Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍

TJ Yates vs Case Keenum (Training Camp/Pre season 2013)

Says Schottenheimer/Jimmy Johnson/Shula (2 yrs after going 13-1,) Todd Haley and Lovie Smith fired this yr after winning 10 games. Firing successful HC's being fired isn't as uncommon as you might think. It is around Texans land though.

BTW, I was against firing Gary this offseason. I actually think he did a masterful job coacing a team with a hurt QB/WR and had depth issues to a 12-4 record.

Dude, weak attempt. It is very uncommon, exceptionally uncommon and then if you want to top that off show where the results got better?

Shottenheimer - now he was legitimately fired but the team benefited how? Playoff team went a few more times and then tumbled and fired the new coach.

Jimmy Johnson - please for even including this one. JJ did not get fired. Basically the Cowboys floundered since the team JJ built.

Shula - not fired - retired.

Haley - fired mid-season the next year after a WC appearance.

Lovie - hasn't made the playoffs in three years.

The only one that came close to answering my question was Shottenheimer. This shows how biased you are in your analysis. I mean seriously, you typed in Jimmy Johnson and didn't Homer Simpson yourself?
 
Last edited:
I've watched keenum throw a bunch of passes and the dude throws darts. Especially on those short passes.

Same kind of qb in terms of threatning the field as schaub. He cant throw outside with velocity. U can pull up any film and u cant find a deep comeback.
 
Same kind of qb in terms of threatning the field as schaub. He cant throw outside with velocity. U can pull up any film and u cant find a deep comeback.

jmo..... but Schaub's biggest weakness is that the play is over once protection breaks down. Fortunately for us, he's pretty good at getting rid of the ball before that happens.

There are better QBs out there at making something happen when it all goes to sht, but they're not as good before that point.

Replacing Schaub, we may very well get someone who is better when a play breaks down. I believe that's what Yates gives us & some are saying Keenum as well. Surely, Keenum can't be worse.

But there is going to be a drop off on working our offense before a play breaks down, there's no way around that. Schaub is that good, at that point. Not many better.

We've seen Yates & I agree with those who believe the drop off will be severe. From what I've seen of Case & the general expectations of him on this board, I believe the general consensus is that drop off will not be so severe (as opposed to Yates).

So not being able to throw a deep come-back won't really hurt us so much, if he can manage the offense similar to Schaub & give us some of that play-making ability.
 
Dude, weak attempt. It is very uncommon, exceptionally uncommon and then if you want to top that off show where the results got better?

Shottenheimer - now he was legitimately fired but the team benefited how? Playoff team went a few more times and then tumbled and fired the new coach.

Jimmy Johnson - please for even including this one. JJ did not get fired. Basically the Cowboys floundered since the team JJ built.

Shula - not fired - retired.

Haley - fired mid-season the next year after a WC appearance.

Lovie - hasn't made the playoffs in three years.

The only one that came close to answering my question was Shottenheimer. This shows how biased you are in your analysis. I mean seriously, you typed in Jimmy Johnson and didn't Homer Simpson yourself?

If the team has 8 talent and they play as a 5 , the coach is on the hotseat . If the team has 5 talent and they play as an 8 , extend his contract .

JJ had 9 talent and won the SB . Jerrah and Jack ( Daniels ) undermined Jimmy .
 
I thought this was a thread discussing whether Yates or Keenum should be #2 on the depth chart...

Where did we go off the rails?
How did this devolve into a fire Kubiak thread??
Who's responsible for this?
:toropalm:


I think Bush did it.

Let me check with axeman and get back to you.

:coffee:
 
If the team has 8 talent and they play as a 5 , the coach is on the hotseat . If the team has 5 talent and they play as an 8 , extend his contract .

JJ had 9 talent and won the SB . Jerrah and Jack ( Daniels ) undermined Jimmy .

So what are you saying? That Jerrah fired JJ after winning the SuperBowl ?

Or do you agree with 'cak that JJ wasn't fired, but elected to retire?

The premise that 'cak is arguing is that it is common for 12 win coaches to get fired. JJ is a bad example of that, since he didn't get fired & his GM was not dissatisfied with the level of play from the team; i.e. the coaches job performance.
 
