Honestly wouldn't be surprised if that dude has ever played organized sports in his life. Probably just heard stories from more bench warmers who have never got in the game.
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Martin v. Incognito: [update] Wells Report released
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Honestly wouldn't be surprised if that dude has ever played organized sports in his life. Probably just heard stories from more bench warmers who have never got in the game.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
I think the bolded holds true here. I'm like Tex4life. I would've stood up to him, taken a likely ass whoopin but prove to him I'm not going to be the easy target.
That said, different strokes for different folks. Like the ole cliche' "I'm a lover, not a fighter". I met a dude that was the baddest mofo I've seen on the field. Off the field he was tame as could be, never gave a thought to raising a fist even when severely harassed. I'm not trying to compare. Just giving a personal experience
b0ng
Bad Hombre
This is from an ABC news reporters twitter:
Sara Jane Harris @SaraJaneHarris
Oh wow... ESPN playing sound of Richie Incognito... talking about hazing Ryan Tannehill... saying he took his credit card to buy a jet ski.
Sara Jane Harris ‏@SaraJaneHarris 2h
Incognito said he felt like Tannehill "owed" him and other OL on team, because they put themselves on the line each game to protect him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Tannehill has been sacked like over 30 times this season, he should probably get a refund on those jetski's. Also, it is similar to what the mafia does.
Sara Jane Harris @SaraJaneHarris
Oh wow... ESPN playing sound of Richie Incognito... talking about hazing Ryan Tannehill... saying he took his credit card to buy a jet ski.
Sara Jane Harris ‏@SaraJaneHarris 2h
Incognito said he felt like Tannehill "owed" him and other OL on team, because they put themselves on the line each game to protect him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan Tannehill has been sacked like over 30 times this season, he should probably get a refund on those jetski's. Also, it is similar to what the mafia does.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
on mike and mike this morning they played the audio of Incognito talking about Ryan and "oh we will get our money" or something along those lines
CretorFrigg
Fire Rick Smith
At this point, he's a criminal as well as a bully.
Wow. Isn't it his job to protect the QB?
I predict Incognito ends up in prison after his football career is over and before it's all said and done.
Or dead. He threatens the wrong dude and finds himself bringing a knife to a gunfight.
ugh...I had no idea what I was clicking into!
That's a whole lotta' stupid in one place. Now I have to wonder about my IP address being connected to such a despicable site.
But, yeah, Incognito and his support group would fit right in.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
ugh...I had no idea what I was clicking into!
That's a whole lotta' stupid in one place. Now I have to wonder about my IP address being connected to such a despicable site.
But, yeah, Incognito and his support group would fit right in.
Sometimes when I'm really drunk, I'll make an account on there just to touch the poop. I don't know what is wrong with me.
silvrhand
All Pro
Sigh..
I clearly stated that Rich Incognito was wrong and a sick individual. But I'm also enough enough to know where there is smoke there is fire. Clearly somethign went on in the locker room and to what level we only know one side of the story so I'm waiting to hear the full story, if we ever do. It's highly likely Incognito was the only one involved and pushed a man to the point of where he felt like he had no other option. In my view I would have thought that it would be pretty obvious to the coaches and players what was going on, almost nothing is sacred in a locker room.
- If Martin was clearly hurting and went to his coaches/owner and nothing was done shame on them.
- If Martin bypassed and just left the team without telling anyone, probably not the right thing to do.
I personally would have given a player grief for not showing up at OTA's, if he would have explained the situation to me I would hope that I would help alleviate the issue. Trust me this isn't the first time sick invidividuals are in the locker room, go look up Charles Haley. The whole 90's cowboys were a locker room disaster.
chicagotexan2
Easterby = Little Finger/Cal = Fredo Corleone
What keeps coming to mind is the Gilbert arenas and Jabaris crittenton incident. Two idiots take an idiotic beef to new lows. I don't see Martin escalating a fight to the point where guns are drawn but a stupid animal like incognito probably would. Fighting incognito or smacking him in the mouth would not resolve any issues with that sack of schit.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
I do believe Martin and his family are highly educated, more so when compared to the avg nfl pro and their family. It wouldnt shock me in the least if Martin was raised not to fight back physically
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
This mentality is part of them problem
He had to pay that much to his teammates because he didn't show up for OTa's and that was the way his teammates decided to punish Martin. Is that wrong? Of course it is.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
I wasnt aware the players were required to make payments to others when they missed otas
what was the cause of the phins defensive rookie who got stuck with a 30k tab? Are you making up otas for that one too?
toronto
Hall of Fame
Sometimes I think the only people qualified to speak on this are ones that have been bullied. They know and can relate to the dark place Martin was in. That said, I don't think he was insensitive.
Shouldn't have worn that short skirt!
Oh wait, wrong topic.
Blaming the victim just perpetuates the stupidity.
