't completely ignore your boss like that. Matt was mentally gone so there was no need to ever put him back out there. Plus he was going to get fired at the end of the season anyways.
Brandon420tx
Flounder
I'm just trying to think of any team in history that had 9+ starting caliber Offensive Lineman and paid them all like starters. Which is what he is suggesting by the "You get what you pay for" comment
Texansballer74
The Marine
They invested in Allen and Bergstrom. And before you talk down Bergstrom, Dude had a solid season last year in replace of the Raiders starting center.
Understood, but if they would've not signed Bergstrom and used that $$$$ plus the 5 mil they would've had the $$$$ to sign one of the type of guys I'm talking about. It's all about having the will and allotting the $$$$ the resources to protect their investment on Os. You would think McNair would've learned his lesson after the Carr debacle.
Looks like the same old same old. Good news is that Os performed pretty well behind a crappy Denver OL last yr, so it may not matter.
gs27
Veteran
I was also big fan of Jack Allen and shocked he went undrafted. Word is despite playing well for the Saints he may still get cut because he only plays center. Could still end up with him. I think he is a long term starter once he gets his shot.
And they still had $$$$ to spend to upgrade the OL and chose to put the $$$$$ in the bank instead. You're much higher on Bergstrom than I am. The Raiders drafted two OL and signed another in FA and let Bergstrom walk.
Texian
Hall of Fame
When you look at what Belichick has done this year to plug his holes it's night and day with how O'Brien/Smith have managed their roster. Geez I think Belichick has signed 4 1st rounders to replace his lost/injured players.
BOB doesn't have the power to make those type moves. McNair/Rick aren't risk takers like Belichick is, so this is really an apple/orange type of comparison. Of course if you want to make the case that the Texans will never win anything unless they start operating like Belichick that is a valid argument.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
So we let Demeco, Babin, Robinson, williams, OD walk. Teams do that thinking they can get the same value at a cheaper price.
Agreed, but if Bergstrom was all of that the Raiders wouldn't have added 3 OL. Bergstrom was avg at best last yr and has contiued to be so during this TC. Losing Martin hasn't and wont change that.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Same could be said about the Texans and Ben Jones. The Raiders wasn't going to pay him what he wanted just like we wasn't going to pay Jones.
Except Bergstrom wasn't even as good as Jones last yr as his contract reflects.
They also signed Kendall Lamm as an UDFA in 2015. & Bergstrum & Allen in 2016 FA.
Can't please everyone I guess.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
I actually don't think it's a poor argument by Texian. You've got Brown as an unknown basically. We all hope he comes back and can play at his previous level, but not only is he coming off serious injury, he's turning 31 next week. XSF has shown very little positive progress. Newton has been downright bad.
I won't harp on center because while they didn't invest $$$, they invested a high pick at the position, which should yield somewhat similar results. Bad luck there, but it was also a risky situation to put the team in (counting on a rookie to start from game 1 with little talent behind him).
It's not like Brown just got injured or Newton just started getting smoked in pass pro. They had time to develop a plan to better secure the O line and they went another direction.
I hope it works out with these backups; Lamm looks worse than Newton in pass pro and that's really saying something.
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Or their evaluation of their players are much different than everyone else's. I've read nothing but good things about Mancz since camp started. Maybe the competition pushed a button. While I did see communication issues, the job doesn't look too big for him in our previous preseason games.
I think X has been progressing very well & said as much at the end of last season.
1st, 2nd, 2nd, FA, Newton
Are we complaining we didn't spend a 2nd or 1st on our swing tackle?
I think a lot of Newton's bad play has been due to nagging injuries the last few years. Having said that I do think it's time to draft some new tackles. They can't keep going like they are now relying on aging/oft hurt tackles that are past their prime. They absolutely must draft at least 1 OT early in this next draft (better 2 OT's) or they run a risk of injuring their new QB and negating all that speed they acquired in the off season. They'll end up in the same boat like the Colts and their offense last season.
As for Lamm, an undrafted FA rookie last year, I don't expect him to be perfect but I think he is progressing and holding his own. Is he the answer at RT? No! But he's all they have right now. It's going to be an interesting first half of the season to say the least! I just hope Brown and Newton come back soon!
The man has 4 NFL starts. I'll grant that PFF had him in their top 1/3 of FA Guards this offseason, that rating is a projection more than an actual evaluation.
DeMeco - Didn't fit the scheme anymore, and they weren't going to pay him the same $$ to learn a new position. Irks me, but it's logical.