So what are you saying? That Jerrah fired JJ after winning the SuperBowl ?

Or do you agree with 'cak that JJ wasn't fired, but elected to retire?

The premise that 'cak is arguing is that it is common for 12 win coaches to get fired. JJ is a bad example of that, since he didn't get fired & his GM was not dissatisfied with the level of play from the team; i.e. the coaches job performance.

Jerrah said that JJ got to much credit and Barry Switzer could do the same thing . Jerrah was jealous of JJ .

A 12 win team who is stacked , is under performing and can get fired if they are a bust in the playoffs . It's all about the owners expectations or lack of .

Why did Bum get fired ?
 
Jerrah said that JJ got to much credit and Barry Switzer could do the same thing . Jerrah was jealous of JJ .

Moot point..... doesn't matter. Jerry Jones did not fire Jimmy Johnson.

A 12 win team who is stacked , is under performing and can get fired if they are a bust in the playoffs . It's all about the owners expectations or lack of .

Why did Bum get fired ?

So you're saying there are a plethora of coaches out there who were fired after a 12 win season?
 
Moot point..... doesn't matter. Jerry Jones did not fire Jimmy Johnson.



So you're saying there are a plethora of coaches out there who were fired after a 12 win season?

Nope ... if I'm the owner and think we have gone as far as my present coach can take me , I'm making changes . Sometimes there's a fine line between smart and stupid and it all depends on the results .
 
The stories I have heard also lend themselves to JJ retiring. If I worked for Jerruh, I would also take retiring over the alternative...............i.e., shooting myself.
 
OK, where are the examples of it being smart based on the results?

Off the top of my head , I don't think it's worked out in the NFL . I think the psyche of a football team is so different and each coach needs his own players . Parcells takes over a team and starts bringing in his guys who buy into his system .

I cheated some , Tampa Bay fired Tony Dungy because of playoff failures ( 9-7 ) and win the SB the next year .

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/132195
 
jmo..... but Schaub's biggest weakness is that the play is over once protection breaks down. Fortunately for us, he's pretty good at getting rid of the ball before that happens.

There are better QBs out there at making something happen when it all goes to sht, but they're not as good before that point.

Replacing Schaub, we may very well get someone who is better when a play breaks down. I believe that's what Yates gives us & some are saying Keenum as well. Surely, Keenum can't be worse.

But there is going to be a drop off on working our offense before a play breaks down, there's no way around that. Schaub is that good, at that point. Not many better.

We've seen Yates & I agree with those who believe the drop off will be severe. From what I've seen of Case & the general expectations of him on this board, I believe the general consensus is that drop off will not be so severe (as opposed to Yates).

So not being able to throw a deep come-back won't really hurt us so much, if he can manage the offense similar to Schaub & give us some of that play-making ability.

I agree to a certain. I agree tj probably have the best feet and arm and I think minus experiende, he is pretty good upgrade to schaub. I do think not being to throw deep comebacks, digs, and outs restrict the offense. I mean, brady cants throws same routes either, but they score a lot points except in the post season.
 
I do think not being to throw deep comebacks, digs, and outs restrict the offense.

I meant more that it wouldn't restrict us anymore than it already does. As you said, Case's arm & Schaub's arm.... not a lot of difference.

Still, we manage to score a lot of points, even last year when we weren't playing our best offensively. I expect that to continue, especially when we get that right side of the line figured out.

Heck, if Case can get around on those bootlegs faster than the old man, we might score more points there as well.
 
I meant more that it wouldn't restrict us anymore than it already does. As you said, Case's arm & Schaub's arm.... not a lot of difference.

Still, we manage to score a lot of points, even last year when we weren't playing our best offensively. I expect that to continue, especially when we get that right side of the line figured out.

Heck, if Case can get around on those bootlegs faster than the old man, we might score more points there as well.

A defense may have to actually respect a run from a bootleg .
 
[
@HoustonTexans OTAs: Team did more redzone work. Kubiak noted he liked to give different young guys opps w/1s, like Case Keenum today.
[/COLOR]

When you get a chance to run with the 1's you have a legit shot at climbing up the depth chart/making the team.

