TD
Super Bowl Mascot
Abuse is a tricky subject. IMO, the parents below abuse their children worse than AP did, but far from indicted, many folks cheer them on.
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Adrian Peterson has been indicted
- Thread starter toronto
- Start date
Abuse is a tricky subject. IMO, the parents below abuse their children worse than AP did, but far from indicted, many folks cheer them on.
Three questions to get you thinking:
#1: If AP had administered this exact treatment to his son even if (in AP's judgement mind you) the child had done nothing wrong, with the same injuries resulting, would you consider that child abuse? I mean, let's say this was AP's way of telling his 4-year old son, "Happy Birthday!" My point here is that children will do right and children will do wrong. Is this how they should be held accountable for all of those cases of right and wrong?
#2: What if AP had delivered these injuries by some means other than deliberate "whoopin'" with a switch. What if AP had rendered the child immobile and applied the exact same level of injury using some other implement - a monkey wrench, a knotted rope, a dull cheese grater, heck, a pillow? In other words, rendered the exact same (no greater) level of injury, but not in the name of "whoopin" but instead with the specific design of causing this exact level of injury? Is that child abuse?
#3: If an unrelated, teenage baby sitter provided the whoopin', in AP's absence, but otherwise with AP's approval. Child abuse?
If the one is child abuse, the other is too. AP's deliberate actions caused this level of injury to the 4-year old child. It wasn't accidental. He may have gone further than he intended or than he thought would result. That doesn't matter. He's the adult in charge of protecting the child from the very injury he was doling out.
#1: If AP had administered this exact treatment to his son even if (in AP's judgement mind you) the child had done nothing wrong, with the same injuries resulting, would you consider that child abuse? I mean, let's say this was AP's way of telling his 4-year old son, "Happy Birthday!" My point here is that children will do right and children will do wrong. Is this how they should be held accountable for all of those cases of right and wrong?
#2: What if AP had delivered these injuries by some means other than deliberate "whoopin'" with a switch. What if AP had rendered the child immobile and applied the exact same level of injury using some other implement - a monkey wrench, a knotted rope, a dull cheese grater, heck, a pillow? In other words, rendered the exact same (no greater) level of injury, but not in the name of "whoopin" but instead with the specific design of causing this exact level of injury? Is that child abuse?
#3: If an unrelated, teenage baby sitter provided the whoopin', in AP's absence, but otherwise with AP's approval. Child abuse?
If the one is child abuse, the other is too. AP's deliberate actions caused this level of injury to the 4-year old child. It wasn't accidental. He may have gone further than he intended or than he thought would result. That doesn't matter. He's the adult in charge of protecting the child from the very injury he was doling out.
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toronto
Hall of Fame
Agreed. And listening to Rick Spielman now just angered the hell out of me. Hilarious how AP gets back onto the field while lesser players like Jefferson and Cook don't. Guess it depends who it is for that team.
I could not disagree with you more. I'd take that public humiliation every day over the beatings my dad used to give me. I'd have to miss school for my wounds to heal. He is lucky that he did it in a time when children did not have advocates, and standards for abuse were basically non-existent.
Fear is not a form of respect. And parents that beat their kids seem to confuse the two perspectives.
mattieuk
All Pro
Haven't really weighed into this one yet, as I'm struggling to express what I think about the whole situation (which obviously goes way past just the AP issue).
I am glad that he is being reinstated, and that action is going to be taken after the court of law have made their assessments (which is the proper way for these things to get taken care of in my opinion).
I don't feel that any sort of corporal punishment for a child is a suitable punishment tool, and for that reason I'm in a quandary with trying to disapproving this AP incident more than a regular spanking that leaves a red mark/welt on a child.
Especially at a younger age, children create life long associations - and in this case an association doing something bad with a physical punishment being extracted by the authority figure in that situation (be it a parent, policeman or courtroom) - which has an increased likelihood of repetition of that behavior.
I definitely don't expect everyone to agree with my views on parenting (heck no one exactly meets eye to eye on this topic) - so I don't really feel the level of outrage that many others do. Parenting styles differ hugely and upbringing and personality change people's perceptions on things like this. Regardless of it being a mild punishment like spanking, to a more moderate one which obviously got a bit out of hand from AP - I just don't see a huge difference (other than a small amount of blood being drawn to the surface in the AP case).
