It takes everything he can muster just to stay within 3 yards of the receiver most times. Hard to play the ball when you are just trying to keep up.
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Kareem Jackson's plight.
- Thread starter 76Texan
- Start date
It takes everything he can muster just to stay within 3 yards of the receiver most times. Hard to play the ball when you are just trying to keep up.
TxnsFootball
Practice Squad
Haven't liked this guy since last year. Still don't like him now. Am I wrong or is there something I'm not seeing??
Wolf
100% Texan
probably everything that you would need to know all rolled into one nice compact package
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83114
BTW welcome to the board
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83114
BTW welcome to the board
TexansFanatic
Extremist
Thought provoking first post there, noob!
thetexanator
Veteran
welcome to the pack newby. opposing qb's luuuuuuuv kj.
TxnsFootball
Practice Squad
Too critical too soon? Haha Sorry. Been coming to the forum for a while now just never really had anything to say until now. I just needed to get that off my chest.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
i am KJs biggest advocate so if you want to here any negative stuff about KJ just ask
TexansFanatic
Extremist
Don't let anyone bully you into not saying your piece. ;-))
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
i am KJs biggest advocate so if you want to here any negative stuff about KJ just ask
Huh?
Prove it, Rey!
Sorry, but I called that Bull!
BTW, if you noticed the way Allen tried to recover against Britt, you know he got beat by a mile.
Same thing with D. Williams.
A decent throw (one that doesn't land on the receiver shoulder) and that would have been a catch.
At least now I know that you don't try to defend Allen anymore (I take it you mean not just on this particular play.)
I've been trying to watch CB play overall in the NFL, and I can tell you that Jackson currently is playing better than a lot of them. I don't want to jump to a conclusion yet, but the one thing I know for sure is KJ is playing better than both CBs on the Cardinals (P.Peterson and AJ Jefferson).
Kthx
Rookie
You say that 76 but don't really offer much in the way of proof either. I have watched every game this season so far and have seen both KJ and Allen getting burned constantly. It would be one thing if I was the only one noticing buy apparently the other coach/QB notices it also as it seems like they constantly notice a soft spot in our secondary and sodomize us for ten yards over and over again while asking KJ to squeal like a pig boy. If anything our pass rush is making him look better statistically than he is actually playing.
76 has provided way more proof than anyone questioning his evaluations. What proof do you have of opposing QBs "sodomizing us" "while asking Kj to squeal like a pig boy"?
That has happened once, vs New Oreans & he hasn't been successfully picked on since.
Flacco didn't throw on him any more or completed any more passes on him than any of the other corners.
Hasselbeck threw on him 3 times during the game (if I remember right) none were completed.
Most likely, but that's part of the point.
I've never defended Allen.
I've simply maintained that I thought he was a better option to have on the field than Kjax in certain situations. Overall, he makes more plays than Kjax does.
If you want proof just watch the games.
Note to steelbtexan: P. Peterson still sucks!
Err, I mean, you'll have to wait some more before Peterson makes any real play out there!
Update, against the Steelers, he had no pass defended.
He gave up 5 catches of the 9-15yd variety.
He got called for a 14yd PI where he just ran into the receiver.
He was also called on an illegal use of the hand way past the 5yd limit.
He "might have" gotten away with it on a medium pass (somewhere around 32 yards.)
The pass was just long for Wallace to catch.
At least, he didn't give up a TD on a red zone play.
Wait, that was only because he put his elbow into Wallace rib and pushed him off slightly (more than slightly actually) as Wallace tried to pull in a one-handed catch over his head near the side line at the top of the EZ with the safety closing in. (This was with the ball on the Cards 20yd line).
On an attempt to stop a run to the outside, Peterson put his head down trying to take the runner off his legs instead of wrapping up. You might have guessed it: he missed and the runner was still inbound (the runner is nowhere near the sideline for a defender to try this tactic). The commentator agreed that it was poor tackling.
Did you have a chance to watch that game, Jay?
Err, I mean, you'll have to wait some more before Peterson makes any real play out there!
