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TJ Yates vs Case Keenum (Training Camp/Pre season 2013)
- Thread starter Rey
- Start date
badboy
Hall of Fame
If we can develop starting QB and corners from our roster that would sure help our next draft plan.
I think Case could easily be a better QB than Schaub if given time. I'm not sure about Yates. He has the tools, but he makes some head scratching decisions sometimes. I'd like for him to be a little more reserved at times.
I think Case if very smart, reads defenses fast and is very accurate.
I'm interested in seeing them both compete for the back up job.
If something happened and one of them had to take some time being the number 1 QB, I would not panic. It might be a little bumpy here and there, but I don't think Schaub brings so much to the table that if you lose him your season outlook significantly changes.
The offense doesn't revolve around what he brings to the table as the QB like in some other offenses.
Don't get me wrong....I'd rather have Schaub. But I honestly don't believe the team greatly suffers when he's out. I think we are a bit worse overall...But I think we are about the same.
I think Case if very smart, reads defenses fast and is very accurate.
I'm interested in seeing them both compete for the back up job.
If something happened and one of them had to take some time being the number 1 QB, I would not panic. It might be a little bumpy here and there, but I don't think Schaub brings so much to the table that if you lose him your season outlook significantly changes.
The offense doesn't revolve around what he brings to the table as the QB like in some other offenses.
Don't get me wrong....I'd rather have Schaub. But I honestly don't believe the team greatly suffers when he's out. I think we are a bit worse overall...But I think we are about the same.
It should be telling when we see who gets the most snaps in preseason. Like you, I'm intrigued.
As to another post that stated that we didn't see Yates even when there were opportunities to play him, I say that's kinda smart by Kubiak (barring Schaub getting injured in garbage time) because it never lets a real QB controversy start. If Yates came in and did some really good things, the next time Schaub had a bad game, people would be screaming for Yates.
The only reservation I have about drafting Schaub's replacement now, is that I don't think we're ready for it. I don't want to be in a position where we have to give up an entire draft to get our starter.
Even though Washington had a good draft in 2012, & 2013 I would've been uncomfortable with that. After watching RG3 his rookie year, not so much. But they still had a crap load of picks in both years.
I liked how Denver was able to move up & get Cutler, I would have been fine with a move like that.
I'd have liked to have seen RickSmith start stockpiling future picks the last couple of years so we would be able to do something like that, if we saw our guy somewhere in the 5 to 15 range.
At the same time, I like how Holmgren was able to get Hasselbeck, who I've always liked as a starting QB, when he was in Seattle. Payton wanted to bring Romo with him when he went to N.O. that would have been interesting. Them getting Brees, that was a "stars aligning" kind of thing, you usually don't see that kind of player available in FA. & we've done pretty good with Schaub and that only cost us two 2nds.... & with QBs like Kolb, Flyn, Palmer, & the like out there, I think our options will probably extend beyond the draft.
But no, I'm not worried about starting Yates/Keenum if it comes down to it. We'll win some, we'll lose some but at the end of the day, we'll move forward... I think.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
The thing about QBs is , how many frogs do you have to kiss before you get a prince ? I'm not sure how long it takes to figure this out but after a couple of years you'd think they have an idea .
paycheck71
Hall of Fame
Unless you're the Packers or the Colts, it can be very frustrating. I remember reading an interesting bit somewhere that the Bears had 17 different starting QB's during Favre's years in GB.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
The problem is that "they" is the NFL as a whole.
Upgrading the QB position when you've got a good QB is hard thing to do. There's some luck and some chance involved.
People sometimes forget this but the Packers were all set with Don Majkowski. He led the league in passing one year and then had a couple of years shortened by injury. When the Packers traded for Favre, Favre wasn't expected to be The Guy, Majkowski was supposed to be it.
Brian Billick was the "offensive mastermind" who put together the awesome Minnesota offense that looked great with all sorts of QBs at the helm (Moon, Cunningham, Culpepper, Johnson, etc.) Then he goes to Baltimore and... he can't EVEN figure out drafting the QB position. The Dolphins are still looking for Marino's replacement.
I'm fine with upgrading any position on the team, especially the QB. I'm not married to Schaub and I realize he's got limitations. If we can get a guy better than him at running this offense, great. I just don't believe it's as easy to do as some people on this board think. Over the years, I've seen too many teams swing and miss on drafting QBs to have any level of comfort that ANY FO, including this one, can hit on drafting one at will. And I don't think there are any other guys out there I'd be willing to trade for that are available for trade that would be an upgrade over Schaub. I think we could probably find an upgrade for TJ/Case but I think even then the price would be too steep.
