We were 3-4 when Watson was hurt...

[Hervoyel]

Another thing I don’t understand is that Kubiak and BoB have almost identical accomplishments as coaches of this franchise. Two division titles, two playoff appearences, with Kubiak having a better playoff record by one game. In Kubiak’s last year here, much of the talk on the board was very similar to what you see now.

Sure, Kubiak had better offensive numbers after we got Schaub, but BoB had the #1 offense with Watson. Why is Kubiak looked at so favorably in comparison to BoB?

Early in the season, and in previous seasons, everybody was complaining about BoB’s inability to adjust to the talent he has on offense. In comes Watson and the type of plays he called changed and it resulted in some of the best offensive production we have ever seen here. Maybe, it’s more to do with talent than coaching? That sure seems to have been the case at QB.

I’m rambling, but it’s very difficult for me to understand why there is such a push to be rid of BoB when we’ve seen this before. The real issue is the same issue that held Kubiak back.

The guy (DW4) played 6.5 games this year. That does not make BoB & Kubiak "the same". Without Watson BoB's offense has been (in points and yards) 14th/17th in 2014, 21st/19th in 2015, and 28th/29th in 2016. That's a steady yearly decline. I'm pretty sure without Watson they're probably 31st/31st in the league with Savage starting. He's generating something like 7 points a game on offense since he came back and nothing in the first game if my memory is right. Wouldn't surprise me for a second if we were at the bottom statistically with Savage under center.

Kubiak's offense in 2013 even with all those injuries and an unready Case Keenum under center was like 31st/11th in points/yards. We weren't scoring but we were still moving the ball better than any of BoB's teams ever has.... Except for when DW4 stepped on the field.

2012 8th/7th
2011 10th/13th
2010 9th/3rd
2009 10th/4th
2008 17th/3rd
2007 12th/14th
2006 (With David Carr) 28th/28th (again "With David Carr")

They're nothing alike. Nothing at all. You have seasonal shifts caused by factors like injuries but generally you see the Texans under Kubiak getting better on offense every year. The thing that always held them back was a defense that was incapable of getting off the field. He had us in the top ten scoring teams four years in a row and it just started paying off when Wade Phillips showed up and started showing our defense how to nut up to other teams. until then Kubiak was coaching an offensive machine that couldn't stop anybody.

With O'Brien's Texans it's been a team that couldn't do a thing on offense being held up above .500 by RAC's defense.

Ultimately it comes down to one thing to me. Offensive ineptitude and that's been O'Brien's calling card not the magic you've seen out of Watson. If BoB knew that was in the can wouldn't he have opened that can on day one and spent preseason getting ready to open that can? Why did we spend all off season pretending that Savage was going to be our QB? Why did this team's offense fall off a cliff when O'Brien got here? Don't assume that because we're scoring BoB's somehow calling magic plays that he can't call when Savage is in (and if he's got magic plays that Savage can't run why in the **** is Savage on this team at all?). DW4 makes those happen when he escapes, extends plays, and starts playing sandlot football. That won't happen forever. When he comes back teams are going to be planning on stopping him. Film catches everybody just like Time does.

It's tempting to blame Rick for all this but Rick didn't do all this. Not by himself. The team got worse and either Rick Smith forgot what little he knew about drafting or the guy in his ear has been giving him **** advice (mostly) on offense for four years.

 

[steelbtexan]

That's not true. Not at all. This GM can work with a coach who knows what he wants because he's done it in the past. He worked with Gary Kubiak and then Gary Kubiak & Wade Phillips and all he did was assemble a very talented roster of players that we'd be kicking the **** out of this division with if we had them right now in their prime. This GM has very real limitations but when he's got good coaches who know what they are doing he's found good players for those coaches. There's a pattern here that can easily be parsed for information we don't have one who makes what happen. Sure it's not perfectly accurate but if you look at this team from the moment Charlie Casserly walked out of that building you see that unless there's a good talent judge in the room Rick sucks but when there is one around he's done much better.

Like I said in my previous post, he's not an asset and he could absolutely be improved upon but since that's not going to happen we've got to have a strong head coach who knows what he's doing and knows player talent. Without one we got nothing at all.

Kubiak was also arguably the only HC (granted there have only been two) who was for all practical purposes Rick Smith's equal. McNair can say what he wants about everyone contributing to decisions being made but we all know that if he wants something it happens and after that it's downhill to Rick and then to OB. If Rick Smith and Bill O'Brien are truly equals when it comes to having a say in talent that would come as a complete shock to me.

Kubiak had far more say in personnel than BOB does.

With that said why would any org want a GM like you described Ricky as?

It's my belief that after Kubiak left Ricky took over as the lead guy in acquiring personnel. Atleast that's what BOB's said in past PC's.

 

[TexansSeminole]

So, you’re basically saying that Kubiak got more yards but equally as low points before he got a competent QB. How is that different from BoB? The only difference is that Kubiak had years with a competent QB, whereas BoB has had 6.5 games, as you stated.

Ultimately, it didn’t matter because we had roster deficiencies that were impossible to overcome, assuming the goal is a championship.

 

[TheKDog]

The guy (DW4) played 6.5 games this year. That does not make BoB & Kubiak "the same". Without Watson BoB's offense has been (in points and yards) 14th/17th in 2014, 21st/19th in 2015, and 28th/29th in 2016. That's a steady yearly decline. I'm pretty sure without Watson they're probably 31st/31st in the league with Savage starting. He's generating something like 7 points a game on offense since he came back and nothing in the first game if my memory is right. Wouldn't surprise me for a second if we were at the bottom statistically with Savage under center.

