Clowney, then what?

[Texecutioner]

I pretty much agree with this entire post (which scares me because we so often don't see eye-to-eye) but I wanted to piggy-back on this thought.

Every year, there's a Vernon Gholston, Adam Curry, Harvey, Okoye, Gaines Adams, etc. These guys have insane numbers and look like they're going to be absolute beasts.

And why is it that people want to ignore the history behind these types of guys? Hell, we see these beastly guys go into the draft every season and get picked in the top 15. So many of them fail to become any more than average players. Every single one of the guys you mentioned had all of the abilities in the world to become world beaters for their teams, but they simply didn't. And why is that? You said it right here below.

What separates most of these guys from someone like a Watt, a Justin Houston, a Jared Allen, is that motor, that determination.

The motor is the most important attribute for a pass rusher. Things aren't going to come easy on every play in the NFL, and you've either got that drive to maneuver through and around guys by any means necessary or you don't. And many guys won't ever develop that drive when they are already paid a lot of money out the gate.

I saw more drive and determination in Mario Williams' in his final college season... and he didn't seem to have a lot.

So do I, and I hated the Mario Williams pick. When I read the scout reports and saw how his stats were all compiled from like 3 games in his final season, he had "lazy" written all over him. He proved it every season for the Texans as well even when he had pretty good numbers. I don't need the guy that has 15 plus sacks every season. I want the guy that is like a wild bore on every play disrupting the pocket, stopping the run, and exhausting Olineman. Watt's numbers were down somewhat this season, but I don't think he had a bad year. I felt like he was great. He was all over the place and was a major factor due to his non stop motor.

 

[JB]

I'm not interested at all in any player whose motor is in question with the first pick. I want some one who eats sleeps and dreams football. Someone who wants to and has the drive to be the best player in football.

 

[Texecutioner]

I'm not interested at all in any player whose motor is in question with the first pick. I want some one who eats sleeps and dreams football. Someone who wants to and has the drive to be the best player in football.

Look no further than the guy in your sig there buddy.


And we didn't need a top draft pick to get him. The Texans have found several great players in the mid first round. With the #1 pick I don't want question marks at positions where we can't miss picks. QB will always have certain concerns and questions unless it's the rare Andrew Luck type of player on paper which only comes around every ten years or so. JJ Watt is every bit the professional that you dream about adding to your team on draft day. JJ didn't have all of the best eye popping measurables, but he had an unquestionable motor and work ethic from everything that was said and written about him. They compared him to Kyle Vanden Bosch from Tennessee I remember which wasn't a bad guy to be compared to, but Watt is 100 times the player Kyle ever was. Watt could definitely use some help, but he needs a guy that has a motor that is unstoppable as his is.

 

[leebigeztx]

Look no further than the guy in your sig there buddy.


And we didn't need a top draft pick to get him. The Texans have found several great players in the mid first round. With the #1 pick I don't want question marks at positions where we can't miss picks. QB will always have certain concerns and questions unless it's the rare Andrew Luck type of player on paper which only comes around every ten years or so. JJ Watt is every bit the professional that you dream about adding to your team on draft day. JJ didn't have all of the best eye popping measurables, but he had an unquestionable motor and work ethic from everything that was said and written about him. They compared him to Kyle Vanden Bosch from Tennessee I remember which wasn't a bad guy to be compared to, but Watt is 100 times the player Kyle ever was. Watt could definitely use some help, but he needs a guy that has a motor that is unstoppable as his is.

I agree. Dee Ford,Vic Beasley,Markus Smith are all top flight pass rushers. The steelers haven't used a high pick on a rushers until this yr with jarvis.

As I posted b4, the double-triple teaming of clowney was a myth. As stated b4, andray bruce, the johnson kid in cincy,those 6'6 specimens have been busts just as often despite the physical traits. Meanwhile,Dumervill,freeney,mathis,and guys like that's have been excellent pass rushers. Also noted,the motor. As a rushers getting after the qb, relentless should be your middle name. If its not, you're gonna be up and down.

 

[JB]

Look no further than the guy in your sig there buddy.

Exactly!

 

[Uncle Rico]

Trent Murphy from Stanford would be a better fit opposite Watt.

 

[matts290]

Trent Murphy from Stanford would be a better fit opposite Watt.

What? No way, Murphy is falling in my eyes, he has been struggling to play DE in the Senior Bowl and I think he has a hard time finding a place in the NFL; too small to play DE and too slow to play OLB.

You guys are way underselling Clowney. Yes he has questions about his work ethic/motor, but he is not just another 6"6 guy you see every draft; he is a once in a generation player. No he may not have the motor of JJ Watt, but few players do just as few players have the pure athletic ability of Clowney.

