Foster is an excellent red-zone back, but otherwise not a particularly gifted runner who had just average long-speed and minimal explosiveness & quickness. I'm thinking in O'Brien's offense he's a dime-a-dozen
kinda back.
Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍
Report: Texans G.M. prefers Khalil Mack to Jadeveon Clowney
- Thread starter CloakNNNdagger
- Start date
kinda back.
You got any data to back up that random assertion?
or maybe a better question is what's your definition of "all day to throw"?
Most QBs get rid of the ball in 2-3 seconds. Holding the ball for 3.5 seconds will get you sacked.
This ProFootballFocus Link shows how long today's QBs take to pass the ball successfully vs. how long they can hold it before they end up being sacked.
Thoughts?
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
Foster has or HAD some of the best field vision i've ever seen in a running back.
There's no validation to that report, but someone who saw him working out at the Arkansas Pro Day this past year(I think) said it appeared it had gotten weaker.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Last edited:
Perhaps but that's beside my point because "field vision" is an acquired skill, not a gift.
NastyNate
I go kerplunk
I'd argue that field vision is a natural instinct, one of the few things you can't coach up. Some guys just have better vision than others.
I hope for Mack but accept that the pick will probably be Clowney. Hopefully RAC can come up with a hybrid scheme a la Seattle to take advantage of his skill set. I think he would be mediocre as a 34 WOLB
drs23
Veteran
BullNation4Life
All Pro
right next to giving Arian the contract they gave him...
soooo if this was to happen why would it be a surprise?
Cutting Arian down the road is a better option than trading him now for a backup QB that probably wants an 8 million dollar a year contract, who we also don't know if he'll perform well at all. Sign Mallett next year for a modest contract when he becomes a FA if it is really what you want. Don't trade a star RB because he had one wasted season for a backup QB who has proven less than nothing.
Foster's contract is going to be a problem, but he is not going anywhere at least for this season and that would be an idiotic trade.
As far as the goes, We don't know if Foster will perform well at all. He had back surgery and missed eight games last year. And I love how you keep throwing out non factual arguments to support your POV. First it was his arm has gotten weaker and now you know how much money he will want. Whatever!
I won't go as far as saying it would be idiotic to keep him another year but it really is a waste of time. He's not going to be in this teams future. Hell he likely doesn't have much of a future. His time is nearly up. That is a forgone conclusion. Mallet on the other hand could turn out to be a decent QB. Trading a soon to be washed up RB even for a decent backup is a win for this team at this point.
If I had your negative outlook... yeah. I see where you're coming from.
We're not going to win a championship in the next year or two... he's a wasted luxury & if Mallet can be a decent starter, we're the better for it.
What would you say the odds are that we sin a championship in the next year or two.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
Getting anything out of arian would be a shrewd buisness move. While I like the idea of getting something outta him, thats not the kind of move the texans make. We hold on to players to long and reward them with huge contracts right before their performance falls off the cliff.
Should see what we can get....but we won't.
Should see what we can get....but we won't.
40:1
But for me, that's not the point. I believe from the top down everything we do needs to be done with the goal of winning, both in the near & long term. If I think Ryan Mallet has a very good chance of being a franchise QB & the only way I can get him means I've got to trade my franchise RB, then yeah, I do it.
But I believe there's more football left in Arian Foster & I don't think he's getting too much of the salary cap. I do not believe he is so much of a drag that it would benefit us to trade him this year or next.
Speaking of "non-factual arguments", do you have a quote to post from Bill O'Brien that supports this "forgone conclusion" that Foster isn't in his plans for this offense?
Where did I say That foster isn't in OBs plans for this offense?
Perhaps I misunderstood your post. Who were you speaking of when you said this:
Originally Posted by mussop
I won't go as far as saying it would be idiotic to keep him another year but it really is a waste of time. He's not going to be in this teams future. Hell he likely doesn't have much of a future. His time is nearly up. That is a forgone conclusion. Mallet on the other hand could turn out to be a decent QB. Trading a soon to be washed up RB even for a decent backup is a win for this team at this point.
Why is this the kind of move the Texans org doesn't make? Is it the owner/GM/HC that has refused to make these kinds of moves in the past?
So you're not concerned that Foster will be coming off of the kind of back surgery that ended Shaun Cody's career? Kubiak overworked Foster and now he's damaged goods. It would be best to trade Foster a yr early and get something for him than a yr too late. IMHO
I was referring to foster. But you did misunderstand. I'm saying the combination of his age, recent injury history and the wear on him has added up. He's on the backend of his career. He has a limited amount of time left. It doesn't fit within the time frame of this teams return to contention.
