infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I disagree but only in the sense that another priority took up more of his focus and time than football. The other priority could have been knitting. His failing was not solely on the field.
Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍
Greg Cossell Talks NFL Draft
- Thread starter Playoffs
- Start date
I disagree but only in the sense that another priority took up more of his focus and time than football. The other priority could have been knitting. His failing was not solely on the field.
If you don't mind me saying, I think you are mistaken about that BL. Thing is I'm from the KC area and remain a Chiefs fan (though certainly secondary to the Texans), but I peruse Chiefs MBs on occasion and from what I see they've really not been that happy with the Fisher choice.
Fact is I would say several OTs drafted last year including Lance Johnson, D.J. Kluker, and Justin Pugh have been better, but of course these guys have got a long ways to go before they've put in a career. Fluker, the giant former 'Bama OT and Chargers 11th overall in 2013, probably had the best rookie
season among OTs drafted in 2013. Of course Luke Joeckel, the former Aggie taken 1.2 by the Jags, had the misfortune of breaking his leg early in the year so his rookie season grade is incomplete ?
Several Chiefs fans remarked that Fisher clearly wasn't the BPA in the Draft and the Chiefs were probably guilty of reaching for him since OT was a big need position for the team. Perhaps something for Texans fans to keep in mind ?
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
Is Peyton Manning Christian? Denver Broncos Quarterback Prays Every Night & Before Each Game, Testifies Faith in Jesus Comes First
[IMGwidthsize=20]http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/Trophy.gif[/IMG]
Is Russell Wilson Christian? Seattle Seahawks Quarterback Testifies, 'Jesus Is Always There, He Will Never Leave, Forsake You'
[IMGwidthsize=20]http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/Trophy.gif[/IMG]
[IMGwidthsize=20]http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/Trophy.gif[/IMG] [IMGwidthsize=20]http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/Trophy.gif[/IMG] [IMGwidthsize=20]http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/Trophy.gif[/IMG]
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I think a key is how they handle a loss .
David could shrug off a loss like dandruff and say it's just a game .
Sure that makes sense. But, did his belief in God make him not be as committed to the game? Or was that just in his personality?
I just think that more time on the field and film room wouldn't have given David Carr the vision or the leadership skills he needed as a NFL QB. Either it's inside you or it isn't, and as it turned out it wasn't.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
He / they wanted the fame and glory but not the price it paid to be good . He wanted to be a family guy and work an 8 to 5 while going to work with his dad . That's what was important and the rest was just gravy .
Number19
Hall of Fame
This is an accurate description of my position. I never meant to imply that those of strong faith could not succeed. It only raises a question mark that needs to be addressed and answered. Infantrycak more articulately describes the concern with this statement.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Not a diehard Cheifs fan nor fan of Andy Reid, regardless from what I saw he looked pretty dang solid & Alex Smith needed improved protection to have the success he did like it or not. On the final big board I follow Eric Fisher was rated the #1 overall prospect coming out (ourlads). remember his combine one year ago & he really impressed the scouts in general too! In the end I think it was a very wise investment for that franchise, these big tackles don't grow on trees & if your starting a fresh QB in a new system its a damn good idea to follow, hint Texans
I'm a Clowney guy, but also love Robinson more than any of the QB's. If I had to pick a QB at 1-1 it would be Manziel. (Go big or go home)
If the Texans even think about making Derek Carr the face of the franchise they will be repeating history. (They probably will be repeating history if they pick any of the top 3 QB's. IMHO) Carr= me being done with the franchise, I cant put myself thru another 5-10 yrs of Derek/Roger Carr.
When you say 'big board", I gather you mean mock drafts and I know fisher's ratings shot up after the 2013 Senior Bowl last year, but I assure Chiefs fans "post" 2013 season aren't pleased with Fisher.Not a diehard Cheifs fan nor fan of Andy Reid, regardless from what I saw he looked pretty dang solid & Alex Smith needed improved protection to have the success he did like it or not. On the final big board I follow Eric Fisher was rated the #1 overall prospect coming out (ourlads). remember his combine one year ago & he really impressed the scouts in general too! In the end I think it was a very wise investment for that franchise, these big tackles don't grow on trees & if your starting a fresh QB in a new system its a damn good idea to follow, hint Texans
Never the less this Greg Robinson is a tremendous prospect from what I've read, but Duane Browns got several more years as our LT so don't see us using the
1.1 on a RT ?
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
No, they are different.
Big boards are player rankings independent of the draft.
Mock drafts are projections of which player the team with the current pick will select.
I've thought he was the top OT for awhile now. His upside is tremendous. He is one of the six I mentioned.
There were things this organization could have done to help David Carr more. They didn't. There were things David Carr could have done to help the Texans more. He didn't.
Drew Brees didn't care. He was where he was, they didn't have a lot of confidence in him, he did the best he could regardless. So good, on his second contract, he was signed to be a starter for another team.
Same thing with Matt Schaub (who went to that team that didn't help David, & did quite well). Not as good as Drew Brees, but better than David Carr.
