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Welcome to Houston CJ Stroud

I cannot believe that no one is discussing Kenny picket's S2 results. Why not? This is what we should have been talking about all week. I imagine the Steelers message boards are lighting up in discussion about his S2. Do the Steelers have message board?

Did anyone ask Nick caserio about Pickett S2?
 
badboy said:
I cannot believe that no one is discussing Kenny picket's S2 results. Why not? This is what we should have been talking about all week. I imagine the Steelers message boards are lighting up in discussion about his S2. Do the Steelers have message board?

Did anyone ask Nick caserio about Pickett S2?
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That’s because no one brought it up hoping to tank his stock.
 
Thought I'd add to the general discussion from the global NFL media as it seems like they're all catching on to the fact that CJ might be really good. This coming from two scouting types I really respect in Bucky and DJ.


(Not sure if my timestamp worked but the talk starts around the 13:35 mark)

"RIP the S2 by the way, thoughts and prayers"

Also if CJ's season continues in this way and finishes well I fully expect the S2 owners and people to start leaning in much harder to the fact that they said some leaked results weren't correct and people were putting out false scores. There's no way that they get to the end of the season and let their brand and their test get damaged this bad. Just calling it now.
 
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steelbtexan said:
BTW, Stroud better get rid of the ball quickly this game, the ol is in shambles.
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Slowick better draw up a gameplan that involves stacking his receivers for quick hit slant game. 3-Step drop or Shotgun and let the receivers do the damage. No doubt the Steelers will be in blitz mode, so it’s imperative to scrap the run game early and hope the quick hit pass game can slow down the defense. This game could come down to FG’s.
 
Sweech said:
Thought I'd add to the general discussion from the global NFL media as it seems like they're all catching on to the fact that CJ might be really good. This coming from two scouting types I really respect in Bucky and DJ.


"RIP the S2 by the way, thoughts and prayers"

Also if CJ's season continues in this way and finishes well I fully expect the S2 owners and people to start leaning in much harder to the fact that they said some leaked results weren't correct and people were putting out false scores. There's no way that they get to the end of the season and let their brand and their test get damaged this bad. Just calling it now.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of people had a wrong idea about the S2 - and I even believe that the people, that have designed it, were actively trying to put that right. A test like this won't tell you, who will be a good or bad QB. It is all about probabilities. There are a lot of reasons, why the results of a test may vary from day to day - and there are a lot of reasons, why some players may be good at it and some may be bad, that don't have much to do with them playing QB. I do believe that there is a correlation between the S2 result and the success at QB, but that doesnt mean, that this is a clear indicator - it just means that a player with a higher S2 score is more probable to also have a better career.

But this still doesn't mean, that there is causation. There may be other reasons that lead to people being good at S2 - maybe most NFL players are enthusiastic video game players. And maybe being a video game player leads to having advantages at the S2 score. Maybe most people use the same part of the brain you need for the S2-test that they also use for reading coverages - and maybe other players use another part of the brain.

So the S2 score is probably a good piece of the puzzle for QB evaluation - but it should never been more than a small part.
 
Sweech said:
Also if CJ's season continues in this way and finishes well I fully expect the S2 owners and people to start leaning in much harder to the fact that they said some leaked results weren't correct and people were putting out false scores.
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The S2 guy tried to do that after the scores were leaked. He was basically ignored.
LikeMike said:
I do believe that there is a correlation between the S2 result and the success at QB, but that doesnt mean, that this is a clear indicator - it just means that a player with a higher S2 score is more probable to also have a better career.
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The S2 people will say a good score on the test does not indicate the QB will be good. But a bad score on the test will tell you the QB will not be good. So it supposedly will filter out some bad QBs. But with no raw data, how can anyone outside the S2 circle of trust make these decisions? Ignore film. Ignore the workouts and interviews. This guy won't make it because he didn't play this video game well. It's ridiculous on its face.
 
Lucky said:
The S2 guy tried to do that after the scores were leaked. He was basically ignored.

