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Kareem Jackson's plight.

the fact is that KJ got burned, sure he needed safety help of course whn you are a sorry ass CB u always need safety help, so i can agree with you on every argument u have evenr made about KJ getting beat cause of no safety help. He HAS to have help other wise he gets burned, and burned and burned.
 
If this was man coverage then Manning lost the TE on the crossing route.

But KJ cut that guy off while Quin took the seam route.

Manning might have gotten into Joseph's way a little bit.
Joseph was close but still lost it to the other crosser (Boldin).

If it was cover 2 then Manning blew his coverage.

IMO, this is a more difficult pass and a more difficult catch.
Antonio and Watt got to Flacco just a fraction late.

So why didn't we double up on Boldin here, Rey?

In a sense we double up on the other receiver and Joseph was unable to defend Boldin on this play.
 
76texan, I understand like your play breakdowns, but jackson just isn't good. He's not a technique or a speed. Once he opens his hips, his speed is gone.his route rocognition. Is very poor also. Smith is a sped guy and he still gave up one of 2 routes he can run. I wish there was an easy fix, but cbs who can't run just doesn't work.

On the bouldin 56 yd pass, it was a terrible throw that joseph lost track of.
 
leebigeztx said:
76texan, I understand like your play breakdowns, but jackson just isn't good. He's not a technique or a speed. Once he opens his hips, his speed is gone.his route rocognition. Is very poor also. Smith is a sped guy and he still gave up one of 2 routes he can run. I wish there was an easy fix, but cbs who can't run just doesn't work.

.
Click to expand...

To me, on this play, Jackson (in cover 4) was looking to play a possible corner or seam route by the WR and the out route by the TE.

If it was man, then Jackson was bad on top of the usual poor scheme.

For in man coverage, to have a CB playing outside leverage against an inside release by the receiver is bad percentage.

"For a QB, a throw to the open field is an easy throw and also gives the receiver the whole field to work with.

On the other hand, a throw to the outside is a longer, more difficult throw. Besides, you have the sideline as your friend even if the receiver does make the catch."
 
Rey said:
Boldin is their best wr.

It makes more sense to double whoever Kareem is holding though.
Click to expand...
why? Torrey Smith is a rookie that is a one trick pony. He's still a poor route runner and is a long ball specialist (only)...that's why Jackson has the massive cushion.

I don't see what 76 sees in Jackson...all I see is a bunch of rationalizations. Don't get me wrong, rationalizations are more important than sex, so I can see where you are coming from.
 
Vinny said:
why? Torrey Smith is a rookie that is a one trick pony. He's still a poor route runner and is a long ball specialist (only)...that's why Jackson has the massive cushion.

I don't see what 76 sees in Jackson...all I see is a bunch of rationalizations. Don't get me wrong, rationalizations are more important than sex, so I can see where you are coming from.
Click to expand...

I was joking. Being facetious. Poking fun at Jackson.

Kareem has not been a good player.
 
Vinny said:
why? Torrey Smith is a rookie that is a one trick pony. He's still a poor route runner and is a long ball specialist (only)...that's why Jackson has the massive cushion.

I don't see what 76 sees in Jackson...all I see is a bunch of rationalizations. Don't get me wrong, rationalizations are more important than sex, so I can see where you are coming from.
Click to expand...

Against fast receiver, it's not uncommon for a CB to give more cushion than normal.
Ask Jason Allen when he gave up the long TD pass to Mike Wallace last year.

In this case, however, as I've mentioned to Rey before, it can be similar as in the Saints game, where Joseph was the one who normally gave more cushion to the receiver (at least in the last 3 scoring drives for the Saints that I took the screen shots of) regardless of whom he was on.

It depends on the coverage call, from what I see.

BTW, to be exact, KJ's cushion was 7 yards in a backpedal; Allen's was 8 yard in the shuffle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDdr6I-j1lw&feature=related
 
On a side note, it's kind of weird when people think that Kubiak's job is on the line and he keeps putting Jackson out there over Allen.
Perhaps Wade went along so he can take over Kubiak's job.
But wait, isn't Wade the guy who decides which guys play on defense?
So if he chooses to bench the better player, shouldn't it be on him?

