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All Encompassing Andre Johnson Thread (Just got some disturbing news about A Johnson)

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I hear mini camps a comin'
It's rolling round the bend I ain't caught a football since I don't know when,
I'm stuck in Texan's prison, and time keeps draggin' on
But those OTAs keep a rollin' on down by the dome ..
When I was just a baby my mama told me. Son,
Always be a good boy, you'll never use the shotgun .
But I beat a man in Reliant just to watch him bleed
When I hear that whistle blowing , 12 wins is what I need

I bet there's winning players eating in a fancy dining car
They're probably drinkin' Cognac and smoking big reefer cigars.
Well I know I had it coming, I know I can't be free
But those players keep a winning
And that's what tortures me...

Well if they freed me from this prison,
If that QB pick was mine
I bet I'd move it on a little farther down the line
Far from this Texan's prison, that's where I want to stay
And I'd let that referee's whistle blow my deep steel blues away..... :texanbill:
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
I hear mini camps a comin'
It's rolling round the bend I ain't caught a football since I don't know when,
I'm stuck in Texan's prison, and time keeps draggin' on
But those OTAs keep a rollin' on down by the dome ..
When I was just a baby my mama told me. Son,
Always be a good boy, you'll never use the shotgun .
But I beat a man in Reliant just to watch him bleed
When I hear that whistle blowing , 12 wins is what I need

I bet there's winning players eating in a fancy dining car
They're probably drinkin' Cognac and smoking big reefer cigars.
Well I know I had it coming, I know I can't be free
But those players keep a winning
And that's what tortures me...

Well if they freed me from this prison,
If that QB pick was mine
I bet I'd move it on a little farther down the line
Far from this Texan's prison, that's where I want to stay
And I'd let that referee's whistle blow my deep steel blues away..... :texanbill:
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Man that is pretty catchy. Sort of reminds me of a song by Joaquin Phoenix..
 
Nitrofish said:
He is a quitter, and I never asserted he displayed the character flaw before. You are making that up. It's not about what I asserted, it's about what AJ asserted when he signed that contract.

AJ gave his word when he signed his contract. I am sure if you read it, it lays out that he is expected to show up to OTA's and camp..
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So, you're going to just continue and make **** up? That's about it, right?

YOU think he's a quitter, and YOU think signing a contract means that only one side gets to assert their options under that contract?

:kubepalm:
 
cbs1507 said:
Why do people make half assed comments like this? Why don't you read it yourself?

http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

I glossed over the nfl contract portion. It just basically says if a player willfully misses practice, workout, off season stuff etc he can be fined up to a certain extent. The fact that they even word it in the manner they did shows that it always has been and will continue to be a right of a player to holdout for any reason. It defintely doesn't speak of this bullcrap alot of other posters are saying "Well he signed a contract. He owes it to the team" I haven't seen a clause about that BS. It's a business. Get over it.
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/thread
 
badboy said:
I have not heard of one player being distracted. It sounds like AJ is not doing what you want him to and you are distracted. His contract (thru the CBA) allows him to do exactly what he is doing with only minor consequences. I think if NFL owners were really upset with behavior of players like AJ holding out or not showing or whatever, the consequences would be more severe. His actions are not immoral, criminal or evil. He is doing what he thinks is best for him under the rules.
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Breach of Contract is wrong. Yes, there are consequences when you do it, but that doesn't mitigate the wrong. Missing voluntary workouts may cause you to be unprepared, but you can work around that when you're a veteran and the physical toll is more profound than a level of mental unpreparedness.

But missing the mandatory workouts is another thing. The financial consequences may be minor, but the lack of honor remains. It is a common ploy of agents who have no honor.
 
cbs1507 said:
Why do people make half assed comments like this? Why don't you read it yourself?

http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

I glossed over the nfl contract portion. It just basically says if a player willfully misses practice, workout, off season stuff etc he can be fined up to a certain extent. The fact that they even word it in the manner they did shows that it always has been and will continue to be a right of a player to holdout for any reason. It defintely doesn't speak of this bullcrap alot of other posters are saying "Well he signed a contract. He owes it to the team" I haven't seen a clause about that BS. It's a business. Get over it.
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I love how you interpret a fine to mean it is a players right to hold out. Why in the hell would they be fining a player if it was their right to hold out? That has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

disaacks3 said:
So, you're going to just continue and make **** up? That's about it, right?

