infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Did you read what bah was responding to?
And to state the obvious since it apparently needs to be said - Manziel is benefiting from Wilson's success in the NFL.
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Manziel
- Thread starter Wolf
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Did you read what bah was responding to?
And to state the obvious since it apparently needs to be said - Manziel is benefiting from Wilson's success in the NFL.
You've got to be kidding. There is no question who was the better college QB or nfl prospect. If Wilson was so great in college why didn't he get drafted sooner? Why wasn't he even considered a first round prospect. Hate on Manziel all you wNt but it's silly to suggest what you are saying.
If Wilson was coming out this year and did exactly what he did his career at Wisconsin, he would be a late second round pick at best.
Manziel is being considered for the number one overall pick. No contest.
Yes I know all about lambardi. It's interesting because he is such a Manziel fan and he's with our guys while the QB's are doing their drills.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Because of his height mostly, and a bit of concern about his size. There are a lot of scouts and draftniks who care more about prototypical size than gametape, and I think even moreso when it comes to picking a QB. Brees had always been the exception to the rule, Wilson doing well in the NFL has opened the door a little more for under 6 foot QBs. Hence the "Wilson will make JFF a lot of money" quotes that we have been hearing since the Super Bowl.
And I agree with all of that except the assumption that the only reason he wasn't considered a high first round pick was because of his height. And the assumption that the only reason Manziel is being considered for the first pick overall is because of Wilson's success. If that is what you are assuming.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Assumption, not even close. Wilson's height (which nobody is asserting was the "only reason") was the biggest reason he slid. For example:
Link
Wilson's success is also well documented to have benefited Manziel. Once again, not the "only" reason.
Take the two phenomenon - Wilson moved down due to height, and Manziel moved up due to Wilson's success - and remove them and it isn't unfair to opine they would be much closer to one another than the apparent draft disparity indicates, possibly even in direct competition.
Don't buy it but Fare enough. Take draft-ability out of the equation. Was Wilson ever even in the talks as The best player on college football? Was he even considered in the running for the heisman?
I guess a better more fair question would be, if he played the last two seasons, same season as Manziel, would he have been in the running for the heisman or considered one of the top QB's in this class?
Sorry don't see it. I love what he has accomplished in the nfl but that doesn't change who he was in college.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Wilson was a more effective and more efficient passer in college than Manziel. Anybody who saw the two play would agree, unless they had some sort of bias. Wilson also played with a much less talented roster than Manziel. Mussop has clearly demonstrated a bias toward Manziel during this draft cycle, so no surprise to hear his opinion.
Anyway, this is a rehash conversation, but that's basically what this thread has been for the last month or so.
Anyway, this is a rehash conversation, but that's basically what this thread has been for the last month or so.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Wilson received around 50 Heisman votes iirc.
His last three seasons are a portrait in efficiency. Set the all time rating record in college then became one of if not the only QB to start their career with two 100+ rating seasons.
BoB McNair?
Am I the only one that thinks Wilson is only a good QB on a great team who's got potential to get much better?
I honestly can't say what kind of prospect Wilson was before being drafted in the third round.
I do not know how much of Manziel's "success" or even being look at in the first round can be attributed to Wilson.
I don't believe a third rounder (Wilson) will vault to a first rounder (Manziel) because Wilson won the Super Bowl.
Johnny Manziel was on everybody's radar since he was a Heisman candidate as a freshman. People like watching him play. It's frigg'n exciting. Watching him was like watching Vick, Newton, or Young. Guys drafted as early as they were, not because they played in a pro system or have prototypical measurements, but because they were pretty damn exciting to watch.
If Manziel had run a 4.3, 4.4 forty, or had the size of Cam Newton or Vince Young, he'd have been a consensus top 5 pick (<--hyperbole). Whether Russell Wilson won the Super Bowl or not.
That doesn't mean Manziel was a better QB than Wilson, a better college football player, sure, but not necessarily a better QB.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
And when he was at NCState, all they did was throw the ball down the field to no name receivers. He was successful in a terrible situation with a coach that, in my opinion, was not good at all. His last year at NCState, Wilson was asked to throw the ball 40 times per game and run it 11 times per game. The play calling was absolutely horrific to watch.
You are the one that's biased. You don't think he's worthy of number one so you look to knock his game. I'm actually leaning towards taking Robinson first overall. I like Manziel but he scares the hell out of me. If Wilson were in this draft and you wouldn't want him number one either. Bet you would have Manziel rated higher though.