:thinking:
 
76Texan said:
On a side note, it's kind of weird when people think that Kubiak's job is on the line and he keeps putting Jackson out there over Allen.
Perhaps Wade went along so he can take over Kubiak's job.
But wait, isn't Wade the guy who decides which guys play on defense?
So if he chooses to bench the better player, shouldn't it be on him?

:thinking:
Click to expand...
I don't think that either Jackson or Allen are starting caliber guys. Sure they have the body for it, but their body of work says that Allen is a dime corner, and Jackson is a nick. Texans just don't have anyone better really.
 
Vinny said:
I don't think that either Jackson or Allen are starting caliber guys. Sure they have the body for it, but their body of work says that Allen is a dime corner, and Jackson is a nick. Texans just don't have anyone better really.
Click to expand...

I think fans (including you, Vinny) can be to harsh on some player(s) at times.
Check out the Cardinals board to see how some of them are already on Patrick's Peterson case.

(And I'm pretty sure that almost all of them (if not all of them) were sky high when his name was called on draft day.

Actually, I've already bookmark a few pages.
Just let me have a little break first before I post the links.
 
76Texan said:
I think fans (including you, Vinny) can be to harsh on some player(s) at times.
Check out the Cardinals board to see how some of them are already on Patrick's Peterson case.

(And I'm pretty sure that almost all of them (if not all of them) were sky high when his name was called on draft day.

Actually, I've already bookmark a few pages.
Just let me have a little break first before I post the links.
Click to expand...
Calling Jackson a nick corner isn't harsh pards....it's just being a critical thinker - and speaking the truth as I see it. No long speed, no elite quickness, and a player that opens his hips too early time after time....heck, nickbacker is a complement.
 
Rey said:
You are writing your own narrative instead of seeing what actually happened. Boldin is their best receiver and it makes no sense to double him?

Seriously, why do you try to explain away anything bad Kareem does? Its hard to take your analysis serious. All you do is post stuff to highlight other corners mistakes and stuff to make kareem's screw ups someone elses fault.
Click to expand...
BTW, I've already know that you disagree with Dan Dierdoff.

I still want to note that he saw it the same way I do.
I'm not the only one who "dreams up" this scenario.
(Just so others know about it.)

Sure, Dierdoff played on the O-line, but at least he made the Pro-Bowl 7 times and was on the All-Decade team and he has been covering football since 1984.
He may not be right all the time (or even most of the time, or whatever), but at least he can offer a decent take - even when he's wrong.

When you use the term "seriously", you discount the fact that you may be wrong and the other person may be right.

I, on the other hand, always stand corrected.
I never claimed what I observed and what I analyzed are the absolute truth.
I always said that it's only my thinking and that I can be wrong.
 
Vinny said:
Calling Jackson a nick corner isn't harsh pards....it's just being a critical thinker - and speaking the truth as I see it. No long speed, no elite quickness, and a player that opens his hips too early time after time....heck, nickbacker is a complement.
Click to expand...

Hey for all I know, you could be right.
At the moment though, I have to go with my own evaluation.
We haven't gone through this but what I do know is that my overall take about the Texans players the last 3 years are pretty solid and I can put it up against yours (I'm pretty sure I've read plenty of your takes.)

Ok, I'm going to start posting some links about PP and the Cards.

First, this sounds like a situation we had with Jackson and McCain/Quin at the beginning of last year:

http://arizonasports.com/category/cardinals-articles/20111011/Cardinals-need-young-players-to-keep-improving/

Here are some posts from the Cards fans after their third game (against the Seahawks, in which he registered the INT).

http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=57821
.....

Really? It says he got an int on the stat sheet, and the fact that he had a quiet day is a great improvement from getting picked on in the previous games. (Notes: PP gave up a TD in each of the first two games.)
....

He had an int on a hail mary when there was 0.00 left on the half.

I just was disappointed on his punt returns, I felt before this game that he at least had that but now I'm doubting if he is going to play as large of impact as I thought he would.

He was against Seattle this week, probably one of the worst offensive teams in the league.
......

http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=57853


Maybe we need to put an * on that interception. I love this guy but that was a hail mary on the last play before the half. Not saying it's a gimme, just say'n.
.....



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was a gimme int for someone on the defense and it just happen to be peterson
....


