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What do we do about Rick Smith?

Runner said:
For the sake of this point, I'll narrow this discussion down to Brown at left tackle. I consider a young Orlando Pace an example of a "franchise" left tackle. A team drafts him, starts him immediately, and (barring injury) doesn't worry about the position in the long term and doesn't worry about the position in the short term i.e. game to game matchups.

Calling Duane Brown a franchise left tackle dilutes the term. He's an adequate starter for this franchise. That's about it.
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well, you've railed on me for putting charles spencer into the hall of fame, and by that count no i dont think we've landed an all world guy lol. where you're not seeing orlando pace for 15 years, i do see a more than above average guy who will perform at a high level for a long time and is capable of handling his job. we're not going to get adrian peterson and chris johnson backing him up, with peyton throwing the ball to andre johnson and randy moss ... your suggestion of franchise appears to be more of an all-world superstar than a 5-10 year "franchise" starter. duane brown isnt the best player at his position, but he's a very good second year player that's only going to get better and will be able to man his position at a very high level for hopefully a very long time. he's not orlando pace, but who is?

actually, rereading your post. didnt you just describe duane brown? we drafted him early, started immediately (rotating a backup because of rookie conditioning), we wont be addressing the position barring injury and by early indicators will extend his contract as starter, and shift protection to his side as rarely as any team in the league. an easy arguement can be made that that's because winston is much weaker in pass pro, but considering who duane has to go against it should be more than a wash. schaub's putting up top 5 numbers with a 2nd year player protecting his blind side.
 
This team has a lot of talent. Not every pick is ever going to work out for everyone. Smith has done an excellent job imo
 
Runner said:
For the sake of this point, I'll narrow this discussion down to Brown at left tackle. I consider a young Orlando Pace an example of a "franchise" left tackle. A team drafts him, starts him immediately, and (barring injury) doesn't worry about the position in the long term and doesn't worry about the position in the short term i.e. game to game matchups.

Calling Duane Brown a franchise left tackle dilutes the term. He's an adequate starter for this franchise. That's about it.
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So now in order to be a franchise player, you have to be a future hall of famer? C'mon, this is a huge stretch and you know it. There are plenty of reliable LTs that come no where near Orlando Pace and yet the team considers that position set.

Brown isn't going to make 10 pro bowls, but he's certainly more reliable than anyone we've ever had on that edge before.
 
Well, we have different interpretations of "franchise left tackle". No surprise there.

I don't think Pace is setting the bar too high; to me he is a perfect example of a franchise player. I've watched him agaist Freeny, and he just handled him. That is what I mean by not worrying about a game day matchup. I think there is some worry in the Texans organization when Freeny is slated to line up across from Brown.

If the interpretation of franchise left tackle means he starts for this franchise and isn't in immediate need of an upgrade, then Brown is a franchise left tackle.

Words like great, franchise, etc. get tossed around so much they start to lose their meaning.
 
How many franchise players do people think the Texans have on the roster right now?
 
Scrap this entire regime. After this year the Texans don't need anything traced back to this entire 4 year failure. SMith has made some pretty good draft picks, but he hasn't done anything overly spectacular that plenty of other teams have been able to do in the draft. He's been a decent GM in the draft.

As far as free agency goes, he's been dreadful. He hasn't hardly brought in anyone since he's been here in the off season that's been worth a damn. Keeping SMith around will most likely hinder our chances at certain HC's like Cowher and Holmgren any way. I'd like to get our hands on an experienced GM or get a HC that we can trust that can handle both duties. I normally don't like HC"s to have both duties, but I'm sick of these experiments and I'm sick of playing the waiting game. If people want to credit Rick SMith so much, they have to remember that Kubes played a large role in a lot of the draft picks as well, some credit goes back to Kubes there as well and it's not like Smith made all these great picks that Kubes just screwed up. One way or the other, this entire regime has been a failure and it all needs to be scrapped.
 
Btw, some of you did change my mind about the "start immediately" statement. I certainly consider Brady a franchise player, and he didn't start right away. He certainly latched onto the job when he got his chance though.
 
Runner said:
How many franchise players do people think the Texans have on the roster right now?
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I'm with you on this, Runner.

To me, a franchise player is someone you build your team around. Accordingly, we have one of those guys and his name is Andre Johnson.

I think you could argue a case for Mario and/or Cushing being those guys as well, but I'll stick with AJ as our sole franchise player ATM.
 
gtexan02 said:
So now in order to be a franchise player, you have to be a future hall of famer? C'mon, this is a huge stretch and you know it. There are plenty of reliable LTs that come no where near Orlando Pace and yet the team considers that position set.

