That's exactly how I see it.
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All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread
- Thread starter legacy_gt
- Start date
That's exactly how I see it.
That sounds like a best case scenario!
I'm not great judging how college talent translates to the NFL, but if they they think they can get a franchise QB with their pick, they have to take it. My only fear is they think they need a QB so bad that they pick the best QB "on the board" whether they really think he's the answer or not. We have other needs too.
I'm good with a QB, too. If that QB is the best player in the draft. I just don't want to force the #1 pick on a QB (Carr, Russell, Bradford, etc.) when there are better players at other key positions. Is there a Luck, RGIII, or Newton in this draft? That's what has to be answered.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I read someone on here say that Kubiak was planning on benching Case and going with Schaub the rest of the season. And that was probably the final straw for McNair because they'd probably already agreed as a team to let Case have his chance the rest of the season to see if he could progress and learn.
I think if Kubiak hadn't made that decision and if he'd been able to get Case to progress some more, he'd have kept his job to the offseason.
CretorFrigg
Fire Rick Smith
That seems reasonable. However, with that said, I've seen enough of Case. Neither Case nor Schaub can get it done. At times, Case just looks lost out there. He doesn't have a hot read when there's an obvious blitzing situation, and it's frustrating because even a non-football guru like me can tell a blitz is coming.
Schaub is Schaub. I'm over him. We need to draft a QB in the first or second round.
I'm pessimistic about this as well. Every year there are a dozen new QBs that gets someone hot under the gills. Keenum is signed through at least another year. By the time he hits the market, younger, faster, QBs with brighter futures will be all the rage & guys like Christian Ponder, Ryan Tannehill, & Matt Schaub will be getting recycled with more attention than the UDFA that had 1 games to show he can't adjust to the NFL.
Then you don't have a clue , the offense has been drastically changed from what we saw with Schaub under center to what we see with Keenum. Keenum hasn't been able to make the routine plays and that's the bottom line.
There is so much misinformation over this whole firing subject its comical.
We'd be in better shape, much better shape if we had a viable option at the QB position, allowing us to drop the QB priortiy to the third or 4th & get a couple of blue chip players.. RT, ILB, OLB in the first 2 rounds.
As it is, we're still holding out hope that Brennan Williams is a better RT than Newton/Harris. True, he can't be worse, but we need better.
If that's the case (no pun intended) then we're going to spend the next three weeks finding out what Kubiak already knows. Case ain't the one.
Exascor
Veteran
Yeah this is my biggest pet peeve. There's plenty of garbage to use against Kubiak - why invent stuff that doesn't exist?
Even the media is doing it .... last night I was listening to an interview of Ian Rapoport and he stated draft pick influence being part of the problem - Dude doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
Or ch 13 news saying Case had a lot more fans and support than Matt and then they went live to UofH to talk to those fans
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I wouldn't be to optimistic of any lineman following microfracture surgery.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
That was my worry. and im not sure if you happen to know if there were any indicators in college of health issues that the front office missed either by negligence or just imcompetence. Brennan is a high pick to have to scratch out before he ever plays a game.
Vance87
All Pro
Just saying. Look at Nick Foles's performances in 2012 and then in 2013. Did anything last year tell you he was going to have that much success this year? No.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FoleNi00/gamelog//
This is why we can't shut the door on Keenum after only a handful of starts.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FoleNi00/gamelog//
This is why we can't shut the door on Keenum after only a handful of starts.
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
The offense has not drastically changed. It's the same offense. I think Keenum plays out of the shotgun and pistol slightly more than Schaub.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
How many players looked poor for a year or two and never turned it around? I'd guess it's more than were able to make a ridiculous turnaround. Kept holding that powerball ticket
I don't know if Keenum is the answer, and we definitely should have a QB competition next training camp. However, is the 25-26 quarters Keenum has played with a RB with 4 broken ribs and a spotty (at best) offensive line enough to totally close the book on him? I don't think so, although many on here seem to think he'll never be a legitimate starting QB.
No , they have changed ... Nothing. They still line up in the I with two TE's and try to run the ball and only throw off of play action.
They don't line up with 3 wides and a TE and definitely don't run empty sets.
There is no difference between the pistol and being under center either ....
FFS have you been watching ?! The offense has changed .... drastically along with the QB change.
