All Encompassing Case Keenum Thread

[WolverineFan]

Not necessarily.
If you look back at the draft over the last twenty years, the percentage of successful QBs is only highest at the number one overall slot (and the top two when there were two great prospects).
Even so, there were plenty of busts.

The rest of the first rounders didn't fare as well.
For the most part, there were almost always other Qbs that were not drafted in the first that ended up having better careers.

I'd like to add onto that and look at where starting QB's have been drafted. We'll skip the last 2 years because it's too early and and go straight to 2011.


2011
Cam Newton - #1 (1)
Jake Locker - #8 (1)
Blaine Gabbert - #10 (1)
Chrisitan Ponder - #12 (1)
Andy Dalton - #35 (2)
Colin Kaepernick - #36 (2)

2010
Sam Bradford - #1 (1)

2009
Matt Stafford - #1 (1)

2008
Matt Ryan - #3 (1)
Joe Flacco - #18 (1)

2006
Jay Cutler - #11 (1)

2005
Alex Smith - #1 (1)
Aaron Rodgers - #24 (1)
Jason Campbell - #25 (1)

2004
Eli Manning - #1 (1)
Philip Rivers - #4 (1)
Ben Roethlisberger - #11 (1)
Matt Schaub - #90 (3)

2003
Carson Palmer - #1 (1)

2001
Drew Brees - #32 (2)

2000
Tom Brady - #199 (6)

1998
Peyton Manning - #1 (1)


With the exception of Tom Brady, every starting QB that was drafted pre-2011 was taken in the top 36 picks. The guys picked below that almost all busted or were backups.

I added Schaub in there to portray how far behind we are as an organization at valuing the QB position. Pretty much every team in the league was going for QB's in the 1st round, but we were content with shipping off some second day picks for a 3rd round talent.

 

[Thorn]

I'd like to see Keenum play for a coach that actually plans for a game and a second half. Hell, it wouldn't take a month for Kubiak to turn Tom Brady into David Carr. Keenum has a lot to learn, that's for sure, but playing for Kubiak has special burdens built in for the players.

 

[76Texan]

We can do year by year to have a better gauge.

In 2011, Newton was the concensus #1, except for those who disliked his "divaness".
Here, I've rated Newton as a franchise QB worthy of the No. 1 spot.
I don't see any in this mold in the 2014 class.

Gabbert busted.

Locker and Ponder are going nowhere at the moment; they have been outperformed by Dalton and Kaepernick, both second rounders that I liked better than the 3 guys ahead of him.

 

[76Texan]

In 2010, Bradford was regarded highly (I was among those people.)

However, there were concern with the injury he sustained in college.
That's where he's at, a good QB, meted by injury; he's out for the season.

The other first rounder, Tebow, never worked out.
He's just a back up like Claussen and McCoy.

 

[WolverineFan]

We can do year by year to have a better gauge.

In 2011, Newton was the concensus #1, except for those who disliked his "divaness".
Here, I've rated Newton as a franchise QB worthy of the No. 1 spot.
I don't see any in this mold in the 2014 class.

Gabbert busted.

Locker and Ponder are going nowhere at the moment; they have been outperformed by Dalton and Kaepernick, both second rounders that I liked better than the 3 guys ahead of him.

The bust rate is certainly extremely high in the 1st round, but that's because that's where everyone is targeting their QB's. That's my point. Everyone is talking about drafting OL in the 1st and looking for QB in the 2nd or 3rd. The numbers say that, even though the bust potential is very high, your best odds of finding a starting QB are in the 1st round.

 

[76Texan]

In 2009, Stafford was slotted as the number one overall, and deservedly so.

Sanchez busted and Freeman is JAG.

 

[76Texan]

The bust rate is certainly extremely high in the 1st round, but that's because that's where everyone is targeting their QB's. That's my point. Everyone is talking about drafting OL in the 1st and looking for QB in the 2nd or 3rd. The numbers say that, even though the bust potential is very high, your best odds of finding a starting QB are in the 1st round.

Many of these first rounders were starters only because of their draft status.

 

[76Texan]

In 2008, I liked Matt Ryan.
At the time, there was concern that he played mostly out of the shotgun at BC.
I estimated that he was under center roughly 30% of the time, and he looked just fine there.
I would sign off on him.

Flacco was a guy that I agreed with ThreeToePete on his potential.
We both said this guy might deserve a first round pick.

So if the Texans have a high pick this year, I would have spent it on Ryan, even though I also like Flacco's potential.