I think this year we are going to keep 3 QB's. If one of them has to play I expect Yates to get first dibs unless Keenum just wow's in pre-season. I think Kubiak really likes Keenum though.
 
Heck, if Case can get around on those bootlegs faster than the old man, we might score more points there as well.

A defense may have to actually respect a run from a bootleg .

Normal zone bootleg:

bootleg1.jpg


Schaub's bootleg:

bootleg2.jpg
 
I just heard on Texans Huddle that Yates had elbow tendonitis throughout the entire season in 2012. Is this common knowledge? It's the first I had heard of it.

If that's the case, I expect a better performance from him this preseason (though I still think Keenum will win the backup spot).
 
I just heard on Texans Huddle that Yates had elbow tendonitis throughout the entire season in 2012. Is this common knowledge? It's the first I had heard of it.

If that's the case, I expect a better performance from him this preseason (though I still think Keenum will win the backup spot).

He was on the Injury Reports for a "right elbow" from the 9th week to the end of the season.
 
Why is Yates getting time off during the mini-camp?

HE'S 2ND STRING! He's not a veteran (3rd year), he's not the starter. He should want every single rep he can get.

This only shows (to me) that Kubiak wants Keenum to end up being our #2 QB. Yates shouldn't be taking the day off he should be trying to get better. Get in sync with his new WR's and even help the timing with his current WR's.

Yates sitting out of mini-camp means that he really is fine being our #2 and never trying to start or he has some sort of injury that we don't know about.

I don't believe that Keenum is better than Yates but it makes no sense to have him taking time off. He should be trying to push Schaub.
 
Why is Yates getting time off during the mini-camp?

HE'S 2ND STRING! He's not a veteran (3rd year), he's not the starter. He should want every single rep he can get.

This only shows (to me) that Kubiak wants Keenum to end up being our #2 QB. Yates shouldn't be taking the day off he should be trying to get better. Get in sync with his new WR's and even help the timing with his current WR's.

Yates sitting out of mini-camp means that he really is fine being our #2 and never trying to start or he has some sort of injury that we don't know about.

I don't believe that Keenum is better than Yates but it makes no sense to have him taking time off. He should be trying to push Schaub.

FWIW,

Curiously, the NEW CBA under Article I Definitions:

“Rookie” means a person who has never before signed a Player Contract with an NFL Club. The first Player Contract signed by such person is a “Rookie Contract.”

“Veteran” means a player who has signed at least one Player Contract with an NFL Club.
 
Why is Yates getting time off during the mini-camp?

HE'S 2ND STRING! He's not a veteran (3rd year), he's not the starter. He should want every single rep he can get.

This only shows (to me) that Kubiak wants Keenum to end up being our #2 QB. Yates shouldn't be taking the day off he should be trying to get better. Get in sync with his new WR's and even help the timing with his current WR's.

Yates sitting out of mini-camp means that he really is fine being our #2 and never trying to start or he has some sort of injury that we don't know about.

I don't believe that Keenum is better than Yates but it makes no sense to have him taking time off. He should be trying to push Schaub.

It's interesting to note that McClain yesterday commented that maybe Keenum doesn't make back up QB this year, but he gets the strong feeling from the Texans that they see Keenum, not Yates, as Schaub's eventual successor.
 
It's interesting to note that McClain yesterday commented that maybe Keenum doesn't make back up QB this year, but he gets the strong feeling from the Texans that they see Keenum, not Yates, as Schaub's eventual successor.

Kubiak has a history of taking UDFAs and letting them develop into weapons.

Obviously, there's Arian but there's also Rod Smith. Maybe it's time he does the same thing for a QB. :thinking:

I'm not a Keenum-fan like 76Texan and I'm not expecting this outcome but I wouldn't mind if we get a surprise upgrade at QB.
 
Kubiak has a history of taking UDFAs and letting them develop into weapons.

Obviously, there's Arian but there's also Rod Smith. Maybe it's time he does the same thing for a QB. :thinking:

I'm not a Keenum-fan like 76Texan and I'm not expecting this outcome but I wouldn't mind if we get a surprise upgrade at QB.

UDFA status aside, every QB that's played under Kubiak has had their best years under Kubiak. Something to be said for that.
 