This crap about Wilson being such a great prospect is just that, crap. He had plenty of good traits but wasn't deemed worthy of a first or even a second round pick by all 32 teams and was passed again in the third round by 9 of those teams again. Manziel WILL be a high first round pick most assuredly a top ten pick. And it's not because Wilson paved the way for him. It's because he's a better prospect than Wilson was period.
BigBull
Rookie
That's the way it starts. Brady, Manning, Young (Steve, not Vince), Favre... Roethlisberger. Playing on pretty good teams allowed them to be better than they would have been had they played for a bad team.
Colts... think if they never had Harrison, Faulk, Edge, Saturday.... and a lot of other players. They went from Harrison to Wayne, Faulk to James..... Peyton helped them look better for sure, but they helped Peyton out too.
The Patriots were a play off team before Brady got there.
Aikman looked like crap till they got Irvin & Smith (a bunch of other too for sure).
Uh huh and Manziel won the heisman as a redshirt freshman.
Uh huh against lesser competition than Manziel faced.
Link
Negatives:
Is short and height limits his field vision at times. Limited drop-back production. Inconsistent ball placement. Will vacate the pocket prematurely. Locks on to receivers. Has made some questionable decisions late in games (see East Carolina and Virginia Tech 2010, Michigan State 2011). Is under contract with the Colorado Rockies, and his commitment to football needs to be evaluated.
Summary:
An instinctive, multisport athlete with a terrific work ethic and likable personality, Wilson has nearly everything you desire intangibly, including toughness, competitiveness and leadership. Never will be a prototypical dropback, pocket passer, as his height always will be a limiting factor, but he has the arm, legs and smarts to grow into an effective backup in a system where he can utilize play-action, rollouts, and improv skills to make plays. Versatile player who could even be sprinkled into the game plan on a weekly basis to take advantage of his dual-threat ability. Is the type of player you root for and want on your roster.
Sounds a lot like a Manziel only not as highly rated.
Nope.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
I happen to think Russell Wilson is the most overrated QB in the NFL right now.
It's not that he's not a good player, but he just isn't a risk taker during games. He's more prone to throw away the ball when he doesn't see anything open, or take off for the sidelines. That's what gets him such a great passer rating, but his QB rating doesn't tell the whole story. He's a great QB to have on a defense oriented team, because he won't lose games for you by turning the ball over, but he will leave a lot of points on the field by not getting the ball in the end zone. He's a good asset, but he's not a top 10 QB in the league, and I don't think he ever will be.
On the other side of the coin, JFF takes a lot of risks, with his arm and his legs. He's a gambler on the field, he loves to try to squeeze the ball into tight spaces, toss it up for his receivers, or take off and try to run for a long first down. Sometimes it works, and it makes for some great highlight reels, but sometimes it backfires and he ends up turning the ball over. That kind of playstyle will get you in trouble more often than not in the NFL, which is why I'm not too high on him this draft. I'm just a bit more conservative in what I want to see from a QB, and I don't think I would want to see JFF slinging it into double coverage on Sundays.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
One other thing you're not taking into account in why Wilson slid as far as he did is his departure in the middle of his college career to go play minor league baseball. Even though he came back to Wisconsin for 1 year after all that & had an outstanding season, scouts still weren't absolutely sure about his commitment to the game. No team would've spent a 1st or even 2nd on him without being absolutely sure he was committed to football.
his height by far though was the biggest hinderance in why he wasn't even looked at in the 1st or 2nd.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
I don't look to knock Manziel's game, the negatives are there in the game tape for everyone to see. I've commended him on his positives and pointed out his negatives. I see more negatives than positives as far as an NFL prospect.
You were the guy that posted:
Yeah, you aren't biased.
I loved Wilson when he was in college. I probably wouldn't have known enough to love his game if I weren't an ACC guy and had a chance to watch him play when there was little incentive to watch his team (NCState). Anyone could see that he, if he could overcome the height issue, was going to be an efficient passer.
Why aren't people all that concerned with Manziel's ability to overcome height, but were of Russell Wilson? Clearly, Wilson's success has had a very positive impact on Manziel's prospects. To not see that is strange.
I also don't get the whole "you wouldn't have wanted him at 1st overall" thing. Would anyone have taken him over Luck? I still wouldn't and I love Wilson. As far as this draft, I would definitely be interested in him over all the available QBs. Having said that, I saw him play at least a full season of games more than I have seen of Bridgewater, Bortles, and Manziel. So, naturally that opinion is going to be at least a little biased.