So where is the line in the sand to stand up for yourself? What if fist fighting Incognito changes nothing? Then what? Bring a knife? Shoot the bastard? What do you do to get a sociopath to leave you alone short of maiming or killing him?
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
His whole argument in regards to "you're not a freshman in college anymore, you're a grown ass man," is backwards. Maybe when you are younger, you will have a higher chance of actually fighting back. When you are older, you are more mature and understand that it accomplishes nothing to fight a guy like Incognito.
It's pure stupidity and immaturity by Antrel Rolle to put any blame on Martin.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I think a mild bully you hit back and it's over . Richie is more like Dracula where you would have to put a stake in him . That's why the Dolphins have been bad . It's more about taking rookies manhood or visa card than it is about building a team .
I wonder what Jake Long thinks about it ?
You're right, and honestly I make a ton of bad decisions all the time. I applaud Martin for his courage to walk away. I just couldn't do it though.
On another note Antrell Rolle is an idiot. Guys like that don't even need to be given a platform to speak.
There's a story on PFT right now about the Dolphins coaches wanting Incognito to toughen Martin up.
So it looks like my deductive reasoning may have been correct.
Didn't read the whole thread, just wanted to put my two cents in.
1) I agree with anyone who says a grown man shouldn't be the victim of bullying. Especially not one of the bigger guys on an NFL football team that you expect a high level of toughness from.
2) $15,000.... that's not hazing. That's criminal & I'm surprised Incognito isn't behind bars right now.
1) I agree with anyone who says a grown man shouldn't be the victim of bullying. Especially not one of the bigger guys on an NFL football team that you expect a high level of toughness from.
2) $15,000.... that's not hazing. That's criminal & I'm surprised Incognito isn't behind bars right now.
So you don't like his opinion on this situation, and therefor you think his opportunity to express his opinion should be revoked, right ?
Hey, I suspect it's MOL the opinion of the majority of NFL players. Bet if you'd ask what another hard-azz NFL CB like the Texans Kareem Jackson thinks you'd get the same kinda comments.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ing-jonathan-martin-richie-incognito/3449621/
*****
Gannon's remarks are particular instructive as he points out the value of strong leadership, be it from a HC like Marty Schottenheimer or a leader on the field like Peyton Manning.
Hey if it gets racial, it's definitely over the line. And if it's illegal, well it's illegal. Short of that, where's the line ? You tell me ?
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
The line is where your employer/the law says it it. It's just the way it is, this is how it's always been, it's a football thing or male thing is just an excuse for poor behavior. The nfl and it's teams are employers and have to afford some protection to its employees and while we see it as a game it's not that simple
chicagotexan2
Easterby = Little Finger/Cal = Fredo Corleone
Im with you in that I can say Martin did the right thing, but I don't think I'd be able to show the same level of restraint. And that decision would cost me my job. And at the end og the day Incognito would still win.
The law is a constant marker/line for behavior, but apparently not so the employer as Gannon points out here the disparity between a KC and an Oakland.
RazorOye
Ayo
why not?
I keep seeing this sentiment pop up and to de-contextualize it this way seems to miss the importance of power and its structure in the situation. The nature of the abuse/harassment takes place with a lot of other complicit bodies and a power structure in a locker room. The clout that Incognito (allegedly) had speaks volumes about how that power dynamic played out.
All of this armchair quarterbacking, er.... offensive tackling (?) after the fact about what he should or should not have done seems beside that point.
Martin inverted the power dynamic.
All of the "He shoulda wooped that guy" is about one thing, right? Turning the tables on the bully. Challenging that power hierarchy.
You know what else does that? And does it even better? Doing what Martin did. Let's say he stands up to him - he risks getting his butt kicked and the same thing just continues in perpetuity. Or until Incognito is gone or wears out his welcome. Again.
Let's say Martin wins. Does that stop Incognito? Doubtful. Maybe I'm psychoanalyzing here, but going with his history, I think it's a reasonable conclusion.
Doing it this way, the power dynamic is completely changed in a more effective and permanent way. It's shifted. I know Martin is a well read dude. Maybe he was reading Sun Tzu or Mind**** Your Enemies For Dummies. I don't know.
BUt I do know that the cretin that occupied the top of the power structure is now having to (in his words) "weather the storm." That doesn't happen if Martin fights him, win, lose, or draw.
And Martin risked a lot by taking the tact he did. I think calling him a "coward" or trying to depict this as "walking away" is an oversimplification and ignores the gravity in the choice that he made. (edit: this is a general comment, silvr - not directed at you. Actually, that goes for a bit of this post, using yours as a sort of launching point rather than a direct response/contradiction)
So far it looks to me like he did the "right" thing in a lot of ways. Incognito loses power in more than an interim basis. We have a broader social discussion of this type of issue - the discussion has transcended the NFL and has even been mentioned in the context of schools. Martin challenges and complicates (and potentially reverses, in some ways) his portrayal as simply victim and becomes partly advocate.