 

[Marshall]

What? No way, Murphy is falling in my eyes, he has been struggling to play DE in the Senior Bowl and I think he has a hard time finding a place in the NFL; too small to play DE and too slow to play OLB.

You guys are way underselling Clowney. Yes he has questions about his work ethic/motor, but he is not just another 6"6 guy you see every draft; he is a once in a generation player. No he may not have the motor of JJ Watt, but few players do just as few players have the pure athletic ability of Clowney.

The hype just sounds so familiar. i think I've heard it all before. A gifted once in a generation athlete...without a motor...who tended to disappoint...Who could I be thinking of?

 

[infantrycak]

You guys are way underselling Clowney. Yes he has questions about his work ethic/motor, but he is not just another 6"6 guy you see every draft; he is a once in a generation player. No he may not have the motor of JJ Watt, but few players do just as few players have the pure athletic ability of Clowney.

And you are ignoring the injury issue.

 

[matts290]

And you are ignoring the injury issue.

No I'm not, just simply stating that Clowney is not just your run of the mill high round DE prospect.

 

[Corrosion]

Trent Murphy from Stanford would be a better fit opposite Watt.

I have been high on Murphy for a while .... He's a motor guy like Watt with good size & skills .... who you might be able to get at the tail end of the first , maybe top of the second .... has no character nor injury concerns.
If you are able to make a trade with Cleveland .... and take a QB with the #4 pick , he's a candidate for #26.

 

[mussop]

I have been high on Murphy for a while .... He's a motor guy like Watt with good size & skills .... who you might be able to get at the tail end of the first , maybe top of the second .... has no character nor injury concerns.
If you are able to make a trade with Cleveland .... and take a QB with the #4 pick , he's a candidate for #26.

After the senior bowl he might not get drafted until the later rounds. He was terrible. It's looking like it's going to follow in the footsteps of Chase Thomas.

 

[Corrosion]

No I'm not, just simply stating that Clowney is not just your run of the mill high round DE prospect.

Nope , he's not.


Very few guy's we talk about taking at 1:1 have his character concerns.

None of the guy's we talk about year in and year out taking at 1:1 have injury concerns - NONE.

This guy has both ....

 

[mussop]

Nope , he's not.


Very few guy's we talk about taking at 1:1 have his character concerns.

None of the guy's we talk about year in and year out taking at 1:1 have injury concerns - NONE.

This guy has both ....

And yet he still considered worthy of the number one pick by most professional scouts.

 

[matts290]

Nope , he's not.


Very few guy's we talk about taking at 1:1 have his character concerns.

None of the guy's we talk about year in and year out taking at 1:1 have injury concerns - NONE.

This guy has both ....

You aren't seeing my point sir. Look, I don't really want Clowney at 1.1 (for above reasons), but to deny that talent and ability wise he isn't one of the best defensive prospects we have seen in a decade is blind. All I was addressing was posters mentioning how they see a really athletic DE player in every draft, and I just contended that he is more than that (ability wise)

If there wasn't the obvious character/motivation question marks, then I think he would be a fairly unanimous pick at 1.1.

 

[JB]

Geez, stop being so dense. Look, I don't really want Clowney at 1.1 (for above reasons), but to deny that talent and ability wise he isn't one of the best defensive prospects we have seen in a decade is blind. All I was addressing was posters mentioning how they see a really athletic DE player in every draft, and I just contended that he is more than that (ability wise)

If there wasn't the obvious character/motivation question marks, then I think he would be a fairly unanimous pick at 1.1.

Do you have some undying need to insult everyone that doesn't agree with you?

 

[matts290]

Do you have some undying need to insult everyone that doesn't agree with you?

Not at all, I wasn't aware calling someone dense was really an insult, plus he doesn't disagree with me really...besides, I am far from the only person wielding insults on this forum, it comes with the territory of this thing we call the internet.

 

[mussop]

Not at all, I wasn't aware calling someone dense was really an insult, plus he doesn't disagree with me really...besides, I am far from the only person wielding insults on this forum, it comes with the territory of this thing we call the internet.

Seriously? You don't think calling someone dense is an insult?

 

[matts290]

Seriously? You don't think calling someone dense is an insult?

I said he was being dense, as in not seeing the point I was trying to make. Ok sure maybe I insulted him, maybe he can challenge me to a duel and we can settle it on the streets. And look who is talking mr mussop, you and bhs had quite the cat fight over Brett Kollman earlier; I am quite sure some insults of more severity were thrown around...

 

[Marshall]

I said he was being dense, as in not seeing the point I was trying to make. Ok sure maybe I insulted him, maybe he can challenge me to a duel and we can settle it on the streets. And look who is talking mr mussop, you and bhs had quite the cat fight over Brett Kollman earlier; I am quite sure some insults of more severity were thrown around...