Kubiak's offense in 2013 even with all those injuries and an unready Case Keenum under center was like 31st/11th in points/yards. We weren't scoring but we were still moving the ball better than any of BoB's teams ever has.... Except for when DW4 stepped on the field.

2012 8th/7th
2011 10th/13th
2010 9th/3rd
2009 10th/4th
2008 17th/3rd
2007 12th/14th
2006 (With David Carr) 28th/28th (again "With David Carr")

They're nothing alike. Nothing at all. You have seasonal shifts caused by factors like injuries but generally you see the Texans under Kubiak getting better on offense every year. The thing that always held them back was a defense that was incapable of getting off the field. He had us in the top ten scoring teams four years in a row and it just started paying off when Wade Phillips showed up and started showing our defense how to nut up to other teams. until then Kubiak was coaching an offensive machine that couldn't stop anybody.

With O'Brien's Texans it's been a team that couldn't do a thing on offense being held up above .500 by RAC's defense.

Ultimately it comes down to one thing to me. Offensive ineptitude and that's been O'Brien's calling card not the magic you've seen out of Watson. If BoB knew that was in the can wouldn't he have opened that can on day one and spent preseason getting ready to open that can? Why did we spend all off season pretending that Savage was going to be our QB? Why did this team's offense fall off a cliff when O'Brien got here? Don't assume that because we're scoring BoB's somehow calling magic plays that he can't call when Savage is in (and if he's got magic plays that Savage can't run why in the **** is Savage on this team at all?). DW4 makes those happen when he escapes, extends plays, and starts playing sandlot football. That won't happen forever. When he comes back teams are going to be planning on stopping him. Film catches everybody just like Time does.

It's tempting to blame Rick for all this but Rick didn't do all this. Not by himself. The team got worse and either Rick Smith forgot what little he knew about drafting or the guy in his ear has been giving him **** advice (mostly) on offense for four years.

Exactly.

I'm amazed Bob hasn't Incorporated some of the Watson plays with Savage. No not the designed QB runs obviously but a lot of the play action stuff. Schaub was slow and ran play action just fine.

Instead obrien goes back to his system that hasn't worked for 4 years

 

[steelbtexan]

That's not true. Not at all. This GM can work with a coach who knows what he wants because he's done it in the past. He worked with Gary Kubiak and then Gary Kubiak & Wade Phillips and all he did was assemble a very talented roster of players that we'd be kicking the **** out of this division with if we had them right now in their prime. This GM has very real limitations but when he's got good coaches who know what they are doing he's found good players for those coaches. There's a pattern here that can easily be parsed for information we don't have one who makes what happen. Sure it's not perfectly accurate but if you look at this team from the moment Charlie Casserly walked out of that building you see that unless there's a good talent judge in the room Rick sucks but when there is one around he's done much better.

Like I said in my previous post, he's not an asset and he could absolutely be improved upon but since that's not going to happen we've got to have a strong head coach who knows what he's doing and knows player talent. Without one we got nothing at all.

Kubiak was also arguably the only HC (granted there have only been two) who was for all practical purposes Rick Smith's equal. McNair can say what he wants about everyone contributing to decisions being made but we all know that if he wants something it happens and after that it's downhill to Rick and then to OB. If Rick Smith and Bill O'Brien are truly equals when it comes to having a say in talent that would come as a complete shock to me.

Kubiak had far more say in personnel than BOB does.

With that said why would any org want a GM like you described Ricky as?

It's my belief that after Kubiak left Ricky took over as the lead guy in acquiring personnel. Atleast that's what BOB's said in past PC's.

If Wade was all McNair, that’s not a ringing endorsement of Kubiak.

Look at your first paragraph here. You could switch some names and accurately describe this season. Serious injuries, made to go to a QB that the staff had not showed any confidence in, down year, etc. Enough went wrong that the deficiencies on the team couldn’t be masked even against subpar teams.

Eye (iPhone won’t let me type it correctly) didn’t want Kubiak fired. Eye like/liked Kubiak and perhaps with that comment, you are missing my overall point. It’s not so much about the coach but about what the coach is provided, which is a team with serious deficiencies at one or more position groups. It’s been that way for every season with two different head coaches.

Back with Kubiak, DBs were a huge issue. Until they signed Joseph, we had some of the worst DB groups in the league. Cover LBers were a huge problem during his entire tenure and much of BoB tenure. Remember how many crossing routes were completed on those teams in those years? Remember how many wide open TEs we saw. Most of the games we were blown out in were due to this deficiency. It was impossible to beat the good teams with those guys as starters.

WRs were a big issue under Kubiak. Outside of AJ and Daniels, we didn’t have many pass catching threats and again, against good teams, it was a big problem. It was that way for many years.

There have always been position groups that have held the team back and it didn’t matter so much about the coaching.

My memory isn’t messed up at all. If anything, eye see correlation in issues that require a detailed memory of why each team failed. Since we hired Kubiak and Wade, coaching was never the main issue with our teams.

Great post,

It's the talent level and the guy building the roster that has failed 2 different regimes and counting. All of the other stuff doesn't matter.

 

[TexansSeminole]

Exactly.

I'm amazed Bob hasn't Incorporated some of the Watson plays with Savage. No not the designed QB runs obviously but a lot of the play action stuff. Schaub was slow and ran play action just fine.

Instead obrien goes back to his system that hasn't worked for 4 years

You want Savage to run a read option PA out of the pistol or shotgun? That’s a lot of what Watson was doing.

 

[Mr teX]

Exactly.

