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Mario movement rumors (MERGED) Signs with Buffalo $100 million
- Thread starter gafftop
- Start date
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
If you could choose one, which would you take?:
sign FA CB Brent Grimes, sign Arian Foster to a 5 year deal, extend Chris Myers.
or,
sign Mario Williams
I believe the coming off-season will force decisions like that one. Obviously, I don't know exactly what those decisions will be. However, Mario's signing will definitely limit our ability to re-sign our guys and certainly our freedom in FA.
Norg
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I gots to look at reality here mario is a little to big to ay olb in a 3-4 so i say we give him to a 4-3 team that really wants him and get another good olb who can drop into coverege has well has rush cause lets face it this is a passing leauge and qb are gettin rid of the ball real quick imo. We need speed
So you actually think you can pay a top-flight CB AND a league-leading rusher AND the starting center on the best O-line we've ever put together for the franchise money they might pay Mario???
Seriously? You're talking $30 million and then some for those three guys if you go by franchise tag prices. No way Mario alone is going to command - or demand - that kind of cash.
Go back and re-do your math.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
I think Grimes will get something like: 6 for $45 million. Myers will get something like 5 and $20 million. Foster will get something like 5 for $40 million. A lot of that is back end stuff, though.
Mario, I believe, will get something like: $6 for 75 million (look at the Charles Johnson deal)... His bonus money will be very large as well. Therefore, though the cumulative total money is more for the other scenario (Grimes, Myers, Foster), the cap reality the first 3 years would be the same, basically.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Here's a question: Mario and Lamar Woodley are both on schedule to be UFAs... Who would you rather pay to play OLB in Wade's 3-4? I would much rather pay Woodley, though I think Mario may end up getting the bigger offer, though I would be almost certain that no other 3-4 team in the NFL will offer Mario a contract of any size to play OLB. Who disagrees?
Mario should be a LDE in a 4-3. That, IMO, is how to maximize his value.
Mario should be a LDE in a 4-3. That, IMO, is how to maximize his value.
badboy
Hall of Fame
I think you are confused. Mario Williams base salary for 2011 season is $13.8m (cap $15m) Round up to $14m. Even if tagged as OLB he must be paid 120% of his last year's salary. If tagged for next season $14m (100%) + $2.8m (20%) = $16.8m.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/mario-williams/
Mario as a free agent will be tagged as a franchise player. He can be then identified as exclusive or non-exclusive. Here is definition and terms:
Exclusive= Only his team can negotiate with player.
Any Club that designates a Franchise Player as "Exclusive" shall be the only Club with which that Franchise Player may negotiate or sign a contract. In order to designate an UFA or RFA as an Exclusive Franchise Player, the team must tender the player a one year contract that is the minimum of the average of the five largest salaries (as calculated at the end of the free agency signing period) for players at the position at which he played the most games during the prior year, or 120% of his prior year salary, whichever is greater.
Non-exclusive= player can negotiate with any team but:
If the team elects to name the player "non-exclusive" then the player shall be permitted to negotiate a contract with any Club as if he were an UFA; however, Draft Choice Compensation of TWO first round draft selections shall be awarded to the prior club in the event that he signs with the new club. For Non-Exlusive Franchise Players, the team must tender the player a one year contract that is the minimum of the average of the five largest PRIOR-YEAR salaries for players at the position at which he played the most games in the prior year, or 120% of his prior year salary, whichever is greater.
OR-he can be tagged as a "transitional" player.
Each Club can also designate one UFA or RFA as a Transition Player.....
Any Club that designates a Transition Player shall receive the Rights of First Refusal. In order to designate an UFA or RFA as a Transition Player, the team must tender the player a one year contract for the average of the ten largest prior year salaries for players at the position at which he played the most games during the prior year, or 120% of his prior year salary, whichever is greater.
**Note I have edited this and full article can be read at: http://www.askthecommish.com/freeagency/
After years of research, this is the guy that explains tags the best imo. I have used him for 3 years. Hope this is helpful?
Steve
badboy
Hall of Fame
Grimes was tagged by Atlanta & will cost a first round + huge contract. Not saying I would not considered it as he looks very good stat wise.
We're going to the play-offs without Mario Williams. That will give the Texans all the leverage they need to sign Mario to a reasonable contract before FA.