I agree. I'd like to add that though it appears Harbaugh figured it out, or Carol, or Pagano, or Shanahan figured it out, remember when Romo took the league by storm, or when Sam Bradford flashed, or Stafford, or Cam Newton.
I know it's only going on year three for Cam, & there's still hope for Bradford & Stafford, & Romo is putting up Schaub like numbers..... but whatever type of QB you're looking for those guys provide examples that shows you're going to need a team, regardless. Phillip Rivers is another one.
& if you believe every year is unique, Schaub got us as far as Peyton got his team, as far as Rogers got his team, as Russell Wilson got his team. That doesn't mean that Schaub is good enough to get us to a SuperBowl, but at the very least it shows that sometimes the QB isn't enough, even when you're looking at Peyton, Rogers, & Wilson.
Number19
Hall of Fame
I'm a firm believer in giving your backup QB quality playing time with the first team, when game situations allow it. It just doesn't happen, though. I think coaches think it is disruptive to the team and players.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I think Ron Wulf knew Glanville hated Favre and made him an offer . Wulf drafted Favre for the Falcons before moving on to the Packers .
The only team that I've seen not stockpiling QBs was Manning's Colts . Most have some project QBs and some hold them as a commodity to trade . The Texans had Sage for awhile who had some value .
Qbs are hard because you can have talent , do great on the Wunderlich , diagram plays on a board , then get popped in the chin by a LB on your first play and come apart like a cheap rug . You don't have it .
QFT MSR
This is exactly where I'm at. No problem when they move on from Schaub, but until they have something that they know is better, they have to go with what they know. In 2013, clearly Schaub gives the Texans the best chance over the other QBs on the roster right now.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
This is a common practice which is disruptive to developing a team as a whole. Your right about starting QB's in general usually getting their way like divas on a dance floor. They love to compete & build their own resumes but risking injury & future of season by not coming out in garbage or other than essential situations plain selfish & self serving. TJ accepted his role last year but I felt for him & @ times felt Schuab should have been benched, no different than when Arian Foster fumbles.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
Of course it's much different than when Arian Foster fumbles because he's a runningback and Schaub is a quarterback. The reasoning behind that is that if you want to teach an RB a lesson you can sit him on the bench for a series or two, and it's not that huge of a disruption to your offense, not as much so with a QB. I'm pretty sure if Kubiak told Schaub to come out of the game and let TJ take some snaps in live action, Schaub's not going to be the guy who stays on the field in defiance.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Yates had 3 limited opportunities in "garbage" time last year. These were all in games that we were being blown out (not in games we were way ahead). Typically in these situations, the backup has an opportunity to positively skew/pad his numbers. However, in those games, he accumulated a QB rating of 11.7.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Yikes, the off-season, where verbal battles occur over two mediocre backup QBs.
I'm a big Keenum fan but I have to admit, I don't even know if we're there yet. Can a guy who hasn't spent any time on an NFL roster even be called a "mediocre" backup?
It's all waiting for us in the future. Just a few short months away and this argument will begin to be settled.
Hopefully
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
Wolf never worked for the Falcons - prior to joining Green Bay in 1991, he worked for the Raiders, Bucs, and Jets, but never the Falcons. As to the idea that Wolf knew Glanville hated Favre, here's Wolf's own description of the beginnings of the Favre trade:
LINK
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Well, I stand corrected. Maybe they did see Favre as the Guy to take over for the Majic Man. I don't think they expected it to happen as quickly as it did, though.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
They might not have. It could also be that they believed that the injury Majkowski suffered in 1990 was one he'd have a hard time ever fully recovering from. The thing that says the most to me about their ultimate intent for Favre was the fact they gave up a first rounder for him.
I think we take for granted how delicate team chemistry really is.
Ours is still a young team & we've seen how young teams give games away. The Rams, the Lions, the Colts, the Texans... thankfully Kubiak's conservatism or whatever helped us to lose only four games.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Exactly. I'd forgotten what they'd given up to get him. I remember him being a semi-surprise 2nd rounder and then Wolf really wanted him.
But giving up a 1st rounder to get him implies they had high hopes for him.