Brown isn't going to make 10 pro bowls, but he's certainly more reliable than anyone we've ever had on that edge before.
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It is absolutley not a stretch for the idea of franchise players to be considered the very best at a position...i.e. guys you build an entire frachise around. Because some one starts for you 8-10 years does not make him one of the best in the league, it makes him a starting quality player. The definition am seeing here Chester Pitts is franchise LG, I mean has started pretty much unchallenged for his entire career and been a reliable player.
 
Let's just ask Andre Johnson What he wants us to do. Remember, there were short rumors of a threat to force a trade or something. Whatever Andre wants, he gets is how i see us salvaging this. He's a once in a lifetime player. C'mon Texans. Get on with it.
 
Runner said:
How many franchise players do people think the Texans have on the roster right now?
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nero THE zero said:
I'm with you on this, Runner.

To me, a franchise player is someone you build your team around. Accordingly, we have one of those guys and his name is Andre Johnson.

I think you could argue a case for Mario and/or Cushing being those guys as well, but I'll stick with AJ as our sole franchise player ATM.
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I can agree. IMO, AJ is our only proven franchise player. D-Ryans, Cush and MW have the "potential", with D-Ryans being the closer of the 3.
 
Best Case Scenario:
He stays on and works with the new head coach and its a smooth transition

Worst Case Scenario:
He stays on and our list of head coaching possibilities shrinks because guys like Cowher want their own GM in place
 
HOU-TEX said:
I can agree. IMO, AJ is our only proven franchise player. D-Ryans, Cush and MW have the "potential", with D-Ryans being the closer of the 3.
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what more should Cushing have done to make your "franchise player" list (As a rookie he is the #1 OLB in a 4-3)?
 
Runner said:
Well, we have different interpretations of "franchise left tackle". No surprise there.

I don't think Pace is setting the bar too high; to me he is a perfect example of a franchise player. I've watched him agaist Freeny, and he just handled him. That is what I mean by not worrying about a game day matchup. I think there is some worry in the Texans organization when Freeny is slated to line up across from Brown.

If the interpretation of franchise left tackle means he starts for this franchise and isn't in immediate need of an upgrade, then Brown is a franchise left tackle.

Words like great, franchise, etc. get tossed around so much they start to lose their meaning.
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i think that's where you're going to get most or all of the arguements against. pace for several seasons was the best player at his position ... he quite literally set the bar for today's players. the second is stoning freeney ... being possibly the only guy to tame the hall of famer speaks of him, not everyone else. pace and walter jones were monsters - by that implication only 2 teams had franchise tackles in this generation.
 
beerlover said:
what more should Cushing have done to make your "franchise player" list (As a rookie he is the #1 OLB in a 4-3)?
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He's a rookie. To me, a franchise player is one that has proven he can bring it every season. Other than his injury season, AJ has brought it every season. Even with YKW at QB.
 
i'm missing this franchise arguement. franchise to me means houston, not 15 probowls or dunta's 10mil contract. chester pitts is a franchise player - a player this franchise has locked into position to build around. aj, ryans, mario, cushing, daniels, pollard, schaub, duane brown, and similar IMO are deserving of a franchise label as pieces we need to retain and build this franchise around to be successful - if given the opportunity these guys spend their careers in houston. keeping these franchise players for extended contracts and adding similar players are what will make our whole look in 5 years like what the steelers have now.
 
I have a hard time evaluating Rick Smith because it seems like always at the end of the day personnel decisions go through Gary Kubiak.

He's been underwhelming on FAs. Hit and miss in the draft, but again how much input does the coaching staff have on this one?

IMO we sorely needed our top three picks to make an impact this year if we were going to make a playoff push. Cushing is ROY material, but then again LB usually has a good opportunity to be. Barwin has been a major disapointment and a bad pick, considering what other players could have been selected. Caldwell looked the role, but for some reason hasn't been able to make it on the field. Instead we've got Kubiak guys like Studdard and White.

I guess the question I keep asking is how time much does bringing the team back from a 2-14 season and a disaster of a roster give you?
 
HOU-TEX said:
I've got Dre and Demeco.
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I'm kinda on the fence with D-Ryans. He had an off year last year. IMO, he's still a liability in coverage.

Still love the guy though. :)
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I think Dre is a clear franchise player.

