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WolverineFan's 2016 Mock Draft - v1.0

Mollywhopper said:
You're now counting Jake Matthews and CJ Mosley as lesser LBs or OL? And we aren't arguing over whether Elliot is that good, that's not the premise. And why are you arguing taking two guys over one?

I think this has jumped the track.
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'Lesser' is an abstract that got pushed out. I was looking up the last time I posted a mock and in it I sold the draft for those two, and that idea manifested here - my bad. You tell me who's lesser. It doesn't change my opinion. We already (when healthy) have the best runningback in the league. We wouldn't be much (if any) better with the next best back in the league - Peterson. Taking a back in the first round who would probably never reach those two guys ... doesn't make much sense to me. Runningbacks don't carry teams anymore. Guys who can protect the quarterback and defend the middle of the field, they have an accumulative effect much greater than a singular talent ... in my humble opinion.

Edit: I seriously need to learn when it's time to postpone my circular ramblings. Not my finest series of posts lol.
 
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Scooter said:
I don't think so. We have (when healthy) the best runningback in the NFL. We had him at his peak under a head coach who could make the most of his talents and a scheme to maximize that talent. And what came of it? Is Elliot better than prime Foster? Can he quite literally carry the franchise? I don't think so, because the odds of him being as good as Foster or Peterson (who also can't carry the franchise alone) are slim. Jim Brown on the Texans is not going to change our fate. Jake Matthews and CJ Mosley would do quite a bit of good for the next 10 years. Franchise players, lifetime players. They're not pretty, but winning teams without all-world quarterbacks like the Steelers and Ravens have never been called pretty.
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1) You can't use the "when healthy" qualifier anymore. Foster is now 29 years old and constantly dinged up. Injury concerns/criticisms are part of the conversation. During his prime Foster was part of a bigger picture. A picture that included a porous defense and then, once shored up, a swift decline at the QB position. Saying a top tier RB isn't worth the investment just because we didn't win a SB with Foster is ridiculous. Should I assume Matt Forte or Adrian Peterson aren't worth their weight for Chicago or Minnesota just because they can't surround those guys with a winning product?

2) Am I missing something here on this specific OT/LB debate? Jake Matthews has been a marginal starter at best thus far. Mosley has been a good player and Baltimore's defense still isn't any better than ours. Texans are 11th in Total Defense and 26th in Scoring Defense. Ravens are 13th in Total Defense and 23rd in Scoring Defense.

If the debate is OT > RB then I agree. But it depends on the talent available. Laremy Tunsil or Ronnie Stanley > Elliott? Absolutely. Taylor Decker or Jack Conklin > Elliott? No thanks. I said from the beginning that my top targets were Goff then Stanley but that I didn't see us in a position to draft either. I understand the differences in positional values but you don't pass on more talented players just to hit on certain designated needs. That's how you end up with guys like Tyson Alualu or Tyson Jackson in the 1st round instead of guys like Earl Thomas or Alex Mack.
 
Is there a place where we can find out the play speed estimates of prospects? I'm tired of seeing 40 times that don't match up with play speed. We need PLAY SPEED in FULL PADS! In fact, I suggest all future combine and pro day work be done in full pads and cleats.
 
Marshall said:
Is there a place where we can find out the play speed estimates of prospects? I'm tired of seeing 40 times that don't match up with play speed. We need PLAY SPEED in FULL PADS! In fact, I suggest all future combine and pro day work be done in full pads and cleats.
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Ya, the games.

I know that sounds smartass but I'm being sincere. Workout times are never meant to be the end all measurement of a prospect. At some point people started squawking 40 times as gospel and the whole meaning got wonky. Those times are meant to lend a framework for evaluating gametape. Think a guy looked fast/slow on the filed, check it with his workout numbers. Need a further estimate, check it against a similar player or a player they've run against in a game.

Between gametape and the myriad workouts these guys do it's not too hard to get a good grasp on how fast a guy actually is in full pads.
 
Jason Spriggs has really looked very suspect in Indiana's first series. Getting beat badly, no lateral movement.

Kessler had his worst game against Washington.

Spriggs is looking better but I'm still not seeing anything that warrants a high draft pick
 
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utahmark said:
Why not just win as many as we can? It's not like the number 1 pick has ever helped us?
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Don't be a party pooper. This is all we have left.
PapaL said:
Teddy was too frail, according to some. Guess we should remove Goff from the list now.
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Goff is kinda skinny. So was this guy.

tom-brady-nfl-combinejpg-e3968c20398628c0.jpg



Mollywhopper said:
Between gametape and the myriad workouts these guys do it's not too hard to get a good grasp on how fast a guy actually is in full pads.
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Still, it's only a matter of time to when football's version of MLB Statcast becomes reality. Then we'll know that Fournette topped out at 21.5mph on his TD run and Goff's TD pass velocity was 58mph.
 
Texian said:
Jason Spriggs has really looked very suspect in Indiana's first series. Getting beat badly, no lateral movement.

Kessler had his worst game against Washington.

Spriggs is looking better but I'm still not seeing anything that warrants a high draft pick
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Kessler was brutal against Washington. Not much else to say there.

Not really watching the Indiana game so can't comment on Spriggs today. He was very good against Ohio State late week though.
 