I'm amazed Bob hasn't Incorporated some of the Watson plays with Savage. No not the designed QB runs obviously but a lot of the play action stuff. Schaub was slow and ran play action just fine.

Instead obrien goes back to his system that hasn't worked for 4 years

Except, Schaub had this guy named Arian Foster teams had to kind of pay attention to. No defense is scared of Lamar Miller. The only reason the play action boot worked with Watson and Miller was b/c Watson was a capable runner himself and Miller had gaping holes he could run through b/c the end had to stay home with Watson.

 

[TheKDog]

You want Savage to run a read option PA out of the pistol or shotgun? That’s a lot of what Watson was doing.

No, I'd like some play action and some misdirection. Some creativity. We did that a lot with Watson and now we're back to straight drop backs and iso routes alternated with Lamar Miller up the middle.

Not only is it hard to execute and results in few big plays, it also gets our receivers and TEs killed.

 

[steelbtexan]

Coaching absolutely matters. His job is more than drawing X's and O's on a chalkboard and calling time outs - both of which I think O'Brien isn't good at. Job 1 is to teach and improve the players and that certainly isn't happening. It's not just a lack of talent, players are actually getting worse under O'Brien. Our position coaches aren't up to the necessary standard, and O'Brien has effectively destroyed our veteran presence on offense that can aid those coaches.

You can talk about Smith all you want, but until you have a coaching staff to improve and utilize players to be their best, it doesn't matter who the GM is.

This didn't appear to be true with Watson at QB.

 

[TheKDog]

Except, Schaub had this guy named Arian Foster teams had to kind of pay attention to. No defense is scared of Lamar Miller. The only reason the play action boot worked with Watson and Miller was b/c Watson was a capable runner himself and Miller had gaping holes he could run through b/c the end had to stay home with Watson.

Kubiak ran his system and made Baltimore top 10 offense in one year with Justin Forsett.

 

[Mr teX]

Fans love offense and its funny how optimism swings depending on how good offensively the teams are whether or not fans realistically know the team is going anywhere or not.

Overall, the Rockets haven't really had all that much more success in the last 10-15 years than the Texans have had & fans know they aren't going anywhere as long as GS & SA are in tact................. But because they score alot of points & make splash FA signings... homers continue to give Morey a pass.

A couple of weeks ago the Texans bandwagon was full....... we were scoring 30 pts woooooo!!!...never mind that we were still losing more than we were winning. Now that the offense has gone back in the shiter, fans are trying to run everyone out of town...this player sucks, that player sucks....

 

[steelbtexan]

Filo looks to be leaking confidence. He appears to know that he sucks. That’s going to lead to worse play no matter the position. Why the staff continues to play him is something that needs to be looked at. His career is over.

The FAs we brought in on the OL sucked from day 1. Every single one of them. Maybe they are playing worse now than when they first arrived, I’m not sure, but they were terrible from the jump. The only competent DBs we have are 1st round picks. Hal has a moment every once in awhile but consistently reads plays incorrectly and he’s not a good tackler.

XSF has sucked from day 1.

Speaking of the DB's who decided that it was a great idea to let Bouye go and extend Hal? Whoever made those decisions is an idiot.

 

[Mr teX]

Kubiak ran his system and made Baltimore top 10 offense in one year with Justin Forsett.

Justin Forsett was/is a tougher runner than Lamar Miller.

 

[Mr teX]

XSF has sucked from day 1.

Speaking of the DB's who decided that it was a great idea to let Bouye go and extend Hal? Whoever made those decisions is an idiot.

It wasn't an either/or signing. From what i understand, they offered Buoye...Jax just offered him more. Furthermore, the money Hal recieved likely had no impact on what they offered

 

[TheKDog]

Justin Forsett was/is a tougher runner than Lamar Miller.

Forsett had one year over 1,000 yards.

The year with kubiak.

 

[Mr teX]

Forsett had one year over 1,000 yards.

The year with kubiak.

Doesn't change the fact that he runs harder than Lamar Miller has ever run. Furthermore he knew the system and teams were more concerned with Flacco than him. Forsett took advantage of teams being more concerned about Flacco than him and he surprised some people.

 

[steelbtexan]

It wasn't an either/or signing. From what i understand, they offered Buoye...Jax just offered him more. Furthermore, the money Hal recieved likely had no impact on what they offered

I agree,

Looking back on it, the 2 biggest failures this offseason were,

1. Not fixing the OL, and yes this could've been done.
2. Not re- signing Bouye, Ricky ha/has the cap room.

Also, I think the Hal/Prosch re-signings were mistakes.

 

[TheKDog]

Doesn't change the fact that he runs harder than Lamar Miller has ever run. Furthermore he knew the system and teams were more concerned with Flacco than him. Forsett took advantage of teams being more concerned about Flacco than him and he surprised some people.

In other words, kubiak made his system work with different types of players.

 

[TexansSeminole]

Doesn’t help the running game when we go to a more power approach and the OL is consistently getting pushed backwards.

 

[steelbtexan]

Fans love offense and its funny how optimism swings depending on how good offensively the teams are whether or not fans realistically know the team is going anywhere or not.

Overall, the Rockets haven't really had all that much more success in the last 10-15 years than the Texans have had & fans know they aren't going anywhere as long as GS & SA are in tact................. But because they score alot of points & make splash FA signings... homers continue to give Morey a pass.

A couple of weeks ago the Texans bandwagon was full....... we were scoring 30 pts woooooo!!!...never mind that we were still losing more than we were winning. Now that the offense has gone back in the shiter, fans are trying to run everyone out of town...this player sucks, that player sucks....