If the goal is to win a SB then Schaub isn't the guy. (Due to injury) IMHO
So every yr Schaub remains the QB is a yr wasted. It's a yr a potential yong QB could be learning his trade on the field.
So every yr Schaub remains the QB is a yr wasted. It's a yr a potential yong QB could be learning his trade on the field.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
Kinda like when the Oilers traded Moon to Minnesota so Cody Carlson could be the starter? Yeah, that worked out well. Let's follow that model.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Or kind of like when Tampa traded Steve Young so Vinny Testaverde could be the starter. NOTE: I'm not disagreeing with you as much as pointing out the silliness of your retort. Teams make mistakes all the time with QBs and you never really know what you have until they're out on the field.
Give me great or terrible.
Shoot for the moon, identify a franchise QB in next yrs draft and then trade what ever is necessary to get said QB. It's all about risk/reward.
Mediocrity is a terrible place to be.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I don't see your example as disagreement as much as agreement.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I'm starting to think your definition of "mediocrity" is whatever the Texans are doing and wherever they are in the standings.
But what if they think Matt Schaub is their franchise QB?
In all seriousness.
There were a lot of people thinking the same about JoeFlacco as little as six months ago. What if Baltimore had decided, like you, that they were done with mediocrity? What if Atlanta figured they had enough?
What if Kubiak truly believes he hit the jackpot & has two franchise guys in Yates & Keenum? We're always talking how sometimes even a first round QB needs to sit on the bench for a year or more..... ala Aaron Rogers, but they normally don't get that opportunity anymore.
Well, now we've got two great prospects who've had a year & then some.
But I don't think you should be given the starting QBs job, I think it should be earned. The starter gets hurt, then you come in & make it hard to take you out of the game. Like Tony Romo, like Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, Doug Flutie... Collin Kaepernick
To me, the back up qb position is a battle to watch because Schaub hasn't been the healthiest guy, and down the stretch last year he struggled. And jmo, but I'm not going to rule out a Super Bowl if Yates or keenum have to play. I don't think kubiak is just blowing smoke when he talks up the competition and mentions how far keenum has come and how he looks like a different player.
If you think we are mediocre now what were we in the Capers/Casserly/Carr era?
Give me a break.
What part of "even more" don't you understand?
If Texans didnt anticipate local fanatic support or "circus" when acquiring Keenum, and consider that to be a big distraction, they shouldnt have brought him in. They could have stayed with the subtle route of Yates or gone with someone else.
He's on the team. If he belongs and is worthy of #2 depth spot, then thats where you put him regardless of attention. If Keenum is ever a legit playable option, there won't really be a "perfect time" to do it without attention. Its just gonna come with the territory.
Might sound odd but, I think Kubiak is playing it right. He's saying that its hard COMPETITION AGAINST his starting QB as a THREAT. But he's not directly MARGINALIZING his accomplished starting QB (like how everyone wants). Its letting everyone know its a business all the same.
If this was a rebuilding team then the fan favorite support would actually work as a marketing charm as long as Keenum doesnt completely suck. But since its a WIN-NOW team for the SB, then Keenum just better be GOOD ENOUGH to fit into that plan.
There still won't be anything wrong with Yates as backup and Keenum 3rd string, it'd still mean he's moved up and another year closer.
He's on the team. If he belongs and is worthy of #2 depth spot, then thats where you put him regardless of attention. If Keenum is ever a legit playable option, there won't really be a "perfect time" to do it without attention. Its just gonna come with the territory.
Might sound odd but, I think Kubiak is playing it right. He's saying that its hard COMPETITION AGAINST his starting QB as a THREAT. But he's not directly MARGINALIZING his accomplished starting QB (like how everyone wants). Its letting everyone know its a business all the same.
If this was a rebuilding team then the fan favorite support would actually work as a marketing charm as long as Keenum doesnt completely suck. But since its a WIN-NOW team for the SB, then Keenum just better be GOOD ENOUGH to fit into that plan.
There still won't be anything wrong with Yates as backup and Keenum 3rd string, it'd still mean he's moved up and another year closer.