The S2 people will say a good score on the test does not indicate the QB will be good. But a bad score on the test will tell you the QB will not be good. So it supposedly will filter out some bad QBs. But with no raw data, how can anyone outside the S2 circle of trust make these decisions? Ignore film. Ignore the workouts and interviews. This guy won't make it because he didn't play this video game well. It's ridiculous on its face.
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Do you have a link or something for me? I am a data analyst and am really interesting in this. The most I have found about the test is from here:

www.wsn.com

The S2 Cognition Test: What Is It, How Does It Work?

The S2 test replaced the now-out-of-date Wonderlic test, which was used to determine general intelligence.
www.wsn.com www.wsn.com

And here it says:

S2 also used a regression model to analyze 27 starting quarterbacks’ S2 scores related to their performance. They found that the S2 score equaled 28.7% of their career passer rating, which was significantly higher than other common tests like college completion percentage (13.5%) and Wonderlic scores (0.01%).
While the minds behind the S2 are confident in the test, founder Brandon Ally said “to take some of those [results] with a grain of salt.”

So basically, when they calculate a regression model 28.7% of the passer rating can be explained with the S2 score. That means, that there usually is at least a small correlation between the two. But like I said before, correlation is not causation and it could also be because of something else. And also, these models are pretty finicky, adding or removing other variables can massively change that number as well - that's why they say to take some results with a grain of salt. And furthermore:

A poor S2 score does not mean that a player cannot become great in the league, but it does mean that teams have the right to be hesitant about their future.

So the S2 score can be an indicator, but I guess that should be way below game film and measurements.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Slowick better draw up a gameplan that involves stacking his receivers for quick hit slant game. 3-Step drop or Shotgun and let the receivers do the damage. No doubt the Steelers will be in blitz mode, so it’s imperative to scrap the run game early and hope the quick hit pass game can slow down the defense. This game could come down to FG’s.
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I've been wondering what he'll come up with to keep CJ from getting killed Sunday. I'm hoping it ends up being a defensive effort on both sides and CJ managing to hit a couple of big plays.
 
DocBar said:
I've been wondering what he'll come up with to keep CJ from getting killed Sunday. I'm hoping it ends up being a defensive effort on both sides and CJ managing to hit a couple of big plays.
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He’s going to get killed because they have an elite pass rusher and a solid pass rusher
 
This is all my own thoughts without any proof either way. The S2 people hold Brock Purdy up as an example of using the S2 to find a diamond in the rough which on the face of it seems true. My question is why out of the 15 or 16 teams that had the test results not 1 of them took a chance on a QB with outstanding results in the 6th or 7th round.

I'm assuming that any team that is paying for the service is tracking how all QBs with high scores are doing once they get in the league. It is what I would do. The fact that they all passed on a high scoring QB available in the lower rounds tell me that the actual people that are getting these results have some reason not to put that much stock in them.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Slowick better draw up a gameplan that involves stacking his receivers for quick hit slant game. 3-Step drop or Shotgun and let the receivers do the damage. No doubt the Steelers will be in blitz mode, so it’s imperative to scrap the run game early and hope the quick hit pass game can slow down the defense. This game could come down to FG’s.
Click to expand...
Tank Dale should feast!
 
LikeMike said:
Do you have a link or something for me? I am a data analyst and am really interesting in this. The most I have found about the test is from here:

www.wsn.com

The S2 Cognition Test: What Is It, How Does It Work?

The S2 test replaced the now-out-of-date Wonderlic test, which was used to determine general intelligence.
www.wsn.com www.wsn.com

And here it says:

S2 also used a regression model to analyze 27 starting quarterbacks’ S2 scores related to their performance. They found that the S2 score equaled 28.7% of their career passer rating, which was significantly higher than other common tests like college completion percentage (13.5%) and Wonderlic scores (0.01%).
While the minds behind the S2 are confident in the test, founder Brandon Ally said “to take some of those [results] with a grain of salt.”