Cody Kessler - http://www.draftinsider.net/blog/?p=10883

And now many may be surprised to find there are a good number of west coast scouts who believe Trojan’s quarterback Cody Kessler could end up as a last day pick.

Scouts ranked Kessler as the top senior quarterback entering the season ahead of Michigan State’s Connor Cook but the more they watch the more they are concerned by the physical limitations Kessler brings.

The feeling is his lack of height (under 6-feet/2-inches), average arm strength and below average foot speed won’t translate well to the next level and the physical skills are unworthy of a top 100 selection.
 
I liked what I saw from Kessler in his earlier games because he was poised, accurate, and didn't turn the ball over. He had physical limitations but he let his mental tools and intangibles take his game to a higher level.

We did not see that against Washington. I saw a guy who was overwhelmed and didn't have the talent to compensate.
 
Scooter said:
I don't think so. We have (when healthy) the best runningback in the NFL. We had him at his peak under a head coach who could make the most of his talents and a scheme to maximize that talent. And what came of it? Is Elliot better than prime Foster? Can he quite literally carry the franchise? I don't think so, because the odds of him being as good as Foster or Peterson (who also can't carry the franchise alone) are slim. Jim Brown on the Texans is not going to change our fate. Jake Matthews and CJ Mosley would do quite a bit of good for the next 10 years. Franchise players, lifetime players. They're not pretty, but winning teams without all-world quarterbacks like the Steelers and Ravens have never been called pretty.

Edit: The best example I can think of is Dallas taking Frederick an entire round early (with cooler heads adding Martin the following draft). They got their center for the next 15 years ... done. This is a winning philosophy IMO. First 2 rounds need to be players who are expected to be lifetime players - not projects, not greatest evers ... lifetime starters. Swing for the fences after that.
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Not saying Elliott is Brown but he could be. More to the point, I disagree with the bold in your statement; in that a very good RB especially with power and speed that Ezekial has could change our fate. Keeping our D off field, eating clock and more importantly scoring TDs and giving QB an quality option. Foster has been good at yardage when healthy but not enough TDs IMO. I had hoped to see Blue offer Foster some resting time this season.
 
This is where our philosophies are probably going to differ. I'm of the mind that a good coach and a wealth of talent on the offensive line can turn just about any back into someone great. Kubiak did as much while assembling the line with Slaton, Dayne, Foster, Tate and then Forsett in Baltimore. Outside of Foster, that's an epic pile of crap at the RB position who each had strong production. A healthy foster is arguably the best back in the league, and as we saw last year goes a long way to helping the team do the things you said (he's also lead the league in TD's). A great thing to have, but a lower priority on my chart (and everyone else's by the draft trends) than an offensive lineman. I want to see lanes you could drive a truck through, because for every Barry Sanders making something out of nothing there are 20 Trent Richardsons running into teammates. Win in the trenches first.
 
Scooter said:
This is where our philosophies are probably going to differ. I'm of the mind that a good coach and a wealth of talent on the offensive line can turn just about any back into someone great. Kubiak did as much while assembling the line with Slaton, Dayne, Foster, Tate and then Forsett in Baltimore. Outside of Foster, that's an epic pile of crap at the RB position who each had strong production. A healthy foster is arguably the best back in the league, and as we saw last year goes a long way to helping the team do the things you said (he's also lead the league in TD's). A great thing to have, but a lower priority on my chart (and everyone else's by the draft trends) than an offensive lineman. I want to see lanes you could drive a truck through, because for every Barry Sanders making something out of nothing there are 20 Trent Richardsons running into teammates. Win in the trenches first.
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The problem with that logic is that for all the good he got out of those guys he never turned them into someone truly great. That doesn't fly in a discussion where the premise is that the back being discussed could truly be great. Now, you may not believe he can be, but if it's possible then his value could debatably take precedent over other solid position guys.
 
Mollywhopper said:
The problem with that logic is that for all the good he got out of those guys he never turned them into someone truly great.
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Because they weren't great. They weren't even average - Dayne was on his way out of the league, Slaton wouldn't have survived a single season anywhere else, and Tate lasted all of 10 minutes with his next team (and is sitting on his couch at 27 years old). Those were pretty terrible players by NFL standards and yet were able to be productive because of coaching and what we were able to assemble on the offensive line.

I think it's way past time I bow out of this thread though. I've stated my opinion.
 
Scooter said:
Because they weren't great. They weren't even average - Dayne was on his way out of the league, Slaton wouldn't have survived a single season anywhere else, and Tate lasted all of 10 minutes with his next team (and is sitting on his couch at 27 years old). Those were pretty terrible players by NFL standards and yet were able to be productive because of coaching and what we were able to assemble on the offensive line.
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Alex Gibbs is the Godfather of the Zone Blocking System and the running game. He has taken many middle round drafted OL along with average and ordinary RBs and and led the league in rushing multiple times with multiple teams.
 
Texian said:
Alex Gibbs is the Godfather of the Zone Blocking System and the running game. He has taken many middle round drafted OL along with average and ordinary RBs and and led the league in rushing multiple times with multiple teams.
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He knows this, Scooter wants to give Kubiak credit for everything that went right in the Kubiak era and no blame even when 6-10, 2-14 happens. I will give Kubiak credit for this, he knew HOF'er Alex Gibbs well enough that Gibbs would work for him. Gibbs is a crusty no nonsense type who wont just work for anybody.
 
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