Not true
I just dont think the will ever win a SB with Schaub as QB or Gary as HC. Every yr they continue to lead this team is a yr wasted. IMHO
there is more talk on this message baord about Case Keenum than anywhere else. He IS NOT some sort of distraction because the 2% of Texans fans who care about both coog football and the texans mention him more than if he went to East Carolina or Arkansas State or Idaho. I have a first thing first attitude toawrds him. he managed to stick around last year (good), he is at least challenging TJ yates (good), let him clearly out play TJ Yates and win the 2nd job.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
When they were 8-8 and not in the playoffs, there wasn't much to be said. That's middle of the road and although for me "mediocrity" has connotations of being LESS than just middle of the road, 8-8 and not in the playoffs could easily fit the description of mediocre.
For me 5-7 wins is more my definition of "mediocre."
But 12-4 or 10-6 and winning the division and winning a playoff game is not.
From your quoted statement, it seems that anything less than a SB is mediocre. And, to me, that's just a mis-use of the word.
How many yrs were they 7-9, 9-7? Dexman has it posted somewhere.
How much farther did they get in the playoffs last yr with their vet QB, vs a late rd rookie QB? That may be good enough for some people, but I want to see progress.
Fans in Houston have been programmed to the aww shucks routine of good is good enough. I'm not one of those kind of fans, sorry my sights may be set too high for most on this MB. But to me with football/business etc it's about win or else and if you dont set you're goals to be the best then you never will be the best.
PS, how many yrs does Gary get before the we will have to adjust to a new offense routine wears out? 8 yrs? 10 yrs? 20 yrs? When would you say enough is enugh? I think Gary did his best job coaching since he's been here last yr. BTW
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
True.
I remember back when Kubiak was hired. We discussed what would make this organization successful.
We all (for the most part) agreed that winning the SuperBowl is a one in a million kind of thing. There have been many "successful" teams that did not win Super Bowls. & most of us were fine with that.
Perrenial Play-Offs, that's what we considered successful.
But ever since we said that, we've continued to move the target on Kubiak's regime. Most likely because we "feel" like we were close. Whether we had a 6-10 team, or an 8-8 team, we thought we should have won the SuperBowl.
Now I'm not saying I don't want this team to win the SuperBowl, only that you never know. I guarantee you go back over the last 7 or 8 years, the team you thought was going to win it..... didn't.
So we'd all be better off, & this clubs chances of winning a Super Bowl would be better, if we thought like you did.
I never did get an answer on how long Rick/Gary get before they lose there jobs? I will answer my own question, a long time, because BoB doesn't like traumatic things like change.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
It isn't a McNair thing. It is rare as hell to see a coach and GM fired when they are going 12-4 and winning the division.
How long do they get for what?
Win a SuperBowl? I'm sure they get as long as any other winning combination. Or even non-losing. Remember when we wanted them gone, that was Rick's only losing season & Gary's second.
I know other teams have been less patient with their Coach/GM, but for the life of me I can't think of one that is in a better position than the Texans are today.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
That's all well and good and great for you for having such high standards. But you need to use a word other than "mediocre" because that word does not mean what you're wanting to communicate. According to your definition, the Patriots are a mediocre team as were the Colts during the Manning-era.
Are we where we want to be? No. But as hard as it is for you to get your head around, we're a winning team now. We're not mediocre by any stretch of the definition.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Welcome to the Pittsburgh model of Football Front Officery. How long did Cowher get?
As long as the Texans are a successful team, Rick and Gary should keep their jobs and under this ownership, WILL keep their jobs. I know that you just want them fired no matter what the results are but it's not going to happen.
If Rick and Gary win a SB, you're still going to be griping and saying they should be fired because they didn't win more of them.
Or that we didn't win by 20
Or that we got a lucky break on a bad call
Or that we've only won it once in 12 years
Or some other nonsense.
I understand. Just had nothing to do with the post I quoted. Seems like your comprehension is poor.
Feeling additional pressure has nothing is not the opposite of not feeling any at all.
Says Schottenheimer/Jimmy Johnson/Shula (2 yrs after going 13-1,) Todd Haley and Lovie Smith fired this yr after winning 10 games. Firing successful HC's being fired isn't as uncommon as you might think. It is around Texans land though.
BTW, I was against firing Gary this offseason. I actually think he did a masterful job coacing a team with a hurt QB/WR and had depth issues to a 12-4 record.
Correct under BoB as long as they win a little and fans keep comming they keep their jobs. (Got it)
Pretty presumptious of you to know how I will feel after the Texans win a SB. Hope we have a chance to have that discussion at a later date. You are wrong however if you think I want Rick/Gary fired no matter what. Winning a SB seems to be a lower priority for some than others.