Anyway, explain to me why Manziel is a better prospect than Wilson? How is he a better passer than Wilson in his college days? I would love to hear that argument.
You just echoed my feelings lately. That's why I'm leaning to Robinson at 1.1. Build this team up then find the QB. This team just isn't as talented as people think. Would kap or Wilson have been this successful had they been drafted this year for this team? I don't see it.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
I think the baseball thing was also a big knock on Russell Wilson. If there was any question that he was going to the MLB instead of the NFL, then he immediately gets dropped off your board. There are only 7 rounds in the NFL, you gotta make your picks count, so prospects with dual-sport capability and the obvious interest in the other sport need to be scrutinized more. Clearly Wilson convinced an MLB team believe in his willingness to play baseball enough that they drafted him in the 4th round. That's a pretty high pick in a draft that lasts 50 rounds.
As a player, the MLB is much more lucrative due to the length of your career, and as a person it is much easier on your body. I think anyone with any concern for themselves and their family should choose the MLB and NBA over the NFL. It's really a no-brainer if you can compete at the top level of either sport. If I were a GM, I would be very concerned about fighting over a player who may go to the MLB, and I sure as hell wouldn't spend a 1st round pick unless I knew for certain he would choose my team over the Rockies.
If Wilson was coming out in THIS draft who would be the higher rated QB?
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
By who? Me? Wilson. By the guy you quoted in projecting Wilson as a potential career backup? Probably not Wilson.
By you? Manziel.
Btw, I will be interested to hear your explanation of how Manziel is a better prospect than Wilson.
I totally agree with all of this. However even without the baseball and height questions he would not be considered in the same class as Manziel as a prospect. JMO.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Wilson...i was high on him back then...not 1:1 overall high, but i liked him more than most...certainly liked him better than i like Manziel now.
What's to explain? At no point in Wilson's draft process was he ever rated as highly as Manziel. Higher rating = better prospect.
I'm sorry but I'm calling B.S. On this. You're telling me if he were In this draft he would be rated higher than Manziel?
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
If Manziel was coming out in the Luck, RG3 draft he wouldn't be in the same class as them and at best a 2nd rounder...it's all relative man.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
He probably wouldn't have been rated higher due to the hype around Manziel & the SEC, but anyone who paid attention to each prospect & not got caught up in the hype would've had him rated higher than Manziel.
Simply put, everything Manziel is good at, Wilson is as good at or better. Wilson was just as fast & quick, tremendously bigger hands than manziel... stronger arm than Manziel...he was a better pocket passer in college than Manziel & put up tremendous stats in a top notch conference...like Manziel.
but my response was more geared towards the question you posed to Texan Seminole. I read it as which would you have rated higher....read it wrong...my fault.
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
He certainly has a higher potential ceiling than Wilson. Everything Dutchrudder said about Wilson is true. Overrated. He's not exactly Trent Dilfer, but he is a not risky QB who will make mistakes for your team. And on a run and defense oriented team that's absolutely fine. We saw them ride that to a ring this year. Can't argue with Super Bowls.
Manziel is a playmaker, no question about it. He is however a massive risk taker. The question is, can he translate that playmaking ability into the NFL without committing turnovers all the time? If he can, championship. If he can't, bust. All it takes is one team to think the boom factor is worth the bust risk and take him in the top ten.
At this point Cleveland is looking for a miracle and a savior, so I can't think of a more fitting pick than Manziel.
bah007
Hall of Fame
If Wilson was in this class I would rate the top four like this: Bridgewater, Wilson, Bortles, Manziel.
Why?
I had Wilson rated as a 1st rounder and I'd have him rated higher this year. The only questions about Wilson were height, frame, and dedication to football.
His height wasn't an issue to me. Obviously I wouldn't mind if he had been taller but his height didn't affect his game. His line at Wisconsin was the tallest in the country and he still found passing lanes better than anyone else in the country. OL are so big and tall now that pretty much only a handful of QBs in the league can see over the tops of their heads. Everybody has to find the lane.
His frame was a legitimate question mark. Could he hold up against injury? This was pretty much the only knock I had on him.
His dedication to football wasn't an issue to me. He always showed up exactly when he said he was going to and outworked everybody. After his final season of baseball he said he was giving it up and focusing on football. I believed him so I struck this off the list.
Yes, by me. Not by people who use ESPN to rank prospects.
What are you talking about? This whole debate is over who is the better prospect / college player / QB. The question I posed was if Wilson were In this draft who would go higher?