YOU think he's a quitter, and YOU think signing a contract means that only one side gets to assert their options under that contract?

:kubepalm:
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What did I make up? As I said in the message above, why would the team or league fine a player for something that was their right to do? If it is a right, there would be no fine. To say otherwise is utter nonsense.

This is an option players use when they do not have leverage because they are locked into a binding contract, and it is not a right. It's a strategy players use, but it is NOT a right. The fact that you have reduced your argument down to defending a hold out shows how disconnected from reality you are.

If it were Jon Weeks, or John Doe pulling this BS, you would all be screaming for his head. But because it is Dre, you want to give him a pass. That's called a double standard, and hypocrisy.

Most of you called for a culture change, and said the team was soft. So that change finally comes, and now you want to make exceptions for a star player. So much for culture change.

So now it has become less about the player and the situation, and more about attacking someone you disagree with, even though you all know holding out, for any reason is frowned upon and is a rather childish way to do business. I encourage all of you to try this crap where you work.

Send me a postcard from the unemployment line.
 
Uncle Rico said:
spin it any way you want, this team sucks currently. he has poured blood,sweat and tears into this organization he should be allowed to pursue greener pastures elsewhere because all we have here is a dried up rice field. Why let it become personal and bitter after such a stellar career?

Oh and why not mention the other 9 or 10 seasons of misery that he endured?
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I do NOT have any sympathy for a player who signs a contract that he later regrets. If you don't want to play, then retire. If you just want to get a new contract, then work your bottom off and don't become a distraction.
 
badboy said:
The bold is where I think you keep saying incorrectly that he is using some "special privilege" other players do not have. All the vets can do the same thing he is doing but chose not to. None is an 11 year with individual stats that he has. They chose to show he did not.

Any worker can decide to not show for work and experienced the consequences which would be different for many. That is what he is doing. He did not create the consequences; the players union and the owners created the consequences. His choice does not make him wrong, it just means some disagree or like me wish he had chosen differently.

I also think you are wrong if you think some employees do not get treated differently than coworkers if they are demonstrably better than those coworkers.
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While the bolded is true, most employers would not put up with it and would fire the employee unless they were essential and in that case, they would immediately begin finding a replacement so it they wouldn't be placed in that position again.

This is out of character for him and I suspect the wrong guy has his ear right now. Family can make you do foolish things.
 
xtruroyaltyx said:
I'm not really attached to any of these guys.
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I'm very attached emotionally to Earl and Bum (may he rest in peace) because they were from HERE! Earl played a my parents' high school, (Tyler-John Tyler) where I first saw him play and Bum shared a back fence in Orange with a close personal friend. I'm also friends with his ex son-in-law.

Akeem I was connected too, but not Hakeem. That is someone totally different in my opinion.
 
mussop said:
What a bunch of rubbish. You should just stop. :rake: players have the right in the nfl bargaining agreement to do exactly what AJ is doing and teams have the right to terminate contracts early if they see fit. So just stop with this nonsense.
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The bargaining agreement does NOT give a player the RIGHT to breech his contract. It lays out consequences for such breeches.

I do admit that I am not comfortable with the NFL teams being able to terminate player contracts through simple cuts, but that too has been agreed to in the bargaining agreement with the players union. Their (union) contract is more important than the individuals they represent. Bad message.
 
Marshall said:
I'm very attached emotionally to Earl and Bum (may he rest in peace) because they were from HERE! Earl played a my parents' high school, (Tyler-John Tyler) where I first saw him play and Bum shared a back fence in Orange with a close personal friend. I'm also friends with his ex son-in-law.

Akeem I was connected too, but not Hakeem. That is someone totally different in my opinion.
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I hear ya...I don't remember earl and bum much. I was about 8 or 9 when the rockets won their rings. And dream is my all time favorite athlete. But I'm not really "attached" I don't think.

I root for rashard Lewis because he is from my neck of the woods and went to my high school. But as bad as I wanted him to get a ring and as wrong as I felt about it, I just couldn't bring myself to root for the heat.