Either way - a poorly thought out attempt to prevent his child from repeating an undesirable behaviour, absolutely. Obvious child abuse, not in my opinion.
I am glad that he is being reinstated, and that action is going to be taken after the court of law have made their assessments (which is the proper way for these things to get taken care of in my opinion).
I don't feel that any sort of corporal punishment for a child is a suitable punishment tool, and for that reason I'm in a quandary with trying to disapproving this AP incident more than a regular spanking that leaves a red mark/welt on a child.
Especially at a younger age, children create life long associations - and in this case an association doing something bad with a physical punishment being extracted by the authority figure in that situation (be it a parent, policeman or courtroom) - which has an increased likelihood of repetition of that behavior.
I definitely don't expect everyone to agree with my views on parenting (heck no one exactly meets eye to eye on this topic) - so I don't really feel the level of outrage that many others do. Parenting styles differ hugely and upbringing and personality change people's perceptions on things like this. Regardless of it being a mild punishment like spanking, to a more moderate one which obviously got a bit out of hand from AP - I just don't see a huge difference (other than a small amount of blood being drawn to the surface in the AP case).
Either way - a poorly thought out attempt to prevent his child from repeating an undesirable behaviour, absolutely. Obvious child abuse, not in my opinion.
TD
Super Bowl Mascot
I understand what you're saying, but will counter that as someone subjected to both they are both bad. These kids will likely NEVER trust anyone again....at least the physical marks will heal.
Fear is to prevent a recurrence of bad behavior. Not sure respect plays a role. Although MANY adults like Peterson credit "whoopins" with keeping them straight when so many of their peers failed and ultimately do respect their parents for it. It beats the hell out of indifference.
Abuse is a tricky subject. IMO, the parents below abuse their children worse than AP did, but far from indicted, many folks cheer them on.
The first (and last) time I ever stole something my parents found out and treated me like a prisoner for two weeks. My father stood over me with a unloaded shotgun while I ate and they made me go through the motions of daily life in a prison. Like I said, I only did it once. This was worse than any whipping I ever got as a kid, and we had a weeping willow in the back yard. I love and respect my parents everyday because they thought outside the box and punished me in a way that has stuck with me to this day. These aren't violations of trust, these pictures. Violation of trust is when one of the two people who are supposed to always protect you are the ones who beat you raw. Pop on the butt is one thing, but scrotum, back, legs, hands, that's insanity. Sounds like he popped a gasket and lost every shred of control.
Scooter
Funky
i'm in absolute disagreement, i'd take the pops every singe time. shame and humiliation is much more traumatic than a tanned rear. those kids now have their faces on the internet to be mocked and ridiculed. of the two options fear is a more productive tool. those kids were both stealing, jail is the fear that should be instilled.
I'm not talking pops. I'm talking BEATINGS, like the one Peterson gave his kid.
Btw, shame and humiliation is what convicted felons feel in society when they leave prison. Unable to vote, very hard to find a job, having to put down that they are convicted felons on just about every application for everything in society.
Last I checked, they do not receive state sanctioned beatings in the U.S.
Your logic is all kind of fail as it pertains to beating vs. humiliation as a deterrent or preparation for adult life.
I can tell you about being beat. It produces LOTS of negative things in a child, including hatred, anger, depression, addiction issues, and inabiltity to trust.
Don't come to me with your horseshit about being beat as a kid makes you a better person. I have both anecdotal evidence and cold hard scientific studies to back up my position. If you are a good person and was beat as a kid, you are a better person IN SPITE of the beatings.
Do you care to research how many prisoners in this country were beaten as kids? Why didn't it work for THEM??!
I have absolutely no respect for anyone that is unable to discipline their child without beating them. (Again, not pops on the butt, BUT BEATING THEM. There is a HUGE difference.)
TD
Super Bowl Mascot
Unless he did it on a public street corner, I don't see the comparison. What he did sounds pretty good. Hopefully you had to go to whomever you stole from and make restitution as well. That kind of embarrassment is good for you.
Problem is the literal multitudes of kids who are spanked like this and grow up to actually say they are grateful for it. Trust is violated when family business is deliberately made public. I wonder how those parents would feel to stand there with their sign..."I love internet porn"; "I cheated on my spouse"; etc... etc... How can those kids EVER come to their parents with a problem again knowing they have no sense of confidentiality? I'll save you the trouble....they can't and won't.