So basically, when they calculate a regression model 28.7% of the passer rating can be explained with the S2 score. That means, that there usually is at least a small correlation between the two. But like I said before, correlation is not causation and it could also be because of something else. And also, these models are pretty finicky, adding or removing other variables can massively change that number as well - that's why they say to take some results with a grain of salt. And furthermore:

A poor S2 score does not mean that a player cannot become great in the league, but it does mean that teams have the right to be hesitant about their future.

So the S2 score can be an indicator, but I guess that should be way below game film and measurements.
Click to expand...

People put stock in the Wonderlic for decades, despite it having not much real impact. It was a test based on debunked ideas, like IQ. Plus it had all of the cultural biases of most standardized tests, which muddied the waters.

From the outside looking in S2 is about 90% a marketing gimmick.

I imagine, like the Wonderlic, that players and agents will start to refuse to take it. Does nothing to help you, and can only hurt you. Plus, constant "leaks" did nothing but undermine the Wonderlic.
 
LikeMike said:
I think a lot of people had a wrong idea about the S2 - and I even believe that the people, that have designed it, were actively trying to put that right. A test like this won't tell you, who will be a good or bad QB. It is all about probabilities. There are a lot of reasons, why the results of a test may vary from day to day - and there are a lot of reasons, why some players may be good at it and some may be bad, that don't have much to do with them playing QB. I do believe that there is a correlation between the S2 result and the success at QB, but that doesnt mean, that this is a clear indicator - it just means that a player with a higher S2 score is more probable to also have a better career.

But this still doesn't mean, that there is causation. There may be other reasons that lead to people being good at S2 - maybe most NFL players are enthusiastic video game players. And maybe being a video game player leads to having advantages at the S2 score. Maybe most people use the same part of the brain you need for the S2-test that they also use for reading coverages - and maybe other players use another part of the brain.

So the S2 score is probably a good piece of the puzzle for QB evaluation - but it should never been more than a small part.
Click to expand...
Yeah we tend to go to all or nothing position in many things. Someone will say most good QBs are round 1 draft picks. Instantaneously, someone shouts Brady. Doesn't make claim untrue, just he is outlier.
CJ Stroud the outlier.

Perhaps instead of playing video games, CJ was watching game film?

Will To'o To'o help us get to 2-2¿

Will Pierce pierce the end zone?
Will Pitre get his own dish?

I cannot take back control of my typing finger!!
 
FuzzyLogic said:
Since my son-in-law is British - and knowing he knew very little about American religious culture, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not jump down your throat and accuse you of being a Stroud hater.

I'm going on the assumption you didn't mean Stroud is behaving like Watson, you were just comparing how Stroud talks "gospel" at the podium the same way DW, and others, do.

I'm not speaking of Stroud specifically here, to my knowledge he hasn't ever done anything against his faith and what he believes, but in general in the US you will hear politicians, actors, presidents, ceo's whoever, speak some form or religious "gospel" (you know, "thank you for the award!, Can't believe I won!, first I would like to thank God and my family), while after the speech doing whatever nefarious actions that their God would frown upon (not all, but a lot).

And yes I believe most sensible people in this country, hear that from certain individuals and shake their head in disbelief, but it is a very common thing to do in this country so I wouldn't hold Stroud in a negative light just because of that, and you probably shouldn't either (just advise, I can't tell you what to believe about anyone or anything).

Hope that helps clarify.

Mods - went a bit into religion to try and answer, what I believe was an honest question from someone on the board not familiar with US customs. If it's wrong, move or delete as you see fit. If it get's me a warning etc. - I understand.
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Honestly, some people are just that way. It's not a thing they do just because they are now making big money and are in the spotlight. It's how they were raised. My wife's family is very rooted in faith and the church. And at times they definitely sound like some athletes do. My wife is not as rooted as her parents and she doesn't do the, let's call it "belief talk" like her parents. Because she doesn't feel comfortable with it. So, basically it comes down to culture, up bringing and how comfortable someone feels. Just my opinion but it is what I have seen.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Slowick better draw up a gameplan that involves stacking his receivers for quick hit slant game. 3-Step drop or Shotgun and let the receivers do the damage. No doubt the Steelers will be in blitz mode, so it’s imperative to scrap the run game early and hope the quick hit pass game can slow down the defense. This game could come down to FG’s.
Click to expand...
I think scrapping the run game early is the worst thing you can do. I don't believe that with Watt and Highsmith the Steelers have to blitz often. Abandoning the run game allows them to pin their ears back and the entire front to give it their all in pursuit of the QB. You have to mix it up and slow down the rush by making them defend the run and worry about screens and draws as well as a quick hitting pass game. The running game will also pull the safeties up.
 