I understand it. I get it. But for me personally I just don't feel overly committed to these guys. I like what they do on the field, in the community...but I don't really know them. They're athletes and I think football is a different kind of entertainment (I understand the emotions/affinity for players)...I just don't get that attached to individual players. I like them. I'm just not going to feel any emotions when they are no longer around.
 
Nitrofish said:
The fact that you have reduced your argument down to defending a hold out shows how disconnected from reality you are.

If it were Jon Weeks, or John Doe pulling this BS, you would all be screaming for his head. But because it is Dre, you want to give him a pass. That's called a double standard, and hypocrisy.
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You're the one so far disconnected from reality that you've decided that the best player in Texans history is a quitter because he asserted an option allowed to him under the CBA.

The fact that you're ignorant enough to attempt a comparison to folks as replaceable as Jon Weeks shows a complete lack of comprehension. If Andre has essentially 3 more productive years, he has a real shot at making the Hall of Fame. If you think that makes him just another guy, then there's little point in the discussion.

Marshall said:
While the bolded is true, most employers would not put up with it and would fire the employee unless they were essential and in that case, they would immediately begin finding a replacement so it they wouldn't be placed in that position again.

This is out of character for him and I suspect the wrong guy has his ear right now. Family can make you do foolish things.
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In this case, the NFLPA and the NFL agreed that these were the conditions of said employment. They agreed on the details of OTAs and mini-camps to a fairly specific degree.

So, most employers in the same situation would do exactly what the NFL does...they follow the rules of that contract, lest they be dragged into a lawsuit with the NLRB. What "most" employers in other conditions would do has no relevance to this situation.

Sure, I think his Uncle (and whoever else is whispering in Andre's ear) aren't necessarily helping his cause, but that's been the case with much more high-profile agents than Dre's.
 
If Andre Johnson can't be motivated to work for MILLIONS of dollars for a few hours a day for the team he contracted with, then I say .... "Andre who?"

I'm quite sure there are a few of us who would be willing to sacrifice ourselves in his place.

He needs to count his blessings.
 
Andre is realizing he needs to finally start thinking about Andre just as the texans will do what is best in regards to the texans business wise. Super bowl can be said out of Bob McNair's mouth but business is business and a Houston Football team has yet to even reach the afc championship game since Bum Phillips was coaching. Andre Johnson right now is simply about the business of taking care of Andre Johnson. So Bob McNair can charge it to the game and continue to take care of his business by selling out stadium seats and maximizing his profit on rodeo events. This isn't a super bowl or bust organization and it never has been... what has been proven in Houston? Nothing but lies and failure. Bill O'brien is getting his shot which is good and hopefully Rick Smith and he have the full control they need.
 
disaacks3 said:
You're the one so far disconnected from reality that you've decided that the best player in Texans history is a quitter because he asserted an option allowed to him under the CBA.

The fact that you're ignorant enough to attempt a comparison to folks as replaceable as Jon Weeks shows a complete lack of comprehension. If Andre has essentially 3 more productive years, he has a real shot at making the Hall of Fame. If you think that makes him just another guy, then there's little point in the discussion.
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Listen, you can keep saying "An option is allowed to him under the CBA" all you want, it still will not make it true. If it were "Allowed" to him or any other players under the CBA, there would not be a fine for doing it. Use your brain. Your love fest with Andre Johnson is clouding your judgement.

The fact that he is the best player in Texans history has nothing to do with it. If your contention is that Dre does not have to follow the rules because he is Dre, then there is no helping you. This is a team sport, and Dre could not have accomplished the things he has without his teammates. Now he deserts his teammates when they need him most because he wants more money, or thinks he deserves to win a championship and you want to give him a pass.

Everyone is replaceable, and everyone is expected to abide by the rules, and by their contracts. The contracts that we are not privy to contain the language that spells out what is, and is not allowed, and the fact that teams cut players before their contracts are fulfilled is agreed upon therein.

Although I cannot say with absolute certainty that there is no language in Dre's contract that guarantees him a shot at the HoF. I would say it is highly unlikely any such language exists. Individual goals are not in the teams best interest, and only selfish players care about that. His contract most likely does not say "You will play for the Texans unless your individual goals are in danger" Trying to excuse his behavior because of that is absurd.