 

[HOU-TEX]

He has gotten a little better, but still hovering around 50% comp rate and holding onto the ball too long. There's still 4 games to go, but I haven't seen anything that would prevent us drafting a QB if there's one the GM & coach like (whoever that might be).

 

[76Texan]

In 2007, I said NO to Russell and NO to Quin.

I would rathe tatie Kolb here (but to be blunt, I've said Keenum is the UH guy I like the most as a prospect.)

At least, Kolb outperformed Russell and Quin.

 

[76Texan]

In 2006, VY and Leinart were busts.
Cutler is a JAG.

Also, because I wasn't enamored with any QB in 2007, I didn't mind the Texans traded for Schaub.

 

[WolverineFan]

Many of these first rounders were starters only because of their draft status.

Then name the other starters who weren't drafted that high.

Tony Romo, Case Keenum, Tom Brady, Geno Smith, Matt McGloin, Nick Foles, Russell Wilson, and Mike Glennon are the only starters that weren't taken top 36. That means 75% of the starting QB's in the NFL were taken in the top 36. That's no coincidence.

 

[76Texan]

In 2005, Alex Smith was a decent prospect; I didn't want him at No. 1 overall though; he was replaced by Kaepernick.

I did not watch Rodgers in college so I had no opinion on him.
Rodgers took a little while to develop behind Favre.

Jason Campbell is another JAG.
You can't tell the difference between him and 4th rounder Kyle Orton or 7th rounder Fitzpatrick.
Anothe 7th rounder, Matt Cassell, is having a better career.

 

[76Texan]

Then name the other starters who weren't drafted that high.

Tony Romo, Case Keenum, Tom Brady, Geno Smith, Matt McGloin, Nick Foles, Russell Wilson, and Mike Glennon are the only starters that weren't taken top 36. That means 75% of the starting QB's in the NFL were taken in the top 36. That's no coincidence.

You have to take out the bona-fide QBs that I mentioned with high probability of being a franchise QB.

 

[Porky]

I haven't read every post here, but what the heck..it's a forum where we throw out an opinion and debate it so here's mine.

I've held my powder because I wanted a decent sample size. I think Keenum is A guy, but not THE guy.

Can he play in the NFL? Sure. I think he has proven that, and from an UDFA to that status is a kudos to him sentiment. But the NFL is really divided among the have's and have nots in the modern era. You either have a franchise QB or you don't.

The Texans don't have one on the roster. Of that, I am convinced. Can Case get better? Sure. But let's face it, for all of the reputation that the guy had, he has been a shrinking violet. Franchise QB's don't have that many game winning chances and blow them...all of them. Not one time has Case driven his team down for a game winning score and he has had many, many chances so far. For me, that is a huge red flag early in his career.

I like him as a long term good quality backup who can spot start and do a fine job. But is he taking us to a SB? Highly doubtful.

Since we have a sure top 5 pick, and quite possibly the first pick, there is no better time to get a new field general. Anyone but the Aggie for me. I can't stand that conceited jerk, and I think he has high bust/injury potential. He reminds me way too much of Ryan Leaf in demeanor and his selfish me first attitude. Would not touch him with a 10000 foot pole in any round much less the first.

Bridgewater seems to be the consensus. I've seen a lot less of him than the Aggie, but no way in hell would I touch Manziel.

 

[TEXANRED]

See one of my posts above.
There are no recent QB with better numbers than Keenum through the first six games. They were helped by other components on the team.

You can't just look at numbers when it comes to QB's comparisons. This is what we did when it came to David Carr. We compared him to John Elway and Manning and said those numbers were the same as Carr. And again Comparing Carr to Elway is like comparing a Pinto to a Viper.

Keenum has done zero on the field when it comes to making "The Play" that wins us the game. Lord knows he has had the opportunity. All but one of those games have come down to a TD or less.

Keenum had his shot, he knew what he was up against, and these are his results.

For the sake of the franchise and my own metal state we need to move forward, I don't have another 5 years of a QB project in me.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

In 2009, Stafford was slotted as the number one overall, and deservedly so.

Sanchez busted and Freeman is JAG.

The way I've looked at it is that no matter where QBs will have been picked, their ultimate success will be dictated by their ability to adapt and change their college skills to the NFL game....... with the help of a coach that can assist with that adaption, whether it be by finely honing and/or redirecting those skills and or honing his (the coach) own skills in adapting and/or attaining supporting cast, and adapting the game plan to the QB. Potentially great QBs don't develop in a vacuum.........and if their "needs" are not met
through their coaches, they are destined to REMAIN "Potentially Great QBs"..........on the sidelines.......or in front of their TVs on any given Sunday.