Sometimes the difference between an insult and an observation becomes blurred. I find it happens often when dealing with Pro Big Government liberal progressives and mockers and scoffers of Christians.

I probably cross the line in the eyes of those types while thinking it is merely an observation. I know I think they cross the line at times when they probably don't think they've done it.

It requires a lot of forgiveness and a thick skin to stick around without becoming pablum. I have the advantage of forgetfulness.

 

[mussop]

I said he was being dense, as in not seeing the point I was trying to make. Ok sure maybe I insulted him, maybe he can challenge me to a duel and we can settle it on the streets. And look who is talking mr mussop, you and bhs had quite the cat fight over Brett Kollman earlier; I am quite sure some insults of more severity were thrown around...

Yep he started with that crap and all I did was repeat what he said back to him. He never really caught on. I guess he was being dense.

 

[Texecutioner]

You aren't seeing my point sir. Look, I don't really want Clowney at 1.1 (for above reasons), but to deny that talent and ability wise he isn't one of the best defensive prospects we have seen in a decade is blind. All I was addressing was posters mentioning how they see a really athletic DE player in every draft, and I just contended that he is more than that (ability wise)

If there wasn't the obvious character/motivation question marks, then I think he would be a fairly unanimous pick at 1.1.

No he really isn't. He is very talented yes, but he isn't some anomoly that we haven't ever seen before in the draft. He is a large athletic pass rusher with the types of measurables we do see in every draft. Actually, he has less moves than most of the guys I've seen in other drafts and isn't as versatile of a player.

The funny things is that if Watt was in this draft, you and all of these other folks that listen to ESPN would call anyone crazy if they suggested to pick Watt instead of Clowney. Clowney is just the flavor of the year by the draft analysts. And because of the extra hype he will most likely be a bust in my opinion. Especially when he has already bought into his own hype.

 

[matts290]

No he really isn't. He is very talented yes, but he isn't some anomoly that we haven't ever seen before in the draft. He is a large athletic pass rusher with the types of measurables we do see in every draft. Actually, he has less moves than most of the guys I've seen in other drafts and isn't as versatile of a player.

The funny things is that if Watt was in this draft, you and all of these other folks that listen to ESPN would call anyone crazy if they suggested to pick Watt instead of Clowney. Clowney is just the flavor of the year by the draft analysts. And because of the extra hype he will most likely be a bust in my opinion. Especially when he has already bought into his own hype.

Again, I really think you are underselling his natural and physical abilities short as well as his measurables...the latter will be answered for sure come combine time.

At 6"6, 270 he reportedly ran a sub 4.5 40 time which is insane; of course this is all just reports from scouts watching him at workouts, but we will know for sure come combine time. If I were a betting man I would take the under on a 4.5 40 time.

If his straight line speed doesn't impress you, pay attention to the great first step quickness and his uncanny ability to turn his speed into power when bull rushing a lineman. He is very flexible too considering his size and strength, and his massive wingspan makes his run stopping ability through the roof.

I really can't think of a DE or OLB prospect that compares to him in recent history; Julius Peppers is probably the last guy to have his sort of raw ability.

But of course, he may very well be lazy and unmotivated so all this natural skill could all be a waste. I agree that these questions are a very valid concern and keep him from being any sort of lock at 1.1. Clowney is personally not my pick at first overall, but if we were to get him I couldn't help but be excited for his massive potential.

 

[Uncle Rico]

So because Murphy hasnt left his imprint on the all star game he is in he's now all of a sudden a lesser talent? Thats funny to me.

23.5 tackles for loss
15 sacks
6 passes broken up

Like another poster mentioned you wont have to coax or coach this guy and highly doubt he'll ever need to be bailed out from jail.

Murphy on one end, Watt on the other? Yes please.

 

[mussop]

So because Murphy hasnt left his imprint on the all star game he is in he's now all of a sudden a lesser talent? Thats funny to me.

23.5 tackles for loss
15 sacks
6 passes broken up

Like another poster mentioned you wont have to coax or coach this guy and highly doubt he'll ever need to be bailed out from jail.

Murphy on one end, Watt on the other? Yes please.

Stats don't mean doodly. He just blew a huge opportunity to impress nfl gms and he blew it. He's looking like another one of those great college players who's game doesn't translate to the big leagues. And if you think he would be better next to watt than Clowney you're on crack.

 

[Corrosion]

You aren't seeing my point sir. Look, I don't really want Clowney at 1.1 (for above reasons), but to deny that talent and ability wise he isn't one of the best defensive prospects we have seen in a decade is blind. All I was addressing was posters mentioning how they see a really athletic DE player in every draft, and I just contended that he is more than that (ability wise)

If there wasn't the obvious character/motivation question marks, then I think he would be a fairly unanimous pick at 1.1.