TD
Super Bowl Mascot
Ahhhh....Dan B with irrelevant pointless crap. Too much like NSZ..I am out of here.
Dan B.
Hall of Fame
I am not opposed to corporal punishment. I think four years old is too young, and I think Peterson went too far. We all have a line. I doubt that you (or really anyone at all) woujld be ok with it if Adrian had punished his infant son like that. How young is too young? How far is too far?
For clarification, I was talking beatings when you were probably talking spankings.
I see a big difference in these two forms of punishment, as I hope you do, as well.
btw, I would never publicly humiliate my kids that way, and I see what you're saying about it.
My disappointment is enough to make them feel like they really effed up, but fortunately, I've got good kids that way. They respect me enough to not want to disappoint me. Not sure what I'd do if I had a kid that was born criminal.
toronto
Hall of Fame
I have only one question at this point.
What crime could ANY 4 year old commit to warrant this level of abuse? Now, or 30 years ago?
I know this is generational - I was given the belt and had to stick out my hand and got rapped with a wooden spoon so frigging hard I have never forgotten it.
But this? This is/was acceptable? Seriously?
What crime could ANY 4 year old commit to warrant this level of abuse? Now, or 30 years ago?
I know this is generational - I was given the belt and had to stick out my hand and got rapped with a wooden spoon so frigging hard I have never forgotten it.
But this? This is/was acceptable? Seriously?
Scooter
Funky
i was talking more in line with spanking and general whooping. spanking - be it hand, switch or spoon i've got no problem with when administered properly. that being without anger or malice and as a learning experience. the phrase 'this is going to hurt me more than it will you' should always apply. this i believe (hope) was adrian's intent but for one reason or another that he himself must now accept discipline for, got out of hand and and became a 'beating'.
beating the crap out of a kid isnt acceptable in any way shape or form.
TD
Super Bowl Mascot
That's where I am not sure. There is no magic line between spanking and beating. And when you hear people talking you don't really know what they went through when they say they are "grateful for the whoopins" or feel they were abused. Could be the exact same thing.
With my first son, I started out wailing on his butt. As he got older and I had my 2nd...it became a deliberate number of spanks (3 - 10) depending on the offense. By the 3rd, I realized there really wasn't any difference. Civilized beating is still just a beating. They could all be considered discipline just like they could all be considered abuse. I decided they were ALL the former, but I am not going to apply my standard to everyone when their intent is good.
btw, I would never publicly humiliate my kids that way, and I see what you're saying about it.
My disappointment is enough to make them feel like they really effed up, but fortunately, I've got good kids that way. They respect me enough to not want to disappoint me. Not sure what I'd do if I had a kid that was born criminal.
You learned something much earlier than me....Be the man worthy of your child's respect and you don't have to do much else.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Now and then pushing your sister off a mechanical horse is a pretty big offense in my book. Clearly nothing deserves what he apparently meted, but I definitely can see a spanking over it.
Great get a bunch of women and form a council on DV. That's God'ell covering hia a** in God'ell's newly formed no violent hitting NFL on the field and no need for due process off the field.
I don't think much of AP's parenting skills but I am glad the Vikings aren't going to bow to the pressure of the PC crowd.
Do you really believe that a 4 year old has enough cognitive ability to fully comprehend the lesson you are supposedly teaching them? And enough impulse control to have that lesson dissuade them from committing the act in the future? There's a reason adults are treated differently than children in the legal system. They aren't developed enough to have a true understanding of the consequences their actions may cause. You can find plenty of literature discussing the development of a child's mind. I imagine you'd be hard pressed to finding support for a serious "whooping" at 4 because of the limitations of its efficacy.
I know many will tell me otherwise with personal anecdotes but science is science
Do we even know what "the PC crowd" refers to anymore or is it just a catch all for "anyone who has a view I don't agree with"?
If taking a stance against beating a 4 year old makes me a member of the PC crowd, then I'll wear the label proudly.
silvrhand
All Pro
This thread is the whole reasons why spanking and discipline should be left up to the parents until at some point some line is crossed. It's hard to define what the line should be as some parents have no discipline and some parents are too hard on their children.
Some kids react to spankings, some kids don't.
Some kids have no idea of respect, and sometimes will respond to fear till they learn better, and sometimes they still don't learn.
Some kids you can stand in a corner and break their heart, which is worse their heart of their butt?