 

[WolverineFan]

You have to take out the bona-fide QBs that I mentioned with high probability of being a franchise QB.

Why? The numbers still say that, despite bust potential, your odds of finding a QB are much higher at the top of the draft.

You're just naming off guys who busted and failing to mention that the only guys in those drafts who succeeded were drafted high.

In 2010, Bradford is the only guys still starting. Bradford and Tebow were the only guys taken in the top 40. You condemn him as being an average starter when really you should be condemning the other 11 QB's taken outside the top 40. 1 out of 2 QB's in the top 40 is still starting. 0 of 11 QB's outside the top 40 is starting.

2009, 1 of 3 QB's taken top 40 is still starting. 0 of 8 QB's taken outside top 40 are starting.

2008, 2 of 2 QB's taken top 40 is still starting. 1 of 11 QB's taken outside top 40 are starting.

Again, it's not about the bust rate. It's about the odds. Taking a QB in the 1st round is the most successful way to find a starting QB.

 

[76Texan]

I didn't watch much college football the years before 2005, so I really didn't know about many of these guys.

We just know that in 04, 3 guys worked out: Eli (who lost his first six games), Rivers and Big Ben.
Schaub was a 4th rounder who had a much better TD/Int ratio over the other 3.
Don't forget that Brees actually turned out to be better than Rivers

In 03, Palmer was considered a bona-fide franchise QB just as Eli.
Leftwich was a JAG with a short career.
Boller went nowhere; and we don't need to talk about Grossman.

In 2002; Carr was a bust;
Harrington, Ramsey were afterthoughts.

They were outplayed by third rounder McCown and 4th rounder Garrard,

 

[Corrosion]

He has gotten a little better, but still hovering around 50% comp rate and holding onto the ball too long. There's still 4 games to go, but I haven't seen anything that would prevent us drafting a QB if there's one the GM & coach like (whoever that might be).

Same here.


Many times a new administration comes in they also bring in their own QB ... I expect this to be no different. The only question right now is who that QB will be.

 

[76Texan]

Same here.


Many times a new administration comes in they also bring in their own QB ... I expect this to be no different. The only question right now is who that QB will be.

I also stated that the Texans should draft another QB.

Hey, remember that I advocated taking both Wilson and Keenum as insurance policies for one another.

Wouldn't you say that would have been a hell of a move?

 

[76Texan]

Why? The numbers still say that, despite bust potential, your odds of finding a QB are much higher at the top of the draft.

You're just naming off guys who busted and failing to mention that the only guys in those drafts who succeeded were drafted high.

In 2010, Bradford is the only guys still starting. Bradford and Tebow were the only guys taken in the top 40. You condemn him as being an average starter when really you should be condemning the other 11 QB's taken outside the top 40. 1 out of 2 QB's in the top 40 is still starting. 0 of 11 QB's outside the top 40 is starting.

2009, 1 of 3 QB's taken top 40 is still starting. 0 of 8 QB's taken outside top 40 are starting.

2008, 2 of 2 QB's taken top 40 is still starting. 1 of 11 QB's taken outside top 40 are starting.

Again, it's not about the bust rate. It's about the odds. Taking a QB in the 1st round is the most successful way to find a starting QB.

I don't totally disregard it.

I would have taken Luck if I had the No. 1 pick.
I would take RG III with the second pick, but I wouldn't trade up the farm to get him like the Redskins did.
It's coming back to bite them hard.

In this upcoming draft, I actually like Mariota's potential, but since he's too raw, and there are questions with his knee and his concussion, it tampers with my enthusiasm.

Bridgewater doesn't play well under pressure as a franchise QB should.

I would rather trade down for extra picks, including a first rounder in 2015.

There are guys like Murray, McCarron who had demonstrated the ability to play under fire a little better than Bridgewater and they will be available later.

I'm not sure which of these guys will end up having a better NFL career; ie. none of them are bona-fide franchise QB to me.
I don't care to risk a high pick for them.

I can easily risk a third on Manziel though.

 

[WolverineFan]

Bridgewater doesn't play well under pressure as a franchise QB should.

There are guys like Murray, McCarron who had demonstrated the ability to play under fire a little better than Bridgewater and they will be available later.

Not sure where you get this. Bridgewater plays great when under pressure.

 

[WolverineFan]

I'm not sure which of these guys will end up having a better NFL career; ie. none of them are bona-fide franchise QB to me.
I don't care to risk a high pick for them.

Which is fine. But don't expect to walk out of the draft with a starting QB if you pass on one in the top 40. That's all I've been saying.