If, however, our pass rush is perceived as the reason we don't advance as far as we should, then Mario will have some leverage.
I honestly don't g.a.s. It's too early to worry about that any way.
If, however, our pass rush is perceived as the reason we don't advance as far as we should, then Mario will have some leverage.
Then you can go into the draft looking for a pass rusher (that may or may not pay off) or FA (that may or may not pay off) or sign the big guy where you know what you are going to get.
I honestly don't g.a.s. It's too early to worry about that any way.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Lance Zierlein said:
From dale's linked article.
Seriously Lance? Respect really just went down for you. The idea NFL line play is just a mano on mano matter is well just ludicrous. It matters who is assigned to block you. Who is assigned to block you is dependent on who is on the field with you. It isn't just block "the player" who is in front of you.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
Grimes was tendered as a restricted free agent for 2011 and signed a one year contract as a result. He will have four accrued seasons entering the 2012 season, and therefore can not be restricted again. Last years designation means nothing. He can be franchised, or he could agree to an extension prior to the start of the 2012 free agency period. Short of one of those two things happening, Atlanta cannot keep him from becoming a UFA, and any NFL team will be able sign him with no compensation going to the Falcons.
Thanks for the research - and the lesson in franchise tagging.
-repped
But the math still doesn't work for me when the proposed choice is a pro-bowl CB, a top flight RB, AND a starting center OR Mario at 16.8 million. I don't see where you can get those three guys for 16.8 mill.
The smart play, IMHO, is not to franchise Mario but to negotiate a 4 or 5 year deal at 8.5 or 9 million per year. Or maybe 7 or 8 million per year with incentives that could total up to 10 - 10.5 mil a year. Back loading that contract, as was done with his rookie year contract, would be even better.
I had issues with Lance's description myself. If he's correct - and he ain't - D-linemen never get double teamed. RBs never chip rushers on their way out of the backfield. Centers never help guards (or vice versa) with the DT or DE that's "in front of them".
LZ was being a little oversimplistic to make his point. And that subtracts from his credibility as an analyst.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Thanks. He is an interesting prospect with I think 11 INTS last 2 years and one (?) this season.
One thing to consider in all this is that rookies became a lot more valuable in terms of cap space since you pay them a lot less guaranteed money compared to pre-lockout prices.
My guess is that Mario's resign price went down because of the injury but not enough that we aren't going to have to sacrifice other players to resign him. The other issue is how does Brooks Reed play through the rest of the season. So far he's good, but he's not Mario. His rookie contract is also much more cap friendly than Mario's. If we let Mario walk, we will need to draft an OLB in the first 3 rounds to get some depth.
My guess is that Mario's resign price went down because of the injury but not enough that we aren't going to have to sacrifice other players to resign him. The other issue is how does Brooks Reed play through the rest of the season. So far he's good, but he's not Mario. His rookie contract is also much more cap friendly than Mario's. If we let Mario walk, we will need to draft an OLB in the first 3 rounds to get some depth.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Just info to think about: 2011 team salary cap $120m & Texans paying Mario $14m so we have that $14m next season to use on Mario or else where. There is also a $3m amount that was not used this season and will be allowed next year. That adds up to $17m. We are @ about $900,000 under the 120 and that adds another million = $18m. The TV deal is expect to add apprx $13m to each team. That totals $31million. I would guess that increased radio & other revenue sources would add at least $1 million so we now have $32m for 2012. I expect Mario to sign long term deal with first year base at apprx $9m.
My feeling from March when I started this thread was to trade Mario. I think we will make the playoffs as is but with the addition of a real 1b receiver and a quality CB this team could have been a serious SB contender. One of my main reasons for the trade was Mario's propensity to injury. His injuries are strange injuries and don't seem to occur from major contact. Is he just so muscle bound that he gets injured easily. I don't see him getting more durable as he ages. If you put his history of injuries into the equation I just don't know about signing him to a long term contract. If you franchise you tie up a lot of money that could be used elsewhere and you basically set your self up to have a repeat of this year with respect to Mario only I don't think you can franchise again. I am not sure what you do with Mario at this point. I just hope he has some type of trade value left so we get something besides a compensation pick.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Agree on this post. A first and $8-9m for CB Brent Grimes (Atlanta) and savings to go to Foster. But Reed really nee to pick it up.