I had high hopes for Keenum from the beginning and even more so after the KC game .... but those hops have been tempered because he hasn't made the easy plays.
Yes , he's made a lot of big plays , extended plays and made something out of nothing on many occasions .... The OL is horrible and their running game isn't near what we have come to expect .... Its really difficult to evaluate Keenum based upon what he's had to work with ....
He's not identifying the blitz and getting to his hot route more often than not. That along with not completing a better percentage of passes , especially the shorter routes has me believing he's not the guy to lead this team in the future.
Yep , he makes a lot of big plays .... but not making the "run of the mill plays" in between that keeps drives alive is pretty telling at this point.
I hope I'm wrong .... but what from what I've seen thus far , Keenum isn't good enough to win big.
Vance87
All Pro
What's your point? My point is that you can't possibly tell a QB's future after a handful of starts, and many examples prove this. Are you disagreeing with that?
No , just saying that the odds are long .....
Vance87
All Pro
Saying a guy might improve in his second year starting is not exactly going out on a limb.
Not at all ... but to expect a player to make the kind of leap Foles did is pretty unreasonable.
Vance87
All Pro
There are many other examples already listed in this thread.
And for every example you list , we can list 20 who made little to no improvement.
Not to say it cant happen , just that the odds of it happening are long.
Vance87
All Pro
Point is you don't know until you know. Can't count a guy out after a handful of starts. That is not debatable
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Luck finished out last year (16 games) with 23 TDs 18 INTs with 4300 yds passing with a completion rate of 54% and a QBR of 76.4.
Keenum after ~6 1/2games has 9 TDs 4 INTs with 1600 yds passing with a completion rate of 54% and a QBR of 83.7.
Stupid Colts organization should have traded Luck and drafted 2 more QBs this year.
It is debatable.
Some guy's you can , others you cant.
Yates only got a handful of starts , you ready to give him another shot or do you think we know what we have there ?!
I absolutely agree with this. Whatever Keenum does the rest of this year, is not long enough.
But, if they take a QB high in the draft, there is no way in hell he will EVER be FAIRLY evaluated. It will be the high draft pick against the undrafted free agent, and it will be the money making the decision.
It's sad, and it SUCKS. Keenum has shown enough flashes, that he'll end up being being Drew Brees 2 for some other team, and we will sh!t the bed on another QB bust.
If we end up with #1 overall pick, I want them to trade down all the way out of the first round. We'll get a boatload of 2nds, and take a QB with one of those . . .
. . . and have a FAIR competition next training camp.
All of this draft player X stuff depends on who the next HC is and what system he'll run. If Gruden is hired, I'd expect to see Keenum as the starter next year and draft a QB in the 1st in 2015 if that fails.
Is McNair so enamored with Keenum that the new HC will have to start him just to get the gig?
We've already seen a HC tell McNair he can win with a sub par QB in 2006. How did that end up?
Hopefully, McNair is just doing his due dilligence on Keenum to justify spending a top 5 pick on a QB when there are so many other holes to fill.
Myself, I'd like to see Jake Matthews drafted. That would be an instant upgrade at RT.
Is McNair so enamored with Keenum that the new HC will have to start him just to get the gig?
We've already seen a HC tell McNair he can win with a sub par QB in 2006. How did that end up?
Hopefully, McNair is just doing his due dilligence on Keenum to justify spending a top 5 pick on a QB when there are so many other holes to fill.
Myself, I'd like to see Jake Matthews drafted. That would be an instant upgrade at RT.
Mathews is a beast no doubt but I think I'd prefer going Barr in the 1st round, a right tackle in the second, corner/safety in the 3rd. After that it's pretty much who is the most talented on the board.
If Keenum doesn't improve it's going to have to be a QB in the second and move RT to 3rd.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Gruden has zilch track for success with a young QB. His success came at the hands of old QBs - Gannon, Johnson & Garcia. He'd be more likely to make a play to bring in Vick.
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
And fill some gaping holes in our O & D lines. I wouldn't be opposed to that at all. If we could get this "boatload" of 2nds that is.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I don't see that many gaping holes. Quees replaces Smith and a pick replaces Newton. Assuming 3-4 re-sign Antonio at a lower price and draft a NT. That's two draft picks.
God I sure hope he doesn't bring in Vick. I don't think I can support a team that has the dog executioner at quarterback.