 

[Mr teX]

No. He didn't. Go look at his numbers. That team led him to the Super Bowl. He had a few games (some of which were losses), but he had games where he turned the ball over and the team won despite him. Keenum has had games where he's scored TDs and not turned the ball over and yet the team hasn't won.

Too much credit and blame is assigned to the QB. Rex Grossman "led" the Bears to the Super Bowl much moreso than Brady "led" the Pats that first year. It's a BS myth that's been perpetuated because Brady became a good QB. But he became a good QB because he was given reps. It wasn't instantaneous, and he did not play especially well early on.

Stats lie.

look, i don't even like Brady like that but the Pats back then were a run first control the clock team...That more than anything helped him and the offense & the defense out....lets also not make the Pats defense out to be the 85 bears where they just completely dominated the opposition. They were good, but that's about where it stops.

You can only lead those who will follow and It would've been easy for Belichick to go back to Bledsoe...especially after Bledsoe came in that Pitts playoff game Brady got injured in & looked good. But he didn't. It was obvious they had something....He knew it & the team knew it.

Now I'm with you on the bolded, but comparing him & Rex Grossman is laughable. by Brady's 5th-6th games he was already bringing his team from behind and leading them victories. I vividly remember him putting together some clutch drives early on & throughout the season that enabled them to win some games...& he was doing it with not even a 3rd of the weaponry Case has....which that alone is more than anything Case has done to this point. The majority of his starts he's had numerous opportunities to do the same things Brady actually did...He's failed miserably & just been ok for most of them.

 

[HOU-TEX]

Same here.


Many times a new administration comes in they also bring in their own QB ... I expect this to be no different. The only question right now is who that QB will be.

Agreed. I haven't gotten into draft mode yet. I don't know who I like more, much less what a coaching staff would like. I do, however, like Mariota's physical abilities.

 

[NCTexan]

The first drive was stopped when Dennis Johnson couldn't pull in the ball;
I guess he's not a receiver so he's not used to jump for the ball; he was trying to reach for it.

This play was on Keenum, not DJ.

 

[infantrycak]

This play was on Keenum, not DJ.

Disagree. The ball was not ideally thrown but was absolutely catchable. DJ made an inexcusably lackadaisical effort. White guys laughed at his "jump" to get the ball.

He looked good on the day but not on that play.

 

[76Texan]

Not sure where you get this. Bridgewater plays great when under pressure.

When I watch a game, I look for how a QB perform as a whole, but I also separated all instances in which the QB was under some form of pressure.

For example, in 2012, I noted that Wilson saw the most pressure at Wisconsin.
Second was Keenum.
I believe RG III was third.
All three of them did well (as a percentage of the number of plays under pressure.)
Next were Cousins and Murray. Murray did better than Cousins.
Luck saw the fewest pressure among those guys.
Luck also did well, but he benefited from not being under pressure as much.

I still have to rated Luck at the top due to his size and athleticism.
RGIII was next, only because he's not as big.
I also have a concern with QBs making plays with their legs too often (possibility of injuries.)
I put Wilson ahead of Keenum, also because he's more athletic.
I like Murray more than Cousins, but I'm also Leary of his gunslinger mentality.

The thing with Bridgewater is that he hasn't faced as much pressure as some of the guys mentioned above, people don't notice it as much.

McCarron and Petty have been protected well also.

 

[Mr teX]

Eli Manning lost his first six games.
Dan Fouts went winless for seven.
Moon recorded zero win in his first ten tries.

In the meantime, no QB drafted in the first two rounds in at least the last ten years were able to put up the same numbers that Keenum did.

But I guess people would rather have VY and Tebow the Gods, LOL.

Keenum hasn't been asked to take over a 2-14 oilers team like moon was....or a 4-12 Giants team that finished last in their division behind a 5-11 Redskins team like Eli was. God only knows what Fouts' team was before he came aboard but i'm confident that they were probably bad too.

all those guys came into way worse situations....which pretty much explains why they didn't have the same kind of "success" that Keenum has enjoyed in the stats dept. thus far. They took over very bad teams devoid of any real talent.

Keenum has actually got a chance to step in and take over a fairly talented team on both sides of the ball...that much is acknowledged by everyone. A team that was 12-4 last year...So i'm not so sure the stats tell you what you think they tell you. His stats might be more reflective of that more than anything.

 

[Speedy]

Well I personally have seen enough of Keenum to know he is not a starting caliber QB for an NFL team. He does great in the beginning of games but in pressure situation he crumbles. He is not a finisher. He is an up grade to TJ Yates and makes a nice home town story but I am ready to move on.