Mario is what 25, 26 years old? He's yet to hit his prime. His "injury" history is nowhere near as bad as your post suggests.
The next 5 to 6 years will be the best years of his career.
I don't know that I like him as a 3-4 OLB, but he is & will be one of the most dominant pass rushers over that time period. Would like for him to be on this team.
fiasco west
All Pro
This team beat the Steelers at full strentgh. With Mario and AJ on the field. I feel like WITH Mario the pass rush is top 5 and WITH Mario this team IS a contender. Now it may be a darkhorse contender but one nonetheless.
Also this injury thing...pretty sure we've gone through this before but the man has not missed many games at all. Up until this season Mario has missed a total of 3 games.
So I don't see this injury history.
EDIT: Also pass rushers are premier players on defense. Not many teams are going to give up a elite pass rusher for a #2 WR or CB...it just ain't happening. Much easier to come by a solid #2 at WR or CB than a premier pass rusher.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Ah but did the4 many injuries greatly effect his abilities. ALso, not everyone agrees with your assessment Mario is an "elite" pas rusher.
The beauty of the long term contract as I suggested it be played is:
(a) It can be structured such that a fair portion of the money is incentive laden. Mario has to get X number of sacks to get bonus A and he has to make the pro bowl to get bonus B and he has to help the team make the playoffs to get bonus C. Stuff of that nature.
(b) If we want to clear cap space at some future point, there's the option of releasing him as Jacksonville did with Garrard. Happens all the time.
And I don't really see where franchising Mario is applicable. I thought franchising done to benefit players who think they're underpaid and want to test the open market. When have we ever heard that kind of "I'm sooo unjustly underpaid" talk - like Lance Briggs keeps doing and CJ0K did this preseason - from Mario or his agent?? Anyone who has will have to show me some quotes that back that up.
I just think an incentive-laden contract extension is the smart play for both the Texans and Mario.
badboy
Hall of Fame
This plus heavy on the back end. A huge bonus upfront allows lower base for first year or two. We should be able to keep Mario IF we choose AND have money under new TV income added to cap to go after another free agent.
fiasco west
All Pro
They really don't have to. It's like 3 guys ahead of him in sacks since he's entered the league. The only ones that don't tend to agree are those who thinks he needs to be in the backfield every single down.
How many pass rushers are better than him? You don't make all-pro teams unless you are elite.
Give me Meachem, Myers,Foster and Courtney Upshaw with a 1st rd pick over 8 healthy games of MW any day and twice on Sundays. Dont give me stats about MW's games played. He may play but he's always hurt for about half the season. This yrs even more than half a season.
Was it last yr that BoBBy called out MW's effort level? I honestly cant remember.
Was it last yr that BoBBy called out MW's effort level? I honestly cant remember.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
There's a reason why pass rushers have the 2nd highest franchise tag, they're more valuable. Grimes is just solid, meyers is god, and foster has been great. You pay in order of rarity and importance. Mario is a all pro type, not just pro bowl caliber. How many of those guy get free at a premium position become free. At the age of 27? If bill had to do it again, they would've payed seymore.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
I don't understand why some of you think Mario is an elite pass rusher. He isn't. He's good. He had one great season: 2007 and one very good one: 2008. Better pass rushers than Mario:
Dwight Freeney
Charles Johnson
J. Peppers
James Harrison
Woodley
Clay Matthews
Terrell Suggs
Robert Mathis
Tamba Hali
Demarcus Ware
Trent Cole
Justin Tuck
Osi Umenyiora
Jared Allen
those are just some names off the top of my head. Yes, I realize he plays the run better than some of those guys. But, he's no All-Pro. He's a pass rusher with no pass rush moves. He has one: the bull rush. That's it.
fiasco west
All Pro
Heh unreal.
Mario made the all-pro team twice. You want to know how many times Freeney made it? 3 times.
Charles Johnson- 0
Harrison-4
Woodley-1
Mathis- 0
Really I can go on.
You want to say he's not All-pro? C'mon man. He was on his way to another one too and the main reason he's had two just solid years is because our d-coordinators sucked. Everyone on defense sucked last year. To make the All-pro team you must be elite, especially the first team which he did twice and I doubt it will be the last of his young career.