Atleast the Rockets are trying to win a championship despite the Warriors/Spurs juggernaughts. They added Paul by trade this offseason as well as Tucker/Luc. Tell me what did the Texans do in FA this offseason?

 

[xtruroyaltyx]

Fans love offense and its funny how optimism swings depending on how good offensively the teams are whether or not fans realistically know the team is going anywhere or not.

Overall, the Rockets haven't really had all that much more success in the last 10-15 years than the Texans have had & fans know they aren't going anywhere as long as GS & SA are in tact................. But because they score alot of points & make splash FA signings... homers continue to give Morey a pass.

A couple of weeks ago the Texans bandwagon was full....... we were scoring 30 pts woooooo!!!...never mind that we were still losing more than we were winning. Now that the offense has gone back in the shiter, fans are trying to run everyone out of town...this player sucks, that player sucks....

First, regarding the rockets they have had more success and the nba is a different beast because of the lack of parity. In the nfl you can turn your team around quicker and despite that the rockets have had more success still.

Second, it’s not just about the success over past year, it’s also about team outlook going forward. Even with GS in the nba I’d give the rockets a better chance at winning a title this year than the Texans who are not even going to make the playoffs.

Look at the Astros....they hadn’t had a whole lot of success in ast seasons either but there was optimism surrounding them because of future outlook.

Even though the Texans were losing every other game with Watson there was tons of optimism because we finally had good play at the hardest position in sports to fill. Not only that but even in the losses against premiere teams and qbs he went toe to toe with them and one or two plays in our favor at the end changes the results.

I don’t really get your point here. Yeah we were scoring a lot of points. We were getting great qb play.

 

[Mr teX]

In other words, kubiak made his system work with different types of players.

Sure if you choose to look at it that way.....of course there's always those years here in houston when Kubiak didn't have Arian, Schaub and AJ in the line up &...the offense was trash. go look and see what the offense was doing when Arian wasn't in the line up... Even with those guys his offense always got shut down when we needed it most anyway.

 

[steelbtexan]

Fans love offense and its funny how optimism swings depending on how good offensively the teams are whether or not fans realistically know the team is going anywhere or not.

Overall, the Rockets haven't really had all that much more success in the last 10-15 years than the Texans have had & fans know they aren't going anywhere as long as GS & SA are in tact................. But because they score alot of points & make splash FA signings... homers continue to give Morey a pass.

A couple of weeks ago the Texans bandwagon was full....... we were scoring 30 pts woooooo!!!...never mind that we were still losing more than we were winning. Now that the offense has gone back in the shiter, fans are trying to run everyone out of town...this player sucks, that player sucks....

Atleast the Rockets are trying to win a championship despite the Warriors/Spurs juggernaughts. They added Paul by trade this offseason as well as Tucker/Luc. Tell me what did the Texans do in FA this offseason?

BTW, I wasn't deluding myself eariler this yr when they were scoring 30 pts per game. I said at the time this is a talent deficient/bad football team. Now all of the warts/neglect is out in the open for all to see. Some want to blame this all on BOB and I'm not saying he's without fault or doesn't need to be fired. That's taking the easy way out for those that dont really keep up with the team on a daily basis. But this is a talent issue and until they get somebody who's better at evaluating talent then you can expect more of what we've seen over the past 12 yrs.

It actually may be a good thing to not have Watson saving the day this season, because it may finally force the McNair's to change the way they go about doing business.

 

[Mr teX]

I agree,

Looking back on it, the 2 biggest failures this offseason were,

1. Not fixing the OL, and yes this could've been done.
2. Not re- signing Bouye, Ricky ha/has the cap room.

Also, I think the Hal/Prosch re-signings were mistakes.

Fans are notoriously selfish and unrealistic. In the midst of it all, Fans didn't like suffering through 3 straight 100 loss seasons with the Astros either. But as we sit here as the current world series champs poised for at least the next 2-4 seasons to potentially lock down another championship, everything's all good.

Fans are currently poo pooing not having a 1st and 2nd in the 2018 draft....and they didn't like what we had to give up to move up in the 1st and get Watson...& they didn't like the trade of long time LT stallwart Duane Brown. But these moves are setting us up for a much brighter future than the temporary moves you're talking about. & if all these moves culminate in a SB run, fans won't be tripping at all.

 

[Mr teX]

Atleast the Rockets are trying to win a championship despite the Warriors/Spurs juggernaughts. They added Paul by trade this offseason as well as Tucker/Luc. Tell me what did the Texans do in FA this offseason?

BTW, I wasn't deluding myself eariler this yr when they were scoring 30 pts per game. I said at the time this is a talent deficient/bad football team. Now all of the warts/neglect is out in the open for all to see. Some want to blame this all on BOB and I'm not saying he's without fault or doesn't need to be fired. That's taking the easy way out for those that dont really keep up with the team on a daily basis. But this is a talent issue and until they get somebody who's better at evaluating talent then you can expect more of what we've seen over the past 12 yrs.

It actually may be a good thing to not have Watson saving the day this season, because it may finally force the McNair's to change the way they go about doing business.

Make no mistake about it, Morey and Rockets are trying to keep butts in the seats first given that the NBA season is much longer at 82 games than the NFL. & nothing puts butts in the seats faster than quick, flashy splash signings like Dwight Howard, Chris Paul....If he were really trying to win a championship, he'd be building for the future with homegrown talent instead of chasing after the latest FA.

 

[steelbtexan]

Fans are notoriously selfish and unrealistic. In the midst of it all, Fans didn't like suffering through 3 straight 100 loss seasons with the Astros either. But as we sit here as the current world series champs poised for at least the next 2-4 seasons to potentially lock down another championship, everything's all good.