Bring on Bridgewater.

Stupid Colts for hanging onto Peyton after his 1st 6 games, 1-5 record, 6 TD, 14 picks. The Lions are morons too I guess for hanging onto Stafford after his 1-5 start, 5 TD and 12 picks. Not to mention Flacco's 2 TD, 7 pick start (though he did win 3 games but his D gave up more than 13 points just twice). I know, probably apples to oranges, huh? I mean that's the go to excuse when you're argument is ignorant, right?

I'm sorry to say that you, or anyone who feels as you do, haven't got anyone's career figured out after 6 freaking games. And neither do those who think Case could be the guy. You have to learn to play NFL football. It isn't like anything you've ever played before. That's why so many college "can't misses" fail at this level. Peyton Manning struggled at the start of his career. Just like Stafford, Flacco, and Luck (7 TD, 7 INT in his 1st 6) did and many, many more who've had decent to great careers, and like Case (8 TD, 3 picks) is doing now.

The more games he plays, defenses he sees, maybe he learns how to play this game and turns out to be something special....or maybe he doesn't. But 6 games in isn't going to tell you jack crap, unless he's just somebody who can't make throws and looks lost out there. That hasn't been the case for Case. We've seen him make throws, seen him make plays. We've also seen him make those "rookie" mistakes as well. Comes with learning the game. He's not out there completing passes to the ground or slamming his face into someone's butt.

He'll have 10 NFL games under his belt going into next year's camp. And if he makes the same kind of progress in camp #3 as he did in camp #2, he just might turn out to be something. But 6 games is not going to tell anyone what his career will be.

 

[76Texan]

Keenum hasn't been asked to take over a 2-14 oilers team like moon was....or a 4-12 Giants team that finished last in their division behind a 5-11 Redskins team like Eli was. God only knows what Fouts' team was before he came aboard but i'm confident that they were probably bad too.

all those guys came into way worse situations....which pretty much explains why they didn't have the same kind of "success" that Keenum has enjoyed in the stats dept. thus far. They took over very bad teams devoid of any real talent.

Keenum has actually got a chance to step in and take over a fairly talented team on both sides of the ball...that much is acknowledged by everyone. A team that was 12-4 last year...So i'm not so sure the stats tell you what you think they tell you. His stats might be more reflective of that more than anything.

I believe you I overstate the situation.
This team was a shell of its former past before Cushing went down in 2012.
Myers has not been playing as well.
Wade Smith's age and chronic knee problem doesn't help him; did you notice that Ben Jones has been spelling him some?
Newton is playing worse after his injury early last year.
Brooks is still inconsistent.
O.D. and Foster are both out.
Tate is a walking wounded.
The receivers as a whole are comparable; Hopkins will be better than Walter, but right now he's still inconsistent.
Cushing is out again, along with Manning.
None of the safeties can replace Quin.
Jackson was out for awhile.
The combos at OLB, believe it or not, are even worse than last year.

That 5-0 team in 2012 was a different team than the one that finished the season 7-4.
It is even more different than the team than Keenum "inherits".

There are turmoils in the locker room, starting with the comment by Ed Reed.
It looks like the big honchos Kubiak and Wade had lost the team.

With Keenum keeping the game close, the defense still can't manage to stop the Pats. Do you recall how easy the marched down the field in the second half?

And let's not talk about Marciano, please!

 

[2012Champs]

After all the examples of QBs who started off bad and turned it around how many start off poorly and never turn it around? Id guess that route has higher volume. Just as Case going winless in his first 6 starts doesnt mean he is done just because others turned it around doesnt mean he will either.

 

[badboy]

Keenum is not in the same conversation as the QB's you mentioned. That would be like comparing a Pinto to a Corvette. keenum is not the same class of QB.

How in the world can you say that? How can you know what Keenum will develop into? He may or may not but no one knew what those guys would do before they did it.

 

[76Texan]

After all the examples of QBs who started off bad and turned it around how many start off poorly and never turn it around? Id guess that route has higher volume. Just as Case going winless in his first 6 starts doesnt mean he is done just because others turned it around doesnt mean he will either.

And that's what Speedy and I and others saying.
On the other side of the coin, guys like VY, Tebow, and Sanchez aren't automatic just because their teams helped them winsome early games.

It's too early to call one way or another.

 

[TEXANRED]

How in the world can you say that? How can you know what Keenum will develop into? He may or may not but no one knew what those guys would do before they did it.

So you are ready to mortgage the Texans future for the next 5 years and put it all on Keenum?