Update, against the Steelers, he had no pass defended.
He gave up 5 catches of the 9-15yd variety.
He got called for a 14yd PI where he just ran into the receiver.
He was also called on an illegal use of the hand way past the 5yd limit.
He "might have" gotten away with it on a medium pass (somewhere around 32 yards.)
The pass was just long for Wallace to catch.
At least, he didn't give up a TD on a red zone play.
Wait, that was only because he put his elbow into Wallace rib and pushed him off slightly (more than slightly actually) as Wallace tried to pull in a one-handed catch over his head near the side line at the top of the EZ with the safety closing in. (This was with the ball on the Cards 20yd line).
On an attempt to stop a run to the outside, Peterson put his head down trying to take the runner off his legs instead of wrapping up. You might have guessed it: he missed and the runner was still inbound (the runner is nowhere near the sideline for a defender to try this tactic). The commentator agreed that it was poor tackling.
Did you have a chance to watch that game, Jay?
I saw one run play to KJ's side, Kj got his hands on CJ2ypc and held him up at the LOS, play over, forward progress stopped. No gain.
Similar play, Allen dives at CJs feet, completely misses CJ picks up 4 of his 18 yards, thank God we've got safeties & LBs on this team.
There was another, Allen got beat on a crossing route (there was a bit of a pick from the slot receiver) Allen trailing way behind, dives and gets nothing but air.
That play to 17 where Allen was beat, the ball went through the receivers hands, hit his helmet then bounced off before Allen wraped his arms up. He should have caught that ball & Allen had nothing to do with him not.
The worst play I saw from KJ, he let a receiver get behind him, run an out & the ball receiver couldn't stay in bounds. I don't know if KJ was in zone on that play, there was a safety coming down on the receiver. Jason Allen was on the sideline telling Kj he did a good job..... kudos to Allen.
Kj got beat on that deep route, got the PI call, I thought their feet got tangled & he was falling down.
On the next play, he stays on top of his man a little better & uses his body to crowd the receiver to the line. Not great, but good job.
Kj was out for a couple games so lets not act like he's been holding it down every since NO.
Versus the Jags, with their receivers & MJD, I doubt we see Allen as much as we saw him against the Ravens.
We need physical bodies, we need tacklers.
Note to steelbtexan: P. Peterson still sucks!
Err, I mean, you'll have to wait some more before Peterson makes any real play out there!
Update, against the Steelers, he had no pass defended.
He gave up 5 catches of the 9-15yd variety.
He got called for a 14yd PI where he just ran into the receiver.
He was also called on an illegal use of the hand way past the 5yd limit.
He "might have" gotten away with it on a medium pass (somewhere around 32 yards.)
The pass was just long for Wallace to catch.
At least, he didn't give up a TD on a red zone play.
Wait, that was only because he put his elbow into Wallace rib and pushed him off slightly (more than slightly actually) as Wallace tried to pull in a one-handed catch over his head near the side line at the top of the EZ with the safety closing in. (This was with the ball on the Cards 20yd line).
On an attempt to stop a run to the outside, Peterson put his head down trying to take the runner off his legs instead of wrapping up. You might have guessed it: he missed and the runner was still inbound (the runner is nowhere near the sideline for a defender to try this tactic). The commentator agreed that it was poor tackling.
Did you have a chance to watch that game, Jay?
See, I don't understand why you feel the need to point out how much other players are sucking to try and prove a point about KJ.
None of that really matters as to whether or not KJ is a plus or minus on this team.
fiasco west
All Pro
He's improved. But everyone is so focused on him sucking that every mistake he makes or every time he gets beat everyone piles onto it. Meanwhile he has very quiet games.
I still think he should be starting over Allen because of this noted improvement. He's much more physical, he's a much better tackler, and his coverage has improved and he is younger.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I agree with this.
I understand pointing to other rookie CBs to frame the comparison.... seems like some people expect Kj to be Nnamdi Asomugha straight out the box & that was never going to happen.