Never said anything about how OB would or wouldn't use him in his offensive plans. Of course he won't be able to use him of he is broke down.
Texian
Hall of Fame
I have as much concern about the changing and dismantling of the OL that Foster was use to running behind. That OL was a two year project it Alex Gibbs to install and refine. Sometimes ZBS RB don't perform as well in other systems.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
If he is damaged goods, what do you think we would get in a trade for him? ... Assuming he passed the physical... I think there is more value in keeping him, hoping fora healthy season, than in dumping him for a late round pick... The mistake to avoid is keeping him and managing the position with an expectation he will remain healthy.
The point being most people have complaints of Foster's cap number this year and the years coming, and I don't think it helps the team's case trading for an unproven QB who is due for an extension in the next year.
I'm not under the belief that Arian is still in his prime or anything, but I do believe we can get more production out of him than you believe, and we can find a QB to match Mallet's likely production in the middle rounds of this year's draft for next to nothing cap wise. Mallett has not taken meaningful snaps in almost 4 years, and he's not exactly an Aaron Rodgers or Steve Young ability wise.
Not at all worried. I'd be thrilled if Arian can lead us to a division title.
& yes, with the schedule we're playing in 2014 with an improved OL, I believe he can.
Longshot... maybe. But I don't think he's damaged goods.
hookinreds
Veteran
ESPN's Adam Schefter indicated on SportsCenter Friday that Buffalo OLB Khalil Mack may still be in the mix to go No. 1 overall to the Texans.
"I do not believe Khalil Mack can be dismissed from the conversation at the No. 1 pick," were Schefter's words. Mack has never been truly dismissed from the discussion, but the commonly held expectation is Houston will select South Carolina DE/OLB Jadeveon Clowney. It's worth noting Mack might be a better scheme fit than Clowney for Romeo Crennel's 3-4. In April, SI's Peter King reported a "friend" of Houston GM Rick Smith told him Smith prefers Mack over Clowney. The Texans also shocked the world in 2006 when they picked Mario Williams over Reggie Bush at No. 1, though Smith wasn't their GM at the time.
"I do not believe Khalil Mack can be dismissed from the conversation at the No. 1 pick," were Schefter's words. Mack has never been truly dismissed from the discussion, but the commonly held expectation is Houston will select South Carolina DE/OLB Jadeveon Clowney. It's worth noting Mack might be a better scheme fit than Clowney for Romeo Crennel's 3-4. In April, SI's Peter King reported a "friend" of Houston GM Rick Smith told him Smith prefers Mack over Clowney. The Texans also shocked the world in 2006 when they picked Mario Williams over Reggie Bush at No. 1, though Smith wasn't their GM at the time.
Right now today, Mack would probably be a better fit in Crennel's defense than Clowney, but who even knows if Crennel will be in Houston much beyond this year, while whoever the Texans draft with their 1.1 will almost certainly be a Texan for atleast 4 or 5 years.
drs23
Veteran
One can only hope. At least one is.
That's in spite of that Texian guy/gal chirping about me being a "TeddyBot". Whatever the hell that is.
That's actually a very salient point. It's a player's league. And a good coach should be able to utilize a great player. Not that I've ever bought into Clowney not fitting into Crennel's defense in the first place.
DX-TEX
#TomSavageDontCare
Ive said it since they hired Mike Vrabel as linebackers coach: Vrabel is the heir to Crennel at DC
Agreed.
IMO, if the Texans draft Clowney (which I don't see happening ever), Reed goes to the middle and Merci goes to the strong side and that could be fluid. Clowney might be better from the strong side, I'm not sold on Merci. This is his year to prove himself.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
If your approach to drafting is to take the best player available, then you can't tie yourself in knots about taking a guy who's going to force someone else out that's not getting production but whom you used a high draft pick on.
Neither Reed or Mercilus have performed up to this point. If either one of them or BOTH of them become redundant, if one of them can't beat out Clowney for their job, then "Hello, Mr. Bench."
Our biggest goal should be putting the best, most productive players on the field who are going to help us win. If the FO decides Clowney or Mack is the best player in this draft AND RAC can use him, then we should draft him and let the chips fall where they may.
This is why I'm for Watkins and Robinson. Those are the two guys I think would do the most to improve this team. But I could be wrong. Clowney could be that guy. Mack could be that guy. (A. J. McCarron could be that guy, but for goodness sake don't tell TK I said that.) It's up to the FO to figure that out and make the right play.
So I'm probably not going to blast them about their picks until we see the product they put on the field. It's the organization's job to figure out which guys we want, it's Smith's job to figure out how to maneuver ourselves to get the guys that are going to do us the most good, and it's OB and RAC's job to take whatever Smith gets for them and turn it into a winning team.