Babin - Failed miserably here and at his next stop. Didn't get it figured out until his 3rd team. Texans reached and failed with him.
Robinson - Underperformed and then picked a fight with the GM. He has far underplayed his contract in ATL.
Williams - Zero chance we were going to pay that much for a guy that dominates only when he wants to.
OD - Coming off of injury. Was crapshoot whether he'd play at a high level again. Hated to lose him.
For the most part, we did replace those folks for better value. We just never found another OD again.
Letting Ben Jones go was my biggest fear this off-season. Bergstrom still hasn't earned the big payday. Jones got overpaid some, but it was less of a crapshoot.
Not quite the same situation. Back then, we kept praying for a Boselli return and Carr had zero protection to start his NFL career. Osweiler, for all his limited starting experience, knows what an NFL line should look like and isn't going to go fetal on the first big rush.
The Texans' cuts have by-and-large made sense. I'd venture that the vast majority never worked out at their next stop.
The Texans' drafting of high-upside /high-risk folks in the first round on occasion has killed the team at times. (Babin, T Johnson, Okoye)
The Texans' FA pickups have been very hit-or-miss, especially the safeties.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Understood, probably in much the same way I expect much better from the Texans.
"When you look at what Belichick has done this year to plug his holes it's night and day with how O'Brien/Smith have managed their roster. Geez I think Belichick has signed 4 1st rounders to replace his lost/injured players."
banned1976
sleeper mode
I honestly have more issues with a healthy Newton and XSF than I do with an injured Martin and Brown. I don't think either can pass protect well enough to keep a QB upright long enough to find an open receiver, unless it's a hot read quick route. Sua Filo is not looking like a 1st pick of the 2nd round. Very underwhelming at this point.
TexansFight
Veteran
Bergstrom has gotten destroyed this preseason. It's been embarrassing how bad he had gotten whipped at the LOS. Bergstrom is this year's version of Rahim Moore, a complete and utter waste of money and major league bust of a FA. Typical Rick Smith.
TexansFight
Veteran
This is what happens when you let McNair and Rick Smith run your team. Constant failure and depression
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
The Oline was going to be pretty bad before this happened. Weakest part of the team. Prepare for it fellas.
I haven't seen that. Granted, I haven't focused very much on him. The line seemed to be playing well to me... well enough to protect a QB anyway. I'd like to see better run blocking.
Game one, they did fine, but everything went outside. Game two we tried running up the middle. Didn't really work out too well.
But pass protection, I didn't see our guys getting outplayed too much. Most of the problem was, imo, wrong assignments & communication type issues.
Porky
Hall of Fame
XSF and Nick Martin - both 2nd round picks in the last two drafts. ***** all you want, but when you ignore facts to suit your bitchfest, it gets annoying. Just sayin...
Texian
Hall of Fame
With Brown's type of injury less than 50% return to play, it's worse for heavy set linemen. Newton's play dropped considerably last year. And they lost 2 starters to free agency. The lone bright spot here is signing Jeff Allen. So far XSF has been a disappointment and Martin is not on the field.....I really don't see this as a bitchfest, more of a statement of the way things actually are.
Porky
Hall of Fame
Understood, but name me a team that doesn't have a weakness on it's team. Denver's o-line was atrocious last year and they won the SB. In the salary cap era, I'd say this team has more talent than most all in all.
I bet there are fans of at least 2 dozen other teams that look at our secondary and think man, that Texans team is talented and stacked and look what we have back there. All you have to do is drive about 4 hours up I-45 to hear that. The Cowboys entire defense sucks.
If you're looking for the perfect team with rock solid backups up and down the roster, I'd suggest a Madden fantasy team.
Texian
Hall of Fame
I'm here to discuss not argue and I prefer to discuss the Texans OL. The other 31 teams we can discuss in the NFL section.
badboy
Hall of Fame
and you always go for the death knell; I just gave scenario as I see it. I have seen nothing yet to say Os will be a disaster but he does not have to be Johnny Unitas, just don't turn ball over and do what he can. He has targets now and we will see. You know me well enough that I am not a koolaide drinker and call it as I see it. Always have been willing to say "whoops" when I get it wrong. Our depth is basically Lamm, Aboushi, Manz and Clark with three of them starting so it looks like a negative now but no one knows how it resolves itself. I have noted that I wanted an OT last draft and looking for two in 2017 regardless of how Brown and Newton return. We may need a center also but could go FA for that. If I were O'Brien, I would have QBs address every snap as if being blitzed; get rid of rock fast.