Dre statistically had a great year last season and was on a team that was undoubtedly worse than the team the Texans will field this season.

Dan Marino and Barry Sanders are both in the HoF. You know why? Because they were elite players, not because they won championships or played on good teams. Your straw man is falling apart.
 
Nitrofish said:
Listen, you can keep saying "An option is allowed to him under the CBA" all you want, it still will not make it true. If it were "Allowed" to him or any other players under the CBA, there would not be a fine for doing it. Use your brain. Your love fest with Andre Johnson is clouding your judgement.

The fact that he is the best player in Texans history has nothing to do with it. If your contention is that Dre does not have to follow the rules because he is Dre, then there is no helping you. This is a team sport, and Dre could not have accomplished the things he has without his teammates. Now he deserts his teammates when they need him most because he wants more money, or thinks he deserves to win a championship and you want to give him a pass.

Everyone is replaceable, and everyone is expected to abide by the rules, and by their contracts. The contracts that we are not privy to contain the language that spells out what is, and is not allowed, and the fact that teams cut players before their contracts are fulfilled is agreed upon therein.

Although I cannot say with absolute certainty that there is no language in Dre's contract that guarantees him a shot at the HoF. I would say it is highly unlikely any such language exists. Individual goals are not in the teams best interest, and only selfish players care about that. His contract most likely does not say "You will play for the Texans unless your individual goals are in danger" Trying to excuse his behavior because of that is absurd.

Dre statistically had a great year last season and was on a team that was undoubtedly worse than the team the Texans will field this season.

Dan Marino and Barry Sanders are both in the HoF. You know why? Because they were elite players, not because they won championships or played on good teams. Your straw man is falling apart.
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Barry Sanders played in a Nfc championship game and Dan Marino played in a super bowl. Andre hasn't even played in a afc championship game I believe that's a big factor. If the Texans as a organization truly cared about those things even for their own organization they would have done what was necessary years ago.
 
Nitrofish said:
I love how you interpret a fine to mean it is a players right to hold out. Why in the hell would they be fining a player if it was their right to hold out? That has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
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Can you read? I did not interpret fine to mean a player has a right to hold out. The simple fact is rights are already yours, they're not given to you by a document. Point blank.

Marshall said:
The bargaining agreement does NOT give a player the RIGHT to breech his contract. It lays out consequences for such breeches.

I do admit that I am not comfortable with the NFL teams being able to terminate player contracts through simple cuts, but that too has been agreed to in the bargaining agreement with the players union. Their (union) contract is more important than the individuals they represent. Bad message.
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The CBA does not give anyone any rights to do anything. It's literally the Constitution of the NFL. The constitution is a way of securing them. All corporations have them. It is the bylaws/regulations, or code of conduct if you will. If you know any about a constitution you know it does not give you any rights. The rights are already in existence. If there is no specific language restricting a right, it is in effect by default. There is no specific language saying a player cannot holdout. In fact, there is a specific clause that allows for changes to be made to an agreed upon contract. If you pay attention to the wording it is very clear that NFL contracts are volatile not stationary as many of you seem to think. At the end of the day a player will do what's best for himself (and if that includes happiness and winning etc then it is well within their right use any resources available even if that means a holdout), just as the team will do what's best for themselves (you know like cut a player that signed that sacred contract you guys speak about). All this other BS posters such as yourself are posting about "loyalty, honor, do it for the team" is for the birds. This is a business.
 
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Playoffs said:
Now here's a glass half full kinda guy! :doot:

[IMGwidthsize=100]http://leadershipelements.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/glass-half-full1.jpg[/IMG]
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The question of half full or half empty, the glass is always half FULL. Half of empty is always EMPTY. :)
 
I resent one player getting this much attention without even announcing his intentions firmly. It isn't worth 58 pages of speculation. If he wants to quit, let him quit. If he wants to play, let him work his can off while he learns the new system.
 
Nitrofish said:
20f92x5.jpg
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If you're done ****ting on the board answer me this. If the two of us have a standard contract where I work for you and I break the contract what happens? Do you have the right to fine me? Do you have the right to void the contract yourself?

Since you have a problem grasping this ill answer for you. No and no. Not unless we have a collective agreement that allows me to back out with fines and allows you to terminate such contract at your discretion.