But i think 76Texan goes a little too far & berates those other players, which is as unfair to them as it is to Kj
I think it's going to take a while to see what Kj is going to be. But it's evident that he will get better. He's been playing well for a 2nd year corner & anyone who can't see that...... anyone who thinks it makes more sense to play Allen is jaded.
Well said.
Note to steelbtexan: P. Peterson still sucks!
Err, I mean, you'll have to wait some more before Peterson makes any real play out there!
Update, against the Steelers, he had no pass defended.
He gave up 5 catches of the 9-15yd variety.
He got called for a 14yd PI where he just ran into the receiver.
He was also called on an illegal use of the hand way past the 5yd limit.
He "might have" gotten away with it on a medium pass (somewhere around 32 yards.)
The pass was just long for Wallace to catch.
At least, he didn't give up a TD on a red zone play.
Wait, that was only because he put his elbow into Wallace rib and pushed him off slightly (more than slightly actually) as Wallace tried to pull in a one-handed catch over his head near the side line at the top of the EZ with the safety closing in. (This was with the ball on the Cards 20yd line).
On an attempt to stop a run to the outside, Peterson put his head down trying to take the runner off his legs instead of wrapping up. You might have guessed it: he missed and the runner was still inbound (the runner is nowhere near the sideline for a defender to try this tactic). The commentator agreed that it was poor tackling.
Did you have a chance to watch that game, Jay?
Yes I did,
The coverage thing doesn't bother me that bad. It's a learning on the job thing. PP may end up playing better at S. That's why the tackling thing bothers me so much. It's just taking the easy way out. He was a great tackler at LSU. He's got the Size/speed so he must just be lost at this point.
Hopefully he improves, it would be ashamed to see all of that talent go to waste.
BTW, did Marshall let Wallace go and he was supposed to have S help over the top. Or did Marshall just screw up on the long TD pass? IYO
Have you gotten the chance to check out Xavier Rhodes of Fla. St.? If so what do you think of him. We're dicussing him in the rm/BL/BB mock draft thread. I would love your input.
Thank you to all who understands my point(s).
Rey, I can't remember if you were among those who feel that the Texans should have drafted McCourty (in hindsight).
That group never had a problem bringing up McCourty to put down Kareem Jackson.
I felt that it was a fair point for them to raise the comparison; why shouldn't I be able to make the equivalent comparisons with Peterson and McCourty this year?
Again, I want to reiterate that I haven't criticized Allen at all this year.
I only described what happened there on that one play, that Allen wasn't credited for a pass defended officially.
What I observed coincides exactly with the official game book.
I'm not making up any stuff up to tear down Allen!
Rey, I can't remember if you were among those who feel that the Texans should have drafted McCourty (in hindsight).
That group never had a problem bringing up McCourty to put down Kareem Jackson.
I felt that it was a fair point for them to raise the comparison; why shouldn't I be able to make the equivalent comparisons with Peterson and McCourty this year?
Again, I want to reiterate that I haven't criticized Allen at all this year.
I only described what happened there on that one play, that Allen wasn't credited for a pass defended officially.
What I observed coincides exactly with the official game book.
I'm not making up any stuff up to tear down Allen!
I wasn't speaking from a technical standpoint...
But I don't see how looking at other players that are playing like crap helps to determine a 0 point.
No, I wasn't a McCourty guy. I was a Dez Bryant guy.
But I was not upset with the KJ pick at all. I thought he had a chance to be a good player.
Hey, now you can see how steep a learning curve can be when a rookie CB is put out there in the same position as a veteran CB.
And I mean, the Cards safeties didn't fail Peterson anywhere as much as the Texans' failed Jackson.
On the play that you mentioned, IMO, the safety played too far away from action.
The two deepest receivers were on Marshall's side (acutally all the routes were).
The safety should have shifted to his left sooner; he would have been in position to help Marshall. (He was really close, but no cigar!)
KJ will improve. He has improved.
But that has nothing to do with whether or not he gives us a shot to be the better team on a game to game, season to season, play to play basis.
The zero point is "rookie CBs drafted in the first round".