UDFA status aside, every QB that's played under Kubiak has had their best years under Kubiak. Something to be said for that.

In part because he chooses and grooms his QBs FOR his system, which in turn is a QB-friendly which can turn a good QB into a very good QB.........and, hopefully, someday can turn a very good QB into an elite QB.
 
UDFA status aside, every QB that's played under Kubiak has had their best years under Kubiak. Something to be said for that.

Matt Leinhert was a beast at handoffs in that one half he played.

He also threw is decent TD pass in that half.

Not to mention that in the 28+ minutes that Leinart actually played for Kubiak, his passer rating was 110.1, his completion percentage was 76.9, and his TD to interception ratio was not even capable of being defined. :kitten:
 
It's interesting to note that McClain yesterday commented that maybe Keenum doesn't make back up QB this year, but he gets the strong feeling from the Texans that they see Keenum, not Yates, as Schaub's eventual successor.
When I mentioned in a much earlier post that I could see Schaub leaving after 2014 and Yates being traded within next two seasons, I was considered a nut. In that post I mentioned Keenum training behind Matt for next two seasons and Texans drafting a QB 2014, IIRC. Keenum as back up & getting a draft pick for Yates would be awesome then eliminating Schaub's contract would be awesome. Even better if we could get a pick or two for MS.
 
When I mentioned in a much earlier post that I could see Schaub leaving after 2014 and Yates being traded within next two seasons, I was considered a nut. In that post I mentioned Keenum training behind Matt for next two seasons and Texans drafting a QB 2014, IIRC. Keenum as back up & getting a draft pick for Yates would be awesome then eliminating Schaub's contract would be awesome. Even better if we could get a pick or two for MS.

I don't EXPECT it to happen. I'm pretty sure it won't... but that doesn't mean I don't think it would be awesome if it did.
 
I don't EXPECT it to happen. I'm pretty sure it won't... but that doesn't mean I don't think it would be awesome if it did.

That's how I feel about Keenum. I'll believe it when I see it, but I do want to see it and will keep cheering for him as long as he's on the team.
 
IMHO, Keenum has loads more talent than Yates, he just lacks the "tangible" of size. If Keenum was 6'3"+, we wouldn't be having this conversation. He would've gone in the top 3 rounds of his draft class. The ONLY question on Keenum would be the offense he used in college.

I think the "intangibles" of leadership abilities and overcoming the "tangible" of size works in Keenum's favor. I can see him as Schaub's successor more so than Yates.
 
IMHO, Keenum has loads more talent than Yates, he just lacks the "tangible" of size. If Keenum was 6'3"+, we wouldn't be having this conversation. He would've gone in the top 3 rounds of his draft class. The ONLY question on Keenum would be the offense he used in college.

I think the "intangibles" of leadership abilities and overcoming the "tangible" of size works in Keenum's favor. I can see him as Schaub's successor more so than Yates.
There were tall defensive opponents for Keenum in college and he was outstanding. Sure NFL defenses will be better but so will Texans offense. Case did not have an Andre to throw to or OD. Nor did he have a Foster to hand off to or Duane Brown blocking. IMO, Case look at this offense and grins. I think as far as leadership, Keenum will bring it all and I will compare him to a Peyton Manning as a field general compared year to year based on experience. It may be crystal ball but two more seasons behind Matt should really season him.
 
It may be crystal ball but two more seasons behind Matt should really season him.

If he's not going to be ready for the next two years, he's not the guy.

Now if he's ready this year, just waiting for an opportunity... I can buy that.

There will most likely be an opportunity in 2013 for someone to step up & replace Matt.
 
If he's not going to be ready for the next two years, he's not the guy.

Now if he's ready this year, just waiting for an opportunity... I can buy that.

There will most likely be an opportunity in 2013 for someone to step up & replace Matt.
TK, I enjoy reading your posts but what are you talking about? Keenum has one year on practice squad. Don't you agree most QBs need 1-2 years of significant playing time before starting? Two more seasons behind Matt should be perfect.

Edit: no one will have opportunity to replace Schaub barring injury.
 