Fans are currently poo pooing not having a 1st and 2nd in the 2018 draft....and they didn't like what we had to give up to move up in the 1st and get Watson...& they didn't like the trade of long time LT stallwart Duane Brown. But these moves are setting us up for a much brighter future than the temporary moves you're talking about. & if all these moves culminate in a SB run, fans won't be tripping at all.

I didn't have a problem with the Astros losing are the rebuild because I had faith in the person responsible for the rebuild. I have no faith in the person responsible for the Texans rebuild after 12 yrs of observation. If the Texans as an org is really trying to rebuild at all. In short there's no long term vision in the Texans org. IMHO

 

[steelbtexan]

Make no mistake about it, Morey and Rockets are trying to keep butts in the seats first given that the NBA season is much longer at 82 games than the NFL. & nothing puts butts in the seats faster than quick, flashy splash signings like Dwight Howard, Chris Paul....If he were really trying to win a championship, he'd be building for the future with homegrown talent instead of chasing after the latest FA.

He very well may do that with Tillman as the new owner.

Morey was following out Les' vision.

 

[Texansballer74]

Bill O'Brien won't be the head coach of the Houston Texans. If we lose out you can best believe OB will get the boot right up the crack of his no coaching you know what. Watson success was mainly because of his elusiveness and high IQ.

 

[JB]

It actually may be a good thing to not have Watson saving the day this season, because it may finally force the McNair's to change the way they go about doing business.

This may be the most unrealistic comment you've ever made

 

[steelbtexan]

Bill O'Brien won't be the head coach of the Houston Texans. If we lose out you can best believe OB will get the boot right up the crack of his no coaching you know what. Watson success was mainly because of his elusiveness and high IQ.

Had nothing to do with BOB designing an offense that was tailored to Watson's strengths?

BTW, I want BOB gone because he didn't have the balls to go for the win against the Seahawks/Pats.

 

[Hervoyel]

If Wade was all McNair, that’s not a ringing endorsement of Kubiak.

Look at your first paragraph here. You could switch some names and accurately describe this season. Serious injuries, made to go to a QB that the staff had not showed any confidence in, down year, etc. Enough went wrong that the deficiencies on the team couldn’t be masked even against subpar teams.

Eye (iPhone won’t let me type it correctly) didn’t want Kubiak fired. Eye like/liked Kubiak and perhaps with that comment, you are missing my overall point. It’s not so much about the coach but about what the coach is provided, which is a team with serious deficiencies at one or more position groups. It’s been that way for every season with two different head coaches.

Back with Kubiak, DBs were a huge issue. Until they signed Joseph, we had some of the worst DB groups in the league. Cover LBers were a huge problem during his entire tenure and much of BoB tenure. Remember how many crossing routes were completed on those teams in those years? Remember how many wide open TEs we saw. Most of the games we were blown out in were due to this deficiency. It was impossible to beat the good teams with those guys as starters.

WRs were a big issue under Kubiak. Outside of AJ and Daniels, we didn’t have many pass catching threats and again, against good teams, it was a big problem. It was that way for many years.

There have always been position groups that have held the team back and it didn’t matter so much about the coaching.

My memory isn’t messed up at all. If anything, eye see correlation in issues that require a detailed memory of why each team failed. Since we hired Kubiak and Wade, coaching was never the main issue with our teams.

Kubiak spent his first four years here demonstrating that he had no grasp of the defensive side of the ball. None. Dude was letting buddies play DC. A more knowledgeable owner probably would have stepped in sooner. A GM who hadn't been hand picked by that head coach probably would have gotten into the owners ear quicker. McNair and Smith let that go on for years and the whole time players careers were slowly being played out. It was definitely a mistake to let it go that long.

Absolutely this season resembles that season. I'm not arguing that O'Brien is a problem based on the record so far this season. Not even remotely. I'm arguing it based on everything that took place from the moment he got here until the start of this season. What we're seeing now is just the end result of this and again, I'd like the Texans to upgrade their GM position. I don't think Rick adds dick to that front office. He's a "Yes Man" in the worst sense of the word but I think he drafts players based on the input he gets from the coach (and we're speculating about that). Look at the drafts since O'Brien has been here with Crennel as his DC. The defensive picks have shown some insight. I'm not talking about guys like Clowney or Kevin Johnson. Those are first rounders. I mean guys like Reader, Watkins, Covington, and Cunningham. We've had far fewer full-on trash picks on the defensive side than we have on the offense since O'Brien's regime took over and that's Romeo Crennel's voice coming through. Nix was a bust but he was also an attempt to address the "Vince Wilfork" need. Didn't work and not everything will but still more often than not the offense has in recent years been where we throw our picks away. a QB, RB's, and WR's that are just ******* trash. Savage, Blue (until finally this preseason we saw signs of life), Prosch, Strong, Mumphery, Hilliard, Braxton Miller, Ervin, That's like 9 picks of useless motherfuckers right there.

 

[Hervoyel]

Had nothing to do with BOB designing an offense that was tailored to Watson's strengths?

BTW, I want BOB gone because he didn't have the balls to go for the win against the Seahawks/Pats.

You really think he's "designed" anything? Seriously? Much less the crazy-cool **** that DW4 has been doing? I don't buy it anymore. I think O'Brien's not even the guy behind the curtain anymore much less the Wizard we all thought we saw.

 

[Belichick Fan]

ill O'Brien was a mistake. If I thought for a second that the Houston Texans listened to what any of us said and acted on those statements I'd feel even worse about wanting him here but instead I pretty much have to concede that I was wrong, he is just another Bill Belichick "minion" with nothing special at all about himself.