Honestly I am surprised that guys are ready to just give up a premiere pass rusher. Also i'm sorry but those that think the pass rush has not been effected with Mario out are kidding themselves.
Mario made the all-pro team twice. You want to know how many times Freeney made it? 3 times.
Charles Johnson- 0
Harrison-4
Woodley-1
Mathis- 0
Really I can go on.
You want to say he's not All-pro? C'mon man. He was on his way to another one too and the main reason he's had two just solid years is because our d-coordinators sucked. Everyone on defense sucked last year. To make the All-pro team you must be elite, especially the first team which he did twice and I doubt it will be the last of his young career.
Honestly I am surprised that guys are ready to just give up a premiere pass rusher. Also i'm sorry but those that think the pass rush has not been effected with Mario out are kidding themselves.
Some people are having difficulty seeing scheme & talent. Wade Phillips is doing a good job of keeping pressure on the opposing QB, but he's having to sacrifice in other aspects of the game. We aren't playing any elite offenses, so it isn't really hurting us yet.
When we get to the play-offs & have to face the Bills or the Patriots, we'll see what's missing.
One caveat... if Brooks Reed or Connor Barwin can become that force we expect out of a second round pick, that changes everything. We've got 9 weeks for them to learn the things they need to learn to compensate for the loss of Mario Williams & it's totally possible. It's an uphill climb, but I feel good about Wade & Herring's ability to get these guys ready.
welsh texan
You may say I’m a dreamer but I’m not the only one
Bollocks mate, He is All-Pro, he's been elected All-Pro twice, that is the definition of being All-Pro, whether you've been elected or not, he has.
I cannot understand your hatred of Mario? The only thing I can think is maybe you backed Bush or Young back in 2006 on your blog and are trying to save face by making him seem worse than he is??
Sure, he gets injured too much, and sure, he's expensive, but he showed through 4 games this season that he has it in him, with the right coaching, to become one of if not THE best pass rusher in the league, the guy was unstoppable through the first quarter of the season and thats with a position change and shortened off season programme, just imagine what will happen when he improves!!
Or you just keep on kidding yourself.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Conner Barwin, Brooks Reed and Upshaw whooeee!
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
I was a Mario fan from the beginning. I hate the Longhorns and don't believe in taking RBs with the 1st pick.
How many times did safety Roy Williams get elected as an All-Pro? Sorry, but I don't really care for popularity contests. I already know that there exists an inflated opinion of Mario's performance.... He played like an All-Pro in 2007 and most of 2008 so those were earned. I'm not sure what those awards have to do with 2011 or 2012 though.
By the way, that list was a list of better pass rushers. I don't neccessarily think those are all better players... just better pass rushers.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
It's good business to be prepared. Have they had any contract talks w/MW? What does he/agent want? This will determine if he comes back or not a Texan. He, the franchise & fan base already have a lot invested both money wise & emotionally. I hope it doesn't come down to trading him, he is such a signature Texan but if they cannot agree the Texans will move forward. 
badboy
Hall of Fame
Hopefully, Chris Olsen VP and contract guru is already in discussions with Mario's agent. I would love to see a healthy Mario on this team with a reasonable contract. I would rather see Mario traded to a team giving us high selections in 2012 draft. Reed and Barwin continue to look good. Texans are in the driver's seat imo.It's good business to be prepared. Have they had any contract talks w/MW? What does he/agent want? This will determine if he comes back or not a Texan. He, the franchise & fan base already have a lot invested both money wise & emotionally. I hope it doesn't come down to trading him, he is such a signature Texan but if they cannot agree the Texans will move forward.
I agree.
I also would love to see a healthy Mario but I am not sure the possibility of this happening is good. I know he has great "potential" and you don't want to trade away potential but you don't win championships with potential. It isn't like this is Mario's 1st or 2nd year in the league. The main reason this thread was started back in March was because the Texans had and still have holes to fill. And Mario, due to injuries is unable to play at a high level.
By trading Mario before the season I thought they could PU a 1b WR and a quality CB. I know we got Joseph but can you imagine if we had traded and gotten a real 1bWR and another quality CB where this team would be now. I think with those additions this team could have realistic SB aspirations.