This is just the beginning.
 
Last edited:
This is after the Skins game (and it was after Cam Newton tore the Cards up):


.....

Sad. Other fans get to talk about which part of their teams are the strongest. Look at us...

What's worse, our secondary or our O-line...
Neither, it's the linebackers...
None of those, it's the coaching...
Well, you can blame the coaching but the Front Office put them there...
Naah, it's the lack of a legitimate #2 receiver...
It's the pash rush...
.....

I'll add, its also a lack of heart. at least the first half. Completely just no fuel
...

http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=57633

Cards got dominated. It's that simple.


I am tired of seeing TE and WR catch the ball all day with thw closest DB at least 5 yrds away

......

A good QB would have put up 40 on the card today!

....

true. the score should not have been that close our D sucks donkey
...

I think we all need to cry some more
....
 
This one is about the other CB, AJ Jefferson, the UDFA that I was talking about:

....

He's looking like our first round cornerback pick. He's closing well while Peterson has been getting beat in every single game we have played this season....
 
http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=58252

This is afer the Vikings game:

Patrick Peterson is soft

...

After watching 2 TD's in the 1st quarter by AP I noticed that PP21 wanted no part of AP on the sideline and then he got run over inside the 5 yard line. I thought that PP21 was this freak with size, speed, and strength? Maybe it shows that he was just surrounded by some great players at LSU and it made him a better player. With the pass rush LSU had QB's would make terrible throws and PP was there to capitalize.
....

I agree as of right now, he's no good. Bottom line is AJ (Jefferson) is outplaying him. Perhaps that means good things, that AJ is and will be quite good, but as of now, 21 (Peterson) is a bad player
...

He's not soft! he's a rookie.
....

oh how hypocritical. when Peterson was not starting in the preseason the whole forum was in an uproar as to why isnt coach starting him! what an *****! omg why is he 3rd string?!

now Peterson is starting when it really matters and the same people are crying , omg peterson is a rookie! he isnt ready! why is he starting?! he is soft!

...

Well, I think Peterson is kind of lost out there because he is so pooly coached...
....

Getting bulldozed into the endzone is definitely embarrassing.

....

Looking back. I would much rather have Kerrigan or Aldon Smith on this team. Peterson is struggling bad which no one my self included ever would have thought.
.....
 
76 texan, I guess route recognition goes out the window and letting the man step in front of you also. Jackson is always in the trail technique.
 
leebigeztx said:
76 texan, I guess route recognition goes out the window and letting the man step in front of you also. Jackson is always in the trail technique.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. 76, even if you're right & that was cover 4 the diagram shows Kj over the top, where Joseph is supposed to jam & trail.

I'm ok with saying Manning screwed the pooch, maybe he thought the LB was supposed to widen out to cover the under on the TEs route, figured he'd be ok since Kj got the deep half. Then he noticed Kj was standing next to him & tried to recover.

But Kj was beat whether that was man or cover4. There's no way Smith should have been allowed behind him.

Over all, I think Kareem had a good game. 3 mistakes, 4 at the most. Two of them really hurt us.

If our offense put up 25 points, chewed up some clock, it wouldn't have hurt so bad.
 
Vinny said:
Calling Jackson a nick corner isn't harsh pards....it's just being a critical thinker - and speaking the truth as I see it. No long speed, no elite quickness, and a player that opens his hips too early time after time....heck, nickbacker is a complement.
Click to expand...

You are kinder then I am. I think both these guys are trash and if it wasn't for the Texans neither of these guys have a career in the NFL.

The sad thing is since 2007 we have drafted 11 CB/S and Jason Allen and Kareem Jackson are the best we got. So basically 28% of our draft over the last 5 years has been one big waste of time.
 
TEXANRED said:
You are kinder then I am. I think both these guys are trash and if it wasn't for the Texans neither of these guys have a career in the NFL.

The sad thing is since 2007 we have drafted 11 CB/S and Jason Allen and Kareem Jackson are the best we got. So basically 28% of our draft over the last 5 years has been one big waste of time.
Click to expand...

Repped

Looking at those numbers should get Rick/Gary fired.

You would think that1 out of the 11 would atleast be a competent NFL caliber CB. BTW, Molden looked better than Allen/KJ against the Cowgirls yesterday.
 
