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2014 QB Class Not That Great

leebigeztx said:
I didn't like the schaub trade,but I understood it.Kubes got the job because I'm sure he told mcnair he could fix carr.
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I'm not so sure that is how it went down. A more likely scenario is NcNair told Kubiak that he (McNair) had no problem paying Carr his $10 million option and McNair's preference was for Kubiak to work with Carr and try to correct his discrepancies and short comings. It was no secret that McNair had an affinity for Carr and his family and likely wanted to give him every chance possible.
 
Texian said:
I'm not so sure that is how it went down. A more likely scenario is NcNair told Kubiak that he (McNair) had no problem paying Carr his $10 million option and McNair's preference was for Kubiak to work with Carr and try to correct his discrepancies and short comings. It was no secret that McNair had an affinity for Carr and his family and likely wanted to give him every chance possible.
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Yep

I just hope McNair doesn't have an affinity for JM at 1-1.

This is another example of McNair's feeling helping produce a team with the worst record in the NFL.
 
steelbtexan said:
Yep

I just hope McNair doesn't have an affinity for JM at 1-1.

This is another example of McNair's feeling helping produce a team with the worst record in the NFL.
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Some pretty decent teams have been 2-14 recently. Maybe it doesn't mean what you think it means.
 
Texian said:
I'm not so sure that is how it went down. A more likely scenario is NcNair told Kubiak that he (McNair) had no problem paying Carr his $10 million option and McNair's preference was for Kubiak to work with Carr and try to correct his discrepancies and short comings. It was no secret that McNair had an affinity for Carr and his family and likely wanted to give him every chance possible.
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The coaches interviewed were asked if Carr was a SB capable qb. The investment in carr had to be explored by any coach coming in. Physically,Kubes thought he could get through until he saw the early exits from reliant and the same mistakes being made. They were gonna have to pay the 10m regardless based on contract structure.

Steelb,contrary to what you think of my opinions, I do believe in building the trenches. Our disagreements are about how to do it and the the order. I think there is a big gap from the top 3 qbs and the next tier. I also think the vast depth in the draft on the lines will help the texans. When you see guys like richardson,moses,and james being there in late 2nd/early 3rd leads me that way. I'm not buying the 2nd tier being close to the top guys.
 
steelbtexan said:
I wonder if Mosley/Nix is available at 2-1 would the Texans pick him? Then would they be willing to trade back up to say 35 to take say Garappolo/Mettenberger/Savage/Murray and how much would the cost be? 3-1/5-1 & a 2015 3rd? Would you do a deal like that?

There seem to be some similarities between Flacco and Savage.
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Savage looks more like john skelton and derek anderson thanu:wild: he do Flacco.
 
steelbtexan said:
The phantom pressure thing doesn't bother me. Him slipping away shows me that he knows how to work the pocket. The throwing to the left thing bothers me, but I didn't see this problem in the all star games and if his mechanics are as good as they appear to be BOB should have no problem cleaning this flaw up. But then again you've probably watched more film of Garappolo than I have.

With that said all QB's have weaknesses in their games coming out of college, including the big 3. But give me the guy with great mechanics and a good head on his shoulders. He's more likely to fix the warts. It's really up to any of these QB's at the top of this draft to work hard and study hard to improve. Out of the top 7 QB's 2/3 of them will put in the work and become great starters. I'm betting on Garappolo.
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Meh, the phantom pressure thing is worse than that.

http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2014/03/05/qb-jimmy-garoppolo-knockout/

Has some good clips of what I'm talking about. He huddles up when no one is near him.

I feel the same way, but I guess I really wouldn't want to spend more than the 3-1 on Garoppolo.
 
leebigeztx said:
My point of the article is you have to ignore the noise,identify the right qb,and make the pick. As the article stated, ryan was anywhere from 1-9. Look through old predraft talk as I do, and make your own assessment of qbs. I know this and recent nfl history will tell you,get the qb in the 1st rd. If its a 2nd rd guy,you have to be right on him or its a wasted pick also like claussen,henne.
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Well, that's not at all what I got out of that article. Had the Ravens got Brian Brohm or Chad Henne, I have no doubt they'd have made the play-offs just as often, as it was that teams defense that carried them to the play offs.

Like Russell Wilson, Flacco didn't have to do a whole lot with those teams.