(I had discussed some about Joe Haden just after the season; how he was started out slowly by the Browns; ie., nickel, sending him in on blitzes, playing him in under coverage to get his feet wet before working in the more difficult tasks.)
If this were Kj's rookie season I agree. I wouldn't have a problem moving him to nickel today, if we had a better corner on the team.
I do not believe Allen is that corner. Compared to Kj, yes, he's probably going to "make more play" as far as INTs go.
But tackles, passes defensed, run supporting defense, all the other plays that a corner has to make in an NFL game, Kj is so far ahead of Allen it's ridiculous for a 7th year vet.
Allen uses his speed better. Allen stays on top better. But that's it. I haven't seen either of them break on a ball & jump a route. I've only seen once that Allen hit a guy to prevent a catch. I've only seen Allen come up & get a tackle on run support once.
JMO
b0ng
Bad Hombre
I think after 20+ games of him playing it's pretty obvious that he has glaring flaws in his game that cannot be coached up. Whether Jason Allen is a better option or not is practically irrelevant as both need to not be our CB2 moving forward.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I am not talking about going around to look at players who are playing like crap. I am talking about looking at what the middle of the league #2 CB plays like and using that as a reference point for plus vs. minus. There has to be a standard. You can't set the standard at Deion Sanders for the top 4 CB's. It isn't going to happen. You are lucky to get one. It would be great to have two JoJo's starting but it isn't realistic and you don't (shouldn't) judge your #2 against #1's although you always look to upgrade.
foo82
Waterboy
Random point, since we are speaking of tackling, no one mentioned that tackling seemed much much better this year in comparison with last year. I remember Texans missing tackles left and right. Our LBs are not whiffing them, and our dbs seem much better at wrapping up (except for Allen who often takes bad angles).
Right, but that doesn't really have anything to do with what I was talking about...
Which was constantly looking at other player's faults to somehow make Kareem look better.
Infantrycak is talking about comparing our #2 to other #2s....
I think 76Texans has always been more focused on our First round CB compared to other 1st round CBs & using guys like Kyle Wilson & McCourtey makes too much sense, since we passed on them to get "the most NFL ready" of the bunch.
Hayden was taken much higher, Petterson was also regarded a much higher prospect. He contrast Kj to those guys to say, "This is what you get with a rookie CB, regardless how good a prospect he is" just to demonstrate how difficult the position is to learn.
He's taken screen shots of veterans playing similar defensive schemes to demonstrate KJ doing exactly what he was supposed to be doing, and others showing him actually doing it better than some of the vets...
It's not so much that 76 is tearing apart other players game, but contrasting what they do to what KJ does for comparison purposes.
But "Kj sucks" appears to be the only thing you want to hear.
STEEL BLUE TEXANS
Hall of Fame
One of the drives you mention Allen being a part of, Barwin was called for offsides on 3rd and 3 which prevented a 3 and out. The very next play the Titans motioned CJ out wide where he had a 1 on 1 matchup against Sharpton. Are you really going to penalize Jason Allen for that.
Hasselbecks first pass was the play where KJ got flagged for PI which was a legit call. KJ is a step behind the receiver, stumbles and grabs the receiver from behind. You conveniently left out those penalty yards when you were comparing drives KJ and JA played in.
On the fleaflicker the Titans tried, KJ is 2 steps behind the receiver but gets bailed out by a huge hit from JoJo jarring the ball loose. Next play the receiver drops a wide open pass in the middle of the field (coverage by McCain). This drive you credit KJ for a 3 and out.
I personally have no dog in this fight as I think both Kareem Jackson and Jason Allen suck and neither are the longterm answer at CB2. If you're going to put all that work analyzing these two, at least tell the whole story.
Hasselbecks first pass was the play where KJ got flagged for PI which was a legit call. KJ is a step behind the receiver, stumbles and grabs the receiver from behind. You conveniently left out those penalty yards when you were comparing drives KJ and JA played in.