Without that agreement your only recourse would be to take me to court and sue. The fact that they can fine the players should make it obvious that there is a provision that allows players to sit out. If there wasn't then the teams only option would be to take the player to court and sue do to breach of contract.

Now stop strutting around and ****ting on this board. It's making you look like you have a bird brain.
 
Agree with Marshall and Nitrofish, and if I am the Texans I let him retire. I don't trade him and I don't renegotiate which sets a bad precedent. I say if you want to be part of the team, we will welcome you with open arms, but no player is bigger than the team and if you don't want to be part of the team, then you are welcome to retire but you as the employee don't get to tell us how to run our business. We employ you to do a job and if you aren't willing to do said job, then it's time to move on.

Name another business where a man can not show up to work, get paid, and grumble about the way the business is being run and demand they get transferred to another division of said company in another state.

Lastly, I don't even know what the hell his problem is. I don't think it's been made public, but he is losing a lot of respect at this point and he just needs to take his sorry ass back to Miami and settle in his easy chair if he isn't willing to be on the team.
 
mussop said:
If you're done ****ting on the board answer me this. If the two of us have a standard contract where I work for you and I break the contract what happens? Do you have the right to fine me? Do you have the right to void the contract yourself?

Since you have a problem grasping this ill answer for you. No and no. Not unless we have a collective agreement that allows me to back out with fines and allows you to terminate such contract at your discretion.

Without that agreement your only recourse would be to take me to court and sue. The fact that they can fine the players should make it obvious that there is a provision that allows players to sit out. If there wasn't then the teams only option would be to take the player to court and sue do to breach of contract.

Now stop strutting around and ****ting on this board. It's making you look like you have a bird brain.
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207njb9.jpg
 
mussop said:
If you're done ****ting on the board answer me this. If the two of us have a standard contract where I work for you and I break the contract what happens? Do you have the right to fine me? Do you have the right to void the contract yourself?

Since you have a problem grasping this ill answer for you. No and no. Not unless we have a collective agreement that allows me to back out with fines and allows you to terminate such contract at your discretion.

Without that agreement your only recourse would be to take me to court and sue. The fact that they can fine the players should make it obvious that there is a provision that allows players to sit out. If there wasn't then the teams only option would be to take the player to court and sue do to breach of contract.
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This is exactly correct. There are even provisions now that if Andre were to hold out in the regular season that the team can go get portions of the signing bonus back.

However, this still hurts the team and it damages my opinion of Andre. If he wanted to go play for a winner so badly, he should have let his contract expire and signed with another team at a discounted rate years ago. He can't have it both ways.
 
noxiousdog said:
This is exactly correct. There are even provisions now that if Andre were to hold out in the regular season that the team can go get portions of the signing bonus back.

However, this still hurts the team and it damages my opinion of Andre. If he wanted to go play for a winner so badly, he should have let his contract expire and signed with another team at a discounted rate years ago. He can't have it both ways.
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When are you speaking about? Because the original contract was an extension to his rookie contract signed in 2007. Oh it was a bad contract (for AJ but great for the "team"), especially considering a year late Larry Fitz gets a monster $100+ mil with over $20 mil more in guaranteed than Johnson's. Sure after back to back 100+ catch, 1500+ yard seasons Johnson demanded more money. The amount he got extra was still miniscule compare to Fitz and other's such as Harvin, Wallace etc, all people who's production was sub par (and still is) compared to AJ's. Besides you are trying to compare the difference between a 25 year old AJ (2007) and a 32 year old AJ (2014). Just a little perspective ;)
 
cbs1507 said:
When are you speaking about? Because the original contract was an extension to his rookie contract signed in 2007. Oh it was a bad contract (for AJ but great for the "team"), especially considering a year late Larry Fitz gets a monster $100+ mil with over $20 mil more in guaranteed than Johnson's. Sure after back to back 100+ catch, 1500+ yard seasons Johnson demanded more money. The amount he got extra was still miniscule compare to Fitz and other's such as Harvin, Wallace etc, all people who's production was sub par (and still is) compared to AJ's. Besides you are trying to compare the difference between a 25 year old AJ (2007) and a 32 year old AJ (2014). Just a little perspective ;)
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That's what happens with you negotiate contracts without good representation. AJ did the first contract on his own. The second contract was done by his uncle. Then the team re-structured twice to give him more guaranteed money. If AJ wanted more money back in 08 then he should have brought in proper representation.
 