Taking nothing away from Flacco's performance in the play offs, but had the Ravens not taken him, & he went to GreenBay, or Miami, he probably never sees the play offs.
 
leebigeztx said:
The coaches interviewed were asked if Carr was a SB capable qb. The investment in carr had to be explored by any coach coming in. Physically,Kubes thought he could get through until he saw the early exits from reliant and the same mistakes being made. They were gonna have to pay the 10m regardless based on contract structure.
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Not quite! If the owner has already decided that he wants to pay the $10 million option, what do you expect a brand new head coach to say? Basic common sense.

McNair did NOT have to pay the option. He had a choice and the #1 pick in the draft. If McNair had decided NOT to pay the option, Carr would've been a FA. The option was paid long before the draft and long before new coaches had a chance to really evaluate any QBs in the upcoming draft.

My guess is McNair's feelings toward Carr where made crystal clear to Gary Kubiak before the final decision was made to hire Gary Kubiak.
 
Texian said:
Not quite! If the owner has already decided that he wants to pay the $10 million option, what do you expect a brand new head coach to say? Basic common sense.

McNair did NOT have to pay the option. He had a choice and the #1 pick in the draft. If McNair had decided NOT to pay the option, Carr would've been a FA. The option was paid long before the draft and long before new coaches had a chance to really evaluate any QBs in the upcoming draft.

My guess is McNair's feelings toward Carr where made crystal clear to Gary Kubiak before the final decision was made to hire Gary Kubiak.
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I doubt anything was explicitly stated as a condition for being hired but I would bet it was pretty easy to discern McNair wanted to see Carr succeed and had just been told by Reeves he could. I think Kubiak honestly believed he could fix Carr as well and didn't just say it not believing it to get the job. After a year's experience he knew better, told McNair and they cut bait. That's all speculation of course but what I think is most likely.
 
infantrycak said:
I doubt anything was explicitly stated as a condition for being hired but I would bet it was pretty easy to discern McNair wanted to see Carr succeed and had just been told by Reeves he could. I think Kubiak honestly believed he could fix Carr as well and didn't just say it not believing it to get the job. After a year's experience he knew better, told McNair and they cut bait. That's all speculation of course but what I think is most likely.
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We're in basic agreement. I also concur that Reeves confirmed what McNair wanted to hear. Therefore the Carr decision was a foregone conclusion by the time Kubiak was hired. And Kubiak was all to happy to comply with Reeves and McNair.
 
Texian said:
We're in basic agreement. I also concur that Reeves confirmed what McNair wanted to hear. Therefore the Carr decision was a foregone conclusion by the time Kubiak was hired. And Kubiak was all to happy to comply with Reeves and McNair.
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Physically he was still a specimen. Not ideal build, but close enough. His arm was more than strong enough & he knew enough to make himself look deadly accurate.

Situational toughness was his biggest problem & there's no way to know how far gone he is, until you're coaching him in those situations.

It wasn't worth it to us, to me at least, to go through another year of that, definitely not worth the $8M. But if I were Bob, trying to find one thing that we had done right in the previous four years, maybe it was worth it to him.
 
thunderkyss said:
Physically he was still a specimen. Not ideal build, but close enough. His arm was more than strong enough & he knew enough to make himself look deadly accurate.

Situational toughness was his biggest problem & there's no way to know how far gone he is, until you're coaching him in those situations.

It wasn't worth it to us, to me at least, to go through another year of that, definitely not worth the $8M. But if I were Bob, trying to find one thing that we had done right in the previous four years, maybe it was worth it to him.
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I thought McNair didn't get involved in football decisions?

Fallacy, the #1 reason the franchise is where it is today is because of Bob/Cal McNair. Kinda like the Lions/Ford family.
 
steelbtexan said:
Fallacy, the #1 reason the franchise is where it is today is because of Bob/Cal McNair. Kinda like the Lions/Ford family.
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You're not suggesting I said McNair doesn't get involved in football decisions are you?

If I were a billionaire & bought a football team, I'd probably be as involved as McNair, if not Jerry Jones. People like you think you know more than Rick Smith, why shouldn't McNair? Why is he so different, or you so different?

The first 4 years was a failure. Unlike you, McNair can't act like it didn't happen. Expecting us to be Super Bowl champs 8 years after such a failure is not very realistic. Still, the Texans had a shot. Maybe an outside shot, but our last three years was better than 10 teams.