For you to tell me that he's one of the best defensive talents in a decade is .... silly.

If he was so great he'd have sack and TFL numbers that would back up your assertion .... rather he has the numbers of some scrub who ends up an UDFA (3 sacks for the season!?). That's not to say he's a scrub UDFA ....

He can measure off the charts , but if it doesn't translate to the football field .... he doesn't pass the eyeball test.


I think people saw that one sports center highlight and .... that was enough for them.


Injury Check'

Motivation issues Check

Character concerns Check


Number one pick ?? .... with all those questions ?!



Sh!t I'd rather draft Johnny Football @ #1 than this clown .... at least you know he doesn't come with motivation & injury concerns .... It would be less of a mistake.

 

[bhsman]

All I'm reading is "I don't watch the tape, I just read media headlines."

EDIT: The Mario comparisons alone are straight-up horsehockey; Mario had no move besides the bullrush. By this year Clowney has already mastered the bull rush AND the swim move. Directly comparing the two as anything other than freakish athletes - especially if you want to talk about effort - is just being lazy.

Yep he started with that crap and all I did was repeat what he said back to him. He never really caught on. I guess he was being dense.

EDIT: Even in another thread, still waiting for you to respond to matt290's detailing of Kollmann's breakdown, you big baby.

 

[matts290]

For you to tell me that he's one of the best defensive talents in a decade is .... silly.

If he was so great he'd have sack and TFL numbers that would back up your assertion .... rather he has the numbers of some scrub who ends up an UDFA (3 sacks for the season!?). That's not to say he's a scrub UDFA ....

He can measure off the charts , but if it doesn't translate to the football field .... he doesn't pass the eyeball test.


I think people saw that one sports center highlight and .... that was enough for them.


Injury Check'

Motivation issues Check

Character concerns Check


Number one pick ?? .... with all those questions ?!



Sh!t I'd rather draft Johnny Football @ #1 than this clown .... at least you know he doesn't come with motivation & injury concerns .... It would be less of a mistake.

Please, tell me what prospect in recent memory has more natural ability than Jadeveon Clowney? Also stats in college for a DE can be very misleading, he missed a couple games this year and played with minor injuries throughout the season and of course appeared at times to be disinterested in the game. Obviously his Jr year raised many questions of his motivation and desire to win/play for his teammates.

Once again, I am not denying that he has 1. Injury concerns 2. Motivation issues 3. Character concerns. These these things keep him from being a surefire first overall pick...

But there is no doubt he is the best talent in this draft, and just about every scout or industry man will tell you the same.

People act like Clowney was some no heard of guy until that big sports center play, which is false and shows how little some people actually follow football. Clowney has been the big man on campus since he was 16. He was one of the most heavily recruited prospects of all time, the unanimous #1 guy of his recruiting class, and got non stop coverage from day 1 at South Carolina. All of this has surely gotten to his head though, and it shows on the field with his effort.

Clowney is not my first choice either, I have a couple other guys I prefer over him at 1.1. But the reality is there is a chance we do take him first, and there is still a ton of time for that decision to be made. So keep an open mind and don't denounce every prospect that isn't "your guy"

 

[The Pencil Neck]

I can only judge by what my eyes have seen in the couple of games of his I've watched. And what I see is: no motor.

That's not regurgitating someone else's opinion. That's me watching him play.

And, yes, I can draw comparisons to Mario Williams. Why? Because he was another "can't miss, once in a lifetime athletic talent" who had questions about his motor. Just because you compare Person A to Person B doesn't mean you're saying Person A and Person B are the same person in eveyr particular facet or that you're even putting them at the same level. And when I look at the tape of those two guys coming out of college, I see two guys who aren't extremely motivated. Clowney could be a master of every move ever known to man but it doesn't make a difference if his head isn't in the game.

Clowney might go on to be the next Jared Allen (who was a 4th round pick) and someone might be able to light a fire under his ass and get him to focus on what he should be focusing on. But of the games I've seen, I haven't seen a sure-fire, can't-miss 1-1 pick.

 

[matts290]

I can only judge by what my eyes have seen in the couple of games of his I've watched. And what I see is: no motor.

That's not regurgitating someone else's opinion. That's me watching him play.

And, yes, I can draw comparisons to Mario Williams. Why? Because he was another "can't miss, once in a lifetime athletic talent" who had questions about his motor. Just because you compare Person A to Person B doesn't mean you're saying Person A and Person B are the same person in eveyr particular facet or that you're even putting them at the same level. And when I look at the tape of those two guys coming out of college, I see two guys who aren't extremely motivated. Clowney could be a master of every move ever known to man but it doesn't make a difference if his head isn't in the game.