OK, I saw this article about Mancz in chron.com a short time ago and thought about making it's own thread but decided it probably fits in here. http://www.chron.com/sports/texans/article/Texans-center-Greg-Mancz-I-need-to-improve-9186593.php
A couple of things from the article, nothing earthshaking, that kind of illustrate where the Texans O-line is at this time.
1) "Obviously, Nick is out," Texans coach Bill O'Brien said. "Greg is in there." It's not Mancz's job to lose because they have no one else to take his spot except Bergstrom! And that leads to #2...
2) Mancz is regarded as a scrappy lineman who has clearly outplayed former Oakland Raiders lineman Tony Bergstrom. However, Mancz was dominated by Saints defensive lineman Nick Fairley during one play where he busted through him to sack quarterback Brock Osweiler. Mancz is still going to need some work! No surprise there since he was an UDFA last season and was on IR all of it. So this is basically his Rookie year. I guess the bright spot in this is that Mancz may develop into a pretty decent Center and next season they might have 2 good ones on the team.
A couple of things from the article, nothing earthshaking, that kind of illustrate where the Texans O-line is at this time.
1) "Obviously, Nick is out," Texans coach Bill O'Brien said. "Greg is in there." It's not Mancz's job to lose because they have no one else to take his spot except Bergstrom! And that leads to #2...
2) Mancz is regarded as a scrappy lineman who has clearly outplayed former Oakland Raiders lineman Tony Bergstrom. However, Mancz was dominated by Saints defensive lineman Nick Fairley during one play where he busted through him to sack quarterback Brock Osweiler. Mancz is still going to need some work! No surprise there since he was an UDFA last season and was on IR all of it. So this is basically his Rookie year. I guess the bright spot in this is that Mancz may develop into a pretty decent Center and next season they might have 2 good ones on the team.
badboy
Hall of Fame
yep but for some reason, Smith and O'Brien believed they had enough to be successful; indicating that team would be ok until DB returns. They got Adams who some here thought could do well. IIRC, we are sitting on $5-6 million under cap ($11 m total) that could sign vet or two..if available. Also if it plays out right, guys you mentioned will be backups to the starters we now have who will be backups to D Brown and Newton. I am still in wait and see mode..for now.This is the real question, who are the backups to the backups? Aboushi is probably the only one with real game experience. The rest are a mixed bag (Chad Slade, Karim Barton, Arturo Uzdavinis, Andrew McDonald, and Jeff Adams)! Maybe there's some real gems in there!
Texansballer74
The Marine
Yeah I know and I'm like damn we need him to pan out. Hopefully he gets his skit together before the season starts. Our depth is pretty shacks right now so come on big fella, get it together.
My guess is that they pick someone up after those 1st cuts start coming out. They should be looking for a Center for sure but, depending on when Brown and Newton are coming back, don't be surprised if they pick up an OT also. The question will be is whether or not the linemen they do pick up are any good or not and how long will it take for them to get in sync with the rest of the line! I think Rick picked up Clark and Aboushi off the camp cuts a couple of years ago, or maybe it was last year. But, I'm not positive. My senior memory may be failing me on this!
I posted my take on this in another thread:
I didn't remember thinking Mancz was manhandled on that play, so... I just watched it again & my memory was right. XSF got beat by Farley. Mancz & Bregstrum doubled the NT. Farley lined up as the 3 tech on the strong side. XSF initially has him blocked, but Farley's hands are so quick & strong, a swim move to the inside & Mancz is standing in front of a freight train. Only so much you could do at that point.
I posted my take on this in another thread:
I didn't remember thinking Mancz was manhandled on that play, so... I just watched it again & my memory was right. XSF got beat by Farley. Mancz & Bregstrum doubled the NT. Farley lined up as the 3 tech on the strong side. XSF initially has him blocked, but Farley's hands are so quick & strong, a swim move to the inside & Mancz is standing in front of a freight train. Only so much you could do at that point.
That shot looks like he's turning to face Fairley head on. Did Fairley blow by Mancz or did he run over him? I can't remember.
Farley proceeds straight ahead. Mancz tries to engage him, but Farley is practically past him aleeady. At no time is Mancz ever squared off in front of Farley. He never had a chance to prevent Farley from getting to Osweiler.
Mancz didn't get run over, it was more like Farley ran around him.