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Saying that someone that is more risky with the ball automatically has a higher ceiling makes zero sense to me.
That's like saying, "hey that dude that is throwing all those picks, he's a risky high ceiling kid." Not saying that Manziel throws a high number of picks, just putting this thought process into perspective.
bah007
Hall of Fame
Those two are not necessarily the same thing, which is where you seem to be getting lost in the argument.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Lol, You keep throwing out this hypothetical about if Wilson was in this draft who would be rated higher...I simply threw a hypothetical right back at you...which was had Manziel come out in the same draft as Luck & RG3 he would've been an after thought secondary to those 2....he likely would've been regarded much less compared against those 2....regarded much less compared to what he is now & would've had next to no chance of going 1:2 overall much less in consideration for 1:1 like he is now.
Again, it's all relative to what scouts have to choose from.
How would you rank the 2012 class if Bridgewater, Bortles, & Manziel were in that draft?
Luck
Griffin
Tannehill
Weeden
Osweiller
Wilson
Foles
Cousins
Lindley
Coleman
Not really rated, but the top 10 drafted.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Luck
Griffin
Tannehill / Bridgewater
Wilson
Weeden / Bortles
Foles
Osweiller
Manziel
Cousins
Lindley
Coleman
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
That's not following the logic of my argument. I'm saying that because Manziel is a playmaker with the ball he has a higher ceiling than Wilson. He also has a very high bust factor, thanks to his risky style of play. Not the other way around, with Manziel being risky = high ceiling.
Risk = bust factor.
Playmaking ability = ceiling.
Small distinction I know, but one that has to be made in Manziel's case.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Outside of his running ability, which we have no figured out is at a lower speed than Wilson, what playmaking abilities does Manziel have that Wilson did not exhibit in college?
bah007
Hall of Fame
I had them rated this way:
Andrew Luck - #1
Robert Griffin - Top 3
Russell Wilson - 1st Round
Ryan Tannehill – 2nd Round
Nick Foles - 3rd Round
Brock Osweiler - 4th Round
Brandon Weeden – 4th Round
Kirk Cousins - 5th Round
Ryan Lindley - 6th Round
B.J. Coleman - UDFA
--------------------
I slide the top three from this class in here:
Andrew Luck
Robert Griffin
Teddy Bridgewater
Russell Wilson
Blake Bortles
Johnny Manziel
Ryan Tannehill
Nick Foles
Brock Osweiler
Brandon Weeden
Kirk Cousins
Ryan Lindley
B.J. Coleman
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
Duke game, Auburn game, and Alabama game. Can you point out three comparable games from Wilson? I'll do my homework and get back to you after last class of the day.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Quick research yields:
2009 terrible team outside of Wilson
NC State vs Florida State
Wilson: 20/30 349 Yards 5 TDs 2 INTs
8 carries 34 yards
NC State vs North Carolina
Wilson: 20/27 259 Yds 4 TDs 0 INTs
Both FSU and NC were ranked teams.
2011 at Wisconson
Pretty much any game.
Big Ten Championship game against Michigan State
Wilson: 17/24 187 Yards 3 TD 0 INTs
Would you consider that comparable?
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
Fair enough. Will do research and get back to you. Open to changing my mind on this, because Manziel is certainly not a certain thing.
Also, as far as the aforementioned 40 yard dash time goes... Manziel had faster 3 cone and 20 yard shuttle times. Interpret that how you will.
Texian
Hall of Fame
I'm not sure the Seahawk offense would get past the first playoff game without that Defense.
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
Agreed. Seahawk offense would have also failed in Houston were it not for Richard Sherman and the Seahawk defense.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
I think that Manziel has better running ability, but you also wonder if that style will continue in the NFL. He's not all that fast and unless he's shifty enough to avoid big hits, like Wilson, it will be a detriment to his game. I expect him to be able to evade people, but overall don't see his running prowess overall translating.
When looking at Wilson's stats, look at the difference between when he was on a crappy team (NC State) and when he was put on a better team with much better coaching (Wisconson).
I challenge anyone to provide a link from Wilson's draft year proving that they had Wilson rated as a high first round pick.
Also don't see why you would presume I use ESPN to rank prospects. I have been here for years doing this and have always gone against the media hype machine. In fact I really like Wilson a lot as a developmental QB. Which is what most of the better draftniks here did. Do not remember anyone claiming he was a high first round pick under any condition.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Hard to say, but I highly doubt they make it to the Super Bowl. Young players all over their offense, including Wilson.
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