76Texan said:
When you use the term "seriously", you discount the fact that you may be wrong and the other person may be right.
Click to expand...

No...In the context I used "seriously" it means that I am not being an ass hole by asking the question and would like an honest answer.

I, on the other hand, always stand corrected.
I never claimed what I observed and what I analyzed are the absolute truth.
I always said that it's only my thinking and that I can be wrong.
Click to expand...

I put IMO after most of the stuff I write too. But that doesn't mean that there are times when I am convinced that I am right and the opposing view is not.

If you tell me Kareem has been a good player and constantly come up with narritives that excuse poor plays by him and always post poor plays from other corners and try to draw some kind of parallel I think you are wrong. JMO.
 
TEXANRED said:
You are kinder then I am. I think both these guys are trash and if it wasn't for the Texans neither of these guys have a career in the NFL.

The sad thing is since 2007 we have drafted 11 CB/S and Jason Allen and Kareem Jackson are the best we got. So basically 28% of our draft over the last 5 years has been one big waste of time.
Click to expand...

And this is a direct problem for the rest of the team. Wonder why we don't have more OL depth or a young WR capable of challenging Jacoby/Walter; too much time trusting that former DB Rick smith knows what he is looking at and trying to fix the roster versus build one.
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
And this is a direct problem for the rest of the team. Wonder why we don't have more OL depth or a young WR capable of challenging Jacoby/Walter; too much time trusting that former DB Rick smith knows what he is looking at and trying to fix the roster versus build one.
Click to expand...
bingo, our scouting department or at least the decison makers have proven they have no clue when it comes to drafting cb's, ss's, and fs's
 
thunderkyss said:
I agree with this. 76, even if you're right & that was cover 4 the diagram shows Kj over the top, where Joseph is supposed to jam & trail.

I'm ok with saying Manning screwed the pooch, maybe he thought the LB was supposed to widen out to cover the under on the TEs route, figured he'd be ok since Kj got the deep half. Then he noticed Kj was standing next to him & tried to recover.

But Kj was beat whether that was man or cover4. There's no way Smith should have been allowed behind him.

Over all, I think Kareem had a good game. 3 mistakes, 4 at the most. Two of them really hurt us.

If our offense put up 25 points, chewed up some clock, it wouldn't have hurt so bad.
Click to expand...

I understand, trust me, I do, but at some point you have to do your job. There isn't one play designed to give it up. Knowing your opponet is also a huge facet of the game. Torrey has shown the ability to run anything on the route tre other than a fly route or post. Jackson gave him a huge cushion because of his speed,like 7 yards. On a post route the stem is normally at 12-15 yds. Once in his back pedal and smith is closing, the stem comes. Because jackson can't open his hips wthout losing speed, once the stem came, the distance was created. If jackson had route recognitionor closing burst, flacco probably never throws that pass because flacco never throws a guy open. The window was there in the lag and now people are talking about manning biting a teaser route. In the nfl, you can't hide poor cb unless you have 85 bears pass rush.
 
If anyone has the ability to go back & watch the game, please look at the play the Ravens took @6:08 in the 4th Qtr.

It's 2nd & 6 from the Ravens' 37. The score is 19-14 Ravens. Tell me what you think of Kareem's defense of Torrey Smith's out route.

Then watch the next play where he defends a deep crossing route.
 
76Texan said:
Check out the Cardinals board to see how some of them are already on Patrick's Peterson case.

Actually, I've already bookmark a few pages.
Just let me have a little break first before I post the links.
Click to expand...
I just don't understand where you're going with this. Because Cards fans are down on Patrick Peterson, Kareem Jackson is judged too harshly? That makes zero sense. There's no correlation between the two, other than both are NFL CBs. What Patrick Peterson does or doesn't do has no bearing on Kareem Jackson's suckitude.
 
Vinny said:
Calling Jackson a nick corner isn't harsh pards....it's just being a critical thinker - and speaking the truth as I see it. No long speed, no elite quickness, and a player that opens his hips too early time after time....heck, nickbacker is a complement.
Click to expand...
Vinny, have any thoughts or comments on draft guru Mike Mayock ranking Kareem higher than NE corner Devin McCourty just prior to the 2010 NFL Draft ?
 