JB said:
I think scrapping the run game early is the worst thing you can do. I don't believe that with Watt and Highsmith the Steelers have to blitz often. Abandoning the run game allows them to pin their ears back and the entire front to give it their all in pursuit of the QB. You have to mix it up and slow down the rush by making them defend the run and worry about screens and draws as well as a quick hitting pass game. The running game will also pull the safeties up.
Click to expand...
This game is perfect to feature Beck in a two back set. You can run or pass from this set. Lot's of possibilities present themselves with this formation.
 
I’ve never seen so many oline injuries in my life. No GM could fully prepare for this. He did his best with trades, waiver wire, etc. but if Deculous plays, expect carnage unless they affix a TE to his side to tag team.

Given the circumstances…Gonna be tough guys, but I still have a sliver of hope…and the sliver is on the right arm of Stroud. Without him, this game is a rout. With him, I think they can stay in the hunt, and if the stars align even pull off a big upset.
 
Number19 said:
This game is perfect to feature Beck in a two back set. You can run or pass from this set. Lot's of possibilities present themselves with this formation.
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Beck has been a really important addition for the team and especially for Stroud. His movement often helps alert CJ to what the defense is doing, plus he's been a really good pass protector for him as well.
 
welsh texan said:
Agreed on your first paragraph.

I’m genuinely interested to know, and please I don’t mean any offence to those who are religious on this board, but devout Christianity is not the norm in the UK, so when I see him quote the gospel at the podium and whatnot it comes across as frankly insincere to hear a young person speaking like that, do you suspect he is doing that as part of an act of what?

You certainly can’t go about talking about all that religious twaddle and then go around behaving like Deshaun Watson either in your personal life or your business dealings and keep any semblance of dignity can you?
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Sure you can and it's not just a matter of Christianity/religion. People constantly talk out of both sides of their mouth or say one thing and do another regardless of faith.

Example: athlete being interviewed,

"Love you mom!"

Mom watching the interview: " I love you to baby but I haven't heard from you since you signed that big a-- contract."
 
LikeMike said:
Do you have a link or something for me? I am a data analyst and am really interesting in this. The most I have found about the test is from here:

www.wsn.com

The S2 Cognition Test: What Is It, How Does It Work?

The S2 test replaced the now-out-of-date Wonderlic test, which was used to determine general intelligence.
www.wsn.com www.wsn.com

And here it says:

S2 also used a regression model to analyze 27 starting quarterbacks’ S2 scores related to their performance. They found that the S2 score equaled 28.7% of their career passer rating, which was significantly higher than other common tests like college completion percentage (13.5%) and Wonderlic scores (0.01%).
While the minds behind the S2 are confident in the test, founder Brandon Ally said “to take some of those [results] with a grain of salt.”

So basically, when they calculate a regression model 28.7% of the passer rating can be explained with the S2 score. That means, that there usually is at least a small correlation between the two. But like I said before, correlation is not causation and it could also be because of something else. And also, these models are pretty finicky, adding or removing other variables can massively change that number as well - that's why they say to take some results with a grain of salt. And furthermore:

A poor S2 score does not mean that a player cannot become great in the league, but it does mean that teams have the right to be hesitant about their future.

So the S2 score can be an indicator, but I guess that should be way below game film and measurements.
Click to expand...

That's a pretty non-technical article and uses loose statistical language. There's a bit in the which does intruige me though.