cbs1507 said:
When are you speaking about? Because the original contract was an extension to his rookie contract signed in 2007. Oh it was a bad contract (for AJ but great for the "team"), especially considering a year late Larry Fitz gets a monster $100+ mil with over $20 mil more in guaranteed than Johnson's. Sure after back to back 100+ catch, 1500+ yard seasons Johnson demanded more money. The amount he got extra was still miniscule compare to Fitz and other's such as Harvin, Wallace etc, all people who's production was sub par (and still is) compared to AJ's. Besides you are trying to compare the difference between a 25 year old AJ (2007) and a 32 year old AJ (2014). Just a little perspective ;)
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He signed one extention in 2007 and another one in 2010. He was 29.

edit: And you're only going to be the highest paid when you sign. Contracts always go up. If you want to be the highest paid, then you need a short contract so you can renegotiate sooner.
 
Troy Chapman said:
That's what happens with you negotiate contracts without good representation. AJ did the first contract on his own. The second contract was done by his uncle. Then the team re-structured twice to give him more guaranteed money. If AJ wanted more money back in 08 then he should have brought in proper representation.
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No doubt representing himself backfired in this case. You have to have proper knowledge to be able to get your worth. So unfortunately for him he did not. Perhaps a little patience could have helped as well. If he would have waited until 2009 then he definitely would have gotten more (even if he represented himself). I'm sure the Texans were thrilled to sign him at that rate, especially seeing the type of money less worthy receivers have been getting since.

BTW just FYI there was no second contract (technically ever). The "first" was an extension to his rookie contract. The "second" was a restructuring (adding a year and paying it as a bonus to be prorated). This is the reason his cap hit is 14+ mil over the next few year (because it was so low in all the previous ones). Which is the main reason I always bring this up when people talk about "Andre signed a contract he's screwing the team etc". The fact is he got screwed first (of course to some of own undoing). Perhaps it isn't about money. Perhaps he wants to win.

If we again put all things in perspective the argument "if he wanted to win he shouldn't have signed a contract" is baseless. Because as you can see in 2007 a 25 year old AJ signed a contract after our first NON LOSING season with a 2nd year head coach (before his monster years). Why not resign? What would have made him think that he couldn't turn things around for the franchise that drafted him? Now fast forward to 2014. He's 32. We just picked #1 overall (for the 3rd time in franchise history) after going winning back to back division titles and winning playoff games (which were the first time in his, at the time, 10 years here). Brand new coaching staff. No QB. Didn't draft one. Perhaps Andre, after many years of optimism, was beginning to question if we would ever win here.

People are bashing Johnson's pessimism. He was very optimistic through all the BS before. You think he's not seeing the writing on the wall.

P.S. Sorry for the long winded post. The entire thing wasn't directly solely at you. I got little off track...
noxiousdog said:
He signed one extention in 2007 and another one in 2010. He was 29.

edit: And you're only going to be the highest paid when you sign. Contracts always go up. If you want to be the highest paid, then you need a short contract so you can renegotiate sooner.
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Yes in 2007 it was a 6 year extension (which definitely wasn't smart). In 2010 it was a 1 year extension in the form of a restructure to clear up cap.
 
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Transactions per Spotrac:
Sep 3 2013
Restructured 2013 salary/roster bonus from $10.5 million to $5 million with Houston (HOU)
Mar 13 2012
Restructured 2012 salary from $6.5 million to $700k with Houston (HOU)
Aug 5 2010
Signed a 7 year $67.8 million extension with Houston (HOU)
Mar 3 2007
Signed a 6 year $70 million extension with Houston (HOU)
Jul 22 2003
Signed a 6 year $39 million contract with Houston (HOU)
Apr 26 2003
Drafted by Houston (HOU): Round 1 (#3 overall)

Career earnings from bonus (guaranteed money) ~ $44m and career earnings with salary ~ $75m

You can say it was the first contract re-worked over and over...still doesn't change the fact that Andre could have probably had a contract more in line with his skill level on the first extension.
 
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