 

[TEXANRED]

Stupid Colts for hanging onto Peyton after his 1st 6 games, 1-5 record, 6 TD, 14 picks. The Lions are morons too I guess for hanging onto Stafford after his 1-5 start, 5 TD and 12 picks. Not to mention Flacco's 2 TD, 7 pick start (though he did win 3 games but his D gave up more than 13 points just twice). I know, probably apples to oranges, huh? I mean that's the go to excuse when you're argument is ignorant, right?

I'm sorry to say that you, or anyone who feels as you do, haven't got anyone's career figured out after 6 freaking games. And neither do those who think Case could be the guy. You have to learn to play NFL football. It isn't like anything you've ever played before. That's why so many college "can't misses" fail at this level. Peyton Manning struggled at the start of his career. Just like Stafford, Flacco, and Luck (7 TD, 7 INT in his 1st 6) did and many, many more who've had decent to great careers, and like Case (8 TD, 3 picks) is doing now.

The more games he plays, defenses he sees, maybe he learns how to play this game and turns out to be something special....or maybe he doesn't. But 6 games in isn't going to tell you jack crap, unless he's just somebody who can't make throws and looks lost out there. That hasn't been the case for Case. We've seen him make throws, seen him make plays. We've also seen him make those "rookie" mistakes as well. Comes with learning the game. He's not out there completing passes to the ground or slamming his face into someone's butt.

He'll have 10 NFL games under his belt going into next year's camp. And if he makes the same kind of progress in camp #3 as he did in camp #2, he just might turn out to be something. But 6 games is not going to tell anyone what his career will be.

Actually the more he has played the worse he has gotten.

Kubiak won't be here next year so Case is starting from level 1 again.

 

[Mr teX]

I believe you I overstate the situation.
This team was a shell of its former past before Cushing went down in 2012.
Myers has not been playing as well.
Wade Smith's age and chronic knee problem doesn't help him; did you notice that Ben Jones has been spelling him some?
Newton is playing worse after his injury early last year.
Brooks is still inconsistent.
O.D. and Foster are both out.
Tate is a walking wounded.
The receivers as a whole are comparable; Hopkins will be better than Walter, but right now he's still inconsistent.
Cushing is out again, along with Manning.
None of the safeties can replace Quin.
Jackson was out for awhile.
The combos at OLB, believe it or not, are even worse than last year.

That 5-0 team in 2012 was a different team than the one that finished the season 7-4.
It is even more different than the team than Keenum "inherits".

There are turmoils in the locker room, starting with the comment by Ed Reed.
It looks like the big honchos Kubiak and Wade had lost the team.

With Keenum keeping the game close, the defense still can't manage to stop the Pats. Do you recall how easy the marched down the field in the second half?

And let's not talk about Marciano, please!

....In 1 post you went from "well, keenum could do more if he didn't have to deal with all this.." with your laundry list to literally "With Keenum keeping the game close..." As if, he's the sole reason why the games have been close...which we know isn't true.

it just comes off as excuses....call a spade a spade...stats be damned, he hasn't gotten it done & there is next to nothing to suggest that he will ever be able to get it done.

Furthermore, Schaub had to deal with half of that stuff as well..this is the hand he has been dealt, he needs to show marked improvement. All you guys are in here doing now is claiming moral victories..."look at his stats, he's doing better than this HOFer ever did"......

 

[steelbtexan]

Not advocating for Keenum

Troy Aikman went 1-15 his rookie yr and he didn't play the game they won. His career turned out OK.

The Texans aren't as talented as posters think they are. They're 2-10 for a reason. I believe they're better than 2-10 and Gary is the main reason for this. But talented teams dont lose 10 in a row and are currently in line for the 1st pick in the draft. Unless Gary is a complete moron, which Idont believe he is.

 

[eriadoc]

So you are ready to mortgage the Texans future for the next 5 years and put it all on Keenum?

It's not an either/or question. The future should not have been mortgaged by putting it all on Schaub, if you want to think like that. Unless you have a top tier guy, you should always have a guy waiting in the wings pushing him. The Keenum detractors on here made up their minds before he ever hit the field, if you want to be real about it. The rest of us have said that we want to see Keenum get a shot and see what happens. Well, he's getting that shot, and most of us are still saying to draft a QB next year. We may differ on the available quality of QB in the 2014 draft, and we may differ on how important that position is relative to OL, but we all have said draft a QB with a real shot to compete for the job (i.e., not a 7th round throwaway pick).