& that's because of McNair & his involvement. The vision he defined, the standard he holds the Texans to.

Not up to your standard, I get it.

But I like what McNair is doing & hopes he keeps on keeping on.
 
Texian said:
Not quite! If the owner has already decided that he wants to pay the $10 million option, what do you expect a brand new head coach to say? Basic common sense.

McNair did NOT have to pay the option. He had a choice and the #1 pick in the draft. If McNair had decided NOT to pay the option, Carr would've been a FA. The option was paid long before the draft and long before new coaches had a chance to really evaluate any QBs in the upcoming draft.

My guess is McNair's feelings toward Carr where made crystal clear to Gary Kubiak before the final decision was made to hire Gary Kubiak.
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The consultant,dan reeves told mcnair to draft young and trade carr. You pay a consultant couple of 100k to evaluate your team,he advised you on something and he found a guy who told him something he wanted to hear.
 
thunderkyss said:
You're not suggesting I said McNair doesn't get involved in football decisions are you?

If I were a billionaire & bought a football team, I'd probably be as involved as McNair, if not Jerry Jones. People like you think you know more than Rick Smith, why shouldn't McNair? Why is he so different, or you so different?

The first 4 years was a failure. Unlike you, McNair can't act like it didn't happen. Expecting us to be Super Bowl champs 8 years after such a failure is not very realistic. Still, the Texans had a shot. Maybe an outside shot, but our last three years was better than 10 teams.

& that's because of McNair & his involvement. The vision he defined, the standard he holds the Texans to.

Not up to your standard, I get it.

But I like what McNair is doing & hopes he keeps on keeping on.
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I never said I was smarter than Smith. (Please don't put words in my mouth) I did say Smith isn't very good at his job. Hope you enjoy more 2-14's in the future using McNair's vision.

Hopefully Bob McNair/Cal has learned something and will let BOB run the org like Kraft lets Belichick run the Pats org.
 
leebigeztx said:
The consultant,dan reeves told mcnair to draft young and trade carr. You pay a consultant couple of 100k to evaluate your team,he advised you on something and he found a guy who told him something he wanted to hear.
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It's the McNair way.

See: Kris Brown

If McNair likes you your in. This is the reason I believe Manziel stand a good chance of being drafted at 1-1. They run in the same circles and McNair has a fetish for Aggies.

Hopefully BOB gets to make the draft call.
 
thunderkyss said:
You're not suggesting I said McNair doesn't get involved in football decisions are you?

If I were a billionaire & bought a football team, I'd probably be as involved as McNair, if not Jerry Jones. People like you think you know more than Rick Smith, why shouldn't McNair? Why is he so different, or you so different?

The first 4 years was a failure. Unlike you, McNair can't act like it didn't happen. Expecting us to be Super Bowl champs 8 years after such a failure is not very realistic. Still, the Texans had a shot. Maybe an outside shot, but our last three years was better than 10 teams.

& that's because of McNair & his involvement. The vision he defined, the standard he holds the Texans to.

Not up to your standard, I get it.

But I like what McNair is doing & hopes he keeps on keeping on.
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well said mate
 
leebigeztx said:
The consultant,dan reeves told mcnair to draft young and trade carr. You pay a consultant couple of 100k to evaluate your team,he advised you on something and he found a guy who told him something he wanted to hear.
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Another revision of history I see.....Reeves told McNair that the Texans could win with Carr. Reeves NEVER recommended to McNair that he should draft Vince Young. A little wishful thinking to go with your revision of history.
 
steelbtexan said:
I never said I was smarter than Smith. (Please don't put words in my mouth) I did say Smith isn't very good at his job. Hope you enjoy more 2-14's in the future using McNair's vision.

Hopefully Bob McNair/Cal has learned something and will let BOB run the org like Kraft lets Belichick run the Pats org.
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Early results suggest that BOB doesn't share Belichick's vision of the future. Two early examples that support this statement; Releasing Owen Daniels and re-signing Graham at 80% of Daniels salary. Keeping Daniels and letting him become a FA in 2015 would've likely resulted in a Compensatory pick in 2016. Not to mention that Graham ranked as one of the worst TE in the league last year.

Releasing Daniel Manning and signing two vet minimums and neither are close to being on the same level as Manning. Keeping Manning and letting him become a FA in 2015 would've likely resulted in a Compensatory pick in 2016.