Ryans is more borderline, but I still give him the edge. I hope I don't get accused of being too liberal with my tossing around of the term "franchise player". :)
 
Scooter said:
i'm missing this franchise arguement. franchise to me means houston, not 15 probowls or dunta's 10mil contract. chester pitts is a franchise player - a player this franchise has locked into position to build around. aj, ryans, mario, cushing, daniels, pollard, schaub, duane brown, and similar IMO are deserving of a franchise label as pieces we need to retain and build this franchise around to be successful - if given the opportunity these guys spend their careers in houston. keeping these franchise players for extended contracts and adding similar players are what will make our whole look in 5 years like what the steelers have now.
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Yeah, you are mixing the idea of a quality starter and franchise player. Franchise players generally should be a dominate complete player who regularly changes the game and can do so in almost any situation. . You are listing guys who can and should start for years, but are not true difference makers. The quality starters have more value to a particular system and/or team and a team should hang on to as long as possible, but are not elite nor consistently make an impact. To a large extent, they are high-end "worker bess"
 
nunusguy said:
Smith is the young African-American GM and face of management that gives McNair the look of a progressive, PC organization that is probably important to the owner.
Did he make the choices, was his input significant in the Draft picks since he's
been here ? If so that's certainly worth something because Cushing and Duane Brown have been productive top picks even though the wisdom of the Okoye choice is obviously dubious. FA acquisions are another story.
If McNair were to replace Kubiak with a non big-name coach, keeping Smith might be the way to go but if he really wants to get a high-profile guy like Cowher then that calibre coach probably wants a dual role of HC-GM meaning
Smiths would be gone.
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I like Smith staying as our GM, however, If a guy like Cowher comes in and requires dual roles as GM/HC, then I say goodbye to Smith. If they can coexist together, I think that would be ideal. One thing I know for sure, its time for a change at the HC position.
 
ArlingtonTexan said:
Yeah, you are mixing the idea of a quality starter and franchise player. Franchise players generally should be a dominate complete player who regularly changes the game and can do so in almost any situation. . You are listing guys who can and should start for years, but are not true difference makers. The quality starters have more value to a particular system and/or team and a team should hang on to as long as possible, but are not elite nor consistently make an impact. To a large extent, they are high-end "worker bess"
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i see what you mean and i guess that's where i'll seperate. the popular description of a franchise player to me seems more like a league mvp, where i see a franchise player as a player for the franchise. by terms chester pitts isnt a franchise player, but to me is someone the texans have and will continue to lean the franchise on - same as andre and the players mentioned. in the opposite arguement, joey porter could be considered a steelers franchise player - playing for miami. randy moss, albert haynesworth, and others ... what's a franchise player on another team?

if duane brown plays 12 years as the starting left tackle at a high level for the texans, is a fan favorite (which he's doing for a top 5 passing offense in his 2 years starting left tackle) ... but he never gets a probowl invitation or any national recognition whatsoever, is he a franchise player?
 
AJ is a no brainer.

Cushing to me has proven that he'll be a franchise LB for sure.


However Demeco seemed to be that way as well, but he hasn't been as great of a player the last two seasons. He is a leader though and brings the full effort. I guess he would still fit in that category, but he needs to get back to playing like he did in his first two seasons.

Mario, I'm not so sure anymore. He's been very disappointing this season. He doesn't seem to have a ton of moves at his position and really hasn't been a game changing DE this year. I'm on the fence with him now and I'm not going to make any excuses for him right now as far as not having a lot of talent around him on the D Line. He should be playing a lot better than he has this season. He was the #1 pick in the draft and is coming off of a 12 and 11 sack season.

Owen Daniels is a franchise TE, no question.
 
Back to the original topic.

I don't think you should have to do anything with Rick Smith. He's the general manager and if you fire Gary Kubiak after the season then he participates in the coaching search. He's not on the coaching staff, he can't "only" find one type of player (the "Denver" type) I would hope. He should be able to work with the incoming head coach and if that head coach ends up being somebody like Bill Cowher then Rick Smith may see some of his duties given to the coach but other things he does will no doubt be outside of the realm of responsibilities any head coach could possibly want. General Managers in the NFL don't all do the job the same way and don't all have the same level of responsibility.

He works for Bob McNair and so I presume he'll do what Bob McNair tells him to do or pack his bags. If the owner doesn't feel competent enough to tell his GM, who is under contract what he expects of him then we've got bigger problems than Gary Kubiak. This isn't a problem if Bob will just put the big-man pants on and act like an NFL owner for a change.
 
Scooter said:
i see what you mean and i guess that's where i'll seperate. the popular description of a franchise player to me seems more like a league mvp, where i see a franchise player as a player for the franchise. by terms chester pitts isnt a franchise player, but to me is someone the texans have and will continue to lean the franchise on - same as andre and the players mentioned. in the opposite arguement, joey porter could be considered a steelers franchise player - playing for miami. randy moss, albert haynesworth, and others ... what's a franchise player on another team?

if duane brown plays 12 years as the starting left tackle at a high level for the texans, is a fan favorite (which he's doing for a top 5 passing offense in his 2 years starting left tackle) ... but he never gets a probowl invitation or any national recognition whatsoever, is he a franchise player?
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He would effectively be Flozell Adams for the Cowboys. How you think of Adams would be how to think of Brown in the situation you painted. As some who lives in cowboyville, I think Adams is a decent to good player at a hard replace position, but is not a "franchise" player, although he has been valuable to the franchise. It is not a knock on a player to say he is not one of the handful great players in the league, just that everyone can't be classified as franchise.
 