Some kids are just a lost cause, and no matter what you try things go bad and never recover. There are people that just want to watch the world burn and there is really nothing you can do with them.
To each their own and to each is left to hopefully make the right decisions for their children, it is not my place to tell you if you are right or wrong. I might feel standing the child on a street corner with a sign is a worse than a spanking. But I would never judge the parent as I have no idea what the child has done, some will say no matter what they do they shouldn't have punishment.
Some kids react to spankings, some kids don't.
Some kids have no idea of respect, and sometimes will respond to fear till they learn better, and sometimes they still don't learn.
Some kids you can stand in a corner and break their heart, which is worse their heart of their butt?
Some kids are just a lost cause, and no matter what you try things go bad and never recover. There are people that just want to watch the world burn and there is really nothing you can do with them.
To each their own and to each is left to hopefully make the right decisions for their children, it is not my place to tell you if you are right or wrong. I might feel standing the child on a street corner with a sign is a worse than a spanking. But I would never judge the parent as I have no idea what the child has done, some will say no matter what they do they shouldn't have punishment.
toronto
Hall of Fame
You have a 2nd....
My disappointment is enough to make them feel like they really effed up, but fortunately, I've got good kids that way. They respect me enough to not want to disappoint me. Not sure what I'd do if I had a kid that was born criminal.
msr. I've always respected your parenting philosophies
toronto
Hall of Fame
This was inevitable. First of many. No one will want to be associated with this.
Radisson has suspended its sponsorship of the team.
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/radisson-suspends-minnesota-vikings-sponsorship-25525900
Radisson has suspended its sponsorship of the team.
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/radisson-suspends-minnesota-vikings-sponsorship-25525900
kingtexan
All Pro
So, you hit an adult who may or may not have been doing something to provoke you ... not justifying the hit, but who knows what was said or done before the elevator. That gets you a lifetime ban. Abuse multiple four year old defenseless children ... and you get to play on Sunday. Sad sad world that we live in. Disgusting.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Some here seem to be confused with some of their arguments defensive of Peterson. Each state has its own definition of CHILD ABUSE. This is the definition in Texas.:
silvrhand
All Pro
He has a right to trial by jury, and after sitting in two jury's the last few years convicting him of child abuse will be tough, as it has to be beyond a reasonable doubt, and the interpretation of child abuse is so varied among many.
Scooter
Funky
going a bit over the top here. there's no lifetime ban and the indefinite suspension is likely to be overturned. peterson was inactivated sunday because of the arrest and we can only wait to see what the discipline will be.
kingtexan
All Pro
Over the top? Please remind me what the NFL has done to Peterson ...
Oh, that's right ... not a damn thing. Nothing.
Superstars apparently can abuse their children all they want.
Scooter
Funky
yeah, over the top. the indictment happened 3-4 days ago, and in that time he was pulled from the game by the vikings. the NFL hasnt done anything yet because it would be stupid to do so. due process has to run it's course while the NFL performs it's own investigations. where did you immigrate from that an arrest is receiving a max sentence in under 4 days?
peterson's going to get his punishment when the facts are in and the legal process of both NFL/NFLPA as well as his potential felony proceedings have run their course.
your 'act like a man and get hit like a man' friend got his first sentence after the DA had dropped the case and the NFL/NFLPA had each done their spectacularly failing investigations.
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kingtexan
All Pro
Peterson wont get anything. Why? Because in this country it is illegal to hit another man, another woman, or your dog ... but do what you want to the kids.
As far as due process, what about Ray Rice? What was he convicted of again that made him get kicked out of the league? Due process ... what a joke.
Scooter
Funky
ray rice received no legal punishment. peterson is up for a felony. am i being trolled?
ray rice received NFL punishment for video tape of domestic violence and admitting to performing the act of domestic violence - rule at least being 'detrimental conduct' since there was no in place punishment for that situation. his minor sentence was also because of his omitting and/or falsifying the lead up to the particular act along with a failure among police, team and NFL. he hasnt been kicked out of the league so quit making **** up.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
I would say it's generally a weak/feminine viewpoint. You know live and let die type.
kingtexan
All Pro
Why did you edit
Was that a racist comment? Actually I have blue eyes if that helps you fantasize ...
You just made my point for me. No legal punishment gets you kicked out. Felony against a child and you play on Sunday. Thanks for finally seeing things clearly.