Agreed. I was befuddled when they picked Jj Watt, but seems like they knew what they were doing.
NastyNate
I go kerplunk
We had the two worst OLB's in the NFL last year. I don't know how you can't focus on that position. Mack is a 3 down player, he can play DE in a 4-3, Will, sam, both inside positions, he's about as versatile a player as you can get and the best player in this draft. He's what you want if you are looking to create a dominant Seattle like defense. Reed won't produce inside, just as he hasn't produced outside. He should ride the pine. Maybe Williams steps up, maybe Mercilus does but I wouldn't bank on it.
Mack is BPA, fits our biggest defensive need, and is extremely versatile. He's the best possible fit.
Mack is probably the better fit and the safer player since he has a really good motor.
Clowney is the better talent though. I don`t think you draft the #1 pick based on fit. Clowney could play DE or OLB for us and a good coach should be able to teach him, what he needs to no. If Clowney plays OLB, he`d drop perhaps 3 times a game (just what we wanted to do with Mario).
I think we could pick up Mack after a trade down, and that would probably be the best case scenario. But if we stay at #1, I think we need to take a long hard look at Clowney.
And who should sit? Is that really a question? If he plays DE, we have a need right there right now. If he plays OLB we either have a solid 3 men rotaton or Reed turns into an ILB. OLB is a position of need, although we have Merciless and Reed - they couldn`t get it done last season. So it wouldn`t be tough to make room for Clowney or Mack.
NastyNate
I go kerplunk
Only position Clowney fills is OLB. He's not going to make an impact as a 3-4 DE, he doesn't have the motor for it. Funny thing is, when teams knew how impactful Clowney was last year, they easily took him out of the game. He managed just 3 sacks and 1 FF when all eyes were on him. When teams realized how impactful Mack was, they tried to do the same, and yet he produced unreal stat lines. Macks' production increased every single year in college. Clowney was the opposite. I would argue that talent is measured on the field. Talent shines through, and Mack is the most talented. Clowney is perhaps a better athlete. I mean, he can run faster in shorts in a straight line. He's slower by 2 tenths in the 3-cone drill than Mack. Mack put up 2 more reps on the bench than Clowney so who's to even say who the better athlete is.
bah007
Hall of Fame
Possible LB configurations with Clowney:
SOLB - Brooks Reed, Trevardo Williams
SILB - Mike Mohamed, Paul Hazel
WILB - Brian Cushing, Jeff Tarpinian, Justin Tuggle
WOLB - Jadeveon Clowney, Whitney Mercilus, Ricky Sapp
SOLB - Trevardo Williams
SILB - Brooks Reed, Mike Mohamed, Paul Hazel
WILB - Brian Cushing, Jeff Tarpinian, Justin Tuggle
WOLB - Jadeveon Clowney, Whitney Mercilus, Ricky Sapp
With Mack:
SOLB - Khalil Mack, Brooks Reed
SILB - Mike Mohamed, Paul Hazel
WILB - Brian Cushing, Jeff Tarpinian, Justin Tuggle
WOLB - Whitney Mercilus, Trevardo Williams, Ricky Sapp
SOLB - Khalil Mack, Trevardo Williams
SILB - Brooks Reed, Mike Mohamed, Paul Hazel
WILB - Brian Cushing, Jeff Tarpinian, Justin Tuggle
WOLB - Whitney Mercilus, Ricky Sapp
SOLB - Brooks Reed, Trevardo Williams
SILB - Mike Mohamed, Paul Hazel
WILB - Brian Cushing, Jeff Tarpinian, Justin Tuggle
WOLB - Jadeveon Clowney, Whitney Mercilus, Ricky Sapp
SOLB - Trevardo Williams
SILB - Brooks Reed, Mike Mohamed, Paul Hazel
WILB - Brian Cushing, Jeff Tarpinian, Justin Tuggle
WOLB - Jadeveon Clowney, Whitney Mercilus, Ricky Sapp
With Mack:
SOLB - Khalil Mack, Brooks Reed
SILB - Mike Mohamed, Paul Hazel
WILB - Brian Cushing, Jeff Tarpinian, Justin Tuggle
WOLB - Whitney Mercilus, Trevardo Williams, Ricky Sapp
SOLB - Khalil Mack, Trevardo Williams
SILB - Brooks Reed, Mike Mohamed, Paul Hazel
WILB - Brian Cushing, Jeff Tarpinian, Justin Tuggle
WOLB - Whitney Mercilus, Ricky Sapp
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
With LDE Tim Jamison, DT Jerrell Powe, RDE JJ Watt
Thanks goodness we have 11 draft picks. (Maybe more)
Number19
Hall of Fame
A while back I found a good break down on Mercilus' play last season at Battle Red Blog (part one : http://www.battleredblog.com/2014/2/7/5348558/2013-season-review-whitney-mercilus part two : http://www.battleredblog.com/2014/2...texans-season-review-whitney-mercilus-part-ii ).