I have trouble faulting Martin for any of his decisions and his choice has changed the dynamics of the power relationship in a way that wouldn't have been remotely possible in the locker room itself.
2012Champs
Hall of Fame
And that's the goddamn neanderthal mentality that makes guys like Aaron Hernandez and his whole "respect" schtick think they can literally get away with murder. If you think that conduct doesn't stem from the same dark place, you're sorely mistaken.
A thousand times this.
After listening to Travis Johnson this morning, it simply affirms my belief that some of these cretins just don't get it. Evidently the only way to "man up" in this situation is to try and beat the Hell out of Incognito. Never once did I hear "well yeah, the system is broke". Nope, I heard the same machismo bull**** that leads to gang shootings.
Hell, I'm not the type that believes that violence never solves anything, and I truly wish that Martin had pounded Incognito into next week. That said, you can't fix the mentality without a huge paradigm shift in the way that locker rooms are maintained in the NFL. "Boys will be Boys" gets us gang warfare, rape culture, and now this. That NFL players think Martin "brought this upon himself" speaks volumes about how far the behavior must shift to be anywhere close to societal normal.
I don't see how Martin will play in the nfl again.
Incognito is an idiot. We know that. But you can't be in a locker room and be a lamb. You don't have to be a predator, but you definitely can't be the prey. If I'm a player on the team, I'm skeptical about this guy playing next to me because I don't know if things get sketchy if this guy will wilt because the opposing players are intimidating him. If you see a guy twisting my ankle are you going to have the audacity to push him off if me?
I have no issue with Martin as a human being. I have no issue with anyone that won't fight, gets intimidated, or just avoids confrontation (I don't know if that's the case here). But just speaking from a football perspective, or anything that involves going into a hostile environment....you want to be with people that will boss up.
All that said, incognito should be suspended by the team...not the nfl. The team shouldn't want that kind of behavior going on in their locker rooms.
Incognito is an idiot. We know that. But you can't be in a locker room and be a lamb. You don't have to be a predator, but you definitely can't be the prey. If I'm a player on the team, I'm skeptical about this guy playing next to me because I don't know if things get sketchy if this guy will wilt because the opposing players are intimidating him. If you see a guy twisting my ankle are you going to have the audacity to push him off if me?
I have no issue with Martin as a human being. I have no issue with anyone that won't fight, gets intimidated, or just avoids confrontation (I don't know if that's the case here). But just speaking from a football perspective, or anything that involves going into a hostile environment....you want to be with people that will boss up.
All that said, incognito should be suspended by the team...not the nfl. The team shouldn't want that kind of behavior going on in their locker rooms.
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/...-coaches-told-incognito-to-toughen-up-martin/
******
Who else remembers one Seth Wand, former Houston Texans' offensive lineman and one time starting LT for the team ? There's some definite similarities here.
IlliniJen
Hall of Fame
One doesn't "toughen" up to beat depression. You don't "nut up" and get over depression.
Sounds like another athlete falls victim to a sport and a macho mentality that is ill equipped to deal with a COMMON psychological issue like depression. Sounds like the NFL needs to ditch pink October and do something to raise mental health awareness.
This is a good post Jen..... I've played with guys who were "different". They did get messed with I'm not going to lie. At the end of the day I don't care what you do off of the field. I do need you to be a warrior on the field though. If a guy doesn't stand up for himself off of the field I'm not going to think he won't on it. To me they're 2 different environments. I'm a crazy, competitive person who goes off on you when I'm playing, but I'm super laid back off the field. We need to accept those who are different and not put them in a box.
Or maybe sounds like an athlete who's ill equipped to deal with the macho mentality of the NFL, atleast that's what some other league vets are wondering ?
Martin broke the lockerroom code. I doubt he plays for the Dolphins, or any other teams in the NFL.
Hiring Martin is more trouble than it's worth and very few of his teammates will respect him if he tries to play for another team. Martin effectively killed his career, but he reversed the power structure. Not that football ever meant that much to him in the 1st place.
The lockeroom attitudes are also why gay players will never come out of the closet.
Great comparison.
Everyone keeps saying punch a bully in the face, but what if that bully has antisocial personality disorder (basically a sociopath).
Beating them only feeds the beast and elevates the situation to new levels of depravity.
For instance, the Robert De Niro character in Cape Fear: Bully or sociopath/psychopath?
[IMGwidthsize=300]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ksn8kvrKi31qzexpio1_500.jpg[/IMG]
The normal "rules of engagement" for dealing with typical bullies do not apply or work with sociopaths.
And this is where I think the story has become lost in translation. Incognito was more than just a bully. Dude crossed so many lines that his behavior goes into the category of mental depravity. This kind of mind does not hear reason, does not respond to respect, does not back down in confrontation or even getting his own ass kicked in.