On the fleaflicker the Titans tried, KJ is 2 steps behind the receiver but gets bailed out by a huge hit from JoJo jarring the ball loose. Next play the receiver drops a wide open pass in the middle of the field (coverage by McCain). This drive you credit KJ for a 3 and out.
I personally have no dog in this fight as I think both Kareem Jackson and Jason Allen suck and neither are the longterm answer at CB2. If you're going to put all that work analyzing these two, at least tell the whole story.
1. I'm counting drives and plays, basically to show that KJ was not an easy target such that Hasselbeck and the Titans coaches had in mind to come back to (deep) time and again; not what some posters think.
2. No, I didn't leave out the PI call. Reread my posts.
Even though I feel that it was an iffy call.
I don't think a receiver cut back across a DB's face should get a PI call; if anything, it's probably should have been incidental contact.
If KJ had turned his head to the inside (he doesn't even have to look all the way back at the QB), I think the call could have easily gone the other way around.
A PI is when the CB impedes the receiver natural direction in the route.
Heck, if every time a CB trails and the receiver just has to stop or turn toward the receiver while slowing down so that the DB runs into him to get a PI call; they would have done it all day long!
3. What TK said, a variety of sort.
The Walter's 20 yard catch on a slant route in the other thread is another variety.
In that play, the Tacks decided to keep the safety back and gave up the slant to Walter.
Was Courtland Finnegan any closer to Walter than KJ was to his receiver?
No, he was further away.
In cover one or cover three, the RCB (Finnegan and KJ) needs to be concerned about the swirl route, where the crosser ran toward the middle but then cut back to the side line. (I've seen those, I think AJ had one of those as well.)
If the deep safety comes down to take the crosser, then the RCB took over in the post (this should be done early in the pattern.)
The way the Texans played it here is also a good way.
Joseph releases his man to the deep safety and cut off the crosser.
We had Jackson in Joseph's position in another game (Ravens, I think) where he played LCB and released his man to cut off the crosser.
Child Please.
Go back and read what I've said about KJ and other corners.
I know exactly what 76 is "trying to do" and I am not buying it.
All corners make mistakes. All corners get beat. Most rookie corners thrown into the fire have ugly moments.
But big time players make big time plays, or at least flash some playmaking ability. Kareem can be solid at times, but he does not make plays.
Now you can put all the stock you want to into playing the run well and making tackles, but Dunta did the same exact thing. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a corner who could cover very well but couldn't tackle rather than vice versa.
Now, I don't like to judge players without taking their environment into consideration (pass rush, overall defensive success, key players around them), but despite whatever mistakes McCourty or Joe Haden made, they made plays.
Also, I'm taking Peterson all day every day over KJ. In six games he has an INT and a return TD.
Who said that a rookie is supposed to come in and be shut down?
You and 76 both need to pay attention because I have said it like a million times that getting beat is not something exclusive to KJ and that is not my problem with him.
He rarely gets his hands on balls (PD's or INT's) even though teams throw his way all the time and as a first round CB that is no bueno.
Which brings me back to my original point: when all you do is point out screw ups by other players and explain away bad plays by "your guy" it makes your analysis less credible IMO. You are not presenting the full spectrum of what is going on.
And that is JMO on the subject.
badboy
Hall of Fame
That is what ugly women pray for.
Rookie season:
In six games Peterson had an INT on a hail mary pass at the end of the half where the QB threw into a crowd of 3 defenders.
One guy batted the ball away into the hand of the fourth defender (Peterson) who wasn't on anybody.
In six games, Peterson had 3 PDs.
In six games, KJ had an INT that was definitely more legitimate than Peterson can only dream off.
In six games, KJ had 5 PDs.
And what does a return have anything to do with playing CB and coverage?
Also, I have not been one constantly saying Kareem sucks. In fact I've said several times that his play has been better than last year.
But that said, I think we can do better at CB#2 in the future. I also think that it's a good things that Allen has been eating into some of his playing time. They both have their warts but lthey both do different things well.
But that said, I think we can do better at CB#2 in the future. I also think that it's a good things that Allen has been eating into some of his playing time. They both have their warts but lthey both do different things well.