TK, I enjoy reading your posts but what are you talking about? Keenum has one year on practice squad. Don't you agree most QBs need 1-2 years of significant playing time before starting? Two more seasons behind Matt should be perfect.

Not sure how you consider being behind Schaub to be significant playing time. But to answer your question waiting 2-3 years on a QB is a rarity now.
 
And the game has suffered for it, IMO.

When were these halcyon days of QB's sitting around for years? I don't recall Bradshaw, Elway, Montana, Manning, Marino, Kelly sitting around for years watching.

I'll spot you Staubach but that was a rather unique situation all around.
 
LOL...Cak, you are the one that said it's a rarity now....

Saying it's a rarity now indicates that you didn't think it used to be.
 
TK, I enjoy reading your posts but what are you talking about? Keenum has one year on practice squad. Don't you agree most QBs need 1-2 years of significant playing time before starting? Two more seasons behind Matt should be perfect.

Edit: no one will have opportunity to replace Schaub barring injury.

1-2 years... yeah. 3 years..... no.

Aaron Rodgers sat on the bench for 3 years & I'm sure he's better for it. But I think he was probably ready at the end of year 1, just didn't have an opportunity.

If Keenum isn't ready at the end of this season, I don't think he will be. That's all I'm saying. If he doesn't get on the field before the 2015 season because Matt's the starter & continues to be healthy through the end of the 2014 season, so be it. That's a different story.

Matt played 18 games last season (not counting preseason), the chances of him doing that in 2013... slim. Someone is going to get on that field in his place, if it's Yates, he's been here long enough, we should be able to tell if he's ready to start in the NFL or not.

If Keenum Leap frogs Yates & he gets that opportunity... that's Kubiak saying Keenum is ready. If he falls on his face, he falls on his face.

Time to move on.
 
1-2 years... yeah. 3 years..... no.

Aaron Rodgers sat on the bench for 3 years & I'm sure he's better for it. But I think he was probably ready at the end of year 1, just didn't have an opportunity.

If Keenum isn't ready at the end of this season, I don't think he will be. That's all I'm saying. If he doesn't get on the field before the 2015 season because Matt's the starter & continues to be healthy through the end of the 2014 season, so be it. That's a different story.

Matt played 18 games last season (not counting preseason), the chances of him doing that in 2013... slim. Someone is going to get on that field in his place, if it's Yates, he's been here long enough, we should be able to tell if he's ready to start in the NFL or not.

If Keenum Leap frogs Yates & he gets that opportunity... that's Kubiak saying Keenum is ready. If he falls on his face, he falls on his face.

Time to move on.
I'll go on record as saying that Keenum will be the starter by 2015 if Schaub doesn't take us to the Super Bowl by then.

If this were another team, I could see Yates getting traded by then but the Texans don't believe in that. They'd rather cut players and eat dead money or just let a player walk.
 
LOL...Cak, you are the one that said it's a rarity now....

Saying it's a rarity now indicates that you didn't think it used to be.

QFT, but I'll play anyway.

First rounders have never sat. Oh, I'm sure someone will come up with an example, so whatever, but the trend has not been for first rounders to sit and develop. But teams used to have guys sitting that they'd develop behind the starter. Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't, but there used to be a higher percentage of QBs drafted in later rounds that sat and developed for a couple years. They'd get some mop-up time or maybe start a few games if the starter went down, and then later in their career, they'd turn into decent starters, sometimes very good. Even the guys that started early often saw limited spot duty in their rookie year.

Circumstances vary, but I can think of Steve Young, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler, Stan Humphries, Elvis Grbac, and Lynn Dickey. I'm sure if I looked far enough into it, I could come up with some more. A few of these guys were drafted really late, but some were drafted in the 3rd-ish rounds. Coaches worked with them in the hopes that they'd develop and some of them did. Now teams spend a ton on their starter and don't bother too much to develop a later round guy. It happens, but it's not as common as it used to be.

Maybe it wasn't exactly common back then, but as the game has increasingly put skirts on the QBs and the paychecks have risen at the position, teams put a much lower emphasis on ensuring there's a real viable option at backup. The Colts are the extreme example - hell, they had exactly no one behind Peyton Manning for years.
 
Back
Top