Coaches often struggle in their first gig. Belichick has mixed results in Cleveland. Josh McDaniels had a poor stint in Denver, but his work as OC deserves a second chance if he wants one. Not every coach is Bill Parcells in his first try.

I am not saying you are wrong about OB. I am saying it is not clear. OB might be a smart football mind who just needs more experience and/or a better FO situation. He might also be a schmuck who learned a good system and coached the GOAT.

This GM can work with a coach who knows what he wants because he's done it in the past. He worked with Gary Kubiak

And Gary Kubiak is a way better coach than the vast majority of HCs right now. Where are you going to find your next Kubiak that is an obvious improvement? You might hire the next Pagano. Are the chances of getting the next Kubiak that much higher than the chances of OB improving? I am not sure.

 

[steelbtexan]

You really think he's "designed" anything? Seriously? Much less the crazy-cool **** that DW4 has been doing? I don't buy it anymore. I think O'Brien's not even the guy behind the curtain anymore much less the Wizard we all thought we saw.

I'm not saying he's the greatest, but he definitely changed the offense to fit DW4's skillset. Something a good HC would do and he wanted to start DW4 the 1st game but was talked out of it.

 

[TexansSeminole]

You’ll find as many useless offensive picks before BoB took over at HC.

 

[Hervoyel]

Kubiak had far more say in personnel than BOB does.

With that said why would any org want a GM like you described Ricky as?

It's my belief that after Kubiak left Ricky took over as the lead guy in acquiring personnel. Atleast that's what BOB's said in past PC's.

I know he did (Of course he did. When a power vacuum appeared Rick moved to fill it as fast as he could and only surrendered as much power once BoB arrived as McNair made him give up) which is why you gotta have a HC that a) has a voice in that room, and b) knows what he's looking at. The Defensive players we've taken have been mostly solid picks. Crennel knows what he's doing because all he's responsible for is defense. I'm positive he's got a voice here. O'Brien I think also gets heard (albeit not as much as Kubiak was) and what he asks for more often than not seems to turn to ****.

Why would anyone want him? Do you think he's the only GM in the league like that? I don't. Never underestimate the appeal of a friendly, smiling "Yes Man" to a powerful person like an NFL owner. They are apex predators who fear nothing and no one. They are leaders in a business that it is literally impossible to screw up in. If they fail they make money hand over fist. Bob McNair has Rick Smith to verbally jerk him off whenever he wants and handle the money/spin the stories/blame the mistakes on. He's not a sharp football man. He's not obsessed with bringing a Lombardi here. If that was his priority and kept him up at night he'd have done things far differently even if he didn't necessarily do them correctly. He's a business man and he's making a profit. Rick Smith is fine for that.

At this point things are deeply fucked up because you aren't going to be able to get rid of Rick Smith and Rick Smith is never going to give up enough power to make any head coach hired while he's here successful. McNair will have to see that and understand it before it gets fixed and that's less likely every year.

 

[steelbtexan]

I know he did (Of course he did. When a power vacuum appeared Rick moved to fill it as fast as he could and only surrendered as much power once BoB arrived as McNair made him give up) which is why you gotta have a HC that a) has a voice in that room, and b) knows what he's looking at. The Defensive players we've taken have been mostly solid picks. Crennel knows what he's doing because all he's responsible for is defense. I'm positive he's got a voice here. O'Brien I think also gets heard (albeit not as much as Kubiak was) and what he asks for more often than not seems to turn to ****.

Why would anyone want him? Do you think he's the only GM in the league like that? I don't. Never underestimate the appeal of a friendly, smiling "Yes Man" to a powerful person like an NFL owner. They are apex predators who fear nothing and no one. They are leaders in a business that it is literally impossible to screw up in. If they fail they make money hand over fist. Bob McNair has Rick Smith to verbally jerk him off whenever he wants and handle the money/spin the stories/blame the mistakes on. He's not a sharp football man. He's not obsessed with bringing a Lombardi here. If that was his priority and kept him up at night he'd have done things far differently even if he didn't necessarily do them correctly. He's a business man and he's making a profit. Rick Smith is fine for that.

At this point things are deeply fucked up because you aren't going to be able to get rid of Rick Smith and Rick Smith is never going to give up enough power to make any head coach hired while he's here successful. McNair will have to see that and understand it before it gets fixed and that's less likely every year.

Great Post and you've said what I've been saying since 2010 and people have poo poo'ed these thoughts as McNair's a hands off owner/he really wants to win 1st and foremost/I'm a hater etc...

I see McNair as more of an opportunist/carpetbagger.

If McNair dies I wonder where the org goes then? BOP said he heard that McNair's cancer has returned.

 

[TexansSeminole]

The main argument here is whether or not BoB is held back by the roster composition or by his own shortcomings, or some combination. The sad part is that we all know RS isn’t going anywhere, so we are forced into hoping that a new HC changes things.

I’m not really arguing so much for BoB, but that until we go after the real problem, the coaching isn’t going to improve enough to make a real difference. It’d be a shame to see another HC move on and have success elsewhere.

 

[Belichick Fan]

The main argument here is whether or not BoB is held back by the roster composition or by his own shortcomings, or some combination. The sad part is that we all know RS isn’t going anywhere, so we are forced into hoping that a new HC changes things.

I’m not really arguing so much for BoB, but that until we go after the real problem, the coaching isn’t going to improve enough to make a real difference. It’d be a shame to see another HC move on and have success elsewhere.