Clearly what is in the best interest of the Texans is for McNair to hire a GM with full and complete control of football operations. This is NOT Rick Smith. Smith is a right hand to carry out instructions of McNair and O'Brien. Unfortunately, we are beginning to understand now that McNair is NOT likely to relinquish that kind of control to a real GM. It appears that Bob still has the mindset that he can buy a championship today in lieu of planning and preparing for a winner tomorrow.
 
Dan Reeves:
Well, let me say first of all that you never know about a draft after one year. Okay? It's two to three years, at least three years in my opinion, before you know how good of a draft you have had. When I came here, we looked at Vince Young because I felt like, having watched him, that we needed to look at him. Whether you had a David Carr or not, you had to evaluate the young man and see if this does fit in your picture. And basically what it came down to is I liked what I saw, and I also liked what I saw in David Carr.
But then it was, in my opinion, who ever came here as a head coach, for him to sit down, look at David Carr and evaluate him and say, you know, is this the guy I want? And that's exactly what they did. Gary Kubiak came in and felt comfortable with David Carr so then it eliminated the possibility of taking Vince Young. And I don't disagree with that at all. To me it's up to who you bring in as a head coach to make that evaluation.
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Yesterday on 610 McClain GUARANTEED that the Texans would under no circumstances pick Garoppolo. When asked for his source..........he essentially replied "Trust me, I know."
 
This class might not be great at the top but it has one of the largest group of 2nd tier QB's I can remember.
 
mussop said:
This class might not be great at the top but it has one of the largest group of 2nd tier QB's I can remember.
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I agree. One of these guys might be a franchise QB one day, but it's a long shot for all of them. We may only get 3 solid starters out of this class, but it's anybodies guess who those three will be. I've got my favorite. Three favorites & two additional likelies, but there's a bunch of guys who it could be. Garoppolo, Savage, Shaw, Fales, Smith.... who knows?
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Yesterday on 610 McClain GUARANTEED that the Texans would under no circumstances pick Garoppolo. When asked for his source..........he essentially replied "Trust me, I know."
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This is also the same guy who guaranteed the Texans would be taking a QB with #1, and yet, he has them taking Clowney in his latest mock.
 
Playoffs said:
Not necessarily, here's his take on Johnny: Boiler Room: QB Johnny Manziel and Why I Think of Ali
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I find it somewhat strange, for example, when in the Ali piece he mkes a major point concerning his "upright" style, then noting that's exactly what gets that style of RB injured. Then, he "baiting" aspect........he's not going to have time to play games with NFL Ds. Most of the video clips shown give him 4 or more seconds to deal with the D. I doubt that most NFL teams would play the formations I saw in these clips. His ability to do many of the things you see are dependent on believing that the NFL will play Manziel's game rather than force him to play theirs. I don't believe that will be the case. And if Manziel and his HC believe otherwise, I predict Manziel will become very familiar with the local sidelines and operating rooms.
 
Why this is a bad year to stake your reputation on a quarterback.

it is a torturous decision, as the coach of a quarterback-needy team told me. As a gm, if you take a quarterback in the first round, any of them, you’re going to go home and not sleep well that night. If you pass on a quarterback with some spellbinding tools-manziel, for instance-you’re going to go home and not sleep well that night, fearing what you’ve passed up.

The measuring for one such team, minnesota, begins today. The vikings begin eight days of final meetings to set their draft board this morning at the team facility south of minneapolis. And spielman knows that his job, and the job of his coaches and scouts, might well ride on the two- or three-year results of what they do on this draft weekend. Because this is the year the vikings should be in position to get their quarterback of the future.

Whomever that is.
...
“the torture part of it,’’ said rick spielman, the vikings’ gm, “is you see a player sitting there when you pick who you know can help you right away, a significant player at another position, an impact player as a rookie. Then you ask yourself, ‘how do we feel about our options at quarterback in the second or third round? Is it close? Is there a big separation? Or is it close?’ we’ve broken them down in al the ways we could think of. Analytically-measuring them against their five toughest opponents, indoor-versus-outdoor, by psychological testing, and it is such a mixed bag.