No matter what Keenum does this year, he should have to compete for the job next year. But he should be allowed to compete for the job, given what he's shown so far. Where I disagree with people is when they've already drawn a conclusion about Keenum one way or the other. Within that subset, I have a real problem with those who have decided that Keenum is not the answer based on a mere six games, but then they want to hand the reins to Bridgewater sight unseen. That's ridiculous, inconsistent, and shows their agenda from the start.

I'd be OK if the QB had to compete for his job every single year, even if they are a guy like Brady, Rodgers, Brees, etc. If they're that good, they'll win handily. Competition breeds excellence.

 

[Rey]

So you are ready to mortgage the Texans future for the next 5 years and put it all on Keenum?

Straw man.

 

[eriadoc]

Furthermore, Schaub had to deal with half of that stuff as well..this is the hand he has been dealt, he needs to show marked improvement. All you guys are in here doing now is claiming moral victories..."look at his stats, he's doing better than this HOFer ever did"......

You're over-thinking this whole thing, and it's because you don't want Keenum. Schaub had to deal with the same stuff, yes - and the team got BLOWN OUT REPEATEDLY with him having to deal with it. Keenum has dealt with it and kept the team close. What that tells some of us is that the team is just bad. Improved QB play just got the team closer, but not over the hump. Now you can say that Keenum ought to be good enough to overcome all those problems that Schaub couldn't, but I and others think that's ridiculous to expect from a guy with so few reps.

No matter what you do in life - football, music, cooking, business, whatever - it takes a lot of reps to become your best. When I teach martial arts, I tell people they'll be able to rely on technique after 10000 reps. That's just the reality of it. Some of you want Keenum to be awesome after 6 games. Not going to happen for any QB and have staying power.

 

[Linca]

With how many holes we have on defense and our offensive line. I fear if we draft a high QB we will be missing out on a lot of talent on the other side of the ball. If we get Clowney, a good RT and focus on our secondary and linebackers, I feel we will have a much better chance to win. I think as long as Keenum keeps improving for the rest of the year our QB situation is fine. But if he regresses back to how he played against the Jags then we're gonna have a problem.

We need to solidify this offensive line and shore up our defense, hopefully with new coaches and some more talent. Hell we made Matt MgLoin look like Peyton Manning, our pass rush is awful, our secondary is getting annihilated and we have no good linebackers except Cushing.

And honestly this years QB's don't excite me at all, I don't see any franchise player except Bridgewater but whose to say that he doesn't have the same problems Case has, and he has to learn on the fly for another year? What if he totally flops and we're left with this horrible defense?

With how many spots that need filling, we can't address these imbalances by drafting mid tier talent in the later rounds. Unless Keenum gets worse over the last few games, I don't think we should draft a QB in the first few rounds.

 

[Rey]

You're over-thinking this whole thing, and it's because you don't want Keenum. Schaub had to deal with the same stuff, yes - and the team got BLOWN OUT REPEATEDLY with him having to deal with it. Keenum has dealt with it and kept the team close. What that tells some of us is that the team is just bad. Improved QB play just got the team closer, but not over the hump. Now you can say that Keenum ought to be good enough to overcome all those problems that Schaub couldn't, but I and others think that's ridiculous to expect from a guy with so few reps.

No matter what you do in life - football, music, cooking, business, whatever - it takes a lot of reps to become your best. When I teach martial arts, I tell people they'll be able to rely on technique after 10000 reps. That's just the reality of it. Some of you want Keenum to be awesome after 6 games. Not going to happen for any QB and have staying power.

That's mighty profound of you....

But I'll just chalk it up to folks not knowing what the hell they are looking at. Patriots defensive woes
aside (who cares), case looked better as a qb than he had in any previous game. He actually stepped up into the pocket against the pats instead of scrambling to the edge.

He held it a bit too long early, but you could see in the game he even made that adjustment.

All that running around, bombing it deep stuff is nice, but I loved seeing him step up into the pocket and make throws into tight coverage a few times during that game. Dude looked like he belonged.

If he builds on that going forward, that would be great and would force the team into a tough decision.

 

[eriadoc]

That's mighty profound of you....

But I'll just chalk it up to folks not knowing what the hell they are looking at. Patriots defensive word aside (who cares), case looked better as a qb than he had in any previous game. He actually stepped up into the pocket against the pats instead of scrambling to the edge.

He held it a bit too long early, but you could see in the game he even made that adjustment.

All that running around, bombing it deep stuff is nice, but I loved seeing him step up into the pocket and make throws into tight coverage a few times during that game. Dude looked like he belonged.

If he builds on that going forward, that would be great and would force the team into a tough decision.

I think you can just chalk it up to me not knowing what the hell you're talking about, because it sounds like we agree. I think Keenum looks pretty good for six games in, and I think his best football is ahead of him. I think he needs the reps to get there.