Clowney might go on to be the next Jared Allen (who was a 4th round pick) and someone might be able to light a fire under his ass and get him to focus on what he should be focusing on. But of the games I've seen, I haven't seen a sure-fire, can't-miss 1-1 pick.

I totally agree, he is no way a sure fire 1.1 pick...far from it. If he had a high motor and shown notable better character and work ethic over the last year, I think this thread would probably be 1/3 it's size an we would be more focused at discussing shot he best QB is available to us at 2.33

 

[mussop]

Please, tell me what prospect in recent memory has more natural ability than Jadeveon Clowney? Also stats in college for a DE can be very misleading, he missed a couple games this year and played with minor injuries throughout the season and of course appeared at times to be disinterested in the game. Obviously his Jr year raised many questions of his motivation and desire to win/play for his teammates.

Once again, I am not denying that he has 1. Injury concerns 2. Motivation issues 3. Character concerns. These these things keep him from being a surefire first overall pick...

But there is no doubt he is the best talent in this draft, and just about every scout or industry man will tell you the same.

People act like Clowney was some no heard of guy until that big sports center play, which is false and shows how little some people actually follow football. Clowney has been the big man on campus since he was 16. He was one of the most heavily recruited prospects of all time, the unanimous #1 guy of his recruiting class, and got non stop coverage from day 1 at South Carolina. All of this has surely gotten to his head though, and it shows on the field with his effort.

Clowney is not my first choice either, I have a couple other guys I prefer over him at 1.1. But the reality is there is a chance we do take him first, and there is still a ton of time for that decision to be made. So keep an open mind and don't denounce every prospect that isn't "your guy"

Get used to it. Say anything positive at all about anyone and you are labeled a homer or lover or (insert name) fanboy. The criticism of the top players around here is ridiculous. There's not much objectivity around here anymore. Most have their minds made up on who they want and you better not say anything negative about them no matter how legitimate a concern it is. And you better not say anything positive about any of the other top prospects either. Because if it's not their guy they are going to blow up and make ridiculous comments like the one above.


It's like all day here.

I like things about all four of the top players, Clowney, Manziel, Bortles and Bridgewater. There is no clear cut favorite. They all have flaws and that is what makes all of them worth the number one pick if it's deemed they are a good fit by our coaches, scouts and GM.

No matter who we pick there is going to be some seriously unhappy people around here. Not me! There is nothing I can do to change what is going to happen so **** it! I'm going to sit back and enjoy this ride.



Unless they don't pick one of those four!!!! Then I'm going to be pissed!!!!

 

[infantrycak]

Get used to it. Say anything positive at all about anyone and you are labeled a homer or lover or (insert name) fanboy. The criticism of the top players around here is ridiculous. There's not much objectivity around here anymore. Most have their minds made up on who they want and you better not say anything negative about them no matter how legitimate a concern it is. And you better not say anything positive about any of the other top prospects either. Because if it's not their guy they are going to blow up and make ridiculous comments like the one above.


It's like all day here.

Characterizing the MB on the conduct of a handful is incorrect.

 

[bhsman]

I can only judge by what my eyes have seen in the couple of games of his I've watched. And what I see is: no motor.

Alright, tell me the game, then.

Down/distance and time left, while you're at it.

 

[infantrycak]

Alright, tell me the game, then.

Down/distance and time left, while you're at it.

These kind of pop quiz requests really serve no purpose.

Not everyone has every game available, nor the time and inclination to re-watch to find example plays which inevitably will then only be rejected anyway.

It's comes across as internet bravado. JMO, carry on.

 

[bhsman]

These kind of pop quiz requests really serve no purpose.

Not everyone has every game available, nor the time and inclination to re-watch to find example plays which inevitably will then only be rejected anyway.

When I was called out on using the double team 'excuse', I did an individual study of Clowney's UNC and Tennessee games from this year to point out when it did, in fact, happen. If someone wants to throw out some worthless, ephemeral statement like 'Oh, he has no motor', by all means, but not without backing it up when asked.

I can point to the play where Clowney is tripped up after immediately launching into the backfield. Tennessee ran the ball away from him anyways, and Clowney chased after the carrier on all fours before getting to his feet. The motor argument is stupid and evidence that people in this fandom are too scarred by the Mario Williams experience to not have it color their perspective of any athletic pass-rusher.

 

[infantrycak]

When I was called out on using the double team 'excuse', I did an individual study of Clowney's UNC and Tennessee games from this year to point out when it did, in fact, happen. If someone wants to throw out some worthless, ephemeral statement like 'Oh, he has no motor', by all means, but not without backing it up when asked.