Johnathan Martin's teammates have said he has stood up for himself and fought other linemen. Dude is not the wimp he's being portrayed.
But who here is really equipped to deal with a sociopath that is threatening to sexually assault your mother?
Awesome point, but we know it will never happen. Pink month is about marketing as much as anything else. Shedding light on the mental health of players carries risks that could "damage the shield". While I think your suggestion is one of the best I've heard as it pertains to the league taking care of players, we know it will never happen because the NFL likes to bury its dirty laundry and act like nothing happened.
Haha, what locker room code did he break? He walked away and had to explain why he walked away. He had racial and death threats thrown his way........ man I hope you have a son that deals with the same crap and think locker room code needs to be upheld. Locker room code is a brotherhood. I would never make my brother feel less like a man. The idiots bringing up this stuff don't know what they're talking about.
Haha, what locker room code did you break? He walked away and had to explain why he walked away. He had racial and death threats thrown his way........ man I hope you have a son that deals with the same crap and think locker room code needs to be upheld. Locker room code is a brotherhood. I would never make my brother feel less like a man. The idiots bringing up this stuff don't know what they're talking about.
The agreement here is unanimous that if Incognito made racial threats or certainly if there was anything illicit in nature, then absolutely a line had been crossed. Now it's down to a definitive statement of where the line is for the rest of it, the bullying, the intimidation, or however you choose to describe it.
RazorOye
Ayo
**** the locker room "code" and the default belief that treats abuse as permissive because it happens in a locker room. Did McQueary fear violating the locker room "code"? I'm with Jen who thinks that maybe we need to take a look at the broken-ness of this mentality.
there's nothing special about the sanctity of a locker room as a space that's held above or different from other spaces. It doesn't (or, rather, shouldn't) be some area of default immunity for extreme sources of harassment or abuse or bullying or whatever else.
I played. I am coaching. I'm in a locker room all the time.
I 'get' the locker room. But there are things that transcend the locker room and go beyond the code.
What makes the locker room different from any other work place or team spot?
"Teacher's Lounge code"?
"Executive Board Meeting code"?
You know who else broke the locker room "code"? Incognito. Phone messages. Texts. Even assuming you're right (and I think it's a cop out, personally) and the locker room is some sort of hallowed ground where anything goes and should be kept private, then doesn't Incognito lose that once he breaches the locker room?
How is what Martin did a violation of this floating, arbitrary definition of a coded space but not what Incognito did?
Before closing, I'll make one thing clear. Martin may very well never play another down in the NFL or suit up for another team. And maybe you'll once again fall all over yourself in an attempt to clap yourself on the back for being "right." That might be a correct guess on your part.
But that's ignoring the larger issue. And that's one where you're wrong.
For me there is nothing to talk about. I've seen hazing going on and seen guys beat up. It was stupid then and its stupid now. If one of those guys would have said something and the people responsible for it would have been punished I wouldn't think less of them. That's honestly the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I loved every teammate I've ever played with. I always welcomed them with open arms and let them know that whatever they needed I'll help them. To me thats locker room code. A guy does have to earn his stripes and he should go through a little ribbing, but it should all be in fun. All this other BS to me is people who are losers in life trying to make it more than what it needs to be.
IlliniJen
Hall of Fame
The other vets and their "code" are all part of a systemic disease that helps breed and nurture horrible human beings like Incognito.
There are a number of successful programs in the NFL and strong head coaches who ban hazing from their team and somehow they manage to do quite well and win Superbowls.
There's something inherently dysfunctional in the social structure and mores of a culture that relies on brutish behavior to force others to get in line with everyone else. Other teams have built cultures around brotherhood without using a stick to do so...Miami seems to have encouraged a culture of trying to prod a kid to be like everyone else while making no attempt to understand why he might not be like everyone else.
This kid needed a mentor and a brother, and instead he got "Hulk smash!" from one of the least respected players in the game who has been kicked out of every organization he's been with.
eriadoc
Texan-American
I just feel the need to point out that Antonio Smith has stood up to Incognito several times in his career, dating back to his time with the Cards. Hasn't stopped Incognito from being a bully toward him. In fact, not only did it not stop Incognito, but a significant segment of the NFL watching populace considered Smith's retaliation unacceptable, and he was fined and suspended for it. So for his efforts, Smith lost money, the team lost a player for a game, and he still has to deal with Incognito.
Yeah, that punch him in the mouth thing works real well, huh?
Yeah, that punch him in the mouth thing works real well, huh?
htownfan32
Hall of Fame
MSR, man.
toronto
Hall of Fame
You don't know that.
But one thing for sure is I'll never encourage my sons to play football. Its clearly not worth it. There are better ways to learn life lessons than this crap, and thats before we even get into actual football injuries.