IDEXAN said:
Vinny, have any thoughts or comments on draft guru Mike Mayock ranking Kareem higher than NE corner Devin McCourty just prior to the 2010 NFL Draft ?
Click to expand...
some guys rated Leaf over Manning. It happens. Scouting is more of an art than a science.
 
Vinny said:
some guys rated Leaf over Manning. It happens. Scouting is more of an art than a science.
Click to expand...

I hate to break this news to you Vinny, but your Peyton of the CBs continued to struggle for the Pats.

He gave up his 5th TD of the year.
It should have been six, but he comiitted PI to prevent it (about 22-yd, but it could have been any distance.)
The receiver was so open he needed to waive to Romo for the ball.
An on-time ball, and Mccourty wouldn't even have a chance to commit PI.

He gave up all 6 passes thrown to his receiver and I was surprised the Cowboys didn't target him more in the second half after he gave up 4 passes and that PI in the first.

That was about 90 yards on those pass plays, and without the help of the safeties and LBs (who made the tackles), it would have been more.

The Texans made the right choice is what I see; or at least, it's too early to tell which guy will have a better career.

It will depend on who can improve more, but at the moment, I'm taking KJ over McCourty.
 
In fairness to McCourty, I want to clarify that the TD was a 2yd catch by Witten.
Bill Belichick had McCourty spying on the TE, following across the LOS.
Looks like Kubiak isn't the only guy who tries to outsmart himself.
 
Vinny said:
some guys rated Leaf over Manning. It happens. Scouting is more of an art than a science.
Click to expand...

76Texan said:
I hate to break this news to you Vinny, but your Peyton of the CBs continued to struggle for the Pats.
Click to expand...
Don't strawman me pards. I never compared McCourty to anyone. I just gave an example of how there are no set equations or finite workouts that can absolutely project any one player to be this good or that good. I must say that it's hard to read some of your ongoing man-love for Jackson after a while though. It almost feels like I need to take a shower after clicking on your analysis. I'm happy for Jackson though. It must feel good to have such a dedicated fan.
 
Vinny said:
Don't strawman me pards. I never compared McCourty to anyone. I just gave an example of how there are no set equations or finite workouts that can absolutely project any one player to be this good or that good. I must say that it's hard to read some of your ongoing man-love for Jackson after a while though. It almost feels like I need to take a shower after clicking on your analysis. I'm happy for Jackson though. It must feel good to have such a dedicated fan.
Click to expand...

Obviously, your examples were to the extreme, I did get that!
I do know you don't mean to compare them that way.

What's so wrong about my latest analysis though?
Kubiak did clarify the 51yd catch by Smith wasn't on KJ.
 
76Texan said:
Obviously, your examples were to the extreme, I did get that!
I do know you don't mean to compare them that way.

What's so wrong about my latest analysis though?
Kubiak did clarify the 51yd catch by Smith wasn't on KJ.
Click to expand...
I'm thinking I didn't agree with it. The start of the breakdown was on the middle linebacker since he was playing zone while everyone was in man. Manning reacted to the crossing target as nobody was covering him while KJ started with a gargantuan cushion but still ended up in trail. I'd say there were 3 breakdowns on that snap.
 
Lucky said:
I just don't understand where you're going with this. Because Cards fans are down on Patrick Peterson, Kareem Jackson is judged too harshly? That makes zero sense. There's no correlation between the two, other than both are NFL CBs. What Patrick Peterson does or doesn't do has no bearing on Kareem Jackson's suckitude.
Click to expand...

I have already answer this point in another post.
It shows a couple of different things:

A rookie CB who was asked by his DC to do as much as a veteran CB (one-on-one) do struggle and give up big plays, even a guy who was touted as the second-coming of Deion Sanders does struggle.

Unrealistic expectations by some fans make it easy to blame a player for some bad plays he didn't dcommit (on top of the ones he did commit.)

I'm sorry if you didn't see the correlation; some other posters did, that's all I can tell you.
 
Vinny said:
I'm thinking I didn't agree with it. The start of the breakdown was on the middle linebacker since he was playing zone while everyone was in man. Manning reacted to the crossing target as nobody was covering him while KJ started with a gargantuan cushion but still ended up in trail. I'd say there were 3 breakdowns on that snap.
Click to expand...