And what did that devolve into? - an argument over what's a double team. No purpose was served.

You attempting to back up your own assertions = cool.

You attempting to demand a specific playlist as some sort of qualification for having an opinion = not cool, but you're free to do so.

 

[bhsman]

And what did that devolve into? - an argument over what's a double team. No purpose was served.

And I tried to differentiate between getting help from the guard, getting chipped by the TE/RB, or a straight-up double team. The point was still that Clowney got a LOT of excess attention and couldn't be left 1v1, and this was with the team running away from him.

You attempting to back up your own assertions = cool.

You attempting to demand a specific playlist as some sort of qualification for having an opinion = not cool, but you're free to do so.

Thank you for the praise, but I guess my point is more along the lines of: if you're going to assert something like the 'effort' or 'motor' argument, BACK IT UP. It's just lazily thrown about and people regurgitate it without doing any research, either.

The truth is that it's frustrating to try and back your argument up with analysis and some bum will just go "Uh well MARIO WILLIAMS, see, so therefore 3 sacks = no motor/motivation problems." It'd be funny that people who throw out the laziness argument are, well, being lazy, if it wasn't so pervasive.

 

[infantrycak]

Thank you for the praise, but I guess my point is more along the lines of: if you're going to assert something like the 'effort' or 'motor' argument, BACK IT UP. It's just lazily thrown about and people regurgitate it without doing any research, either.

There is nothing lazy in not wanting to play tape battles on every opinion. I watch lots of football but I don't record everything and I'm not going to go spend hours re-watching games just to have an opinion here especially when experience shows it is a wasted effort. eg. I thought Tajh Boyd had horribly erratic drop-backs and footwork today but I have no inclination to go watch the game over to specify plays to "prove" it. Failing to do so doesn't mean I am regurgitating or not doing any research.

I'm not attacking you or telling you to change anything. Just my opinion is it comes across as a useless and semi-internet tough guy approach.

 

[bhsman]

There is nothing lazy in not wanting to play tape battles on every opinion. I watch lots of football but I don't record everything and I'm not going to go spend hours re-watching games just to have an opinion here especially when experience shows it is a wasted effort. eg. I thought Tajh Boyd had horribly erratic drop-backs and footwork today but I have no inclination to go watch the game over to specify plays to "prove" it. Failing to do so doesn't mean I am regurgitating or not doing any research.

I'm not attacking you or telling you to change anything. Just my opinion is it comes across as a useless and semi-internet tough guy approach.

I don't have a lot of free time, either, but even the longest cut-up of Clowney is 10 minutes on Youtube, but that's just watching Youtube. You could find the article that talks about Clowney playing 76%+ of defensive snaps and increasing his QB hits, etc.

I pointed out as much to Texecutioner, who merely handwaived it with "Yeah but Mario Williams!" if he even addressed them at all, settling on some...history argument? I guess? Or direct comparisons between distribution of talent on NFL and NCAA teams, which is even more hilariously inept.

Point is, I could do all the analysis I want, but some people are just lazy and don't want to put in the work...but still want to give an opinion, as lazy as it might be. You can call it internet tough guy stuff, but all that is is just enabling the lazy posters.

Like, look at this:

This double team crap is the worst stuff being put out there about Clowney. It's the same stupid excuses that people used to make for Mario Williams for years. Bonafied pass rushers find ways to be effective with double teams. You think guys like Mathis aren't double teamed? They are a lot, and they still make plays. They don't' all of a sudden fall off for an entire season and produce some pathetic 4 sacks and disappear often in games. JJ Watt makes himself productive all over the field, because he never stops going on every play. Double teams be damned, JJ is still going to be effective on the field and make offenses adjust to him.

None of that addresses anything I said, and just threw out the '4 sacks!!' number. By that logic, Watt had a 'pathetic' year. Someone will read that preceding sentence and squeal "But his TFLs and QB hits were really high!" and I will say the same thing about Clowney.

Nobody cares because it's easier to just be lazy, and accuse someone else of laziness. Hilarious.

 

[steelbtexan]

Characterizing the MB on the conduct of a handful is incorrect.

Agreed,
I'm a Clowney guy

But if I'm BO'B I'm taking the guy who knocks my socks off at the combine.

 

[IDEXAN]

Just to clear things up here about options to Clowney among non-QBs: I don't see any. Jake Matthews ? Many are now recognizing that he might not even be a RT propsect, let along a LT prospect. Barr, the UCLA LB ? get real, he's been a running back his whole life who just starting playing defense in the last coople years. Now I would argue that WR Sammy Watkins is the best non QB prospect in this Draft after Clowney, but we just used last years top pick on another WR, former Watkins teammate at Clemson DeAndrew Hopkins who along with Andre Johnson now are part of one of our strongest positions. In other words we won't be drafting a WR this year unless it's in the late rounds.
Long story shortened - there's no option but Clowney among non-QBs.