“that’s a big reason why we made it a high priority to sign matt cassel back. Every one of these quarterbacks … nothing is a sure thing. There’s no andrew luck, no peyton manning. It is such a mixed bag with each player-every one of them has positives, every one of them has negatives. And if that’s the way you end up feelings, why don’t you just wait till later in the draft, and take someone with the first pick you’re sure will help you right now?

“i agree with that coach, whoever it is. It is torturous this year.”
...

“ideally,’’ said spielman, “if we did pick a quarterback this year we would want to redshirt him anyway, and when he’d be ready to go, he’d play. But he’d probably use this year as a learning year. I can say that now, before our meetings, we’ll have the coaches and scouts speak, but if we are going to consider a quarterback at eight, i better have consensus in the building that this is our guy. We all better feel good about one guy.’’

i asked spielman about the pressure of picking a quarterback in a year when all of them have zits.

“there’s always pressure,’’ he said. “this year, there’s more.’’
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I think after the college season is over, the biggest difference maker for these guys is the personal interview they'll have with teams. Production on the field is definitely a big part of the equation, but how that player fits with your team ideology, whether that guy can grasp your offensive concepts, & whether you can spend 14+ hours a day with this guy....

I won't ever have the opportunity to sit down with each of these QBs so I can't really judge what kind of chemistry we might have/not have. The closest thing I've got, is John Gruden's QB camp. Sounds silly, I know. But if you're honest about how important a player's personality & understanding is to a franchise, it kind of makes sense.

I'm using Gruden's QB camp as my interview.

I've watched just about all of them & there have been some huge changes on my QB board & what I think about this QB class.

  1. McCarron
  2. Murray
  3. Manziel
  4. Bridgewater
  5. Mettenberger/Bortles

That was my list & since I thought I could get McCarron or Murray later in the draft, I was not interested in taking a QB first overall. Now:

  1. McCarron
  2. Carr
  3. Bortles
  4. Manziel
  5. Murray
  6. Mettenberger

I also believe there's good enough separation between the top 3 & the rest. I believe (& I know I am alone in this) McCarron, Carr, & Bortles will be the first three QBs taken in this draft.

I base my "grading" of these QBs on the "prototypical" franchise QB. The three at the top of the list have the prototypical size, Carr & Bortles have the arm talent & after listening to them on the QB camp, they all have a deep understanding of the game & a practical working knowledge of reading defenses, setting protections, & adjusting routes.

I still like McCarren the most because he played from that #1 spot for three years & did not disappoint. That's why Manziel is so high on my list. After his freshman season, he set the bar pretty dang high & played up to those expectations as a sophomore.

But I would not be surprised if the Texans go with Carr. He's a very mature player, has a really good understanding of a QBs responsibilities, & he had a lot of responsibilities on & off the field and he still performed like a champ.

Blake... I don't see him as an option for the #1 overall, but he's still more impressive than Bridgewater fans give him credit for. Size, athleticism, good decisions, accurate on the move..... my only knock on him is that he's the least experienced of the bunch & for his size, you'd think his arm would be stronger.

Unless someone falls under the spell that is Manziel, those are the first three QBs who will go in the first round.

& yes, Bridgewater has fallen off my list. Not to say that he isn't a good prospect. But... he doesn't have the size, he doesn't have the arm, he doesn't have the pedigree, he doesn't have a successful record against good competition, & his understanding of the game (his best trait) was a unicorn. Kids tough, I give him that.

Production in college football is like production in the preseason. It doesn't mean what you think it means, ask Case Keenum. It's only part of the puzzle, not the whole enchilada.
 
More and more I am finding myself taking Carr in the second and being happy with that.

Not sure on draft day he gets out of the first though.
 
kiwitexansfan said:
More and more I am finding myself taking Carr in the second and being happy with that.

Not sure on draft day he gets out of the first though.
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For the love of God NO!!!!!!!!!!!

If I have to see/hear Roger Carr again I will start watching college football exclusively.
 
steelbtexan said:
For the love of God NO!!!!!!!!!!!

If I have to see/hear Roger Carr again I will start watching college football exclusively.
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If it were me, & I thought about taking Carr, that would have been one of the questions I'd have already asked him. "How much involvement can we expect from the rest of your family?"

They probably did ask & Derek took it wrong (there is no question how much he loves his brother), "Oh yeah, you'll get two for the price of one. You'll get me, my brother, my dad, my son, David's kid.... you'll get the whole family."

& Maybe that's what took him off the Brown's list.
 
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