The thing that would be the biggest shame would be switching to a new HC that fail to help DW4 develop. I still think it would be a mistake to move on from OB for the lone reason of DW4's improvement from week 2 on. I admit this thought might be too "conservative", and it might be influenced by my schematic preferences.

I understand everyone's thought that "mediocre does not cut it".

 

[Hervoyel]

Exactly.

I'm amazed Bob hasn't Incorporated some of the Watson plays with Savage. No not the designed QB runs obviously but a lot of the play action stuff. Schaub was slow and ran play action just fine.

Instead obrien goes back to his system that hasn't worked for 4 years

This. Exactly this. Some of this stuff was working as late as last year when Savage came in and played. BoB needed to settle him down and would have him roll out into the flat. Can we just not do that anymore? Where's the crap he had Yates and Keenum doing a couple of years ago. Did he burn those pages to keep them from falling into enemy hands?

O'Brien is a fraud and always has been. In his first season here we were standing still until he began using crap we did the previous season under Kubiak. People were commenting on that as soon as it appeared. He basically rode Arian Foster's last season and Gary Kubiak's running game into a one game over .500 record and got credit for turning around the team. Then he kicked his QB to the curb, went out and signed a worse one, and started all over again.

 

[Hervoyel]

The thing that would be the biggest shame would be switching to a new HC that fail to help DW4 develop. I still think it would be a mistake to move on from OB for the lone reason of DW4's improvement from week 2 on. I admit this thought might be too "conservative", and it might be influenced by my schematic preferences.

I understand everyone's thought that "mediocre does not cut it".

At this point in time and acknowledging what TexansSeminole has already said (That Rick Smith isn't going anywhere, which we both agree on) I also agree with this. Flipping the guys coaching staff as he goes into his second year is a mistake. It would do more harm than good but it's going to happen at some point. Anyone with visions of Bill O'Brien and DW4 having some kind of Brady/Belichick run is fooling themselves. Next year will be a real revelation for us all. We can only hope it's not a bad one. Need to get on that OL problem as soon as free agency starts.

I'd also agree with another poster (Perki-Perk I think) who said that Smith seems to be learning on the job. He is I think getting a little more consistent. He's costing guys careers waiting for him to bring something to the table when it comes to talent but he is slowly getting better. We're just going to have to sit it out or walk away if we can't look anymore while it happens.

 

[Belichick Fan]

Exactly.

I'm amazed Bob hasn't Incorporated some of the Watson plays with Savage. No not the designed QB runs obviously but a lot of the play action stuff. Schaub was slow and ran play action just fine.

Instead obrien goes back to his system that hasn't worked for 4 years

This. Exactly this. Some of this stuff was working as late as last year when Savage came in and played. BoB needed to settle him down and would have him roll out into the flat. Can we just not do that anymore? Where's the crap he had Yates and Keenum doing a couple of years ago. Did he burn those pages to keep them from falling into enemy hands?

O'Brien is a fraud and always has been. In his first season here we were standing still until he began using crap we did the previous season under Kubiak. People were commenting on that as soon as it appeared. He basically rode Arian Foster's last season and Gary Kubiak's running game into a one game over .500 record and got credit for turning around the team. Then he kicked his QB to the curb, went out and signed a worse one, and started all over again.

Watson's success was predicated on his ability to avoid the pass rush. Brady can still have success with garbage O-line play by reading the coverage and throwing it before the pass rush gets to him.

I am not sure how OB could have schemed his way out of this one. He has a slow pocket passer who is inexperienced at reading NFL coverages and seems afraid to throw it into tight windows. Not sure how to have him succeed with garbage OL play. The play action stuff that Watson did was from shotgun and started out looking like a QB read option. Houston does not have a good enough running game to consistently threaten non-QB runs. If the defense does not respect the run, play actions just give the pass rush more time to kill your QB. OB is in a tough spot.

Lets hope he tries a different QB next week.

(edit: I don't want this post to sound too definitive. I am merely giving my take on it. I would love to hear more about why OB is not maximizing Savages potential)

 

[xtruroyaltyx]

Make no mistake about it, Morey and Rockets are trying to keep butts in the seats first given that the NBA season is much longer at 82 games than the NFL. & nothing puts butts in the seats faster than quick, flashy splash signings like Dwight Howard, Chris Paul....If he were really trying to win a championship, he'd be building for the future with homegrown talent instead of chasing after the latest FA.

Are you talking about tanking?

Rockets are not tanking as long as they have Harden. Get real.

 

[steelbtexan]

You’ll find as many useless offensive picks before BoB took over at HC.

At this point in time and acknowledging what TexansSeminole has already said (That Rick Smith isn't going anywhere, which we both agree on) I also agree with this. Flipping the guys coaching staff as he goes into his second year is a mistake. It would do more harm than good but it's going to happen at some point. Anyone with visions of Bill O'Brien and DW4 having some kind of Brady/Belichick run is fooling themselves. Next year will be a real revelation for us all. We can only hope it's not a bad one. Need to get on that OL problem as soon as free agency starts.

I'd also agree with another poster (Perki-Perk I think) who said that Smith seems to be learning on the job. He is I think getting a little more consistent. He's costing guys careers waiting for him to bring something to the table when it comes to talent but he is slowly getting better. We're just going to have to sit it out or walk away if we can't look anymore while it happens.

Improving?

Let's look at the record at the end of the yr to see how much improvement has been made. LOL

 

[steelbtexan]

Watson's success was predicated on his ability to avoid the pass rush. Brady can still have success with garbage O-line play by reading the coverage and throwing it before the pass rush gets to him.