 

[Corrosion]

I totally agree, he is no way a sure fire 1.1 pick...far from it. If he had a high motor and shown notable better character and work ethic over the last year, I think this thread would probably be 1/3 it's size an we would be more focused at discussing shot he best QB is available to us at 2.33

No argument there .... but the fact is he does have motor concerns , injury concerns and character concerns , thus we are all over the place on the guy.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

http://www.kbtx.com/sports/headline...eature-Texas-AMs-Jake-Matthews-241906471.html

Texas A&M University offensive lineman Jake Matthews will participate in the 2014 Quicken Loans All-Star Football Challenge, an exciting skills competition featuring college football’s brightest stars. The 16th annual program is scheduled to air Tuesday, Jan. 28, at 9 p.m. ET on ESPN2 and will have an encore airing on ESPN2 at 2 p.m. ET on Feb. 2. ESPN will also air an encore at 4 p.m. ET on April 27.

 

[Number19]

Just to clear things up here about options to Clowney among non-QBs: I don't see any. Jake Matthews ? Many are now recognizing that he might not even be a RT propsect, let along a LT prospect. Barr, the UCLA LB ? get real, he's been a running back his whole life who just starting playing defense in the last coople years. Now I would argue that WR Sammy Watkins is the best non QB prospect in this Draft after Clowney, but we just used last years top pick on another WR, former Watkins teammate at Clemson DeAndrew Hopkins who along with Andre Johnson now are part of one of our strongest positions. In other words we won't be drafting a WR this year unless it's in the late rounds.
Long story shortened - there's no option but Clowney among non-QBs.

Let's take a hypothetical situation, Just exactly WHAT does a team do, if in the situation that, for whatever reasons, they just aren't enamored with the prospects considered "worth" the first overall pick; and if a trade just doesn't develop? They are, in fact, stuck with taking a player with that 1-1 pick. But they REALLY like a player who is generally considered to be "worth" selection between 5-10. What does a team do?

 

[JB]

Let's take a hypothetical situation, Just exactly WHAT does a team do, if in the situation that, for whatever reasons, they just aren't enamored with the prospects considered "worth" the first overall pick; and if a trade just doesn't develop? They are, in fact, stuck with taking a player with that 1-1 pick. But they REALLY like a player who is generally considered to be "worth" selection between 5-10. What does a team do?

If they really like any player they don't figure will make it to 2:1, and they can't trade down then they take that player at 1:1

 

[IDEXAN]

Let's take a hypothetical situation, Just exactly WHAT does a team do, if in the situation that, for whatever reasons, they just aren't enamored with the prospects considered "worth" the first overall pick; and if a trade just doesn't develop? They are, in fact, stuck with taking a player with that 1-1 pick. But they REALLY like a player who is generally considered to be "worth" selection between 5-10. What does a team do?

Great hypothetical (or maybe a real life situation for a certain team in the 2014 draft) ! Here's one scenario/answer: punt !
That's basically what the great Bill Parcelles did in the 2008 Draft when he was the man running the Miami Dolphins Personnel department. He used the 'Phins top pick on Michigan OT Jake Long who was considered a reasonable safe pick to succeed in the NFL but certainly not the most talented prospect or the player with the greatest upside in the Draft. Many were unsure Long could even make it as a LT in the NFL but figured he could make it as a RT, but he's had a reasonable solid career, i.e., he's not a bust.
Now I'm not sure who Jake Long would be in this years Draft or even if he's there this year ?'

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Alright, tell me the game, then.

Down/distance and time left, while you're at it.

OK. I just pulled up this: Jadeveon Clowney vs. Taylor Lewan 2013 Bowlgame. This is not the two games I'd seen him play previously. AND. It's a bowl game.

Second play of the video. 17 seconds into this. He rushes on a twist. The QB tries to run to the area Clowney vacated. That's all good. But when Clowney sees the play going away from him, he just jogs toward it. He doesn't run. If he had run there, he would have been in a better position to get the fumble.

At 1:09, the play goes inside of him and breaks for a long run. Once he sees he's out of the play, he's not trying to get himself back into it. In the slo-mo second version of that play, I kept expecting to see him come back into the camera but he never showed up. Which means he either stopped or he was just jogging after the play.

On the play at about 1:40, he gets doubled and when he sees the QB rushing the other way, he slows down.

On the play at about 3:09, the run is away from him and he initially pursues but then he slows down while the guy is still not down.

On the plays in the 3:35 range, he's starting to look tired and half-hearted.