Hervoyel said:
Back to the original topic.

I don't think you should have to do anything with Rick Smith. He's the general manager and if you fire Gary Kubiak after the season then he participates in the coaching search. He's not on the coaching staff, he can't "only" find one type of player (the "Denver" type) I would hope. He should be able to work with the incoming head coach and if that head coach ends up being somebody like Bill Cowher then Rick Smith may see some of his duties given to the coach but other things he does will no doubt be outside of the realm of responsibilities any head coach could possibly want. General Managers in the NFL don't all do the job the same way and don't all have the same level of responsibility.

He works for Bob McNair and so I presume he'll do what Bob McNair tells him to do or pack his bags. If the owner doesn't feel competent enough to tell his GM, who is under contract what he expects of him then we've got bigger problems than Gary Kubiak. This isn't a problem if Bob will just put the big-man pants on and act like an NFL owner for a change.
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I agree here 100%.

Kinda off-topic, but does anyone know who the GM was, in any, the last couple years Cowher was in Pitt? Will he truly ask for 100% control over personel?
 
HOU-TEX said:
I agree here 100%.

Kinda off-topic, but does anyone know who the GM was, in any, the last couple years Cowher was in Pitt? Will he truly ask for 100% control over personel?
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I'm not sure really. My guess is that someone in the Rooney family was making the picks and the decisions, but Cowher probably had a huge influence on all of them and someone just signed off on them. Regardless of who it was, Cowher had a lot of control and influence either way. If Cowher were to come here though, my guess is that he would want that control again whether it would be as the GM/coach or a lot of influence on the GM. I wouldn't have any problem with that if it were Cowher though. I'd trust that guy's vision and philosophy any day. I wouldn't with a lot of coaches though as far as letting them be the coach and the GM. I would with Cowher or Holmgren though.
 
HOU-TEX said:
I agree here 100%.

Kinda off-topic, but does anyone know who the GM was, in any, the last couple years Cowher was in Pitt? Will he truly ask for 100% control over personel?
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Kevin Colbert.

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2009/5/19/879711/how-successful-has-kevin-colbert

How I feel is unless McNair is going to want a strong, seperate GM they might as well retain Smith through the end of his contract.

I'm not sure he exactly deserves it but, IF the Texans do make a change in coaching I would hope he can do better on his end.
 
If I were Rick Smith in this situation I would resist the urge to try and steer McNair away from somebody like Cowher (or any experienced "name" coach like that). It would be entirely understandable to feel threatened by a coach who's x percent GM as well but if he could get past that it would be a great opportunity to work with someone he could learn from. If Rick Smith couldn't do that then I think he's probably need to go or might even go of his own accord. I personally think he's a promising young GM who could benefit from exposure to the culture of another team. He'd be a fool to pass up that chance.
 
Mr. White said:
FWIW, here's what Richard Justice says about the situation.
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You actually read something that moron posted? That guy should be run out of town before Kubiak or Rick Smith.

I wish we could get a huge group together and complain to the editor in order to get the guy moved to the obituary column.
 
Big Lou said:
You actually read something that moron posted? That guy should be run out of town before Kubiak or Rick Smith.

I wish we could get a huge group together and complain to the editor in order to get the guy moved to the obituary column.
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Say what you want about Richard Justice and I know that he's not a popular figure around here, but it turns out that a lot of stuff that he's said over the last two years was true and was correct regarding Kubiak and his staff.
 
Big Lou said:
You actually read something that moron posted? That guy should be run out of town before Kubiak or Rick Smith.

I wish we could get a huge group together and complain to the editor in order to get the guy moved to the obituary column.
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I pay more attention to what's being said rather than who's saying it. I could care less what a bunch of people on a message board say about a given journalist.
 
dalemurphy said:
like what?
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A ton of stuff that he criticized Kubiak and Smith over in the last two years where many people bashed him for and said he had no clue. He was right about a lot of his criticisms with Kubiak whether you like the guy or not. He's also been correct on quite a few things he has said about Mcnair as a hands off owner in the past. I've heard a lot of people bash him for saying a lot of stuff regarding Kubes and Mcnair's long leash and lack of accountability. I'd say that the current condition of this franchise right now indicates that he knew a little bit of what he was talking about.
 
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