Oh, I agree about Cushing.
I read your posts earlier about that play.
I wanted to add to the analysis and what I understand from Wade's playbook (Falcons 2003).
Cushing was supposed to trail the TE.

The WR made a good adjustment.
As I understood, a post route is declared earlier than a corner route.
KJ has to wait for that before he should squeeze (a yard or two further.)

Had Manning get off the TE sooner, Jackson would be able to take over the duty. It would probably still result in a catch, but it should be for a much shorter gain.
 
If you slow it down, you can see that in between waiting for the receiver to declare his intention, Jackson lost all the cushion and a little more.
 
76Texan said:
Oh, I agree about Cushing.
I read your posts earlier about that play.
I wanted to add to the analysis and what I understand from Wade's playbook (Falcons 2003).
Cushing was supposed to trail the TE.

The WR made a good adjustment.
As I understood, a post route is declared earlier than a corner route.
KJ has to wait for that before he should squeeze (a yard or two further.)

Had Manning get off the TE sooner, Jackson would be able to take over the duty. It would probably still result in a catch, but it should be for a much shorter gain.
Click to expand...
I'm very confident that Jackson's technique was to be in man. Everyone else was in man coverage with 5 targets running in the second and third levels. Every target had a defender on him with a cover2 shell over the top. If KJ was playing zone, he wouldn't have had a full hip turn and sprinting with his man so early in the play. I think he was expecting help that wasn't there though.

I broke it down here.
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1806388&postcount=53
 
Vinny said:
I'm very confident that Jackson's technique was to be in man. Everyone else was in man coverage with 5 targets running in the second and third levels. Every target had a defender on him with a cover2 shell over the top. If KJ was playing zone, he wouldn't have had a full hip turn and sprinting with his man so early in the play. I think he was expecting help that wasn't there though.

I broke it down here.
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1806388&postcount=53
Click to expand...

I read those posts earlier, as I said.

To me, when I look at Wade's playbook against this offensive formation, the way the defense lined up, it matches with cover 4 (which is slightly different from cover 8).

Cover 4
Cover4vsblackout.jpg


Cover 8
Cover8vsblackout.jpg
 
Lucky said:
I just don't understand where you're going with this. Because Cards fans are down on Patrick Peterson, Kareem Jackson is judged too harshly? That makes zero sense. There's no correlation between the two, other than both are NFL CBs. What Patrick Peterson does or doesn't do has no bearing on Kareem Jackson's suckitude.
Click to expand...

Really

Is it to much to asfk for the Texans to draft compeyent players?

And if they miss on a pick is it too much to ask for them to admit they made a mistake and move on.

Currenyly it appears that they are only compounding their mistake.
 
In cover 4, as the diagram depicts, the WCB (Joseph) played up on the receiver (Boldin). On Cover 8, Joseph would play off-man.

The MO (Sharpton) played the weak hook and took on the receiver going to his area (the RB)

The SAM (Barwin) and the MIKE (Cushing) were in zone match on the #2 and #3.
Barwin followed the widest (FB Leach), Cushing dropped back but failed to follow the TE.

No matter what, the SS Manning needs to read a little better.
As the QB made more than a 5-step drop, Manning should get back immediately (he was about a couple of steps late).

That is how I saw it.

LINE-UP.jpg


PATTERN.jpg


Receiverroutetree.jpg


The whole sequence can be found here:
http://s1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd384/76Texan/Week%206%20at%20Ravens/51yd%20pass%20to%20TSmith/
 
Vinny said:
If KJ was playing zone, he wouldn't have had a full hip turn and sprinting with his man so early in the play. I think he was expecting help that wasn't there though.
Click to expand...

If you are in man coverage, expecting safety help to the inside, it makes sense to allow the WR to pass you to the inside. He did nothing wrong.

However, I believe Manning crossed his face well before Smith challenged him deep. If Kj sees #38 in front of him, he should know he has no help & adjust. He's screwed, since the possible routes Smith can run from this moment is limit less, he's got to make a decision & go with it. I can't think of any decision he should have made that would over-rule staying deeper than the receiver.
 
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