I hear what you're saying and that's the "conventional wisdom" but I think it's stupid. There are two tackles that I'd pick over any of the QB prospects given how sucky the right side of our O-line was last year.
I'm not a draftnik but I do know that Scouts, Inc. and ESPN's McShay and others have Jake Matthews and Greg Robinson rated higher than any of the QBs.
Given that we have a dire need to bolster the O-line - or whichever QB we draft/sign will be running for his life - why would you NOT pick the guy who graded out 2nd (or 3rd) highest in this draft class when it fills that need???
Sometimes "conventional wisdom" is faulty.
Lets compare the OL's of each of the mentioned players. Compare the sacks total.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I'm curious, did you do that yourself? I ask because it shows how miserable Carr was at causing his own sacks.
2006 - 43 sacks
1 change on OL, vet Zach Wiegert to rookie Eric Winston.
2007 - 22 sacks
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Sack aren't all on ol. When a guy can't read a defense or run out of bounds behind the los,that's not ol fault. David Carr wasn't mentally ready for pro football. He didn't eat,breathe,live football which is what you have to be as an nfl qb. He was given a new life by kubes and he kept dropping his eyes or dumping the ball off. He went to carolina and was so bad,they called vinny off the couch to qb. He was quoted as saying he vinny watches a lot of film and his prep was amazing. After that,he just settled on being a backup until he called it quits.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
It's a legitimate question, but I think it can be answered with historic accuracy that it hasn't been a negative factor.
In fact, it might be helpful having someone whose faith helps keep them out of trouble other athletes seem to find in strip clubs at 2am.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I think Casserly was so discouraged with Carr , he didn't care . How else do you explain Victor Riley and Dave Ragone . Having said that Carr became almost untouchable because Bob McNair really liked him and his family .
A team has a #1 & #2 WR in it's starting lineup, just as the LT & RT are the #1 & #2 OTs respectively. You don't use the 1.1 on the #2 OT, the pick is just too valuable for a position that's not considered a premier position.
TexansFTW
Veteran
This is what we should do now I guess. Compare every prospect to Andrew Luck and when that requirement is not meant we draft BPA and address QB later and repeat the cycle the next year.
I know you are quoting Cosell BTW.
I have come to the conclusion that is the mindset of most that post here. Since there is no Andrew Luck in this draft, whom our biggest NFL rivals were able to get (don't think this doesn't play a big part in this perception) then everyone assumes that there is no QB worthy a first overall pick.
People's memory seems to only go far back as the 2012 draft, despite the median age of posters here being 40+. Andrew Luck was an aberration; a can't miss, sure thing, don't think twice prospect that is rarely seen in the NFL draft. The Colts drafted him, and it sucks that they had the chance to. While we don't have a chance and that there isn't a prospect of his level in this draft now that we have the first overall...but this is clouting too many peoples opinions.
There is no Andrew Luck in this draft, no...just like there isn't an Andrew Luck in 99% of the draft that have taken place in NFL history. Doesn't mean there isn't a player worthy of the first overall pick. Of course Andrew Luck would be the #1 prospect in this draft, as would he be in all but maybe 1 or 2 other drafts in modern NFL history.
There's no Andrew Luck this year, lets move on and select the best player that we can get and stop pretending this is a weak QB draft just because Andrew Luck reincarnated isn't in it.
bah007
Hall of Fame
The player who will add the biggest positive impact to your team should always be the pick. A lot of times the most talented player available is that guy, but sometimes he isn't.
That doesn't mean you always select a certain position first. But it does mean that sometimes a "less talented" player can be taken ahead of a "better" player because his addition is a bigger net gain for the team.
My preference right now would be, in order:
1. QB, Bridgewater - I see him as a potential franchise QB and we need one.
2. OLB, Mack - Many people would hate this pick but it would be a significant upgrade to our defense.
3. OT, Robinson - Many people also wouldn't be happy with this but it would fix the RT problem while also giving us a long term replacement for Brown whenever that time may come.
4. QB, Bortles - A project at QB who would need to sit for at least a year, but if O'Brien picks him I trust that he can be a franchise QB.
5. DE, Clowney - CND has raised significant concerns about his injury probability. I also view him as strictly a SDE in a 43. Any other system would not maximize his skill set.
6. QB, Manziel - I view him as a short term stop gap at QB. I cannot hate the pick because it addresses a significant team issue, but I am not convinced that Manziel will have long term NFL success. I believe that he will have a few good/great years and then we will be right back here.
That doesn't mean you always select a certain position first. But it does mean that sometimes a "less talented" player can be taken ahead of a "better" player because his addition is a bigger net gain for the team.
My preference right now would be, in order:
1. QB, Bridgewater - I see him as a potential franchise QB and we need one.
2. OLB, Mack - Many people would hate this pick but it would be a significant upgrade to our defense.
3. OT, Robinson - Many people also wouldn't be happy with this but it would fix the RT problem while also giving us a long term replacement for Brown whenever that time may come.
4. QB, Bortles - A project at QB who would need to sit for at least a year, but if O'Brien picks him I trust that he can be a franchise QB.