Agreed but he is "known" for being a QB guru, similar to Kubiak. The reason I stated what I did is because Gruden has stated publicly that he likes Keenum.
Keenum also attended his QB camp and I wouldn;t be overly shocked to see naming Keenum the starter as a requisite for the HC position. Hopefully McNair learned from the Carr/Kubiak debacle in 2006, but who knows? McNair seems awfully high on him.
amazing80
Hall of Fame
I would sign a free agent for Newton and save the pick for something else, like linebacker.
So you're OK with the production of Merci and Reed? I'm not. Reed is a complete bust and Merci appears to be average, at best.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Open to that but it may be significantly more money. Have to look at who is available in FA for each. Winston is going to be a FA .
I don't know if that is a given. Gruden never had a high pick spent on a young QB during his seasons with the Raiders or Bucs. He may relish the opportunity to mold a young, talented signal caller.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
He picked Chris Simms in the 2nd round of the 2003 draft for the Buccs. Marques Tuiasosopo for the Raiders in 2001 in the 2nd round.
The only other QB he drafted was Bruce Gradkowski in a later round for the Buccs.
Actually, thumbing through the Buccaneer and Raider drafts during his tenures there is pretty brutal. Some really bad drafts. I think his best draft was the year he got Sebastian Janikowski and Shane Lechler.
Simms was taken in the 3rd round. After watching his college career, that was a reach. And Gruden didn't take Tuiasosopo. Al Davis was still running the show in 2001. That was considered a reach at the time. I don't think that Tuiasosopo's lack of development can be pinned on Gruden, either, as 2001 was Gruden's last year with the Raiders.
Vance87
All Pro
No it's not, unless he either performs terribly (like 0 TD 10 INT) or you can see the future. Can you see the future?
And Yates I believe would make a decent game managing QB. There is no 'wow' factor with him. At least Case showed that upside.
Difference is, Luck was making plays to help his team win in crunch time. Case, not so much. Case brings a net 0, if not a negative to our offense.
QBs throw balls that get caught & end up being touchdowns sometimes. We can all find stats that agree with our argument, tear down each other's arguments, or whatever it is we want to do with the stats. This is a talented football team, maybe not the most talented in the league, but not the worst, & our offense is crap. Case doesn't make it better, does not make it worse.
I'm not an Andrew Luck fan, I have not tried to hide that. But his team is better with him.
& why is that? Because Gruden said a good word about Case two years ago? We're talking about Jon Gruden. He's infatuated with young QBs, as if he's living vicariously through them. He's got at least 3 other "favorite" QBs since he fell in love with Case & he'll fall in love with three more before the draft.
& if Gruden is our next HC, I'll bet you dollars to donuts he will take whoever the media trumps up as the best of the class.
I disagree that this is a talented football team. I can name only 1 player on defense that is talented and thats JJ Watt. JJo is really struggling as corner and he is supposedly our best. Besides those two players you can argue that the rest of the defense is below average. Cush is good too but he's injured.
On offense there's a handful of good players but the right side of the line really struggles.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Yep. When I looked at the 2003 draft, I saw that Simms was the second guy they took. I missed that they didn't have a first round pick that year and it was the 3rd.
And, yeah, the Raider data is tainted by the ghost of Al Davis.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I pointed out the other day he had no track record of drafting QBs. Now I don't claim to know the power dynamics of the two teams but the guy was a HC for 11 years. If he wanted one taken high and never got one in 11 years it doesn't support the "he built both teams" theory.
So no it is not a given but the picture we have is all the success comes with vets and none with young QBs by choice (he had part of a season with Simms but that was due to injury to yet another vet Griese).
As for saying he likes Keenum (not you Lucky), well...he has also said he likes Schaub a bunch of times. During the last Seahawk game he selected Schaub as an example on how to pick apart the Seahawks secondary (and pointed to things Schaub supposedly doesn't do like looking off DBs). Anybody going to be happy if he thinks he can pull a Gannon with Schaub? Vick (Garcia 2.0) or Schaub (Gannon & Johnson) look more likely to me.
Schaub is done in Houston. There's no way in hell McNair is going to put Schaub out there in front of the fans that boo'd his return, boo'd his injury, and set his jersey on fire. He's going to be traded, McNair has had enough of him.