 

[deucetx]

I honestly think it's too early for any of us to make finalize it in our minds one way or another. Only thing from Keenum I have seen that I can feel confident is that the kid belongs in the league. Doesn't necessarily mean as a franchise quarterback but he's definitely at least backup material at this point. So all that UDFA stuff is irrelevant now. It's about is he worthy of building around and again, too early. He has four more games.

I will say he looked better in this game. None of those silly 20 yard sacks (exaggeration a bit). He stayed in the pocket and tried to the read the defense before reacting too quickly. The problem I am having is it is taking him too much time to read and get the ball out. Currently out of Qb's that received at least 25% of their snaps he has the slowest release to attempting a pass. It obviously isn't his throwing mechanics which are sound. So we're either looking at an issue because of inexperience (most of those around him in this area are young/inexperienced), field vision maybe due to height or he is waiting too long for guys to get open so he can make a play.

But at the same time he has shown enough for the testing of the waters to continue. Bottom line though that folks need to realize no matter where you stand...it is in the best interest of the Texans if he can take the steps forward to be the guy. Finding a franchise quarterback is not easy and there are no guarantees. It is easier to build the pieces around the QB than it is to get that guy in the end. I much rather he prove to be the man going forward so we can fill all the other holes which there are plenty.

 

[JCTexan]

I'm willing to change my mind as the season progresses and we see more of Keenum. Four more games to determine if Keenum is the guy heading into next year. On one hand I don't want the Texans to pass on a QB that could be the next Cam Newton or Andrew Luck. On the other, I don't want to be the San Diego Chargers and let Drew Brees go to get our Philip Rivers either.

 

[drs23]

That's mighty profound of you....

But I'll just chalk it up to folks not knowing what the hell they are looking at. Patriots defensive woes
aside (who cares), case looked better as a qb than he had in any previous game. He actually stepped up into the pocket against the pats instead of scrambling to the edge.

He held it a bit too long early, but you could see in the game he even made that adjustment.

All that running around, bombing it deep stuff is nice, but I loved seeing him step up into the pocket and make throws into tight coverage a few times during that game. Dude looked like he belonged.

If he builds on that going forward, that would be great and would force the team into a tough decision.

Keenum's improvement was evident and that's all I'm asking for, that he learn from his mistakes and it certainly appears that he's doing so. I took the same thing from that game that Rey is expressing above. If there's just enough patience from the next regime and (ego/testosterone) don't rule the day I think the Lad will do fine. There're two different camps at play here just like every other Texans plot. I understand that but I honestly think it's too soon to make a definitive call one way or the other.

I sat on the sideline with an empty cup on this subject but I can say in earnest that Keenum has presented very well to this point in my opinion.

Please don't peg me as a Case either. I never watched him take a snap in college. I've never espoused him to be the 'saviour' and am not doing so now. All I know about the guy is what I've observed in his time as a member of my team. Not opposed at all for him to have some competition as long as it's heads up square. (Though I've got serious doubts with a new regime and a first overall if that's what happens)

He stacks up as well as any other rook QB that I've watched mature and I think that's what's happening before us now. The Lad's maturing.

It DOES take a little time.

 

[escrimador]

In the first few games we saw what it was that Keenum brings to the table from his instinctive skillset, which was pretty exciting. The two games after looked like adjustments to what they're coaching him to do (staying in the pocket longer, letting the plays develop, going to short and intermediate routes, reading the defense) and there's been some growing pains with what he's being taught vs. being able to implement it when the bullets fly. With this last game, he's shown improvement from that standpoint and we'll see the rest of the way if it sticks. Improvement is what I want to see. Keep taking it up another notch, so to speak. Still, drafting a quarterback high would be good.

 

[76Texan]

Lots of nice posts by eriadoc and Rey.

On a side note, during draft time, Lucky (who's among those who wants to see more of Keenum) thought that he pulls up too early to scramble.
So holding the ball too long was never an issue with him.
But now, the coaches want him to trust his O-line a little more; he ends up taking the extra time.
There's a balance he needs to learn.

There are situations where great NFL QBs like Brady, Manning, and Brees take four, five, or even six seconds in the pocket.
That depends on many factors, from the type of protection call, the quality of the pass rush, whether the opponent's premier rusher is on Brown or Newton, or singled up by an interior lineman, the down and distance, field location, how much time is left, the score, etc.
All QBs need that transition time; for example, I once read that Bill Walsh didn't ask Montana to go to the third, fourth, and fifth read until quite a few years into his NFL career.