From your quote: "So basically, when they calculate a regression model 28.7% of the passer rating can be explained with the S2 score."

This sounds very much like they are trying to describe the r-squared (R² or the coefficient of determination) of their regression model. I suspect they don't use that terminology directly because those who know what they're talking about will simply laugh it off.

R-squared, by the way, is usually defined as something like: a statistical measure in a regression model that determines the proportion of variance in the dependent variable that can be explained by the independent variable.

Very, very similar to the language in the article.

If that 28.7% really is r-squared (0.287), then it's an awful model with basically no value.

As the old axiom goes: all models are wrong, some are useful.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
I’m waiting for the first player to execute this move….and Caleb could be the first to successfully pull it off.

Instead of returning to USC, Caleb signs with an USFL/XFL team for a season. He’s now a professional football player looking to change leagues as an UFA.

USFL players have already successfully done this by being invited by a team for a tryout and then signed as an UFA if he shows he can compete.

That would be the easiest way for him to control his future. If the NFL attempted to block this….Caleb may have decent case.
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I thought that the NFL maintains the draft rights to a player regardless of where that player goes until the player had gone through the draft process and ended up as an undrafted free agent.

Help me with example of player leaving college, makes himself unavailable for draft and signs with USFL.
 
Dejaview said:
Why would your “I told you so” crowd say I told you so if there weren’t any others beforehand saying I told you so before CJ even threw his first NFL pass? Other than that this season is an open book for I told you so so’ers.
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Are so so'ers only so so in fandom?
 
Corrosion said:
I'm not at all happy that Mulugheta represents Stroud, he's been a problem for several franchises over the past handful of years and more than one of those issues were after signing big contracts.

The problem with discussing Mulugheta is one particular posters very loud and very poorly worded expression of displeasure with the situation ..... it taints the entire conversation to the point where people defending Strouds choice of representation aren't being honest because of it.

I don't think any of us are happy that Stroud chose Mulugheta to represent him. Mulugheta is a problem for the league.
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For me it would be interesting if CJ does a Laramie Tunsil and negotiates his own contracts 3 years at a time.
 
JB said:
I think scrapping the run game early is the worst thing you can do. I don't believe that with Watt and Highsmith the Steelers have to blitz often. Abandoning the run game allows them to pin their ears back and the entire front to give it their all in pursuit of the QB. You have to mix it up and slow down the rush by making them defend the run and worry about screens and draws as well as a quick hitting pass game. The running game will also pull the safeties up.
Click to expand...

2nd and 3rd and long will have the Steelers defense in feast mode as well. Use the pass to set up the run…..wouldn’t hurt.
 
badboy said:
I thought that the NFL maintains the draft rights to a player regardless of where that player goes until the player had gone through the draft process and ended up as an undrafted free agent.

Help me with example of player leaving college, makes himself unavailable for draft and signs with USFL.
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They would if a team drafts him and he forgoes playing for them and picks a different option.

What if he doesn’t declare for the NFL draft and signs with a USFL team after the draft?

Why play for the USFL versus another season at USC….one makes him a contractually paid professional athlete while the other maintains his CFB amateur status.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
Slowick better draw up a gameplan that involves stacking his receivers for quick hit slant game. 3-Step drop or Shotgun and let the receivers do the damage. No doubt the Steelers will be in blitz mode, so it’s imperative to scrap the run game early and hope the quick hit pass game can slow down the defense. This game could come down to FG’s.
Click to expand...

Steelers are giving up 151 yards per game on the ground. If the Texans can’t get the run game going against them they’ve got some serious problems.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
They would if a team drafts him and he forgoes playing for them and picks a different option.

What if he doesn’t declare for the NFL draft and signs with a USFL team after the draft?

Why play for the USFL versus another season at USC….one makes him a contractually paid professional athlete while the other maintains his CFB amateur status.
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I wonder why no one has ever tried that before in the NFL that I know of? It would seem that everyone thought to be around two or below would do that.
 
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