This analysis shows Mercilus has a good set up move - outside rush plus rip - but that's it. He doesn't effectively use, or have, a counter move to the inside nor does he have a finishing move such as the swim or spin.
Going up against the LT every game, the opposing players quickly learned this and was able to neutralize his rush.
The good news is that OLB's make their biggest improvement in production their second year of starting, which would be 2014 in Whitney's case. His deficiencies are correctable with a little more coaching and training.
This analysis shows Mercilus has a good set up move - outside rush plus rip - but that's it. He doesn't effectively use, or have, a counter move to the inside nor does he have a finishing move such as the swim or spin.
Going up against the LT every game, the opposing players quickly learned this and was able to neutralize his rush.
The good news is that OLB's make their biggest improvement in production their second year of starting, which would be 2014 in Whitney's case. His deficiencies are correctable with a little more coaching and training.
bhsman
Rookie
This is pretty wrong considering that Mack had a much lower level of competition and didn't receive near as much attention as Clowney (25% vs ~13% on passing downs alone). Meanwhile, as a result of all that extra attention, his teammate Kelcy Quarles went from 3.5 sacks in 2012 (when Clowney was a legit defensive Heisman candidate) to double digits when he was only given single coverage by the offensive line. Mack, by comparison, shows great instincts and speed but really struggles going against any sort of experienced lineman (Mewhort in the Ohio State game and against Baylor) that isn't playing in the MAC, and offenses were content to often leave a TE on him to block (the bowl game versus SDSU).
Finally, Mack has been succeeding despite relative obscurity in the MAC, whereas Clowney has been hailed as a #1 pick since coming out of high school and had to deal with all of the media hype from 'The Hit' last year. To compare their situations directly and claim that Mack had an 'unreal' season while Clowney faltered is not only incorrect, but kinda dumb!
Clowney is 15-20lbs heavier and has longer arms than Mack (which has a big enough the bench press - nevermind that any weight trainer would scoff at the bench press being an indication of functional strength), so I'm not sure how you can just look at the results without any context and conclude that Mack is simply better. Clowney is easily the BPA of the draft, not Mack.
NastyNate
I go kerplunk
You can cry about MAC vs. SEC talent level but Devin Taylor made Clowney what he was in his two years of production. When he left you saw the dropoff. Mack made his own success, name one other notable pass rusher on that Buffalo defense. I could go through and debate your other points but they're all pretty moot. Mack beat Clowney in every measurable at the combine aside from 40 time. Better work ethic, better athlete, better talent, higher upside, everything points to Mack.
bhsman
Rookie
Clowney had his best season ever the year after Melvin Ingram left, so perhaps you don't have any idea what you're talking about? Go watch some tape.
I don't downgrade a guy for playing in the MAC, but watching Mack play against Mewhort or a team like Baylor and not show up as a pass rusher when facing decent talent wasn't encouraging, and why I like him better as the ILB next to Cush if we draft him rather than OLB.
"I could actually address the points that are inconvenient to my argument but those involve actually watching tape and putting my own points to the test."
Ryan Shazier beat Mack in the vertical, bench press, 40 time (comparing pro days) AND the 20-yard shuffle, so by your logic he's a lock for first overall, right?
Yeh in a base defense which OB has said will only be ran about 30% of the time. So your argument is really 70% NA. On top of that Clowney is almost unanimously considered the better prospect. The only thing I see Mack better at is open field tackling. I don't see RAC having a problem finding a way to utilize a player with Clowneys ability. He's not some rookie DC.
bhsman
Rookie
Mack is also very polished when he's in coverage.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
You're dead wrong here. Mack made Mewhort look like an UDFA in the game against Ohio State. He recorded 2.5 sacks, 9 tackles, and returned an INT for a TD. He would have had 3.5 sacks if Mewhort hadn't traded a sack for a holding penalty.
Against Baylor, he only had 4 tackles. But that's mainly because Baylor's quick passing attack neutralizes most pass rushers. They only gave up 1 more sack this year than A&M's vaunted O-Line. You can also bet, as he was the only weapon in the Buffalo front seven, that he saw most of Baylor's attention in pass pro. Especially considering that game was 1 week after he shredded the Ohio State O-Line. I'm sure he had their attention that week as much as Clowney has had any opponent's attention.
Also, Baylor jumped out to a huge lead early in the game and Petty only threw 16 passes. Hard to blame Mack for not filling up the stat sheet.