Signing/franchising Mario is setting up a repeat of this year with Mario. I do think another year like this year added on to last year in regards to injuries for Mario will drastically damage our ability to get something of quality in return in a trade.
The Texans are way below average in WR as a group and could use a quality CB plus they need to continue to rebuild in other areas.
I think we will be saying during the playoffs, " If only we had better WRs and another CB we could have won that game."
Starting to ramble. You all know my take on this. It hasn't changed.
Dale,
You act is tired and played out. Everyone clearly knows where you stand on Mario Williams and your opinion of him is wrong. Yes, I said your opinion, is wrong.
What he will command on the market as a free agent will dictate that. This organization would be foolish not resign Mario.
Pay Mario.
Foster will get a deal somewhere in the JC range, which is where it should be.
Pay Meyers.
Release and restructure whomever you need to make this work.
You act is tired and played out. Everyone clearly knows where you stand on Mario Williams and your opinion of him is wrong. Yes, I said your opinion, is wrong.
What he will command on the market as a free agent will dictate that. This organization would be foolish not resign Mario.
Pay Mario.
Foster will get a deal somewhere in the JC range, which is where it should be.
Pay Meyers.
Release and restructure whomever you need to make this work.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
I get that people may disagree with my assessment of Mario. That's understandable. However, I don't get this attitude that we must re-sign him at any cost. Why? The Texans defense is playing consistent and with dominance without Mario in the lineup. How can anyone conclude that we should re-sign no matter how high the bidding gets and no matter if his contract damages our ability to re-sign other important members of this team. That doesn't make any sense. Why even watch the Texans this season? After all, Mario is on I.R., which means the Texans can't win. right?
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
That may be a good preliminary step, but we really have to wait out his injury recovery before we go nuts and sign him to a 70 million dollar deal. No point in giving him a big deal if we don't know that he will be recovered by the beginning of next season. It's not a given that Mario will recover 100%.
Has Doc Jean given his opinion on Mario's injury and recovery time somewhere? I'm sure he would have some good insight on that front.
Who said at any cost?
We are all saying Mario & his agent should take several things into consideration..... the way the defense is playing without him, his injury history.... & if we do get to the Super Bowl & Mario wants to be part of a Super Bowl winning team, he's better off resigning with us.
We've got all the leverage.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
This is what Fico said and I was responding to:
What he will command on the market as a free agent will dictate that. This organization would be foolish not resign Mario.
Pay Mario.
Release and restructure whomever you need to make this work.
I would not let the market set the terms. First of all, there are 32 teams and some of them aren't too bright. Some of those teams will have to spend money to reach the cap minimum number. Furthermore, some of those run a 4-3 defense and need a strong 4-3 DE to play opposite their pure, weak side speed rusher. Those teams will inflate the market for Mario.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I'm fine if Mario leaves and I'm fine if Mario stays. I hope he stays.
Our defense is good and we're winning without him. But our defense has only really been tested a couple of times. We've been lucky to get some bad teams to pad our stats with since he's been out.
I think our defense is even better with Mario. I think we're a better team with Mario. Is the loss of him a mortal blow? No. But that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
badboy
Hall of Fame
Agreed but you can get the parameters down. For example Mario could state he wants to see what other teams will offer.
Do you think any team would give 2 first rounds for Mario????
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Doubtful, but the Texans and said team could negotiate the compensation.
badboy
Hall of Fame
There you go. Sort of like we did for Schaub IIRC.
If he leaves, add a dynamic pass rusher to the top of your next mock. Heck, add two just in case.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
Maybe we can trade him for Demarcus Ware, Jay Ratliff and 1st. Sounds about even...
Maybe we can trade him for Demarcus Ware, Jay Ratliff and 1st. Sounds about even...
Nix that Damarcus Ware talk..... costs too much for some of our fans. We can probably get a kick returner, long snapper, STs gunner & a ball boy for the cost of Ware.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
All of those guys on ur list have a all pro with him. Suggs has ngata, harrison/woodley, tuck/osi,allen/williams,ware/ratliff and so on. Who has played with mario? Okoye? Smith? Weaver? As I've said before and regardless of what you think,teams always turn protection to mario. That kind of guy get premium money. So wheher you think he should or shouldn't get paid by the texans, he will get 13m per.