I am not sure how OB could have schemed his way out of this one. He has a slow pocket passer who is inexperienced at reading NFL coverages and seems afraid to throw it into tight windows. Not sure how to have him succeed with garbage OL play. The play action stuff that Watson did was from shotgun and started out looking like a QB read option. Houston does not have a good enough running game to consistently threaten non-QB runs. If the defense does not respect the run, play actions just give the pass rush more time to kill your QB. OB is in a tough spot.

Lets hope he tries a different QB next week.

(edit: I don't want this post to sound too definitive. I am merely giving my take on it. I would love to hear more about why OB is not maximizing Savages potential)

You mean a QB that doesn't turn the ball over almost as many times as points he puts on the board?

 

[Mr teX]

Are you talking about tanking?

Rockets are not tanking as long as they have Harden. Get real.

Im not saying they are...but they probably should've once they got Harden.

 

[OptimisticTexan]

I posted in the off-season that we were more in rebuild mode now than at any point during OBs tenure. I think he's been given the green light to hit reset on his tenure here and that he's had that free pass because they were never able to give him a QB previously.

I also doubt the Texans org has any intention of giving him a lame duck year either. I think he gets a 1 year extension this offseason and they take their lumps next season also.

I don't see how they are going to address the OL in that timeframe however. With no high picks, desperate need at both tackle positions and at least 1 guard position. And a weak FA class to too it off.

They need get themselves a great TE and invest heavily on D to beat the shortfall. Hope Davenport improves dramatically.

It's a huge number of ifs they are relying on to be relevant next season even. Even when we have our 1st and 2nd rounders in 19 it typically takes time to develop OL, especially OT.

We're literally going to eat up that window to give DW an Oline before his high $ contract starts to hit and end up like the Colts with Luck if they don't get a miracle.

Texans are in a right pickle atm.

You sure about that extension....from what I hear, RS is going to hold his breath and stomp around in circles until McNair lets him hire his favorite coach, Lovie Smith.

 

[Belichick Fan]

You really think he's "designed" anything? Seriously? Much less the crazy-cool **** that DW4 has been doing? I don't buy it anymore. I think O'Brien's not even the guy behind the curtain anymore much less the Wizard we all thought we saw.

I think DW4 has been running a EP offense with RPO & zone-read option mixed in. The entire point of EP is to be flexible enough to accommodate a huge variety of play types. I have recognized the Watson & the Texans using route combinations that the Patriots run. Watson used a route concept no huddle system at Clemson that appears to share similarities with EP.

This is just my take: I spend a bunch of time re-watching Patriots film each weak, and don't do the same for the Texans. I re-watched the Watson vs. Pats games multiple times and did play breakdowns of Watson vs. Pats coverage. I made my account soon after this game. I was excited that OB finally found a QB good enough to run the spread EP system and wanted to discuss coming offensive explosion.

 

[banned1976]

At this point in time and acknowledging what TexansSeminole has already said (That Rick Smith isn't going anywhere, which we both agree on) I also agree with this. Flipping the guys coaching staff as he goes into his second year is a mistake. It would do more harm than good but it's going to happen at some point. Anyone with visions of Bill O'Brien and DW4 having some kind of Brady/Belichick run is fooling themselves. Next year will be a real revelation for us all. We can only hope it's not a bad one. Need to get on that OL problem as soon as free agency starts.

I'd also agree with another poster (Perki-Perk I think) who said that Smith seems to be learning on the job. He is I think getting a little more consistent. He's costing guys careers waiting for him to bring something to the table when it comes to talent but he is slowly getting better. We're just going to have to sit it out or walk away if we can't look anymore while it happens.

Agree but that's usually not something the Texans do. They wait until the second and third wave of FA's until they jump in the pool. Except this past offseason when they didn't even dip their toes in the water. Also, the best offensive lineman projected to enter FA is Nate Solder (10+ million this year) and then there's not much quality behind him - he himself isn't elite but will get paid like he is.

Something usually happens to a team when it loses a lot more in FA than they gain. We're seeing it.

 

[Hervoyel]

I think DW4 has been running a EP offense with RPO & zone-read option mixed in. The entire point of EP is to be flexible enough to accommodate a huge variety of play types. I have recognized the Watson & the Texans using route combinations that the Patriots run. Watson used a route concept no huddle system at Clemson that appears to share similarities with EP.

This is just my take: I spend a bunch of time re-watching Patriots film each weak, and don't do the same for the Texans. I re-watched the Watson vs. Pats games multiple times and did play breakdowns of Watson vs. Pats coverage. I made my account soon after this game. I was excited that OB finally found a QB good enough to run the spread EP system and wanted to discuss coming offensive explosion.

If that's the case then it leads me right back to the question I can't get out of my head which is "If Savage is only capable of running the Romper-Room version of what O'Brien wants to do then why hang on to him for 4 years and try to start the season with him?"

He's been through an impressive number of QB's, some of which are out there right now with jobs on other teams and yet the guy he kept is the one who can't run any of the plays that don't start with your thumb in your mouth? And he chose to go with that guy and nobody else behind his starter?

It really boggles the mind. He watches the games. I know he does because that's his job and yet this is where we ended up at QB? We're always here at QB to be honest with O'Brien. He gives one guy starter reps, pulls him and starts another, signs somebody off the street who he cut in the preseason, it goes on and on.... I just can't see a pattern in it other than flailing around in desperation trying to find something that's right in front of his face. That's what it mostly looks like right now. Signing McGloin, kicking him to the curb, bringing in Grandpa Moses (What? Testaverde wouldn't return our calls?). Just goofy moves following more goofy moves.