On the play at about 4:01, he runs himself out of the play and then he becomes a spectator.

On the play at 4:09, he falls down. And then instead of getting up and chasing the play, he gets up and talks to the tackle.

On the next play, he rushes, the QB runs, Clowney jogs after and then when he realizes he could be in a position to hit him, he speeds up. If he had been moving at that speed for the entire play, he would have been in a better position to make a play.

On the play at 5:02, I don't know if it was called for him to take a slow contain rush but he looked lackadaisacal coming off the ball to me.

At the 8:10 mark, he gets doubled teamed. The play goes past and he just trudges downfield.

At the 8:18 mark... that was an AMAZING play. He had other opportunites to do that.

Again at 9:49, excellent play.

To me, there are a lot of times where he just doesn't look like he's in the game.

 

[Uncle Rico]

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/a...-Clowney/b755f45d-f468-4cce-98a7-0ac3c54a35e6

He's being double teamed all the time? Not really.

Kendall: There were other factors. From what I saw at games and on film, the notion that teams double-teamed him every time was way overblown. They certainly did that and they certainly game planned for him, but that happens to all great players. A nagging foot injury (beon spurs which he may or may not have addressed surgically before the combine) and what seemed to be a wandering focus at times also affected his production.

On his motor (gotta tread the company line)

Kendall: It seems to me it could get better. It's impossible for anyone outside the program to truly evaluate something like this I think, but from what I saw he needs to improve his offseason conditioning program among other things.

Kendall: Strength and conditioning. Really good to great OTs in college football (meaning every OT in the NFL) handled him at times, mostly by getting their hands on him and overpowering him. If he can get himself in the kind of shape to stay away from those guys and improve his strength and ability to slap those hands away, he can make a big jump. Also, as I mentioned above, he'll need a technique to complement his swim move but that kind of stuff can wait I imagine.

Just some topics of note that are being thrown around. Not trying to rub his nose in it, but you cant just turn a blind eye and use the 'biggest freak in a decade' argument. Grain of salt kinda thing.

 

[bhsman]

^^^Yeah, I listened to him when they had Deepi interviewing him, and I tended to agree. I should clarify that I'm not saying Clowney in fact has the drive and motor of Watt (though few - if any - do, which is sort of the point of Watt), only that the motor stuff gets a little overblown at time and people like to rely on it rather than actually put effort into it, unlike this.VVV

OK. I just pulled up this: Jadeveon Clowney vs. Taylor Lewan 2013 Bowlgame. This is not the two games I'd seen him play previously. AND. It's a bowl game.

Second play of the video. 17 seconds into this. He rushes on a twist. The QB tries to run to the area Clowney vacated. That's all good. But when Clowney sees the play going away from him, he just jogs toward it. He doesn't run. If he had run there, he would have been in a better position to get the fumble.

At 1:09, the play goes inside of him and breaks for a long run. Once he sees he's out of the play, he's not trying to get himself back into it. In the slo-mo second version of that play, I kept expecting to see him come back into the camera but he never showed up. Which means he either stopped or he was just jogging after the play.

On the play at about 1:40, he gets doubled and when he sees the QB rushing the other way, he slows down.

On the play at about 3:09, the run is away from him and he initially pursues but then he slows down while the guy is still not down.

On the plays in the 3:35 range, he's starting to look tired and half-hearted.

On the play at about 4:01, he runs himself out of the play and then he becomes a spectator.

On the play at 4:09, he falls down. And then instead of getting up and chasing the play, he gets up and talks to the tackle.

On the next play, he rushes, the QB runs, Clowney jogs after and then when he realizes he could be in a position to hit him, he speeds up. If he had been moving at that speed for the entire play, he would have been in a better position to make a play.

On the play at 5:02, I don't know if it was called for him to take a slow contain rush but he looked lackadaisacal coming off the ball to me.

At the 8:10 mark, he gets doubled teamed. The play goes past and he just trudges downfield.

At the 8:18 mark... that was an AMAZING play. He had other opportunites to do that.

Again at 9:49, excellent play.

To me, there are a lot of times where he just doesn't look like he's in the game.

I'm gonna watch this and see if this matches up, but an honest-to-Bob thank you for this.

 

[Goldensilence]

Not on the Clowney bandwagon here. Dude disappeared this year and motor concerns in my eyes.

Honestly, if the FO goes Clowney they need to hope they can either find a stop gap QB while they hope they can find a Kap or that a guy like Wilson falls to them in the second and third. I think that'd be a mistake though.

I really don't care whom they grade out higher between Bortles or Bidgewater. Personally I'm a Bridgewater guy, I think he's the best prospect this year. Either way pick one and roll with them. Otherwise we're looking at adding a big piece on defense and then still struggling on offense.