Scooter
Funky
i edited because it was unnecessary. brown eyes meaning you're full of ****.
the rest is just nonsense. your age cant possibly be correct, i've got your line of thinking closer to being about 19, the above being another indicator. complete ignorance. you must be trolling.
i'm out of this one though. you're right. rice got a lifetime ban. peterson played sunday. chicks that step up can be treated like men. and adrian wont see any repercussions. you nailed it, another random on ignore ... yay.
kingtexan
All Pro
Anything other than personal attacks and stupidity to add, or are you done?
Nothing you have said has any basis in rational thinking. I find it humorous when people who aren't intelligent enough to debate an issue go to the troll card ... multiple times. Its kind of like the kid in school who is too retarded to have anything to say back to someone, so they just punch them.
Have a great day there ... Scooter.
AP was convicted by the court of public opinion before the judicial system got a chance to play out. I personally believe in a presumption of innocence before judging him as guilty. But that's just me,
DA is going to have a hard time winning this case, especially against Rusty Hardin.
DA is going to have a hard time winning this case, especially against Rusty Hardin.
silvrhand
All Pro
That's my whole beef with some of these things, is that you get a picture posted on the internet and your life gets trolled by everyone. You and your wife have a fight, both react badly, yet neither press charges against each other and you get suspended indefinitely.
We all have a right to due process, but in the age of the internet slander and prosecution in the court of public opinion is all you need.
Well, there is an easy solution for all of that: don't beat your wife and/or abuse your children.
You don't see JJ Watt on the TMZ website. Just sayin'....
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
All it will take it one minor incident where it can happen though, and Watt's name could be dragged around for months as a POS. People make mistakes. What Rice did was horrible, but the outrage for it now is silly when this happened months ago and everyone ignored it.
I don't see NFL fans and sports fans crying about Mike Tyson being all over tv and in movies and reality shows everywhere. Where is the outrage there? Mike Tyson raped a woman, beat the snot out of his ex wife, and sexually assaulted Teddy Atlas's niece when he was younger. Oh, and he also bit a man's ear half off in the middle of a fight. Yet, beyond all of that he is still one of the most polarizing and popular figures in sports history and people love the guy. I'm sorry, but I'm sick of the "selective outrage" in AMerica with sports figures. Jim Brown is another guy that gets paraded around the NFL locker rooms as a mentor for god ****ing sakes! This guy has a record a mile long of beating his ex wives and GF's, and we're supposed to continually make Ray Rice public enemy #1 for his incident that took place like 7 months ago when he was already reprimanded by the league??
Sorry, but sports fans and the public comes off like total frauds to me with their selective outrage on certain public figures where so many others get a pass.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You're way premature on your outraged allegation of hypocrisy.
silvrhand
All Pro
This is where it gets a little different for me...
Let's be clear here, they both attacked each other it wasn't like he walked up to her and just knocked her out. Now would I do that with my wife, no that doesn't work in our life and our relationship, but that's my life and my relationship. I generally don't agree with how that situation went down and I don't know what happened leading up to it.
There are plenty of forms of abuse depending on who you talk to, and each relationship between two consenting adults is exactly that, between those two. Maybe they fight, maybe they get married, and have a great life, that's not up to me to judge how they deal with their disagreements.
There are plenty of avenues for people that need help in an abusive relationship in this day and time, and if you want help you can find help.
kingtexan
All Pro
I don't think so.
Do you not agree that if the video had never come out, Rice would still be in the NFL?
So, a video making them look bad for not taking a harsher stance is the end for Rice, but pictures showing child abuse doesn't effect Peterson's status?
I feel my allegation of hypocrisy is not only warranted, but proven.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
So what on the video?
And yes you are premature because the NFL hasn't had time to do any investigation at all. Let's wait until the NFL actually acts on Peterson, then we can judge hypocrisy. They took months to act on Rice so right now they are on the same track, not divergent. The NFL did nothing to Rice in the first week or even month.
Or, he could be a stand up human being and never get his name out there for this kind of behavior. It happens. There are plenty of men out there who are decent people and never have to worry about TMZ stories associated with their names.
Total non-sequitur and truly appears like you wanted a chance to rant about everyone else ranting.
Frauds, give me a break. Are you saying everyone here is a fraud? What a broad brush you like to paint with, man. It's hard to take you with a serious attitude when you generalize everyone and put yourself on your shiny little pedestal. If only we could all be as awesome as you, I guess.