5. DE, Clowney - CND has raised significant concerns about his injury probability. I also view him as strictly a SDE in a 43. Any other system would not maximize his skill set.
6. QB, Manziel - I view him as a short term stop gap at QB. I cannot hate the pick because it addresses a significant team issue, but I am not convinced that Manziel will have long term NFL success. I believe that he will have a few good/great years and then we will be right back here.
TexansFTW
Veteran
Let me see if I am getting this...
So for example a team that just went 2-14 because of inept QB play might want to draft a QB that is slotted at #3-6 over the guy slotted at #1 because there is more of a need for the team?
Well said bro. 3 Andrew Lucks in the last 31 years now. You read that right, Elway was 31 years ago. 1/32 (teams in the draft) x 3/31 (QBs Like Luck in years) = 3/992 or ~ 1/331 is your probability of drafting the next Andrew Luck. How often do yall win the lottery?
bah007
Hall of Fame
Exactly. Let's say the top 3 talents are a WR, OT, and DE. And the #4 talent is a QB.
You may rate those guys on talent as:
1. DE
2. WR
3. OT
4. QB
But depending on the design of your team, they may rate on your board as:
1. QB
2. OT
3. DE
4. WR
You have to be able to see the difference between talent and impact, if there is one. Case in point, I think Clowney is the most talented player in this draft. But if I were the Texans I would not draft him with the #1 pick because I believe there are other players available who will be of greater benefit to the team, despite not being as talented.
drs23
Veteran
Exactly. Don't know why that fact seems so difficult to grasp.
kiwitexansfan
Hall of Fame
Bah007, why do you see Manziel only being short term?
Injury? League works him out?
Injury? League works him out?
bah007
Hall of Fame
The second one mostly but the first one is definitely possible with his style of play.
I don't think his skill set projects very well to the NFL.
Lot of us use the term "positional-value" instead of impact. That's understood, same concept, just different term or label.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Positional-value relates to specific positional characteristics only. QB being the most valued, then it gets muddled, take your pick CB, LT, DE, OLB. Impact is different because its independent of position. Could mean biggest hole on this team, like RT was last season or player who could become a franchise player, like JJ Watt did three years ago.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
nephew of Howard Cosell, widely regarded by NFL insiders/people into the draft here, as one of the most knowledgeable and trusted football draft analysts.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
So he's overcome his family heritage? Howard was a joke who thought he was a genius.
Beg to differ, but it would seem to me that " positional characteristics " would relate to the characteristics of the position, while positional-value would relate to the value of the position. i.e., value here is synonymous with impact.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Are you serious with this? He was an asshat, but he was a genius when it came to commentating. Do a little research before barking out the arse
Texian
Hall of Fame
Greg Cosell has been around and is well respected. Commented on Dan Patrick he watches over 40 hours a week of film of college and pro players.
I still don't know who this "Nuff" fellow is. Nuff is always trying to get quoted, Nuff said this, Nuff said that but in the end Nuff really never says anything.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
My research was listening to that idiot with the overinflated ego from the start of Monday Night Football until his last broadcast. I never believed he was anything more than a lawyer with a psychological problem (Superiority Complex) who lucked into a job on Monday Nights. (He must have known someone to get the job-probably someone who owed his former boss a favor and got him out of his hair.)
He was only a Genius in his own mind and those crazy enough to believe him.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Poor research
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Feel free to disagree with my analysis, but don't question the research. I was there and have no need to look for the tainted opinions of others.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
What is it with people not looking at ages? Marshall and Texian love to make "I was there" "you're too young to remember" posts when it makes no sense.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
I don't think he meant it in the sense of him actually being hurt but rather in the sense that he'll be bottled up and really not all that great. Basically saying that the Manziel you saw in those games will be much more the norm for him in the NFL than what you saw of him in other games.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Direct observation is as valid as researching the opinion of others and is actually better as a contemporary primary source rather than a secondary one. It makes all the sense in the world. Even if both observers are primary sources and disagree, it is better than using secondary sources.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Missed the point which was HouTex and I are old enough to have seen Cossall.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
I agree, although I have not heard Cosell acknowledge Manziel's injury status in those games -- which some supporters bemoan.
And agree the book on Manziel will be to contain him in the pocket and have your big bodies get their hands up to disturb his sightlines. Counter will be moving pockets, varied rollouts, etc.
Manziel's learning curve, according to Cosell, will be about executing called plays. NFL OC's do not like it when their QBs freelance. I think he's going to have to stop running out of the back of the pocket and limit his scrambling in general as defenses are too fast for him to get away with that. He'll get RG3'd. Should make for great drama.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Some people call it wisdom.....
FYI - I was sitting back minding my own business when you decided to call me out on this one, so here I am.
I was there for the first and last Cossell broadcast, it was basically a love-hate relationship with the fans.....(for those to young to remember).
I'm only a few years younger than you geezers & I only vaguely remember what y'all are talking about.
Sorry..... yeah, I remember Cossell. Don't remember them changing the drinking age..... what are we talking about again?